Evolution revisited

[TheLemur]

As George Carlin said, it isn't nature who is in trouble. It's us who are in fucking hot water. The Earth went along quite happily doing its own thing for near 5 billion years before we turned up.

The biggest danger to "nature" as we conventionally think of it is that we'll do something stupid and blow up the planet. See Nick Bostrom's list of existential risks.

But nothing humanity can current do will be noticable as damaging in a million or two years.

If we cooked up a supervirus that interfered with the mechanism of ATP synthase or something equally basic to life, we could very well drive the vast majority of this planet's species into extinction, which would be very noticeable in a million or two years.

The Earth went along quite happily

Happily? Have you looked in a biology textbook lately? The life of an average animal on Earth can hardly be described as happy. Humans during the Bronze Age had a life expectancy of around 17, one-fourth of what is normally possible with medicine; other species are probably similar. Animals had to deal with starvation, all kinds of diseases, predators, physical violence, heat, cold, you name it. We invented all this civilization stuff for a reason.

[Admiral Valdemar]

The biggest danger to "nature" as we conventionally think of it is that we'll do something stupid and blow up the planet. See Nick Bostrom's list of existential risks.

I find the most common argument from the Laymen is nuclear war killing everything from nuclear winter. It's an interesting idea, until you realise we can't throw around that much megatonnage even if we wanted to and a cobalt bomb is likely not going to achieve intended effects either.

If we cooked up a supervirus that interfered with the mechanism of ATP synthase or something equally basic to life, we could very well drive the vast majority of this planet's species into extinction, which would be very noticeable in a million or two years.

I doubt the ability of such a virus to propagate even if it was doable. The best example in nature we have is HIV and there are weaknesses we could exploit, though to be frank, I think it's as perfect a natural virus can be.

No, the best we can do is what we're doing now. Until the laws Diebold brought up come into play, we'll pollute and dig up every last resource until we snuff it and the rest of the biosphere not rugged enough goes down with us.

Happily? Have you looked in a biology textbook lately? The life of an average animal on Earth can hardly be described as happy. Humans during the Bronze Age had a life expectancy of around 17, one-fourth of what is normally possible with medicine; other species are probably similar. Animals had to deal with starvation, all kinds of diseases, predators, physical violence, heat, cold, you name it. We invented all this civilization stuff for a reason.

You'll notice I said Earth. Not life. And most certainly not humans.

[Phantasee]

Um. Interesting points. I'll probably get this written out tomorrow, I'll let you dissect it, and then it should be ready to fire off in time for Saturday's paper.

I like the point that while humans are natural, their actions are not. That might end up being the centre piece.

[Surlethe]

I like the point that while humans are natural, their actions are not. That might end up being the centre piece.

You'll want to be very careful about defining "natural". Human actions are just as natural as the behaviors and actions of wolverines or foxes or birds or insects.

[B5B7]

So perhaps he can say that whilst human actions are natural, they are not bound by the natural world. That is to say, they are not mere responses [confined by that which is provided directly by nature] to the environment that we share with other lifeforms, but that humans have the ability of manipulation of nature to a degree beyond that of other animals such that it is a difference of kind for practical purposes as to make us para-natural.

Clumsy wording, but that word 'nature' is a beast to handle.

[Rye]

Everything that exists has a nature. Humans have a nature. Artificial things have a nature. Artificial things are human-caused objects and phenomena that would not happen without humans (or equivalent species) being there. Humans are artificially altering the climate and it will likely be bad for humans and many of the other living things on the planet. We presumably don't want that which is why we should be concerned.

Seems straightforward to me.

[Darth Wong]

I'll bet that the people who were killed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius must have been thinking "Well, this can't possibly hurt us. It's natural!" Oh wait, they weren't modern right-wing idiots.

[The Original Nex]

Technically, Global Warming does not 'adversely affect nature'. It would, however, greatly harm human civilization and alot of other species.

I'm curious about this. What are you defining as an adverse effect on nature? What is the threshold for these effects or are you saying that it is impossible to adversely affect nature?

I don't mean to bait, it's just that your phrasing is a touch ambiguous.

Oh, it's entirely theoretically possible to adversrely affect nature. But nothing humanity can current do will be noticable as damaging in a million or two years.

'Nature' is a very, very big place.

Heh. Reminds me of a George Carlin sketch:

We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the fucking planet?

I'm getting tired of that shit. Tired of that shit. I'm tired of fucking Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a shit about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are fucked. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

We're going away. Pack your shit, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...asshole.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.

Perhaps not entirely, scientifically accurate, but this, like so much else of what this man says, rings true.

As far as the nut who wrote the letter goes, in a way he's inadvertantly right; we aren't adversely affecting "nature". We are adversely affecting nature AS WE KNOW IT. The Earth will rebound after we continue this mass extinction and destroy ourselves, just as it did after the Permian, and the Triassic, and the Cretaceous. And some new form of life will come about and evolve to fill the nitches that we rendered void when our actions killed all the modern species. Nature will go on. OUR nature will have served its time.

[The Original Nex]

Ghetto Edit:

Of course, that doesn't mean we should necesarily resign ourselve to our destruction. We, like all species, are fighting for survival, even if we go about it in a very different way. If fighting global warming and saving the edangered species helps save OUR species, then that is how we should act.