Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny discussion

[Warsie]

So, the beginning of the second bloody valentine war. Djribil reveals that Coordinators were behind Junius Seven's fall. The people of Earth are all mad, and war breaks out.

But something weird happens? Western Eurasia secedes, for some odd reason. IIRC, the Anime says that the Western Eurasians are tired of being drafted/sent into camps. However, Western Eurasia was hit horribly by Junius Seven and wouldn't they be angry at PLANT? Also, before Junius Seven hit, the Eurasian Federation seemed to be a nice place, with little Alliance military presence.

There's a bunch of contradictory things, in the beginning Earth is all mad at PLANT, yet after the first battles of the second war, Eurasia falls apart. Yes, Eurasia is more diverse than the Atlantic Federation which stays loyal, but the fall of Junius 7 united them for the beginning of the second war, and they were united against PLANT in the first war.

Another thing: The people of the Eurasian Federation do not have as much of a problem with Coordinators. The Fall of Junius 7, again would anger them, but it's not seen and it seems that all of Europe (save Russia, and some of the rest of Eastern Europe and central Eurasia stay Alliance) the U.K. is part of the Atlantic Federation.

Also, another weird thing? How does the U.K. and Ireland end up with the Atlantic Federation rather than the Eurasian Federation? Any theories on this, given the distance and such. Yes, the US and UK have a strong link but doesn't it seem weird that a nation is like that, one portion several thousand miles from the rest of it in this time?

And I forgot. The Casualty rate during both wars.
It seems that early (based on a novel) in the first war, the Alliance forces took heavy losses, but it's unknown of ZAFT's losses. Given the first few battles, it seems that it was a stalemate, with the objective (like at the Battle of Yggdrasil or Endymion) either being destroyed, of one side giving up (Battle of Nova). The Eurasian Federation seems to take decent losses of its' Tank carriers over time, but it replenishes it I believe.

The Atlantic Federation keeps much of its' forces safe, but there are times of losses, like at Endymion where both forces get pwnt badly.

Closer to the end of the war: I wonder how many died when Panama fell, but supposedly the Atlantic Federation transferred much of its' military from JOSH-A to Greenland or Iceland, its' new HQ. The Eurasian Federation took enough losses for the balance to be in the Atlantic Federation' power.

How badly did the Second Battle of Jachin Due affect O.M.N.I. Supposedly half of the space fleet and its' main lunar base was destroyed (in a horrible way, I might add) how much was taken out by ZAFT fleets, instead of GENESIS? How much did the O.M.N.I. damage ZAFT? It's clear that at the end of the war, both sides have depleted fleets and forces.

But the second battle: 2 years later, the Earth Forces have a rebuilt fleet? How is the people of Earth's popular support/faith in their military, seeing that much of their fleet was destroyed in the last few days of the war, however were they only Atlantic Federation or Eurasian Federation troops, or both killed at Jachin Due.

At the begining of the second war, an entire Earth Alliance fleet is wiped out. How does this affect the war, how big do you think O.M.N.I. is that it can lose fleets like that.

And also, when Durandal uses Requiem to destroy Arzachel, how much Earth forces do you think survived.

Sorry if this doesn't make too much sense.

[Ritterin Sophia]

You're overthinking SEED/Destiny, just forget it ever happened and watch some UC...

[FOG3]

Which isn't much better, especially in that department. Actually all Gundam is stupid like that CCA, UC, Wing, etc. and that's before we get into the mechs fighting at point blank range, and the uber alles mecha. The original Macross, Nadesico and others at least handle their material correctly. Gundam can't seem to go anywhere without the authors having to pull out the sledgehammers, and have the characters being seriously touched in the head.

UC was basically a constant:
The Feddies are scum, Zeon isn't that bad in comparison, oh crap let's make them do eviiil things that utterly screw themselves over in the process to normalize things again, *insert annoying brats with character shields that make Heero's look like a red shirts doing stupid crap that saves the day*, spice with people going psycho just because. Rinse and repeat.

[Warsie]

You're overthinking SEED/Destiny, just forget it ever happened and watch some UC...

yeah, I srsly need to watch the Old Mobile Suit Gundam, i never saw it all the way, only when it came on CN before 9/11.

But some part of GS are bad-ass. I really liked it.

[Black Admiral]

But something weird happens? Western Eurasia secedes, for some odd reason. IIRC, the Anime says that the Western Eurasians are tired of being drafted/sent into camps. However, Western Eurasia was hit horribly by Junius Seven and wouldn't they be angry at PLANT?

At the same time, they got involved in the last war at the Atlantic Federation's behest and gained nothing from it but a severe ass-kicking - understandably they'd be iffy about getting into another of the A. Federation's wars.

Closer to the end of the war: I wonder how many died when Panama fell, but supposedly the Atlantic Federation transferred much of its' military from JOSH-A to Greenland or Iceland, its' new HQ. The Eurasian Federation took enough losses for the balance to be in the Atlantic Federation' power.

Panama was probably not a good thing for the Atlantic Federation - they lost a lot of their main force units, as well as the bulk of the Strike Daggers they had in formed units and with trained pilots. Certainly, they seemed pretty worried about ZAFT regaining the strategic initiative after that debacle.

How badly did the Second Battle of Jachin Due affect O.M.N.I. Supposedly half of the space fleet and its' main lunar base was destroyed (in a horrible way, I might add) how much was taken out by ZAFT fleets, instead of GENESIS? How much did the O.M.N.I. damage ZAFT? It's clear that at the end of the war, both sides have depleted fleets and forces.

ZAFT's problem was probably more manpower than material - they can produce all the ships and mobile suits they want, but without the personnel to man them there's no point, and they have a much lower population base to draw from than the EA.

And the vast majority of the EA fleet's casualties at Jachin seem to've come from GENESIS rather than the ZAFT fleet, although I don't think there's been a detailed breakdown anywhere.

But the second battle: 2 years later, the Earth Forces have a rebuilt fleet? How is the people of Earth's popular support/faith in their military, seeing that much of their fleet was destroyed in the last few days of the war, however were they only Atlantic Federation or Eurasian Federation troops, or both killed at Jachin Due.

Yeah, that's been bothering me as well - the EAF, in addition to expanding their fleet, seems've replaced all their older design warships with the new linear-catapult fitted ones, not to mention getting on with widescale employment of their third MP mobile suit design - and all that in addition to building the Requiem cannon+the Daedalus lunar base, and Heaven's Base in Iceland to replace JOSH-A. Just seems the slightest bit silly.

At the begining of the second war, an entire Earth Alliance fleet is wiped out. How does this affect the war, how big do you think O.M.N.I. is that it can lose fleets like that.

That was more of a taskforce than a fleet IIRC - certainly, much smaller than the main force units engaging ZAFT at the same time.

[Warsie]

At the same time, they got involved in the last war at the Atlantic Federation's behest and gained nothing from it but a severe ass-kicking - understandably they'd be iffy about getting into another of the A. Federation's wars.

But the Eurasian Federation took decent damage, and it seemed that the Eurasians got very angry. Not to mention how the Atlantic Federation got pwnt in the last stages of the war. And how the Earth Alliance had an advantage in the second war: More Mobile Suits, and the entire Earth was behind the Atlantic Federation.

And it was Western Eurasia (except the British Isles) and some of Arabia who seceded, only. And was the beatdown so bad that the seceding areas would gladly accept ZAFT involvement?

Panama was probably not a good thing for the Atlantic Federation - they lost a lot of their main force units, as well as the bulk of the Strike Daggers they had in formed units and with trained pilots. Certainly, they seemed pretty worried about ZAFT regaining the strategic initiative after that debacle.

based on the Manga, most of the new strikes at the time were heading to reinforce Panama. When Panama fell, Azrael had the fleet turn and attack Or instead. There were few Daggers, but it was a surprise so ZAFT took decent losses. The alliance was afraid that the Lunar Base would run out of supplies, and a few days after Orb's fall, the Alliance re-took Victoria.

ZAFT's problem was probably more manpower than material - they can produce all the ships and mobile suits they want, but without the personnel to man them there's no point, and they have a much lower population base to draw from than the EA.

Yeah, supposedly their population was only 24 million (200,000 times 10, then times 12 is 24,000,000 million); there are 120 PLANTs (well, 119).

Another weird thing. ZAFT does not draft, their entire military is voluntary and new. How were the officers trained. I know it's a militia, so it's not so strong but the new officers didn't have much experience.

And the vast majority of the EA fleet's casualties at Jachin seem to've come from GENESIS rather than the ZAFT fleet, although I don't think there's been a detailed breakdown anywhere.

Okay.

Yeah, that's been bothering me as well - the EAF, in addition to expanding their fleet, seems've replaced all their older design warships with the new linear-catapult fitted ones,

They actually upgraded the surviving warships to carry catapults and increased ir.

not to mention getting on with widescale employment of their third MP mobile suit design -

I believe that was using materials leaked from Orb , right? That's wow ZAFT was able to build Minerva and their 4 Gundams.

and all that in addition to building the Requiem cannon+the Daedalus lunar base, and Heaven's Base in Iceland to replace JOSH-A. Just seems the slightest bit silly.

Heaven's Base was supposedly built during the first war(based on the Manga, but the Manga says Greenland is the new base)-that's where the Earth Alliance had their summit to invade Orb, and where Azrael gave them the N-Jammer canceller technologies.

That was more of a taskforce than a fleet IIRC - certainly, much smaller than the main force units engaging ZAFT at the same time.

Okay, thank you,

[Black Admiral]

But the Eurasian Federation took decent damage, and it seemed that the Eurasians got very angry. Not to mention how the Atlantic Federation got pwnt in the last stages of the war. And how the Earth Alliance had an advantage in the second war: More Mobile Suits, and the entire Earth was behind the Atlantic Federation.

However, the Eurasian Federation would most likely have been more concerned with fixing the damage they sustained during the "Break the World" incident, rather than wasting time on an ill-conceived military adventure.

And it was Western Eurasia (except the British Isles) and some of Arabia who seceded, only. And was the beatdown so bad that the seceding areas would gladly accept ZAFT involvement?

If the behaviour of Atlantic Federation forces in Gulnahan is any indication, probably (seeing as how they decided on the "mass reprisals" method of counter-insurgency work).

based on the Manga, most of the new strikes at the time were heading to reinforce Panama. When Panama fell, Azrael had the fleet turn and attack Or instead. There were few Daggers, but it was a surprise so ZAFT took decent losses. The alliance was afraid that the Lunar Base would run out of supplies, and a few days after Orb's fall, the Alliance re-took Victoria.

From what I can recall of the timeframes given elsewhere, the assault on Orb aupposedly took place about a month after Panama - and I don't think even Azrael'd be stupid enough to try a completely unplanned assault on Orb (though, given his behaviour at Jachin, it wouldn't surprise me).

Yeah, supposedly their population was only 24 million (200,000 times 10, then times 12 is 24,000,000 million); there are 120 PLANTs (well, 119).

Actually, their population would be closer to 30 million - PLANT populations are, from Junius Seven, somewhere close to 250,000 people.

Another weird thing. ZAFT does not draft, their entire military is voluntary and new. How were the officers trained. I know it's a militia, so it's not so strong but the new officers didn't have much experience.

They do have some form of academy for pilots, but I don't think a ZAFT OCS/Sandhurst-equivalent's ever been mentioned, which is certainly odd (unless they're identifying commanders solely by in-field performance, which strikes me as a damn silly method of doing so).

They actually upgraded the surviving warships to carry catapults and increased ir.

At least for the modified Nelson-class design, there were some structural mods - the removal of two of the ventral autocannon turrets, for one. And if you're going to tell me the Destiny-era Agamemnons were modified from the originals, I have beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

I believe that was using materials leaked from Orb , right? That's wow ZAFT was able to build Minerva and their 4 Gundams.

IIRC the Windam was designed as a high-performance "ZAKU buster" mobile suit; certainly, there's no real similarities between it and Orb/ZAFT's latest designs (beyond it and the ZAKU sharing the ability to use modular weapons packs).

Heaven's Base was supposedly built during the first war(based on the Manga, but the Manga says Greenland is the new base)-that's where the Earth Alliance had their summit to invade Orb, and where Azrael gave them the N-Jammer canceller technologies.

Built, sure, but fully fitted out? It's a possibility, certainly, especially given that they were planning on blowing up JOSH-A.

[Sidewinder]

I have to second the "You're overanalyzing 'Gundam SEED Destiny'" line. Hell, I like the series because it at least has sympathetic characters, and I found most of the CE background-- especially military training-- bullshit.

Sunrise should SERIOUSLY consider hiring some military consultants BEFORE they begin animating a single cel of their next 'Gundam' series. If Konami can afford one for 'Metal Gear Solid', Sunrise can. That way, they can have heroes who rely on tactical proficiency to win battles instead of silly 'Dragonball Z' style power-ups. (Sadly, that's what going into SEED mode is.)

[General Zod]

I have to second the "You're overanalyzing 'Gundam SEED Destiny'" line. Hell, I like the series because it at least has sympathetic characters, and I found most of the CE background-- especially military training-- bullshit.

Sunrise should SERIOUSLY consider hiring some military consultants BEFORE they begin animating a single cel of their next 'Gundam' series. If Konami can afford one for 'Metal Gear Solid', Sunrise can. That way, they can have heroes who rely on tactical proficiency to win battles instead of silly 'Dragonball Z' style power-ups. (Sadly, that's what going into SEED mode is.)

If Gundam designers were to hire and listen to military consultants, they'd never get the series off the ground and all the mecha would be replaced with tanks.

[Warsie]

However, the Eurasian Federation would most likely have been more concerned with fixing the damage they sustained during the "Break the World" incident, rather than wasting time on an ill-conceived military adventure.

They did, the OMNI forces responded very quickly based on Gundam Seed: Stargazer. IIRC, Eurasia might've not even have much of a space fleet now; likely the entire Lunar Base and fleets are operated by the Atlantic Federation, considering the AF built the base first. There could be other OMNI fleets stationed there, though.

Anyway, the Atlantic Federation would, being hateful of Coordinators it is, might've conducted the entire Battle of Aprillius itself, as the Eurasians would not go with genocide. Would the Eurasians follow the President of the Atlantic Federation's orders in war, or would they only answer to the Alliance Secretary-General?

Then again, were the (non-nuclear attack force) OMNI fleet heading to Aprilius aware about nuking PLANT? Blue Cosmos might not even claim to be secret in the Alliance; they are probably very open about their feelings. The original battle of Junius Seven was originally not supposed to be mass murder; however Blue Cosmos did influence OMNI to send an AF task force and secretly load nukes.

And there's the ZAFT mobile suits attacking everything in sight after Junius Seven fell, seen in GS: Stargazer. As the Seirans said, the pictures of the GINNs would (and did) infuriate most of the Earth's population; the massive anti-ZAFT protests and cries for revenge heard around the world proved that. The President of the Atlantic Federation mentioned that Eurasia stood firm by the Atlantic Federation, and ZAFT said so itself.

But like I said, some of Eurasia (Europe except Russia/some of the other Eastern European nations and central Eurasia) seceded, much of it stayed loyal. Likely, Eurasia being as diverse is a heavily decentralized federation and it is easier (or less politically dangerous) to advocate secession; and not all of the federation agreed with the war.

And much of the damage was near the Equator.

If the behaviour of Atlantic Federation forces in Gulnahan is any indication, probably (seeing as how they decided on the "mass reprisals" method of counter-insurgency work).

I don't know why the Atlantic Federation would do that to naturals. I seriously don't know why, do you have a suggestion? But yeah, that would make sense.

From what I can recall of the timeframes given elsewhere, the assault on Orb aupposedly took place about a month after Panama - and I don't think even Azrael'd be stupid enough to try a completely unplanned assault on Orb (though, given his behaviour at Jachin, it wouldn't surprise me).

You're right. It's just that the Manga said that Azrael had his fleet turn towards Orb after he lost contact with Panama; and based on the battle, the Atlantic Federation has good contingency plans for everything

Actually, their population would be closer to 30 million - PLANT populations are, from Junius Seven, somewhere close to 250,000 people.

Okay.

They do have some form of academy for pilots, but I don't think a ZAFT OCS/Sandhurst-equivalent's ever been mentioned, which is certainly odd (unless they're identifying commanders solely by in-field performance, which strikes me as a damn silly method of doing so).

okay.

At least for the modified Nelson-class design, there were some structural mods - the removal of two of the ventral autocannon turrets, for one. And if you're going to tell me the Destiny-era Agamemnons were modified from the originals, I have beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Here's the source I was referring to. Yeah, if they did modify it; it would've been very hard to do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Spac ... ss_Carrier

IIRC the Windam was designed as a high-performance "ZAKU buster" mobile suit; certainly, there's no real similarities between it and Orb/ZAFT's latest designs (beyond it and the ZAKU sharing the ability to use modular weapons packs).

Okay, thank you.

Built, sure, but fully fitted out? It's a possibility, certainly, especially given that they were planning on blowing up JOSH-A.

sure.

[Warsie]

I have to second the "You're overanalyzing 'Gundam SEED Destiny'" line. Hell, I like the series because it at least has sympathetic characters, and I found most of the CE background-- especially military training-- bullshit.

Okay, maybe I am, but we're nerds .

Sunrise should SERIOUSLY consider hiring some military consultants BEFORE they begin animating a single cel of their next 'Gundam' series. If Konami can afford one for 'Metal Gear Solid', Sunrise can. That way, they can have heroes who rely on tactical proficiency to win battles instead of silly 'Dragonball Z' style power-ups. (Sadly, that's what going into SEED mode is.)

some of the space battles, at least the ones with Badgiruel have a bunch of interesting tactics/exploiting technology

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Sunrise should SERIOUSLY consider hiring some military consultants BEFORE they begin animating a single cel of their next 'Gundam' series.

I intensely disagree. The Gundam property merely needs to get back up to quality and return to its roots.

[Guardsman Bass]

I have to second the "You're overanalyzing 'Gundam SEED Destiny'" line. Hell, I like the series because it at least has sympathetic characters, and I found most of the CE background-- especially military training-- bullshit.

Sunrise should SERIOUSLY consider hiring some military consultants BEFORE they begin animating a single cel of their next 'Gundam' series. If Konami can afford one for 'Metal Gear Solid', Sunrise can. That way, they can have heroes who rely on tactical proficiency to win battles instead of silly 'Dragonball Z' style power-ups. (Sadly, that's what going into SEED mode is.)

If Gundam designers were to hire and listen to military consultants, they'd never get the series off the ground and all the mecha would be replaced with tanks.

Yeah, realism was never exactly the series' strongpoint. Still, you could probably use at least some advice from that area to develop some tactically interesting battles, even if you never touch some of the fundamentals (like the mecha, space stations).

Of course, hopefully that wouldn't consist of a consultant saying, "This is ridiculous! Just launch an asteroid at the bastards!"

[Sharp-kun]

The Gundam property merely needs to get back up to quality and return to its roots.

Yes. We need yet another OYW side story to further screw up continuity.

[Sidewinder]

The Gundam property merely needs to get back up to quality and return to its roots.

Yes. We need yet another OYW side story to further screw up continuity. :D

Personally, I'd prefer to see a sequel to 'G Gundam'. No more 'Pretty Soldier Sailor Sanc', no more 'Amuro the Zaku Slayer'. Bring in Hideo Kojima to direct it-- he should be free after 'Metal Gear Solid 4' is completed.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

God you're such a link whore.

[Ritterin Sophia]

There's a rumour for a new Gundam series, can't remember where the rumour came from, but it was an article from Gunpla about Gundam hinting it. If there is one, I'm hoping they'll either take F91 and turn it into the series it was supposed to be, or even better, Crossbone Gundam or possibly Advance of Zeta.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The Gundam property merely needs to get back up to quality and return to its roots.

Yes. We need yet another OYW side story to further screw up continuity.

Yeah yeah, I get it.

I agree with the sentiment to some degree, although the One Year War still has some possibilities for additional storytelling, it's pretty much overstuffed in terms of big new things.

What I meant was going back more towards what they were doing in the 1980s, with MSG, Zeta, ZZ, 0080, etc..., although that's really more wishful thinking because of the simple fact that things have changed in twenty years and anime is quite a different thing than it was back then.

UC is pretty much full between MSG and V Gundam, and too many AU series kind of flood things and seem rather derivative after a while.

But I do know one thing is clear, at least in my opinion, that Gundam shouldn't be taken away and made into something it isn't.

How about a UC series without any mobile suits in it? Something around the terms of what 0080 was?

[VF5SS]

How about a UC series without any mobile suits in it? Something around the terms of what 0080 was? ;)

That doesn't sell model kits. Haha.

And for fuck's sake Sidewinder, do you hate to bring your intense dislike of old Gundam into every thread? Go watch Votoms or something and stop being a drama whore about how the story of Amuro has raped your sensibilities.

[That NOS Guy]

That doesn't sell model kits. Haha.

Funny you mention that, I have 5 or 6 kits from that series

And for fuck's sake Sidewinder, do you hate to bring your intense dislike of old Gundam into every thread? Go watch Votoms or something and stop being a drama whore about how the story of Amuro has raped your sensibilities.

Alternatively we could just Brightslap his ass.

[VF5SS]

Well I mean that a UC series without Mobile Suits wouldn't sell kits. As character driven as 0080 is, there is still lots of continuity destroying Mobile Suits and gratuitous battles to sell models. Oddly enough, Gundam has progressed to a point where there is enough old material not in desirable kit form that they not make a series for a year and still have stuff to put out.

[Sharp-kun]

Crossbone Gundam or possibly Advance of Zeta.

No. What Gundam doesn't need is a story to be told again. I know what happens in Crossbone, I'd rather not have to watch a story I know again at the expense of something else.
Yes it would be nice if it was animated, but if they do that then that's something new not being done.

More AU's are fine if done right (as in G and X). A common thought I've seen on the net is that any new UC series will be awesome, just as its UC. What's to stop them doing a story where the 4 Victory 3 Gundam prototypes are stolen, and an angsty young newtype ends up thrust into the cockpit of the Liberty Gundam and ends up fighting his friend?

UC != automatic win.
AU != automatic fail.

[Ritterin Sophia]

More AU's are fine if done right (as in G and X). A common thought I've seen on the net is that any new UC series will be awesome, just as its UC. What's to stop them doing a story where the 4 Victory 3 Gundam prototypes are stolen, and an angsty young newtype ends up thrust into the cockpit of the Liberty Gundam and ends up fighting his friend?

It doesn't, but UC in general has a better track record than the AU. As for G, I want to watch mecha anime not Super Robot anime, X on the other hand is rather decent. I like UC not because it's UC, but because even the 'villains' are sympathetic, for example the pilots flying the Luggun in one of the earlier parts of Gundam, people like Ramba Ral, Aina Sahalin, Norris Packard, that tank commander from 08th MS, the Cyclops Team, Reccoa, Char Aznable, Lalah, Ple and Ple 2, Four, Rosamia. SEED had a total of ONE sympathetic villain in Andy, Destiny had a total of two.

[General Zod]

More AU's are fine if done right (as in G and X). A common thought I've seen on the net is that any new UC series will be awesome, just as its UC. What's to stop them doing a story where the 4 Victory 3 Gundam prototypes are stolen, and an angsty young newtype ends up thrust into the cockpit of the Liberty Gundam and ends up fighting his friend?

It doesn't, but UC in general has a better track record than the AU. As for G, I want to watch mecha anime not Super Robot anime, X on the other hand is rather decent. I like UC not because it's UC, but because even the 'villains' are sympathetic, for example the pilots flying the Luggun in one of the earlier parts of Gundam, people like Ramba Ral, Aina Sahalin, Norris Packard, that tank commander from 08th MS, the Cyclops Team, Reccoa, Char Aznable, Lalah, Ple and Ple 2, Four, Rosamia. SEED had a total of ONE sympathetic villain in Andy, Destiny had a total of two.

If you went to watch G Gundam expecting a non super robot anime show, then frankly you're dumb.

The best part of G is the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously and actually manages to do something relatively fresh with the Gundam franchise.

[Nerem]

If by 'relatively fresh' you mean 'ripped off of Fukuda's earlier classic, Cyber Formula, right down to Hyper Mode and turning gold', sure! Well, it wasn't a bad show, and had some fun things. I'm currently heavily enjoying SEED and SEED Destiny (Up until the overly rushed ending, UGH).

Actually, Gundam on the whole has a reason for close-range battles - especially UC Gundam, which has the Minovsky Particles, which reduce 'sensor' range to nil. So unless you want visual-only starfighter battles, or space tank battles... Mobile Suits aren't a bad idea.

It was nice to see in SEED Stargazer that tanks can indeed fuck over an MS...