What went wrong with the new trilogy?

[Shroom Man 777]

But nooooo, everyone in the entire universe should always talk like they're in a Quentin Tarantino movie, so the critics hop up and down and say that it's "wooden", as if they're honestly so goddamned dense that they can't figure out it's supposed to be a bit like the gilded age in real-life, not the late 20th century.

Well, no. I mean, the dialogue in the OT wasn't like any whacko silly stuff like in a Tarantino film, but they worked. Hell, no one complained at how Obi-Wan talked.

[Tiriol]

One thing strikes me as rather hilarious in the whole "bash the prequels" scenario: for years people complained how everything in Star Wars seemed to be so big and huge and to affect the fate of the entire galaxy. Then along comes TPM where there's pretty much only one planet with its fate hanging by a thread (of course, the Naboo blockade and invasion resulted in much more severe effects for the whole galaxy in the end), not the entire galaxy and at no point does anyone even remotely suggest that Naboo could bring down the entire Republic (compare this to many EU novels where a single planet or fleet could turn the tide against the Republic or the Empire).

But it isn't good enough: now people complain how the whole TPM seemed to lack any clear threat or true villain (despite the phantom-like presence of Lord Sidious) and how it also lacked the emotional investment of the previous trilogy where the fate of the entire galaxy was at stake. People used to complain how everything was so black-and-white and larger-than-life in the OT and EU; now they complained about the reverse.

I confess: I did enjoy TPM (when I saw it, I was eleven years old) and AOTC (okay, I didn't like the romance parts) and I found ROTS to be extremely good. But then again, I didn't go to cinema waiting for something revolutionary that would change my entire point of view on life or to see "adult" Star Wars. I went to see movies for entertainment.

[VT-16]

I like TPM and the first half of AOTC mainly as tour-guides to the SW galaxy. Since it's one big story, that's the opening act which presents the settings for the audience. If nothing else, they serve that purpose.

[Jim Raynor]

But it isn't good enough: now people complain how the whole TPM seemed to lack any clear threat or true villain (despite the phantom-like presence of Lord Sidious)

This one really annoyed me. One review I read called the Trade Federation "incomprehensible." What's so hard to understand about a big business with so much power it can invade small worlds? I understood that when I first watched TPM at the age of 14.

I was really interested in finding out the specific cuts used to make "The Phantom Edit." Then I heard that it was no simple cutting of scenes, but that they actually used their own dubbing and voice acting to add in a subplot about how the Trade Federation invaded over some slavery issue (I think it was tied to Anakin's situation on Tatooine). Apparently, a lot of people couldn't understand the taxation of tax routes and didn't think it made for a good story. It WASN'T the story, it was a pure McGuffin, and the Trade Federation was obviously a bunch of pawns.

[Starglider]

Apparently, a lot of people couldn't understand the taxation of tax routes and didn't think it made for a good story. It WASN'T the story, it was a pure McGuffin, and the Trade Federation was obviously a bunch of pawns.

Assuming they are Americans, presumably these individuals cannot comprehend how their own revolutionary war was triggered by some seemingly minor taxes on shipping. One wonders if they'd advocate rewriting history textbooks with something 'more comprehensible'.

[ray245]

So what if older fans don't like it?

It allows a newer generation to have fun when watching a movie...isn't that the main goal of a movie? To entertain?

At least it can ensure a newer generation of star wars fan to grow up and being a fan, like many of the people here at the board.

Star Wars OT is hardly critically acclaimed in the past as compared to the 1997 special edition reviews. Reason? Most of the critcs have either enjoyed and grow up knowing star wars is well like by almost every movie fan, and anyone who tried to write OT as a bad film will only discredit themselves as a movie reivewer.

Who knows if the PT will be just as critcially acclaimed as the OT, where most of you guys here will be in your 60-70s, and the general views of star wars dominated by the very kids who happened to LIKE kid anikin or Jar Jar when they were young.

And since when did lucas intend to foucs star wars strongly on dialogue or very strong writing? If he wanted that, he might as well write a book, and NOT make a movie. Visually, I do find it entertaining, and FUN to watch.

Star Wars is a movie, not some shakepear's works, and neither did it try and compare with those works.

Furthermore, who the one which REALLY decide how star wars universe be like? Lucas himself of course! Sure, he let other authors EXPAND the star wars universe, but the shaping of it is still done by lucas himself.

Also, neither did george lucas say the designs of the pre OT ships is what he had in mind...

[CaptHawkeye]

Apparently, a lot of people couldn't understand the taxation of tax routes and didn't think it made for a good story. It WASN'T the story, it was a pure McGuffin, and the Trade Federation was obviously a bunch of pawns.

Assuming they are Americans, presumably these individuals cannot comprehend how their own revolutionary war was triggered by some seemingly minor taxes on shipping. One wonders if they'd advocate rewriting history textbooks with something 'more comprehensible'.

"The American Revolution was primarily started after the colonists refused to adopt Britiain's new economic policy. Communism."

To be fair, the American Revolution also came about from animosity left by the Navigation Acts.

[Darth_Bastard]

One of the fun things about being autistic is that it gives one a whole different perspective on the way people talk to one another. Dialogues (if you can call them that) in Tarantino films come off as artificial and annoying, perhaps even twice as much as is the case with Star Wars. You end up with a true feel for the extent to which people speak in the manner that feels most natural to them. Hence, in plays or films, dialogue that has unnecessary construction stands out like the head-crushing in The Story Of Ricky.

To use a reverse example, consider the dialogue in RoboCop. Outside of a few speeches in the board room, nary a single word is wasted. When the titular cyborg is asked what his prime directives are, his response is a string of terse order-like statements. Had George Lucas written this scene, it would be loaded with unnecessary qualifiers or structures such as "I will". However, terse fragments such as "Serve the public trust, protect the innocent, uphold the law" are how real human beings speak because they are short, sharp, and to the point. That last part cannot be emphasised enough, because as a lad I found myself forced to endure the company of one man who would speak for as long as ten minutes without ever getting to a point (assuming he even had one). By the second sentence, I often wanted to hit him. By the tenth, I had images in my head of shoving his face into a meat grinder. The dialogue in The Phantom Menace in particular reminds me of him. "As of course, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive any ambassadors"... damn, I could have sworn I saw this guy vomit a boot during that speech.

To put it another way, the speech in TPM violates the one absolutely inviolate rule of screenwriting for any format. That being the rule of time-economy. The rule of time-economy is simply that one must move the plot in any direction (forward being preferable) with the least amount of words in the least amount of time necessary to keep it making sense. I love TPM as an action film, and the scenes of Jedi hacking down everything in sight brought a big smile to my face when I saw the film on opening night. It was exactly the way I imagined Jedi at the height of their power. But things went South as soon as it was time to explain the structure of the story and the big picture. ANH might seem slow and languid in comparison to a modern action film, but it does not feel that way when watching it because the characters have been set up in a manner that compels the audience to watch and care about them. TPM instead has a very "here they are, take them or leave them" approach to character development. The complaint that a person watching Episode I first without any prior knowledge of the story would have no idea what is going on might be easy to dismiss until you realise that the exact same problem exists with all of the characters. All of the setup for who Obi-Wan Kenobi, Padmé Amidala, and Anakin Skywalker are is in the original trilogy. The prequels never scratch below the surface with them. As a direct result, scenes that take five minutes feel like they are taking ten. The audience is so often ahead of the characters because the films (especially AOTC) are taking all of two hours to tell a story that musicians often tell in less than ten minutes. If you do not believe that last statement, try watching AOTC after listening to the Black Sabbath song Iron Man.

Nobody complained about Obi-Wan's speech in ANH (or the other two films) because it filled in the universe that the characters inhabited very economically. With just a few well-chosen statements here and there, one got the idea of exactly what Luke was up against and why Leia was willing to give everything. The fact that it was delivered by a master actor who could overcome any kind of direction or writing helped no end. Even Harrison Ford is known to have remarked between takes to George that his dialogue was crappy. The problem on the cast end with the prequels is that most of the actors do not know how to cope with such material. It is not a coincidence that the elder, more experienced actors come off the best. Their acting experience fills in the gaps left by the direction and screenplay.

In that sense, the prequels have a lot in common with Ralph Bakshi's attempt to adapt The Lord Of The Rings. Both films find themselves coming up short in one department or another, and attempting to fill the shortcomings with stop-gap measures. In Bakshi's case, the wheels come off because the exposition is too difficult to economically fill with the time allowed, so the film progressively dissolves into more and more pointless fight scenes. Lucas is at least smart enough to allow himself enough time to get the story's railings right, but damned if I would not have made some changes to the structures in order to get character development flowing more economically.

[Dooey Jo]

Had George Lucas written this scene

That's a real funny way of criticising the prequels. Did you know that George Lucas also wrote the OT? I shit you not!

To put it another way, the speech in TPM violates the one absolutely inviolate rule of screenwriting for any format. That being the rule of time-economy. The rule of time-economy is simply that one must move the plot in any direction (forward being preferable) with the least amount of words in the least amount of time necessary to keep it making sense.

What? There's no such fucking rule. If there was, every single movie with an actual plot and actual dialogue would violate it. "Say as little as possible as fast as possible or you'll lose the audience"? Wow, I guess the opening of Trainspotting epically violates the rules of screenwriting, when you could easily condense it all that information into one sentence...

And no, real people do not talk like freaking RoboCop. Real people try to convey not only information, but also emotion, when they talk.

Nobody complained about Obi-Wan's speech in ANH (or the other two films) because it filled in the universe that the characters inhabited very economically. With just a few well-chosen statements here and there, one got the idea of exactly what Luke was up against and why Leia was willing to give everything. The fact that it was delivered by a master actor who could overcome any kind of direction or writing helped no end.

What are you even comparing to here? Obi-Wan had a completely different role in the PT than in the OT, not to mention that the speeches in the PT serve different functions.

Even Harrison Ford is known to have remarked between takes to George that his dialogue was crappy. The problem on the cast end with the prequels is that most of the actors do not know how to cope with such material.

But such experienced actors as Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher did?

[Jade Falcon]

My main complaints are...

CGI..sometimes it was fine, even though it was used a lot, but some places there was so much CGI it was more difficult to focus on one thing. The prime example was the Coruscant city chase in AOTC. However, to be fair, the impression was to try and show how big a place and how deep it goes. Even the EU novels like the X-Wing books try to give an impression just how big Coruscant is, so I don't really know how they could have changed it.

The pacing of AOTC and TPM seemed a bit awkward at times, but that's a personal opinion.

The deleted scenes that are shown in all three films aren't critical, though it would have been nice to show the theatrical release of ROTS with the meeting with Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and co, but I'm not sure if this would interfere with the pace of the film or not.

[Darth Wong]

One of the fun things about being autistic is that it gives one a whole different perspective on the way people talk to one another ...

Different but not necessarily valid, if your asinine bullshit is any indicator. If you honestly think real people talk without wasting any words, you're either deaf or an idiot. Nobody would ever tolerate realistic speech in a movie. Realistic speech is punctuated with delay words like "ummmm" and "ahhhh" and "you know ....." (or "like" for valley girls and "know what I'm sayin'" for ghetto punks) because people are not slick communicators.

I especially liked the part where you said you once knew a guy who talked like the people in TPM, and then concluded that nobody ever talks like the people in TPM. Way to contradict yourself, kiddo. Who the fuck actually talks like Robocop, who you laughably use as an example of realistic dialogue?

And your "rule" about paring down dialogue to the absolute minimum necessary to move the plot is bullshit too. I'd love to see how you talk to girls if you follow your own rules. That would be a laugh.

[VT-16]

The prime example was the Coruscant city chase in AOTC

I had the same reaction to that sequence as I'm sure many people had to the sight of the Star Destroyer at the beginning of ANH in 1977. "Holy fuck, that place is huuuuuuuge".

[Jade Falcon]

I had the same reaction to that sequence as I'm sure many people had to the sight of the Star Destroyer at the beginning of ANH in 1977. "Holy fuck, that place is huuuuuuuge".

Aye, the X-Wing novels and other EU materials had basically said that Coruscant was practically all city bar the polar ice caps, but even the descriptions didn't quite prepare you for the look.

[CaptHawkeye]

I had the same reaction to that sequence as I'm sure many people had to the sight of the Star Destroyer at the beginning of ANH in 1977. "Holy fuck, that place is huuuuuuuge".

Aye, the X-Wing novels and other EU materials had basically said that Coruscant was practically all city bar the polar ice caps, but even the descriptions didn't quite prepare you for the look.

Damn straight, one good look at Coruscant and you can't help but go,

"Trekkies think they can beat this?"

Of course, that should have been apparent to everyone the moment we saw the Death Star.

[Jade Falcon]

Worst jobs in the galaxy though, being a window cleaner or street sweeper on Coruscant.

[Mange]

The deleted scenes that are shown in all three films aren't critical, though it would have been nice to show the theatrical release of ROTS with the meeting with Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and co, but I'm not sure if this would interfere with the pace of the film or not.

Personally, I think that the first meeting scene should have stayed in the movie. It wasn't very long and wouldn't have upset the pacing. One of the things I though about when watching ROTS in the theater the first time was what could've led to this exchange between Padmé and Anakin:

PADME: Have you ever considered that we may be on the wrong side?
ANAKIN: What do you mean?
PADME: What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?
ANAKIN: I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist!
PADME: Anakin, this war represents a failure to listen . . . Now, you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please, please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume.

With the deleted scene, which ended like this and which took place before this scene, I think it would've been a better scene:

BAIL ORGANA: Yes. I agree and we must not discuss this with anyone, without everyone in this group agreeing.
MON MOTHMA: That means those closest to you . . . even family ... no one can be told.
PADME: Agreed.

This would've said something about the relationship between Anakin and Padmé. The other meeting scene, the petition of 2,000, feels quite unnecessary (even though it does contain interesting information about the regional governors), but the acting in that scene isn't up to par.

[Isolder74]

Worst jobs in the galaxy though, being a window cleaner or street sweeper on Coruscant.

I'm sure they have droids for that.

possible one like the droid Zam uses to get her package into Amidala's quarters.

It did have the hover capicity way beyond what it needed.

[Jade Falcon]

I'm sure they have droids for that.

possible one like the droid Zam uses to get her package into Amidala's quarters.

It did have the hover capicity way beyond what it needed.

Aye, I was being funny though.

[Jim Raynor]

One of the fun things about being autistic is that it gives one a whole different perspective on the way people talk to one another ...

Different but not necessarily valid, if your asinine bullshit is any indicator. If you honestly think real people talk without wasting any words, you're either deaf or an idiot. Nobody would ever tolerate realistic speech in a movie. Realistic speech is punctuated with delay words like "ummmm" and "ahhhh" and "you know ....." (or "like" for valley girls and "know what I'm sayin'" for ghetto punks) because people are not slick communicators.

I especially liked the part where you said you once knew a guy who talked like the people in TPM, and then concluded that nobody ever talks like the people in TPM. Way to contradict yourself, kiddo. Who the fuck actually talks like Robocop, who you laughably use as an example of realistic dialogue?

And your "rule" about paring down dialogue to the absolute minimum necessary to move the plot is bullshit too. I'd love to see how you talk to girls if you follow your own rules. That would be a laugh.

I also loved the way he used the Neimodian's line "As of course, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive any ambassadors" as an example of a horrible line that went on too long without making a point.

Sure, it's longer and more formal than what a "normal" person would say. But give me a fucking break, it wasn't that long. I think he's the first person I've ever seen to single out THAT line for criticism.

Besides, you would think that people would try to be formal when they're handling political bullshit, especially when they're intentionally putting up a friendly facade.

[Isolder74]

One of the fun things about being autistic is that it gives one a whole different perspective on the way people talk to one another ...

Different but not necessarily valid, if your asinine bullshit is any indicator. If you honestly think real people talk without wasting any words, you're either deaf or an idiot. Nobody would ever tolerate realistic speech in a movie. Realistic speech is punctuated with delay words like "ummmm" and "ahhhh" and "you know ....." (or "like" for valley girls and "know what I'm sayin'" for ghetto punks) because people are not slick communicators.

I especially liked the part where you said you once knew a guy who talked like the people in TPM, and then concluded that nobody ever talks like the people in TPM. Way to contradict yourself, kiddo. Who the fuck actually talks like Robocop, who you laughably use as an example of realistic dialogue?

And your "rule" about paring down dialogue to the absolute minimum necessary to move the plot is bullshit too. I'd love to see how you talk to girls if you follow your own rules. That would be a laugh.

I also loved the way he used the Neimodian's line "As of course, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive any ambassadors" as an example of a horrible line that went on too long without making a point.

Sure, it's longer and more formal than what a "normal" person would say. But give me a fucking break, it wasn't that long. I think he's the first person I've ever seen to single out THAT line for criticism.

Besides, you would think that people would try to be formal when they're handling political bullshit, especially when they're intentionally putting up a friendly facade.

Good point after all this was a business executive talking to a Republic official. You would expect overly complicated and flowery formal language in this instance. Perhaps he is annoyed by Gunray's accents and manner of speaking?

[Starglider]

"As of course, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive any ambassadors"... damn, I could have sworn I saw this guy vomit a boot during that speech.

Say WTF? Have you ever actually listened to a politician, or to a lesser extent a CEO, being interviewed? The 'solid wall of waffle, evasion and vapid bullshit' technique is extremely popular. Film portrayals of politicians are generally very concise and to the point in comparison, otherwise the plot would have to grind to a halt for ten minutes every time one of them decided to speechify (Sheridan and Sisko are about as far as visual sci-fi goes in that respect).

By the tenth, I had images in my head of shoving his face into a meat grinder.

I can't see how you could survive an average corporate meeting with this attitude, much less something like an involved legal case or negotiating a major contract with another company out to screw you.

[Galvatron]

I'd have preferred that the dialogue remained consistent with that of the old men in the OT.

For example, Alec Guinness was able to convey old-world sophistication without having to refer to Luke as "my young padawan learner" every other scene.

[NeoGoomba]

I'd have preferred that the dialogue remained consistent with that of the old men in the OT.

For example, Alec Guinness was able to convey old-world sophistication without having to refer to Luke as "my young padawan learner" every other scene.

To dovetail with that, I thought that Christopher Lee did a fantastic job at delivery, and he was the "Old Man" of the PT.

I suppose that was just acting "presence" or whatever you'd want to call it, coming through, much as it did for Guinness.

[Galvatron]

Gravitas.

Peter Cushing had it too.

[Darth Wong]

I'd have preferred that the dialogue remained consistent with that of the old men in the OT.

For example, Alec Guinness was able to convey old-world sophistication without having to refer to Luke as "my young padawan learner" every other scene.

Yeah, it's not as if he's spent the last 30 years living among farmers rather than living in the pretentious prep-school environment of Jedi Academy. Who would expect him to talk differently?