What went wrong with the new trilogy?

[CaptHawkeye]

>snip<

This has needed to be said for a while. Yeah it's tough, but it's true really. The Matrix is one of my favorite movies (sequels, what sequels?) but when I tell people it's because of the action sequences and mostly likeable characters, they act like i've somehow commit some great infraction. Even when I tell them the plot made little sense and was so preachy and pretentious, paying any actual attention to it would have ruined the movie for me.

I like a complex story every now and then, preferably when it doesn't get in the way too much, isn't overly pretentious, and most of all, flows from the characters as best it can. (Que Xenosaga) The fact that EVERY fucking anime, video game, and sci fi movie has to be fucking Hamlet is annoying. Is it really so hard to just have a movie with big space battles, scantily clad android women, and a whole lot of things going boom without the "zomg subtext"?

[Stark]

It shouldn't be a surprise - but nerds have convinced themselves they're not like every other community. Just like macho guys, lonely housewives etc, nerds want movies to glorify how they see themselves, and make them feel like amazing things will happen to them and they'll show their bosses/the police/compeditors/etc just how amazing they really are!

Most fiction is like this - note all the 'new kid makes good', 'farm boy becomes king' shit throughout history - but nerds try to act like they're too intellectual for that, that they have the REAL drama that speaks to us about our very natures.

And isn't 'tap tap tap whoops I hacked the Pentagon, whoa chicks love my haxx0r skillz, also I am jesus'.

[CaptHawkeye]

Most fiction is like this - note all the 'new kid makes good', 'farm boy becomes king' shit throughout history - but nerds try to act like they're too intellectual for that, that they have the REAL drama that speaks to us about our very natures.

This is why Firefly is so popular with everyone. Plot, what plot? Just a bunch of people tryin to make their way in the 'verse. Why does it work? Because the characterization is strong, the scripting is genious, and the universe is interesting. Yeah their is a subplot involving River and Simon, how many times did it even come up during the series? The movie was its unvieling and it was still very limited and simple. The same logic can be applied to movies like Star Wars, and anime like Azumanga Daioh.

We need more stuff like this. Can you imagine if the Wachowski brothers had written Firefly? Mal would be an elite secret agent with a hidden past, The Alliance would actually be a top secret organization of alien gods controlling humanity, Serenity would be a former luxery liner with the hidden power of god, and River would be Jesus fucking Christ.

[Stark]

The characters would never have been the same - they were classic archetypes, and not 'bookish nerd rejected by all who secretly uses his Enormous Brain to show those teasing jocks who's best'.

[MKSheppard]

And I'm sorry Shep, but I read some of the early EU stuff and it's terrible.

Like what?

If they at least tried some research I might have had more sympathy - like holy shit, actually look at the ISD model etc.

The same can be said about whoever designed the warships in the Prequel.

Here's a big fucking questionmark nobody asked whoever designed them:

Why don't we see them 20 years later in the Rebellion's fleet, or in all the EU material like the X-Wing Games?

I mean let's be honest, at the end of the Clone Wars, a significant portion of all this machinery and weapons are going to become surplus and become a significant part of planetary defense forces, and whatever the Rebellion has.

A much better design archetype would be

40 Years Before ANH (The Phantom Menace)
Republic Cruiser (Precursor to Corellian Corvette)
Acclaimators/Venators (Precursor to the familar ISDs
ARC-170s (Precursor to the Z-95 and X-Wing Series)

20 Years Before ANH (AOTC/ROTS)
Victory Class Star Destroyers
Dreadnoughts
Z-95s
Republic Sienar TIE Fighters (the very first mk 1 models, it's implied that the TIEs in ANH are Mark II or IIIs in the various literature)

This way, you can explain why all the Shiney new kit doesn't appear in the OT; or the EU, because it's two generational cycles behind, e.g. it's already passed into surplus, and been replaced in surplus by the generation which replaced it...

But no, Lucas instead had to shit over logic and reasoning so he could have ZOMG T3H SHINY!

[Stark]

Like what?

The sourcebooks for the RPG? I'm not getting into how stupid the novels are, but those RPG sourcebooks had some interesting fluff and some really stupid ideas, not to mention famously fucked scaling and game mechanics.

The same can be said about whoever designed the warships in the Prequel.

Why? Get this - EU is beholden to the movies, not the other way around. Frankly, asking why Venators aren't in X-wing is simply stupid: we might as well ask why Dreadnoughts aren't in X-wing either, since they're really old too.

You like the EU hardware, great. It's not in the prequels, too bad, so sad... and this ISN'T a big factor in the movies' success. They should have used the 'let's glue some more guns on' EU ships too, right?

[Darth Wong]

Here's a big fucking questionmark nobody asked whoever designed them:

Why don't we see them 20 years later in the Rebellion's fleet, or in all the EU material like the X-Wing Games?

Since we never see even a single core world's defense forces in the OT, or most of the Imperial starfleet, it's not really that hard to imagine.

[Ghost Rider]

Why should he Shep?

Why does the man who created this sandbox give a flying fuck what other people mucked about with. Sure, he could...but nothing says that he should and what makes it worse is they worked on presumptions. They didn't get it written in stone that VSDs, Z-95 or anything they created fit any Clone War vision of Lucas.

So when Lucas went "Fuck it, they are wrong.", that's his right given he still is lord and master of that universe and everyone else are just people playing in his sandbox.

[Darth Wong]

Besides, the EU designs were lame. I suspect that if Lucas actually liked them, he would have used them. I never liked them either. What the fuck was the Dreadnaught? The goddamned thing looks like a space dildo. And the VSD? A smaller version of the ISD ... with flaps sticking out the side? What's the purpose of the flaps? Oh yeah, to help it fly in atmosphere. Thank you, EU authors. And the Z95? An exact copy of an X-wing, but without the X-wing?

I might have been disappointed at the absence of those designs if I actually liked them in the first place.

[Stark]

Don't forget the 'even more a dong than a Dreadnought', the Corellian Gunship. Let's take some unused concept art and bolt a gun on every flat surface!

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps a better question is: what kind of movies would have made the geek fanboy community happy?

This hypothetical fanservice movie would have had EU references galore, that EU fans would love but nobody else would get. It would have all of the lame-ass EU designs in it, which the EU fans would love but nobody else would get. It would really emphasize how bad-ass everything is, with long, loving pan shots over starship hulls and slow-motion kick-ass Jedi-fu fighting sequences set to really dramatic music. It would have had moving, dramatic soliloquys set to ponderous music, like Babylon 5. It would have no appeal whatsoever to kids, because geeks wanted the film to remove all "kiddie" influences. The battle scenes would have been really long and involved, with heavy emphasis on tactics and technology. There would have been technobabble. Primitive special-effects would have been used because the purists like it that way.

Oh yeah, that would be a film the public would line up to see.

[Stark]

Don't forget instead of insecure teens, rigid monks and cagey politicians, you'd have to have supersmart geniuses that have no social skills, evil wizards, and a villian with deadly sunglasses who makes pithy postmodernist statements. As many post OT ideas as possible would have to be in there - not just EU, but nerdsphere stuff like 'lol the civilian contractors on DS' and such.

[Wicked Pilot]

There's nothing wrong with letting fan wank influence your movies, look at The Matrix sequels and how well they turned out.

[Starglider]

There's nothing wrong with letting fan wank influence your movies, look at The Matrix sequels and how well they turned out.

The Matrix sequels certainly sucked, but why do you chalk that up to 'the influence of fan wank'? AFAIK they were pretty much what the Wachowskis had in mind all along, just stretched out over two films instead of one (while the planned prequel got turned into the Animatrix instead). Or am I missing something?

[Jim Raynor]

Besides, the EU designs were lame. I suspect that if Lucas actually liked them, he would have used them. I never liked them either. What the fuck was the Dreadnaught? The goddamned thing looks like a space dildo. And the VSD? A smaller version of the ISD ... with flaps sticking out the side? What's the purpose of the flaps? Oh yeah, to help it fly in atmosphere. Thank you, EU authors. And the Z95? An exact copy of an X-wing, but without the X-wing?

I might have been disappointed at the absence of those designs if I actually liked them in the first place.

Damn right. I have no idea why the lack of WEG ships in the prequels is even being brought up as a criticism of "what went wrong" with those movies. In-universe it's not hard to imagine that all the prequel ships are still around since we don't see the vast majority of the galaxy in OT era sources. Out of universe I don't even want to see that crap.

Not to say that the movie designs were all perfect, but they at least display imagination and good aesthetics. Look at the Imperial fleets in TESB and ROTJ: uniform in their threatening dagger shapes, fufilling both function and form.

Then take a look at what WEG would have us believe to be the REAL Imperial Navy. The cool dagger-shaped Star Destroyers are still there, only now they're supposed to be rare high-end ships despite being the only things seen in the movies. Like you said, the Dreadnaught looks like a dildo. Then there are smaller dildos (Lancers, Carracks, Corellian Gunships), ugly undetailed box-things (Escort Carriers), and damn space cows (Star Galleons).

Can you guys imagine how horrible these disparate, ugly ships would show up together on screen?

[CaptHawkeye]

To be fair, a few designs like the "Strike" cruiser, and Modified Corvette look fine. As for "good" EU, KoTOR is a good example, but KOTOR places itself very far away from the timeline of the movies. X-Wing Alliance is also a fairly good example, while XWA still did a lot of absurd Rebelion wank, it did portray the Empire as a big, powerful enemy. Missions were often timed as to how fast you could accomplish your goals before a Star Destroyer showed up, at which point you were fucked. SDs were common also, being used in everything from minor security disturbances to massive space battles. IIRC, XWA had ONE mission where the Rebels launched a unified attack on a Star Destroyer. They weren't even intending to destroy it, they were just distracting it while the player did something else.

While in i'm not agreeing that the EU should be totally destroyed, much of it should indeed be burned, and stricter standards should be employed. It would be awesome if Lucasfilm could ask guys like Curtis Saxton to moderate the EU or set standards. But nope, we get bastards like Chee instead.

[Darth_Bastard]

The biggest problem with Episodes 1 and 2, in my opinion, is that Lucas merely wrote out draft one, full of "hey, wouldn't it be cool if...?" stuff, and then forgot to read it back to himself to see how it sounds. The dialogue between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as they are loading the new parts onto the transport ship is the clearest indication. I know I cannot be the only writer, amateur or otherwise, here, so I have to ask. If you wrote that out and then read it to yourself, what would your first impulsive reaction be? Mine would be along the lines of "man I badly need to polish that up before I so much as let it see daylight" (bear in mind I often tell people Shakespeare sucks because there is no way a real human being ever spoke like that). Lucas' was something like "Man, that sounds cool, I'll put that up on the screen for the entire world to laugh at".

As others have noted, this mainly comes from the fact that there is nobody around to tell Lucas "this is not going to work" or similar. When you write an article or short story for a publication with a strict editorial process, there is a lot of give and take about what to clean out of a piece. In one review I wrote for a DVD-related site, there was no less than ten editorial changes made to the draft I submitted before it was published. Looking back on the first draft and the final version, I can say I am very glad I went through it because I would have been embarassed to have the first draft anywhere other than on my hard drive.

I also have to dispute the CGI = bad acting thing, because it is clear from researching such films as Starship Troopers or The Fellowship Of The Ring that it has more to do with bad direction. A good director recognises that his actors are going to have a slight problem reacting to empty space or a tennis ball, so he gives the actors a bit of help in picturing or imagining what is meant to be in front of them. The featurettes available for StarShip Troopers certainly make Paul Verhoeven out to be a master of this. If the actors were not scared by how they pictured the arachnid warriors, they sure as hell were scared of Paul. Come to think of it, after seeing him directing actors in StarShip Troopers or Hollow Man, I suspect that the acting in the prequels could have turned out a lot better with his direction. Not because he is necessarily a better filmmaker, but because he seems to understand the actors' needs and perspectives far better.

So far as I am concerned, things like spaceship design really pale in comparison. Everything flows from a good script and good direction.

[Darth Wong]

One of the reasons that the dialogue and acting gets such criticism is that a lot of people are too fucking stupid to understand that it's deliberately over-formalized, because that's the society of the Old Republic. Hayden Christensen even talked about that in an interview before AOTC came out, mentioning the fact that people have to learn to talk in a more formal, less colloquial way than they would in real-life.

But nooooo, everyone in the entire universe should always talk like they're in a Quentin Tarantino movie, so the critics hop up and down and say that it's "wooden", as if they're honestly so goddamned dense that they can't figure out it's supposed to be a bit like the gilded age in real-life, not the late 20th century.

[Warsie]

This is why Firefly is so popular with everyone. Plot, what plot? Just a bunch of people tryin to make their way in the 'verse. Why does it work?.

You forgot how Firefly was based off of Outlaw Star. I noticed that very quickly.

EDIT: MKSheppard, thankfully they're correcting the lack of Acclamators and CIS ships in the Rebellion comics. They are showing Rebel CIS ships (like the Providence Rebel One) but yeah, your point is strong.

EDIT 2: Just because there are some EU references doesn't mean that it would be made to the point that no one else understands it. Some friends said that seriously the main reason they watched Star Wars was due to the laser effects/explosions/fleet combat.

[Dooey Jo]

This is why Firefly is so popular with everyone.

I thought Firefly was mostly popular among the fans, which was why Serenity performed badly at the box office. I've never seen it, but if it really doesn't have a plot and mostly is a bunch of characters wandering around being characters, then I can understand why...

The same logic can be applied to movies like Star Wars

The plot is absolutely integral to Star Wars, and the characters flow from it, not vice versa. You can't expect a movie to be better just because you make the plot simpler.

[Bounty]

I thought Firefly was mostly popular among the fans, which was why Serenity performed badly at the box office. I've never seen it, but if it really doesn't have a plot and mostly is a bunch of characters wandering around being characters, then I can understand why...

Firefly is love-it-or-hate-it. It does have a plot, though. Well, the separate episodes do. Pretty straightforward ones, even.

[Darth Wong]

The fact is that like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, the Star Wars prequels made far more of a cultural impression than every goddamned pompous Hugo award-winning sci-fi geek fanservice series out there combined. And if they were truly as bad as the geek fanboy community thinks they were, this wouldn't have happened. People would have stopped going. Kids would have said the movie was lame and not asked to go see the sequels. Look at how The Matrix and Star Trek took themselves off the cultural radar.

[Galvatron]

I think the anticipation of an inevitable payoff in Episode III maintained enough interest in the prequels to insure their success.

Getting there was painful though.

[Adrian Laguna]

I think the anticipation of an inevitable payoff in Episode III maintained enough interest in the prequels to insure their success.

Getting there was painful though.

I wasn't waiting in anticipation for Ep. III, in fact I quite enjoyed Episodes 1 and 2. Though it probably helped that when TPM came-out I was, at 11 years old, part of Lucas' primary target audience. Though I was old enough to find Mr. Binks a rather forgettable character.

[Stark]

Firefly is love-it-or-hate-it. It does have a plot, though. Well, the separate episodes do. Pretty straightforward ones, even.

The only negative attitude towards Firefly I've ever seen is against the very formulaic, cliched characters. Since this usually comes from fans of some other absurdly lame show, it's difficuly to take seriously.

I don't think the 'woot let's see the end of the Clone Wars' was a major draw after AOTC. We'd already seen it and everyone who cared already knew ROTS would skip the blam-blam-blam part of the war.