Eugenics

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Starglider
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Eugenics

Post by Starglider »

I noticed a few typically dismissive (for the wrong reasons) mentions of eugenics on this thread, so I thought I'd copy a couple of posts I made to another forum a while back (arguing against people trying to say human genetic engineering == eugenics == OMG nazis eeevil):
People saying how eugenics is evil are mostly failing to differentiate between the basic concept (which is basically sound but tricky to implement without coercion) and the truly despicable people who latched onto the idea in attempt to justify their own racial hatreds. Generally their efforts were completely unscientific anyway, but managed to smear the word 'eugenics' with a negative tone. This is similar to how idiot so-called-environmentalists have managed to smear 'nuclear power' with negative connotations (when actually it's probably our best hope for reducing deadly atmospheric pollution).

Wanting future generations to be healthier, fitter and more intelligent is in theory a good thing. All parents want this for their own children; the motivation of eugenics is simply to want the same thing for the whole population. We have ample evidence that selective breeding does work (in animals). Unfortunately (ethical) eugenics isn't practical, because to implement it ethically you'd have to get huge numbers of people to agree to defer their reproductive decisions to a central authority, when people have an inherent evolved desire to spread their own genetic material regardless of the consequences. Furthermore the kind of power structure and attitudes you'd have to set up to do that are inherently open to abuse by unethical politicians - historical attempts at eugenics were mostly broken from conception (no pun intended), but even a scheme set up with the best of intentions and relying on sperm/egg banks and artificial insemination instead of controlling relationships would be highly vulnerable to manipulation by unethical people (plus the automatic negative PR it would get would be hard to bear). Attempting to implement eugenics by simply killing off people you consider unworthy is a (aside from being utterly evil and reprehensible) horribly inefficient - without identifying and tracking traits over several generation (including recessives) you'll just be implementing a weak selection pressure that will probably take hundreds of generations to have a noticable effect.
Genetic engineering is NOTHING LIKE eugenics. Eugenics involves changing a population's characteristics by controlling (or at least influencing) which individuals breed (limiting or preventing some, encouraging or forcing others). The successful application of eugenics is why we have so many useful breeds of domesticated pet and food animals, as well as the huge range of very productive crops. It's immoral to apply to humans (at least if any coercion is involved, and it's more or less impossible to do human eugenics with coercion) because we believe the decision of whether to reproduce and who with should be a solely personal one (or at least liberal Western cultures mostly believe that - various other cultures and many flavours of religious nut don't). Genetic engineering is purely the personal choice of the person who is having their child's genome edited/created, or of the person directing the process for a sci-fi artificial womb scenario. It doesn't restrict anyone else's free choice at all (unless an unwilling woman is forced to carry an artificial baby to term, but that's just rape pure and simple, the GE angle is irrelevant). The engineered child themselves don't get a choice - they can't, because the choice had to be made before they were born, but people don't get to chose their own height, gender, skin colour, congenital diseases, natural aptitudes etc in natural birth so that's no worse (and hopefully rather better) than the random draw natural conception already suffers from.

The nice thing about genetic engineering is that it potentially allows us to remove genetic diseases and generally improve the lot of future generations without having to remove personal choice or create a dangerous centralisation of power. Also major changes can be introduced in a single generation, hopefully quite reliably once we understand the human genome a lot better than we do now, whereas eugenics while less individually risky takes many generations to have significant effects.
Hopefully that won't be too controversial. Just to be clear, all historical examples of attempting to apply eugenics to humans were disasters on both a humanitarian and a practical level. I'm not advocating that in any way (rather like communism, it's something that could works in theory if you completely ignore human nature, but not in practice). I'm just saying that the concept itself isn't inherently evil (and has featured as such in some sci-fi) and the term actually covers all our successful breeding programs on animals. Statements of the generic 'OMG eugenics eeevil!' type are best replaced with specific criticisms of specific atrocities and injustices.
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Post by Surlethe »

One minor point:
Starglider wrote:... rather like communism, it's something that could works in theory if you completely ignore human nature, but not in practice
Now, that's not a very strong point in its favor, is it? What you've just said is that both communism and eugenics are essentially useless and doomed to failure, even though they're self-consistent. The problem is that this "in theory" bullshit is simply a red herring from the question of whether it actually works as advertised.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Even if eugenics worked as advertised, one would have to question the ethics of forcibly sterilizing people, which is the only way to make it work. The only difference between working eugenics and non-working eugenics is the quality of the decision-making re: who is to be forcibly sterilized.
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Post by Boyish-Tigerlilly »

It would depend on what type of Eugenics you are talking about (in relation to the Original Post). Today, many bioethicists tend to consider gene therapy, genetic engineering, self-selection, etc "liberal neo-eugenics" which seems fairly innocuous, as it's voluntary or push through incentives.

Old Time(TM) eugenics was quite bad, yes, and it wasn't effective because much of what they chose anyway wasn't really something that could be modified by their eugenic programmes. After a while, they justed inventing "diseases" and genetic deficiencies to kill people, like "work shy."

Eugenics in the modern sense really has little relation to the old form. I don't know why they call it that in bioethics. :? It doesn't really help the programme to label it deliberately something that evokes emotional responses.
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Post by Fire Fly »

Just a few quick words. As mentioned, eugentics is essentially the same thing as artificial selection. But so many people get worked up about it without actually thinking about some of the most basic things. It is highly unlikely, nor is it practical, that eugenetics will ever work with humans. Most of the traits that people are trying to select for such as intelligence, height, mass, muscle strength are quantitative traits. In order to maximize quantitative traits, it is necessary to constantly select the best crop per generation and constantly mate them several generations, dozens of generations. Even then, there will always be selective pressure from the environment to "bring down" such traits.

Below is a picture regarding the pupa size of a certain beetle. As you can see, it is possible to increase pupa size but it takes several generations and even then, the moment that artificial selection is no longer applied, there is great pressure to reduce pupa size.

Image

Besides the practicality and the ethics, a eugenics program will be massively expensive to maintain. Each person will require constantly monitoring, medical attention, extreme discipline with regards to food, exercise, and intellectual stimulation/education. Forcing cosmetic surgery would probably be a cheaper and easier solution to getting the perfect population.
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Post by Starglider »

Surlethe wrote:Now, that's not a very strong point in its favor, is it? What you've just said is that both communism and eugenics are essentially useless and doomed to failure, even though they're self-consistent.
Absolutely. Even if you could somehow do it non-coercively (via massive bribes and social pressure say), the attempt would still almost certainly be perverted by people with less-than-benevolent agendas.
The problem is that this "in theory" bullshit is simply a red herring from the question of whether it actually works as advertised.
If it came up in a genuine attempt to argue for implementing human eugenics, maybe. However I've never actually seen such an argument used - people idiotic enough to go for this rarely get past the sophistication of 'blacks are clearly an inferior race' or 'we should gas all the retards, they're a drain on society'.

My point was just that when arguing against sort of thing, you should be as precise as possible. Smearing 'eugenics' generically is annoying to biologists because the term strictly includes completely legitimate and worthwhile animal breeding programs. Even attacking 'human eugenics' specifically should be done carefully so that you hit the right targets. Usually it's the associated hate and/or ignorance that's the real problem, rarely you might get into an argument (about one of the sci-fi non-coercive versions for example) about methods and general impracticality. Get lazy and leave your argument at 'eugenics == nazis == obviously eeeevil' and you're making the same mistake as the 'nukes omg radiation we're all going to die' envirocretins. The results were apparent on the forum I copied the post from; people concluding that human genetic engineering was automatically evil because it sounded like eugenics, which everyone knows is eeevil right?
Darth Wong wrote:Even if eugenics worked as advertised, one would have to question the ethics of forcibly sterilizing people, which is the only way to make it work.
It does work 'as advertised' in the sense that we can breed for specific traits very rapidly (compared to natural selection) given total control of the breeding population. Clearly this is horribly unethical (not to mention extremely difficult) for humans even before you start asking who gets to choose what traits are selected for.

Again, I'm not defending the concept of human eugenics as something anyone should actually implement (which is indefensible IMHO), I'm just advocating a bit more precision when referencing it. The issue isn't as simple as 'eugenics == evil' and if you try to simplify it to that there will probably be collateral damage on related topics. The fundamentalist reasoning of 'fetuses == babies, abortion == baby killing, stem cells == baby corpses, stem cell research == eeeeevil' is largely a much worse version of the same mistake.
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Post by sketerpot »

If you go with in vitro fertilization, genetically inspect the embryos before implantation, and implant the one that has the most favorable traits, you can get eugenics without coercion. The problem is that there will be a lot of people who don't want to go through the costly hassle of embryo selection, and a lot of those people are the kind of mental defectives that eugenics aims to breed out of existence. So this couldn't work at full potential without either coercion or very widespread social acceptance -- but it could work.
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Post by Darth Wong »

sketerpot wrote:If you go with in vitro fertilization, genetically inspect the embryos before implantation, and implant the one that has the most favorable traits, you can get eugenics without coercion.
How? Even leaving aside the people who wouldn't be allowed to breed at all, you still have to force people to undergo this procedure rather than simply fucking each other, as per billions of years of evolutionary instinct.
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Post by sketerpot »

Darth Wong wrote:
sketerpot wrote:If you go with in vitro fertilization, genetically inspect the embryos before implantation, and implant the one that has the most favorable traits, you can get eugenics without coercion.
How? Even leaving aside the people who wouldn't be allowed to breed at all, you still have to force people to undergo this procedure rather than simply fucking each other, as per billions of years of evolutionary instinct.
I was referring to a soft eugenics program, which seeks only to increase the average genetic favorability of the population (or of some subset of the population). As I said, you can't get everybody to do embryo selection without some heavy coercion, but you can count on a large number of parents wanting their children to have good tickets for the genetic lottery.

This wouldn't have as dramatic an effect as a coercive version of eugenics, but it would damn well do something.
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Post by Wyrm »

Yes... speaking of genetic favorability, I'd like to point out that those traits that humans think are favorable may be different from those traits that are actually favorable.
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Post by Starglider »

sketerpot wrote:I was referring to a soft eugenics program, which seeks only to increase the average genetic favorability of the population (or of some subset of the population). As I said, you can't get everybody to do embryo selection without some heavy coercion, but you can count on a large number of parents wanting their children to have good tickets for the genetic lottery.
This works ok for screening out genetic diseases with well understood mechanisms. Unfortunately it probably wouldn't tackle recessives; parents just want their children to be healthy, they don't usually care about the probabilities of their great-grandchildren having problems. So the net improvement to the gene pool would be very gradual.

Embryo screening wouldn't work on complex traits that we don't know the location and structure of the coding genes for. Breeding-only ('black box') eugenics is actually a pretty robust system: dog breeders managed to produce stable breeds with a huge range of physical and behavioural traits, usually in just a few hundred generations from a common ancestor, without having any detailed knowledge of the genetics behind those traits. By the time we finally do understand complex physiological and psychological traits at the genetic level (to the extent that genetics count, for the latter) well enough to reliably screen for them, we'll probably be able to just engineer them into a selected gamete's genome with less time and effort than collecting/growing and screening huge numbers of embryos.
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Post by Stark »

As Boyish-Tigerlilly mentioned, some people have problems with non-sterilisation measures like using gene therapy or engineering to resolve illnesses or deformities. I don't really understand their position (the whole 'deaf community' bullshit) but this is 'selecting' qualities without having to sterilise anyone.

Of course it won't work, since you won't get 100% uptake, but it seems to bother people the same was as eugenics did. I'm not sure how 'eliminating hereditary illness' compares to 'eliminating dirty brown people' though.
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Post by Starglider »

Stark wrote:I don't really understand their position (the whole 'deaf community' bullshit) but this is 'selecting' qualities without having to sterilise anyone.
I understand it - they have the usual human need to feel special, they've rationalised their disability into a reason why they're special, they've formed an insular community that makes them feel good about themselves and they don't want it to go away or the illusion to be revealed for what it is. But yes, it's bullshit when they start claiming that deafness isn't a disability or that fixing it in children is wrong.

While I'm on the subject, there are similar problems with acknowledging that yes, the brain is in fact coded for by genes, and genetic differences do dictate mental capabilities and strongly influence personality (albeit often in tortuous and nonobvious ways). On the one side you have racist fuckwits trying to pervert the science to justify hate and discrimination, while on the other side you have ultra-liberal social science intellectuals and genuine PC morons trying to push their tabula rasa crap and ignore any biology that proves even slightly awkward for their social philosophy. It's a complex and subtle issue that the general public isn't really equipped to understand - just look at the mess over the various and ongoing 'gay gene' theories. Take the question 'are there systematic mental differences between human ethnicities?'. In the 19th century, 'yes' was the foregone conclusion and many so-called scientists were essentially just trying to rationalise that. We got the whole 'black people have lower IQs' theory which various enlightened people in the 20th century realised was based on bullshit methodology. Unfortunately the less enlightened people ran with this until it became effectively liberal heresy on many campuses to suggest that their were systematic mental differences between populations.

If you approach this from a biological point of view, it's almost a no-brainer: genes code for behaviour and mental abilities as much as (though less directly than) they code for physical and biochemical characteristics. Again, systematic differences in behaviour between dog breeds are a good example of how it doesn't take that many generations to implement big changes, at least under artificial selection. For humans, behaviour almost certainly gets as much selection pressure as physical and biochemical traits, but there are two important differences: it won't be coupled to specific genes as directly because the expression mechanisms are more complex, and in a human community there will always be a range of 'behavioural niches' that prevent convergence to homogenity, unlike something simple like lactose tolerance/intolerance in communities that farm animals for milk. Looking at humans, we can see clear systematic differences in biochemical, immunological and physical traits between (formerly) regional populations, but they're small compared to some of the subspecies distinctions we see in other species. Simple traits like skin colour and lactose tolerance show overwhelming homgenity within a local population, more complicated ones (in expression and susceptibility to environmental factors) like height show a general trend but much more individual variation. Coming in from an apolitical perspective, a biologist's expectation that there would certainly be systematic mental differences, but they will be subtle, trivial compared to variation between families and individuals, and insignificant compared to the difference between humans and the next nearest species.

Just try saying 'there are almost certainly mild, but systematic differences in average mental capabilities and personality distribution between human ethnicities, though unfortunately it is very difficult to collect unbiased data on them' on a liberal forum though. A whole gaggle of tabula rasa PC nutcases will start screaming 'racist, racist', while any actual racist trolls hanging around will say something like 'see, the scientists are with us, the negros are inferior and we must cleanse the US'.

So anyway, the point is still just to be careful when critiquing. Claims like 'black people have lower IQs' (strange that no one claims the reverse despite it being equally likely from an indifferent prior... :roll:) will generally be stupid for reasons like broken testing methodology, bad statistics, biased samples, cultural bias of IQ tests, the lack of sufficient post-split generations and selection pressure for a significant divergence, the general inadequacy of IQ as a measure of 'intelligence', the fact that even if correct this would have no meaningful bearing on public policy and/or just the simple folly of doing a study in an attempt to rationalise a pre-existing dogmatic belief. When arguing against these claims focus on these specific mistakes, don't fall into the PC trap of 'mental characteristics have a genetic basis == nasty racist scientists == crimethink! crimethink!'.
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Post by Starglider »

Note that you get the same problem if you try and talk about systematic mental differences between human genders. The weight of evidence on this one is now sufficiently overwhelming that few psychologists would object, though the specifics of course are hotly debated. But again, the people who take 'all humans have the exact same mental potential, differences are society's fault' as an article of faith are outraged by this, while misogynists and misandrists alike will cheerfully twist and misinterpret it to their own ends. The underlying idiocy in both cases is of course trying to turn a very complex and semi-independent set of (population-averaged mental) capabilities, which themselves depend on complex trade-offs at various levels of brain structure, into a single judgement of superiority/inferiority.
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Post by Darth Wong »

sketerpot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
sketerpot wrote:If you go with in vitro fertilization, genetically inspect the embryos before implantation, and implant the one that has the most favorable traits, you can get eugenics without coercion.
How? Even leaving aside the people who wouldn't be allowed to breed at all, you still have to force people to undergo this procedure rather than simply fucking each other, as per billions of years of evolutionary instinct.
I was referring to a soft eugenics program, which seeks only to increase the average genetic favorability of the population (or of some subset of the population).
If you don't stop the majority of "undesirable" specimens from reproducing, you don't solve the problem at all. The majority of the human population will remain unchanged, so this attempt to force evolution would only create a branching sub-species.
As I said, you can't get everybody to do embryo selection without some heavy coercion, but you can count on a large number of parents wanting their children to have good tickets for the genetic lottery.
Most likely, the outcome of such a policy would be a dramatic widening of the gap between the haves and have-nots, with the added prejudice of the haves being able to produce real scientific evidence that they are actually superior.
This wouldn't have as dramatic an effect as a coercive version of eugenics, but it would damn well do something.
Oh, it would probably do something. Just not necessarily what you want.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:
sketerpot wrote:As I said, you can't get everybody to do embryo selection without some heavy coercion, but you can count on a large number of parents wanting their children to have good tickets for the genetic lottery.
Most likely, the outcome of such a policy would be a dramatic widening of the gap between the haves and have-nots, with the added prejudice of the haves being able to produce real scientific evidence that they are actually superior.
It's an unrealistic hypothetical anyway, but the width of the (genetic) gap would be strictly limited by the fact that some children of the 'haves' are still going to opt out and breed with 'have nots'. Certainly that could be the basis for a much more serious economic stratification, but frankly rationalisations for such class stratifications aren't exactly in short supply even without systematic genetic differences.
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