General Order 24

[brianeyci]

The guy who played Degra and the one sloth guy did a decent job, though.

Of course they did a good job with what they had, almost everybody did. The guy from Quantum Leap, Shran, Jolene Blalock's a better actor than Jeri Ryan, etc etc etc. The only lack of acting talent was maybe the black guy and Hoshi, I thought their facial expressions were way too bland, but it's not like they were asked to carry the show.

It's really too bad.

[Starglider]

The Xindi had gone through a civil war which wiped out one of their subspecies and destroyed their homeworld (as in, blasted to rubble).

Bastard Enterprise producers wiped out the only species that I actually really wanted to see - sci-fi is chock full of reptilian avians, insectiod aliens and to a lesser extent felinoid and amphibian species. But do we ever get to see birdlike sapients, or flying sapients in general? Nooo, because that would be too much effort, needs serious special/visual effects and there's less handy source material for the writers to rip off. Though the Skorr from TAS were pretty cool (clearly too cool to make it into the main cannon).

[ShadowSonic]

Well, I did like seeing the Xindi-Aquatics, are they the first on-screen Aquatic race we've seen in Trek or are there those I missed?

[Starglider]

Well, I did like seeing the Xindi-Aquatics, are they the first on-screen Aquatic race we've seen in Trek or are there those I missed?

Depends if you count the post-human salamanders from 'Threshold'. Pretty ships, but I still think the Abyss aliens would kick their aquatic asses

Damn, despite nearly ten years debating sci-fi on the Internet it looks like I still haven't kicked the habit of mistyping 'canon' as 'cannon'.

[Darth Servo]

Well, I did like seeing the Xindi-Aquatics, are they the first on-screen Aquatic race we've seen in Trek or are there those I missed?

Would the friends of the humpback whale from ST4: TVH count?

Depends if you count the post-human salamanders from 'Threshold'. Pretty ships, but I still think the Abyss aliens would kick their aquatic asses

Oh no. You've just started a new vs. debate.

By the way, did you ever see the director's cut of 'The Abyss'?

[Darth Wong]

It's hard to imagine how an aquatic race could have developed technology. Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

[Bounty]

It's hard to imagine how an aquatic race could have developed technology. Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

It gets better: they don't have opposable thumbs and need weeks to make a decision about anything.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's hard to imagine how an aquatic race could have developed technology. Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

There was a thread on this a year or so back and there was additional hurdle that came up. The kind of stone (obsidian, etcetera) that our ancestors used in their early tool using days is also hard to come by underwater.

[ShadowSonic]

It's hard to imagine how an aquatic race could have developed technology. Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

It gets better: they don't have opposable thumbs and need weeks to make a decision about anything.

Well, I haven't seen Ent S3 for w hile, is the "they take a long time making decisions" thing something that's always been a trait of theirs, or is that just something they did at the present time?

As for the "no thumbs" thing, there was a discussion on that in the IMDB forum for ENT, someone mentioned that he did see them with thumbs and hands on their flippers, it's just hard to see most of the time because we're never given a look at those parts of their body.

As for the tools thing, maybe there was a similar substance to obsidian on Xindus that existed underwater that they used. They don't have to make everything out of the same stuff we made our tools out of.

[ShadowSonic]

Okay, I checked at Memory-Alpha. It's weird, some of the Aquatics look like they DO have thumbs, while others don't. And the conceptual drawing of the Aquatics their designer did shows them with thumbs.

So either we just didn't get a very good look at them, or it's a on-and-off mistake the CGI crew made, giving some of them thumbs and the others no thumbs.

[Starglider]

Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

2,000 degree underwater flares do exist. It does seriously stretch plausibility to imagine that there would be a natural source of the required chemicals, but it's not impossible that some kind of life would store them up naturally in tissues. The electricity hurdle is less serious, it just needs adequate insulation, even glass tubes full of saltwater would work for initial experiments. Underwater metal refining is going to be really tough though - reducing metal ores underwater sounds pretty much impossible with little or no pre-existing tech. The only thing that would work is electrolysis. Maybe if you could harness some other native lifeform with credibility-stretching amounts of bioelectricity.

A more credible scenario might be that a really big spacecraft crashed into their world, and served as the initial source of refined metal and technical inspiration to get their civilisation going.

[Darth Wong]

Underwater metal refinement, electricity, and an industrial revolution without combustion would have been serious hurdles to overcome.

2,000 degree underwater flares do exist. It does seriously stretch plausibility to imagine that there would be a natural source of the required chemicals, but it's not impossible that some kind of life would store them up naturally in tissues. The electricity hurdle is less serious, it just needs adequate insulation, even glass tubes full of saltwater would work for initial experiments. Underwater metal refining is going to be really tough though - reducing metal ores underwater sounds pretty much impossible with little or no pre-existing tech. The only thing that would work is electrolysis. Maybe if you could harness some other native lifeform with credibility-stretching amounts of bioelectricity.

Those ideas may be clever but they also require a certain pre-existing level of technology and science, which is the hurdle we're trying to overcome. It's one thing to say that one might be able to make something work with modern know-how, but quite another to suggest that ignorant primitives could discover it despite those limitations. We eventually discovered burning phosphorous, but only after millenia of burning things that were a lot easier to find and light up, like wood and fossil fuels.

A more credible scenario might be that a really big spacecraft crashed into their world, and served as the initial source of refined metal and technical inspiration to get their civilisation going.

Even that seems rather doubtful. You could crash a spacecraft into Ancient Rome and probably have little or no effect on technological development, and they were a lot farther along than an aquatic species would be.

The only plausible scenario is that the aquatic species was actually designed by someone somehow, ie- an already-existing highly advanced society they took an existing aquatic species and made it far more intelligent, then gave them education and technology which they were able to work with.

[Starglider]

Those ideas may be clever but they also require a certain pre-existing level of technology and science, which is the hurdle we're trying to overcome... The only plausible scenario is that the aquatic species was actually designed by someone somehow.

Agree on both points. You may be able to wiggle around the later requirement by postulating an amphibious species that developed to a reasonable level by putting all their industry above ground, then have their planet suffer from some horrible climatic crisis that raised the sea level enough to force them to move it all underwater. In fact AFAIK that's exactly what happened on Kamino, though depending on the exact timeline they may have been able to go straight to those stilt cities without ever having to do serious industry underwater.

Which reminds me, flying whales - really silly, but they look like a lot of fun to ride.

[Darth Ruinus]

Ah, shit! The Trekkie is back, and Trekkier than ever!

ok, I know that in the episode Conundrum where they meet those uh guys with lasers on their ships (the one where they say they wont even pierce the navigational shield or something along those lines) they still order the forward shields to be raised to maximum, but TheRedFear came back with this

"Oh and for whoever mentioned Conundrum a while ago, you might consider actually WATCHING the episode before you try and use it to make a point. If you had, you'd know they were brainwashed into beleiving that despite their vastly inferior laser technology, these Aliens were their mortal enemies, so they took precautions accordingly, based on the assumption they must have SOME kind of weapon that could pose a threat, like a memory-wiping one."

I see a problem with that argument, if they ARE brainwashed, and they still remember that lasers cant pierce the nav shield why would they still raise the shields to maximum?

Also another problem with this argument, is the fact that the Trek ship (I dont know which one, I forget which ship goes to which series since I dont watch Trek) had just scanned the Lysian ships (is that their name?) and they KNEW they were only equipped with lasers and minimal shielding, so how could they possibly fear "SOME kind of weapon that could pose a threat, like a memory-wiping one."

Also a memory-wiping weapon!?!?!?
I dont watch Trek alot, or even at all, just a couple of VOY eps, but, Trek doesnt actually have memory wiping weapons does it? that would be stupid.

[brianeyci]

Darth Ruinus I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say.

I smell troll.

[Darth Ruinus]

troll? I dont understand, if I am doing something then please explain and I will stop

technically, I am asking how to refute this guys argument, if anyone has a way to do it.

[Starglider]

Trek has telepathy and powerful telepathic weapons (e.g. stone of gol). My general contempt for telepathy aside, given the known existence of powerful telepaths in ST the characters might well consider a long range memory wiping weapon plausible. Trek shields are worthless against telepathic attacks though, so that isn't much of a rationale for raising shields. I'd also note that the Ent-D raised its shields in 'The Inner Light', but it didn't stop an otherwise low-tech probe from messing about with Picard's memories via a 'nucleonic particle beam' (which seemed to surprise the rest of the crew).

[Isolder74]

actually the no lasers thing comes from the episode, The Outragious Okana.

In context we see two ships that do not appear much larger than a runabout, targeting lasers onto the Enterprise. Picard and the crew scoffs at the weapons as not even able to penetrate the navigation shields against micrometeorites. But that's like saying that because its a cannon, and since an AK-47 will do nothing against a porthole on an Iowa battleship that any cannon will fo nothing to an Iowa regaurless of size.

or I can point a laser pointer at you and it won't even burn your hair, then all lasers will do no harm to you.

[Wyrm]

The memory-wiping weapon does come from Conundrum, as the Trektard says. However, just because a weapon can leap past a low-powered shield like ones availible in ST doesn't mean it'll be able to leap past shields that are much more powerful, such as those availible to SW.

Not that Conundrum made any sense whatsoever. I mean, if one of the Sutteran dudes could erase the memory of a completely alien species (group of species) past shields availible to the Federation, why couldn't they erase Lysian memories for an easy win? No, the "weapons no more advanced" bullshit doesn't fly; erasing one's memories (especially if that can extend to training) is a great way to sow fear and disorganization into another person's army. Not being able to identify friend or foe? Friendly fire? Sounds devistating to me.

[Darth Servo]

However, just because a weapon can leap past a low-powered shield like ones availible in ST

Or have all sorts of known vulnerabilities like the tendency to drop when exposed to certain gases. Hell, STANDARD WEAPONS ignore ST shields when set to the right "frequency".

[Isolder74]

The memory-wiping weapon does come from Conundrum, as the Trektard says. However, just because a weapon can leap past a low-powered shield like ones availible in ST doesn't mean it'll be able to leap past shields that are much more powerful, such as those availible to SW.

Not that Conundrum made any sense whatsoever. I mean, if one of the Sutteran dudes could erase the memory of a completely alien species (group of species) past shields availible to the Federation, why couldn't they erase Lysian memories for an easy win? No, the "weapons no more advanced" bullshit doesn't fly; erasing one's memories (especially if that can extend to training) is a great way to sow fear and disorganization into another person's army. Not being able to identify friend or foe? Friendly fire? Sounds devistating to me.

It seems that the Lysians must have developed countermeasures against the weapon. Or perhaps they were just naturally Immune. Whatever the case the guy who pulled the trick did it because his side could not take ot the other side in a normal means so they came up with a hairbrained scheme to hijack the starship and crew placing on of their own as first officer on the ship. The idea is hairbrained in that the ship they hijack can take out their enemies if it doesn't work then they might blast you to bits. Its lucky for them they did it to Picard rather then say a Klingon ship or a even Kirk who might have gone and taken them out once the ruse was discovered.

[Darth Servo]

It seems that the Lysians must have developed countermeasures against the weapon. Or perhaps they were just naturally Immune. Whatever the case the guy who pulled the trick did it because his side could not take ot the other side in a normal means so they came up with a hairbrained scheme to hijack the starship and crew placing on of their own as first officer on the ship. The idea is hairbrained in that the ship they hijack can take out their enemies if it doesn't work then they might blast you to bits. Its lucky for them they did it to Picard rather then say a Klingon ship or a even Kirk who might have gone and taken them out once the ruse was discovered.

What are the chances of a super-powerful who can eliminate your enemy with one ship just happening to come along?

Why would anyone ever bother developing a weapon that in all likeliness won't even have the opportunity to be used when you could invest that time and resources into weapons that will actually work on your KNOWN ENEMY?

Why bother pissing off said uber powerful race in the first place? Imagine what would have happened if the Sutteran had used it on a KLINGON ship. Even IF the plan is successful and the Klingon ship does wipe out your enemy, what happens when the Klingon ship goes back home and learns they've been manipulated and used?

The Sutterans will be up the proverbial shit creek without the equally proverbial paddle.

[Isolder74]

It seems that the Lysians must have developed countermeasures against the weapon. Or perhaps they were just naturally Immune. Whatever the case the guy who pulled the trick did it because his side could not take ot the other side in a normal means so they came up with a hairbrained scheme to hijack the starship and crew placing on of their own as first officer on the ship. The idea is hairbrained in that the ship they hijack can take out their enemies if it doesn't work then they might blast you to bits. Its lucky for them they did it to Picard rather then say a Klingon ship or a even Kirk who might have gone and taken them out once the ruse was discovered.

What are the chances of a super-powerful who can eliminate your enemy with one ship just happening to come along?

Why would anyone ever bother developing a weapon that in all likeliness won't even have the opportunity to be used when you could invest that time and resources into weapons that will actually work on your KNOWN ENEMY?

Why bother pissing off said uber powerful race in the first place? Imagine what would have happened if the Sutteran had used it on a KLINGON ship. Even IF the plan is successful and the Klingon ship does wipe out your enemy, what happens when the Klingon ship goes back home and learns they've been manipulated and used?

The Sutterans will be up the proverbial shit creek without the equally proverbial paddle.

That was kind of my point. In that they were desperate to pull the stunt in the first place, shows that they didn't have the means to attack their enemy. It seems they used the Federations ask first policy to get themselves a foot in the door. once their man was on board it seems that they then edited the computer. Of course the thing did work on Data so it might have affected the computer as well.

Still show a massive lapse in security for the Federation and their computers when a race that has never even seen one before can dump, and remove, large amounts of info into/from the computer.

[Darth Servo]

That was kind of my point. In that they were desperate to pull the stunt in the first place, shows that they didn't have the means to attack their enemy.

They don't have the means to attack their enemy but the DO have the means to develop this ridiculous weapons that has a one-in-a-billion shot of working? Seems like they've got their priorities a little mixed up there.

[TimothyC]

The idea of neatly distinct, Earth-inspired Xindi groups was bad enough, but making the ugly ones that villains is too comic booky.

The guy who played Degra and the one sloth guy did a decent job, though.

Also were not the reptilian prosthetics the same as Saris' from Galaxy Quest?