Some ethical problems in SDF: Macross

[VF5SS]

Some discussion on another BBS spurred some debate over whether treatment of certain characters in the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross, namely Millia, constitutes what we call statutory rape. Basically it all started with some hecklers calling Mylene from Macross 7 a piece of jailbait, so I checked the age of her mother ,Millia, during the original series and found her to be only 15 years old which makes sense since Max Jenius himself is only 16. So in essence Millia is the essentially original Macross jailbait character.

Oddly enough, this brought about some really disturbing replies from other posters saying how Millia was born a mature adult and had fifteen years of life experience. Given the what we see in the series about Zentradi behavior, plus the information from the Macross Compendium about the Zentradi, if find this to be highly suspect that Millia or any other Zentradi of her standing could be considered a fully functional individual. The thing that disturbed me the most about the posts on the other BBS is that the arguments were quite similar to that of pedophiles and people who defend rape as part of their cultures with the lame excuse that Zentradi are "aliens," which is a dirty lie.

The Compendium described the average Zentradi as...

A giant humanoid race created by Protoculture for proxy warfare. The average Zentradi are five times the size of Earth Humans. Before the Zentradi and modern Humans made contact, the average Zentradi had the equivalent intelligence of Human primary school children. Since their exposure to Human society and knowledge, their potential intelligence has been shown to be higher.

Now given this information, can you really say that a human who has lived for fifteen years in a teenager's body with the intelligence of a child can be considered a mature individual?

Consider how in the show that Max basically railroaded Millia into marrying him. She had no idea what marriage was or what it eventually entailed (especially with a guy like Max "skirt chaser" Jenius). Also recall that male and female Zentradi are not allowed to interact with each other. Even the whole concept of having a child was new to her.

So essentially what I'm asking here is that given the circumstances in Macross (or something similar) would it be reasonable to declare someone born into a fully developed body with the mind of a child as a mature person? Does a certain amount of time spent living as a human being make you more mature even with developmental handicaps?

Also I should note that for the life of me I can't find or remember how long it takes to clone a Zentradi. The series and movies mentions that they are manufactured but I don't recall a time table. So it is possible that a character such as Millia may be even younger in terms of life experience.

[That NOS Guy]

You've been surfing /m/, haven't you?

That's actually an interesting angle I never really thought about before. I think the best way to put that into a daily life perspective would be having by asking if an 15 year-old emancipated girl with the mental capability of a 9 year-old can give proper consent. I'm actually curious to see the result of such a legal circumstance.

[VF5SS]

Actually the discussion comes from Macrossworld.com. Unfortunately the people who frequent that BBS aren't quite as intelligent as I would prefer.

Honestly it makes Millia's behavior in Macross 7 make a lot more sense. Especially considering that she had seven kids with Max. No wonder she wanted some time away from him.

[That NOS Guy]

Actually the discussion comes from Macrossworld.com. Unfortunately the people who frequent that BBS aren't quite as intelligent as I would prefer.

Ah, I used to go there. I present Agent One as a case-in-point as to why I stopped going.

Honestly it makes Millia's behavior in Macross 7 make a lot more sense. Especially considering that she had seven kids with Max. No wonder she wanted some time away from him.

I always thought that was because they were both workaholics who had a habit of driving each other nuts personally. Then again, when the world population is reduced to the low millions I can't imagine that a couple having seven kids isn't neccessarilly out of line.

[VF5SS]

They banned Agent One I think. Man that guy was a dick and a half.

Well I think part of the reason why she felt Max was holding her back might have been all those years spent having kids. Millia also seemed to get pretty flustered when Mylene told her that she was some kind of a monster for looking so good after having seven kids.

Probably the best example of Millia's lack of maturity is that her solution to being beaten by Max in battle is to find him and kill him.

[ZShade]

It's weird, a couple of days ago, a friend and I were discussing Milia's bout of insanity in pushing Mylene to get married at 14-15, but we never thought about how old she was when she married Max. It makes me wonder if she pushed the rest of her daughters the same way.

I'm not really sure what to think about this. I agree that Max took advantage of Milia after that goofy knife fight. He comes across as a guy who liked to chase girls but didn't have any experience in what happens after he caught them. He was 16, of course, and reportedly tried to use his deep voice as an asset in his 'girl hunt.'

On the other hand, he married her right away, was almost always patient with her, and has apparently been faithful for 37 years as of Dynamite 7. And it's not like he kept her barefoot and in the kitchen in-between her six pregnancies, Milia always kept her skills up to date, even after becoming City 7 mayor.

So while his actions after beating her for the second time are unethical, I think she's damn lucky that it was him who beat her. Someone else might not have been understanding, and she might have wound up little better than a slave.

I'm going to have to think about this some more. Some of this could be used as some pretty dark story elements in a RPG I was helping plan out. It would be interesting if Kawamori acknowledged this, and released a story where M7-era Max wonders if he did the right thing, all those years ago.

[Uraniun235]

Milia's supposed to be fifteen years old??

[ZShade]

Yeah, she's the same age as Minmay. If that doesn't put things into context, what does?

[Vendetta]

Also I should note that for the life of me I can't find or remember how long it takes to clone a Zentradi.

If it's anything similar to the Micloning process, (And that would require creating a very complex system of neural connections to preserve personality and memory, whereas a "super-IVF" process for mixing compatible genes for required roles wouldn't.) It probably doesn't take very long. They can definitely grow bodies from scratch during micloning, and when the spies return from Macross they are returned to normal before debriefing, so it can't take too long.

It's even possible that Zentraedi are created as adolescents with some basic combat or tactical programming built in. (They clearly don't know what the fuck a baby is, so likely don't have any memories themselves of growing up from being one)

[Uraniun235]

I just finished watching that series today. I've heard about how young the characters supposedly are, and frankly it just seems wacky to me because they never struck me as that young. (That, and the whole "what the fuck would a teenager be doing commanding a fighter squadron" thing) From my perspective as someone who's only recently been introduced to Macross, it's like the producers decided to take the whole cast and shift their age down by a few years for some wacky reason.

I mean I guess if I think about it enough I could probably come up with ways in which if I look at it from the right perspective the characters suddenly start to "make more sense" as really young... but honestly given that I enjoyed the series I'd prefer to stick with my current "I don't think they should be that young so I'm just going to pretend they're older than what the producers say they are " position.

[ShadowSonic]

It's a Japanese Mecha show, of course the cast mostly have to be adolescents...

[Uraniun235]

I prefer to think of it as a soap opera with transforming F-14s!

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It's even possible that Zentraedi are created as adolescents with some basic combat or tactical programming built in. (They clearly don't know what the fuck a baby is, so likely don't have any memories themselves of growing up from being one)

Well specifically considering the fact the Zentraedi didn't know what children were, I figured them being grown (or "born") as adults (or adolescents in the particular case) was a given that was all but flat-out stated in the series.

[tim31]

Jeez, until just now I thought Milia was twice that age, but for some reason I had the impression that zentraedi aged slower. Can't imagine why. Better go warm up the dvd player...

[That NOS Guy]

I just finished watching that series today. I've heard about how young the characters supposedly are, and frankly it just seems wacky to me because they never struck me as that young. (That, and the whole "what the fuck would a teenager be doing commanding a fighter squadron" thing) From my perspective as someone who's only recently been introduced to Macross, it's like the producers decided to take the whole cast and shift their age down by a few years for some wacky reason.

Well, in Macross Zero Fokker makes a mention that all the new pilots are so young (like barely 18). Apparently the unification wars really took a toll on humanity.

[VF5SS]

From my perspective as someone who's only recently been introduced to Macross, it's like the producers decided to take the whole cast and shift their age down by a few years for some wacky reason.

Well, it's in the theme song.

Character in anime are generally given an age relative to their target audience. For example, characters in Macross Plus are reported to in their early 20's. Also correct me if I am wrong, but don't kids in Japan get bumped out the door pretty early on?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I believe that there's definitely a push towards Japanese teenagers being mature and accepting responsibility when they're still somewhat young.

[Uraniun235]

From my perspective as someone who's only recently been introduced to Macross, it's like the producers decided to take the whole cast and shift their age down by a few years for some wacky reason.

Well, it's in the theme song.

While I'm totally cool with subtitled dialogue I generally am not entertained at all by watching translated lyrics go by on the screen, so I had no idea it was in there until now.

[The_Last_Rebel]

It's been a long time since I saw Robotech, but Max and Mirya seemed a bit older than 15-16 years old. Their voices certainly sounded like those of people in their late teens/early 20s. Mirya definitely didn't sound like a little girl. She was a hardened combat veteran and leader of an elite fighter squadron after all.

As far as the age of the pilots go, I have heard that a few air forces, such as Israel's, have allowed at one time or another fighter pilots as young as 16.

[VF5SS]

Robotech does not apply to this discussion.

Millia may be a combat hardened veteran, but she has the intelligence of a little girl. Even if we discount the courtship of Millia, there still exists billions of Meltrans who are in a similar situation. This is a darker side of the aftermath of culture shock.

Macross 7 actually dealt with the effects of culture shock on a fleet of Meltrans in the extra episode, "Fleet of the Strongest Women." His singing turned them all into giddy groupies.

[McC]

So essentially what I'm asking here is that given the circumstances in Macross (or something similar) would it be reasonable to declare someone born into a fully developed body with the mind of a child as a mature person? Does a certain amount of time spent living as a human being make you more mature even with developmental handicaps?

Milia's 15 years old. Whatever additional arguments one piles on top, that's a constant factor here. She does have 15 years of life experience, even if that life is strictly regimented and military. She's obviously an extremely gifted 15-year old, given that she's an ace pilot. There's also some question as to how much programming she's "built" with.

There's also a lot of ambiguity as to what is meant by "primary school children" -- this can be anything from a six year old to a twelve year old. There's also a lot of ambiguity as to what this "equivalent intelligence" refers to -- are they measuring intelligence in reference to factual knowledge, mental acuity, reasoning skills, social knowledge? The Zentradi performance across these categories is going to vary wildly, though each one can be called "intelligence."

Continuing with the list of ambiguous things, there's a large ambiguity as to what is meant by "maturity." Milia may have the "intelligence of a primary school child," but she also has 15 years of solid experience in a highly regimented social environment in which military-grade interdependence is required. Acknowledging and understanding this sort of interdependence can itself give rise to a kind of maturity (i.e. group before self, do what's best for the group, follow orders, etc.), which would mark Milia as being more mature than most humans her age. Assume your average Macross pilot starts at 15 or so -- she therefore has the equivalent military experience of a 30-year old veteran.

So, here we have an individual who has spent 15 years as a highly successful, very talented military combat pilot. She has significant deficits in the realm of social development as it applies to human society, but significantly more experience than most humans in the realm of achieving team-oriented objectives. Which brings it back to this:

the arguments were quite similar to that of pedophiles and people who defend rape as part of their cultures with the lame excuse that Zentradi are "aliens," which is a dirty lie.

I hate to say it, but this "alien" argument isn't without merit in this case -- Milia and all Zentradi have such a radically different upbringing from humans that trying to make direct comparisons and asking questions of maturity become very difficult prospects. I find it unlikely that anyone would argue that a 30-year old human combat veteran was an immature individual, but by the same token those first 15 years spent learning "society" aren't present -- because they don't need to be.

Yes, Milia will certainly be lacking in understanding the customs of human society -- she was, demonstrably so. But she's also got ingrained in her military-level discipline, which I think would result in rapid acclimation to human culture with only minimal guidance. Through Max, whose intentions were I think fairly honorable (his first move wasn't to try to get in her pants -- it was to ask her to marry him; she may not have understood the gravity of such a proposal, but he certainly did), she certainly had more than "minimal" guidance.

So! In conclusion, I'd say that the whole situation was very ethically ambiguous, but leaning towards acceptable rather than unacceptable, if only for the oddity of trying to compare a Zentradi's level of "development" to that of a human.

Also, a note on chronology here for those interested:
2009 November: Debut of Milia
2010 January 29: Max and Milia meet and marry shortly thereafter.
2010 July: Komilia is conceived (assuming 9 month gestation).
2011 March: Komilia is born.

So, going by that, there appears to be 5 months or so between marriage and trying to conceive a child. Ample enough time to learn about what it entails. Whether or not Milia's military experience will help or hinder her as a mother...that's its own topic, I guess.

[VF5SS]

Honestly I would hesitate to call the Zentradi military "disciplined" if someone like Kamjin is allowed to thrive. Probably the biggest difference to the UN Spacy is that Zentradi are born as a part of the whole Zentradi war machine. Mostly I see Zentradi as being there to push the buttons, pull the levels, and simply exist as living subservient to their jobs. Which is why I interpret the "intelligence of primary school children" as meaning people who can follow instructions and think creatively only when the need arises. They seem ill-equipped to deal with new situations.

[McC]

Honestly I would hesitate to call the Zentradi military "disciplined" if someone like Kamjin is allowed to thrive.

The flamboyant/rogue/undisciplined military officer is a staple of fiction, and isn't entirely without precendent in reality (Custer springs to mind). He is certainly the exception rather than rule -- consider how he's regarded by Vrlitwhai. He is an extreme measure, unto himself, because he's such a loose cannon.

Probably the biggest difference to the UN Spacy is that Zentradi are born as a part of the whole Zentradi war machine. Mostly I see Zentradi as being there to push the buttons, pull the levels, and simply exist as living subservient to their jobs. Which is why I interpret the "intelligence of primary school children" as meaning people who can follow instructions and think creatively only when the need arises. They seem ill-equipped to deal with new situations.

Call it as you like. I tend to think an ancient warfaring society doesn't stick around long unless it's good at what it does. I think the implication from the Compendium is a bit off-base, though. It's entirely unreasonable to suppose that the Zentradi reach a certain level of development and then just stop. As they accumulate life experience, they're going to continue to develop -- period. The snippet from the Compendium suggests that meeting humans "awakens" some developmental capacity; it really only just exposes them to an avenue for development they don't regularly pursue.

In any case, going back to your original premise, I don't think the youth and inexperience of Max/Milia is an enormous issue -- unless you want to call into question the ethics behind allowing human individuals who definitely indicate intellectual and emotional immaturity despite physically maturity to wed (I'm referring to Bubba Joe and Lizzy Sue who have the intellectual capability of a toddler, but decide to get married anyway) as well. Milia's "maturity" is arguable, but I'm inclined to believe it's better than most humans or "marrying" age.

[Uraniun235]

Yes, Milia will certainly be lacking in understanding the customs of human society -- she was, demonstrably so.

"Hey can I hold your baby?"
"No, go make your own!"
""

[VF5SS]

"Hey can I hold your baby?"
"No, go make your own!"
""