Would the Scimitar be of Interest to the Empire?

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up?

ROTFLMAO!!! How do you produce a net IMPULSE if you grab your own ejecta back up? Were you sleeping through science class?

Sooo... If I were to go into space and start collecting the ejecta from the Apollo program, the Apollo ships would retroactively be slowed down? Ever hear of collecting them AFTER they have filled their propulsion requirement and are now useless emissions?

[Darth Yoshi]

But once the emissions have fulfilled their requirement, it'll be possible to detect them. After all, I believe cloaking shields are hull-hugging in ST.

[Alyeska]

But once the emissions have fulfilled their requirement, it'll be possible to detect them. After all, I believe cloaking shields are hull-hugging in ST.

Its possible this is built INTO the engine system.

[Darth Wong]

And where is yours indicating that they use identical technology? Your only example is for the Federation, not the Romulans.

Any impulse drive must produce ejecta. You have failed to produce evidence that there is a such thing as a zero-product impulse drive. I do not have to disprove the existence of such a thing; are you totally unfamiliar with Occam's Razor?

Wrong. You have to prove that it exists before I need to explain why they wouldn't use it.

Easy. Star Trek 6 proves that it exists.

Wrong, dumb-ass. I was talking about your mythical zero-ejecta propulsion system.

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a jack-ass? Cooling units only INCREASE the overall heat output of a system; they function by moving heat from one place to another, not by actually destroying it. Are the laws of thermodynamics completely alien to you?

Chemical cooling systems do not create heat quite like that.

Oh, puh-lease. Dumping chemicals on anything warm and hoping for endothermic reactions to suck up the heat? How long can they keep that up, and how practical is this system? The pumping activity alone involves heat generation.

You have to prove why they would search for it. Cloaking devices are supossed to hide you from the enemy. Naturally you try and search for possible signatures. The fact that they DON'T search for heat is kinda a key indicator here.

Bullshit. They have demonstrated many times that they are too stupid to scan infrared. How many times have they been reduced to stumbling around blind because of subspace sensor jamming, even though infrared would work perfectly?

There is such a thing as masking and minimizing, not making disapear. The idea behind cloaking devices is to hide from your enemy. You do things to hide certain tell tale signs. Does that means these signs have to go away? No, just minimized or hidden in some fashion or another. Its impossible for modern aircraft and helicopters to not show any heat, yet we have heat reducing technology to defeat our sensors.

No, we have heat diffusion technology to reduce the signature. Even stealth planes can still be detected; they just have to be closer than regular planes. And against the cold background of space, this won't work too well at all. Even perfect diffusion across the entire surface area of the ship wouldn't be enough.

Its entirely possible they can do things to reduce their signature to a point in which sensors can't find these telltale signs, doesn't mean they have disapeared.

We aren't talking about reducing them beneath the point where Federation sensors can't pick them up. We're talking about reducing them below the point where alien sensors won't pick them up. The fact that A>B does not mean that A>C.

We already know that impossible things happen in scifi ... <snip excuses for ignoring the laws of physics>

We all know where this is going; you can't justify your claims so you're just going to appeal to ignorance and say that anything you don't understand is proof that we can't understand anything in sci-fi ... therefore you're right. Why don't you just say that cloaking devices use magic?

What it says is that cloaked ships do not break the laws of thermo dynamics. They still have emissions of one sort or another but they try and minimize and mask these emissions. All we known is that the Scimitar does a better job then previous cloaking designs. It masks its emissions to the point where Federation sensors can't see it.

Since Federation sensors are completely useless in the presence of any kind of radiation even though ordinary optics and infrared would still work perfectly (see "Symbiosis" as well as many, many other examples), this doesn't say much.

You can't always apply science to scifi. Regardless there is a difference between masking and reducing your emissions compared to completely removing them.

Against a 3K background, no amount of "masking" will help you. And the only way to reduce their emissions is to shut down and go cold.

So your entire debate stance is that the Federation is really stupid? So now we degenerate into the "Who is dumber?" debate.

Nice strawman. I notice how, in your zeal to classify this point as my "entire debate stance", you completely ignored my other point, about the special circumstances in ST6. Do you think you'll fool anybody with that?

So far all you have done is make yourself look like an arogant ass.

How? By not attempting to ignore the laws of physics in favour of personal speculation, as you do? You have a funny definition of "arrogant".

[Darth Wong]

ROTFLMAO!!! How do you produce a net IMPULSE if you grab your own ejecta back up? Were you sleeping through science class?

Sooo... If I were to go into space and start collecting the ejecta from the Apollo program, the Apollo ships would retroactively be slowed down?

No, dumb-ass, since the impulse is transferred to your ship, not the Apollos. If the ship collects its OWN ejecta, on the other hand, then any impulse gained by launching it out the back end is lost when you collect it again.

Give it up, Alyeska. You're treading on elementary kinematics here; anyone with a science textbook can prove you wrong now.

Ever hear of collecting them AFTER they have filled their propulsion requirement and are now useless emissions?

(sigh) I'm starting to seriously wonder if someone stole your brain over the Christmas holidays, Alyeska. You didn't seem this stupid before.

Shall I review elementary Newtonian kinematics with you? Say starship A launches object B to the left. Object B contains X kg*m/s of momentum, so starship A gains X kg*m/s momentum to the right, hence conserving total momentum. That's how rockets work. Now, let's say starship B uses some kind of forcefield to grab up object B and pull it back. It will slow down object B as it flies left, but the force will also slow down starship A as it flies right. The net result will be that the two objects will approach one another again, and end up exactly where they were in the first place.

There, is that simple enough for you? Or do you need pretty pictures?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I seriously did not think you'd honestly attempt to refute how you'd get a rid of your ejecta, but this is a gem.

You obviously have never even taken a basic glance at the most basic Newtonian physical concepts. This is something that physicists over a hundred years ago would've laughed at you about.

[Alyeska]

ROTFLMAO!!! How do you produce a net IMPULSE if you grab your own ejecta back up? Were you sleeping through science class?

Sooo... If I were to go into space and start collecting the ejecta from the Apollo program, the Apollo ships would retroactively be slowed down?

No, dumb-ass, since the impulse is transferred to your ship, not the Apollos. If the ship collects its OWN ejecta, on the other hand, then any impulse gained by launching it out the back end is lost when you collect it again.

Give it up, Alyeska. You're treading on elementary kinematics here; anyone with a science textbook can prove you wrong now.

Ever hear of collecting them AFTER they have filled their propulsion requirement and are now useless emissions?

(sigh) I'm starting to seriously wonder if someone stole your brain over the Christmas holidays, Alyeska. You didn't seem this stupid before.

Shall I review elementary Newtonian kinematics with you? Say starship A launches object B to the left. Object B contains X kg*m/s of momentum, so starship A gains X kg*m/s momentum to the right, hence conserving total momentum. That's how rockets work. Now, let's say starship B uses some kind of forcefield to grab up object B and pull it back. It will slow down object B as it flies left, but the force will also slow down starship A as it flies right. The net result will be that the two objects will approach one another again, and end up exactly where they were in the first place.

There, is that simple enough for you? Or do you need pretty pictures?

What about this posibility? Starship A uses Object B to propel itself forward. Starship A then uses a forcefield to deflect Object B left or right into waiting collectors. Starship A does not latch itself onto Object B, but uses Object Bs momentum to trap it by diverting it sideways into a waiting collector. Or would the impacting of Object B on the forcefield that is connected to Starship A act as a neutralizing force to the original momentum? If that were the case then Starship A would have to use an interialess system to retrieve Object B, something like a transporter. That or after Object B has been utilized, a mass lightening field can be extended over Object B making the retrieval of it cause less impact on the ships interia.

[Alyeska]

I seriously did not think you'd honestly attempt to refute how you'd get a rid of your ejecta, but this is a gem.

You obviously have never even taken a basic glance at the most basic Newtonian physical concepts. This is something that physicists over a hundred years ago would've laughed at you about.

My basic Chem class and biology classes never covered these scientific principles. As such I had not considered fully the newtonian principles.

[Darth Wong]

What about this posibility? Starship A uses Object B to propel itself forward. Starship A then uses a forcefield to deflect Object B left or right into waiting collectors.

This will also alter the course of starship A, left or right.

Starship A does not latch itself onto Object B, but uses Object Bs momentum to trap it by diverting it sideways into a waiting collector.

The act of diverting it sideways requires force, which must have an equal and opposite reaction, hence starship A does, by necessity, "latch itself onto object B" in the process of diverting it. And unless the collector is left behind as well, the act of grabbing the collector will have the exact same effect as the act of grabbing object B itself. Either way, you've got to leave something behind.

Or would the impacting of Object B on the forcefield that is connected to Starship A act as a neutralizing force to the original momentum?

No. If I hit your car with my car, I am actually hitting tiny electromagnetic forcefields which repel your atoms from mine. The use of forcefields does not alter the basic principles involved.

If that were the case then Starship A would have to use an interialess system to retrieve Object B, something like a transporter.

A transporter must still conserve momentum somehow, presumably by transferring it to the transport system itself. Nothing can violate conservation of momentum. Even an "inertial damper" must work by simply applying distributed counter-forces to the people on the ship so that they don't feel the acceleration; the momentum must still be dealt with by the ship itself.

That or after Object B has been utilized, a mass lightening field can be extended over Object B making the retrieval of it cause less impact on the ships interia.

If mass-lightening fields could be used in that way, you could generate infinite energy by simply mass-lightening an object in a gravity well, turning the field off, and then letting it fall, so you can collect the GPE. Repeat ad infinitum. Obviously, since they haven't started making giant gravity-engine power plants, this can't be how they work (besides, any scheme which leads to perpetual-motion machines must be flawed for that reason alone). You must not be able to effect permanent elimination of effects through use of the fields. In the case of "Deja Q", it was presumably being used only to shift part of the load to the warp drive, not to actually make it easier.

[Alyeska]

What about this posibility? Starship A uses Object B to propel itself forward. Starship A then uses a forcefield to deflect Object B left or right into waiting collectors.

This will also alter the course of starship A, left or right.

Starship A does not latch itself onto Object B, but uses Object Bs momentum to trap it by diverting it sideways into a waiting collector.

The act of diverting it sideways requires force, which must have an equal and opposite reaction, hence starship A does, by necessity, "latch itself onto object B" in the process of diverting it. And unless the collector is left behind as well, the act of grabbing the collector will have the exact same effect as the act of grabbing object B itself. Either way, you've got to leave something behind.

Or would the impacting of Object B on the forcefield that is connected to Starship A act as a neutralizing force to the original momentum?

No. If I hit your car with my car, I am actually hitting tiny electromagnetic forcefields which repel your atoms from mine. The use of forcefields does not alter the basic principles involved.

If that were the case then Starship A would have to use an interialess system to retrieve Object B, something like a transporter.

A transporter must still conserve momentum somehow, presumably by transferring it to the transport system itself. Nothing can violate conservation of momentum. Even an "inertial damper" must work by simply applying distributed counter-forces to the people on the ship so that they don't feel the acceleration; the momentum must still be dealt with by the ship itself.

That or after Object B has been utilized, a mass lightening field can be extended over Object B making the retrieval of it cause less impact on the ships interia.

If mass-lightening fields could be used in that way, you could generate infinite energy by simply mass-lightening an object in a gravity well, turning the field off, and then letting it fall, so you can collect the GPE. Repeat ad infinitum. Obviously, since they haven't started making giant gravity-engine power plants, this can't be how they work (besides, any scheme which leads to perpetual-motion machines must be flawed for that reason alone). You must not be able to effect permanent elimination of effects through use of the fields. In the case of "Deja Q", it was presumably being used only to shift part of the load to the warp drive, not to actually make it easier.

Ok, many thanks for answering all that. As you can see, I did not know about this aspect of the Newton laws.

Now back to my first idea. You said that the ship would move opposite of the way in which the objects were being diverted. What if the ship diverted them equally to both sides? Or would that just make the ship sit stationary?

[Darth Wong]

Ok, many thanks for answering all that. As you can see, I did not know about this aspect of the Newton laws.

All right; I sometimes forget that not everyone considers Newtonian kinematics to be elementary.

Now back to my first idea. You said that the ship would move opposite of the way in which the objects were being diverted. What if the ship diverted them equally to both sides? Or would that just make the ship sit stationary?

If you divert one object left and one object right (assuming equal mass/velocities), then you sit still. This would not be a particularly efficient propulsion system

[His Divine Shadow]

It'd be pretty fun to watch though...

[Master of Ossus]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up? Fact is we know that the Enterprise searched for such a thing in ST:6 and found a cloaked ship. We know that cloaking technology advanced and we know that they no longer search for ships using those means. The logical conclussion is that they can somehow mask the emissions. The burden of proof is not up to me to prove how, it is LOGICAL to assume that they do it through a means that we are yet to discover. The burden of proof lies on those to prove why the Federation doesn't search for the emissions. And using "Because they are stupid" is a MAJOR copout.

Wow. This sounds so much like a DarkStar claim it's not even funny. Alyeska, if they were to "suck that exhaust back up," it would nullify any force that ejecting that exhaust originally provided them with. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. A ship moves forward by ejecting something, which then pushes against the ship to move it forward. If you then take that exhaust (which is moving in the opposite direction), and suck it back up, you also take the force it originally offered and then nullify it. You just TOTALLY defeated your own argument with this ridiculous claim.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up? Fact is we know that the Enterprise searched for such a thing in ST:6 and found a cloaked ship. We know that cloaking technology advanced and we know that they no longer search for ships using those means. The logical conclussion is that they can somehow mask the emissions. The burden of proof is not up to me to prove how, it is LOGICAL to assume that they do it through a means that we are yet to discover. The burden of proof lies on those to prove why the Federation doesn't search for the emissions. And using "Because they are stupid" is a MAJOR copout.

Wow. This sounds so much like a DarkStar claim it's not even funny. Alyeska, if they were to "suck that exhaust back up," it would nullify any force that ejecting that exhaust originally provided them with. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. A ship moves forward by ejecting something, which then pushes against the ship to move it forward. If you then take that exhaust (which is moving in the opposite direction), and suck it back up, you also take the force it originally offered and then nullify it. You just TOTALLY defeated your own argument with this ridiculous claim.

You probably should have continued reading the thread before making that post.

[His Divine Shadow]

Can the ejecta just be cooled instead?

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh and with the AMRE fields of ST one would probably require less ejecta due to that.

[Alyeska]

Can the ejecta just be cooled instead?

I already theorized that. As Mike pointed out, to create cold, you must use more energy which causes more heat which negates the cooling... The other idea I had was to use a chemical cooling reaction to cool the ejecta.

[Alyeska]

Didn't Alyeska just say that he was wrong, Ossus?

Well... I admited that I didn't know that information. What Ossus did was read the thread and the moment he got to that point responded to it. Common thing really, even I have done that.

[His Divine Shadow]

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a jack-ass? Cooling units only INCREASE the overall heat output of a system; they function by moving heat from one place to another, not by actually destroying it. Are the laws of thermodynamics completely alien to you?

Yeah well can't they like then store this excess heat then, like with cooling water?

This would ofcourse be a finite system and would impose time limits on how long a ship could stay cloaked if so.

[Alyeska]

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a jack-ass? Cooling units only INCREASE the overall heat output of a system; they function by moving heat from one place to another, not by actually destroying it. Are the laws of thermodynamics completely alien to you?

Yeah well can't they like then store this excess heat then, like with cooling water?

This would ofcourse be a finite system and would impose time limits on how long a ship could stay cloaked if so.

Thats kinda my idea. Use something that cools down the ejecta or masks the heat signature of the ship. Sure it might not be very energy efficent, but it does allow for stealth. This is partially supported by cloaked ships having a lower top speed then uncloaked ships. They are utilizing more power to remain stealthed and can't put as much juice in the engines then normal.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Point still is, it shouldn't really work in combat situations: the exhaust will always be denser and warmer then space, and the ship it self will always radiate significantly more energy then the background radiation.

Back on topic though:

Warp might be useful for next-generation long-range fighters/bombers/gunboats, to allow them to make hit-and-fade attacks on locales w/ Interdictors, but I can't see them bothering to screw up the ISD design or make whole new capships just to include it. Borg-style transwarp is another story due to its superior speed (compared w/ warp), the fact it is (from appearances; no nacelles) internalized, I could see it being added as an extra in new capships to allow escape from interdiction fields; assuming of course that transwarp is not more sensitive to gravity then warp.

The "Medusa Gun" might be useful for limited applications, and would probably see use as highly-modified, miniturized device on specialty missions, but not generally deployed really.

The Scimitar's cloak would be useful (IMHO) on cooled, minimally conductive passive sensor "periscopes" (on telescoping poles, or better yet, towed on cables several hundred meters from the hull) for SW ships w/ SW cloaks. Periodically raise the "periscopes" momentarily; get a quick view while in a low-detectability situation; keep drifting. But that's still just a maybe, and a pretty sad, marginal use for the Trek cloak. Why? Because its shit.

The Reman warriors' disruptor rifles would be used in place of plasma torches on low-income backward Outer Rim worlds for basic construction.

[Ender]

Could they, say, generate a gravity well around the outside of the engine so that the stuff would shoot out, propelling the ship. but then be pulled off to the side, diffusing it, and making it like a large cloud? It would be like a smokescreen for tanks. You know something is in the general area, but you can't target it. Or would that violate stuff?

Forgive my ignorance, I haven't had physics in 4 years and the next course in it is not for a few months

[Durandal]

Could they, say, generate a gravity well around the outside of the engine so that the stuff would shoot out, propelling the ship. but then be pulled off to the side, diffusing it, and making it like a large cloud? It would be like a smokescreen for tanks. You know something is in the general area, but you can't target it. Or would that violate stuff?

Forgive my ignorance, I haven't had physics in 4 years and the next course in it is not for a few months

That would affect the ship as well and slow it down. It wouldn't really violate anything. It'd just be pointless. Also, enemy ships would be tipped off by the giant gravitational disturbance that's just moving around.

[Ender]

Could they, say, generate a gravity well around the outside of the engine so that the stuff would shoot out, propelling the ship. but then be pulled off to the side, diffusing it, and making it like a large cloud? It would be like a smokescreen for tanks. You know something is in the general area, but you can't target it. Or would that violate stuff?

Forgive my ignorance, I haven't had physics in 4 years and the next course in it is not for a few months

That would affect the ship as well and slow it down. It wouldn't really violate anything. It'd just be pointless. Also, enemy ships would be tipped off by the giant gravitational disturbance that's just moving around.

Slowing it down would be consistent with what we know about cloaked ships, and as for the gravity, I would think that the Quantum Singularity reactor they use would tip off others already, so either they don't scan for gravity, or the sinking of mass into subspace hides it.

[Illuminatus Primus]

First of all they can't make gravity wells that strong or they'd use them instead of impulse for propulsion, and second, a gravwell that strong would cause light bending behind the ship and slow it down and tidal forces = bad news for ships that needs "integrity fields."