Is Elfdart A Sexist Pig?

[Elfdart]

I thought of this as a result of Armor Pierce's thread about whether people find black women attractive and whether not finding black women attractive is inherently racist.

For the two or three of you on SDN who haven't heard, I'm a left-winger. I'm all for civil rights, gay rights, women's rights and most other left/liberal items. I'm all for women in the armed forces and any other job they qualify for. I also support birth control and abortion rights. On the other hand:

1) I hold the door for a woman, and not just the hot ones so I can get a better look at their legs and asses (though I do look).

2) I pick up the check on a date.

3) I like girlie mags and things like the Victoria's Secret catalog.

4) I read the feminist website Feministing and agree with most of what they write, but the only reason I ever looked at the site was because of a link in a picture of their main writer, Jessica Valenti, who is hot as hell and has an amazing rack (she's the brunette standing in front of Clinton).

5) I despise chick-flicks and once labeled singers like Sarah McLachlan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos, et al "Title IX Music".

6) My ability to ogle women is second to none and I don't hide it.

Among feminist friends and girlfriends I'm called a "knuckledragger", but in a teasing manner, not a hostile or angry one.

Since I don't buy into most "either/or" silliness and I don't think I'm an objective observer, I was curious if someone wanted to weigh the plusses and minuses and see where I am on balance. It's also a bit of a thought experiment about how to examine a person's attitudes as a whole.

Questions:

Does any of this constitute a sexist attitude?

If a person has some sexist attitudes, but on everything else is non-sexist, is that person a male chauvinist?

Am I the only person who can't understand the appeal of Sarah McLachlan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos, et al and believes it might have something to do with having a functioning set of balls?

Am I thinking about this too much?

[Invictus ChiKen]

FLY THE FLAG BROTHER AN KEEP THOSE GIRLS IN THERE PLACES!

[Darth Raptor]

If you're going to expand the definition of "male chauvinist" to include virtually every heterosexual man on the planet, it becomes a useless term. Yes, I can make a case for Elfdart's sexism just as one can make a case for Raptor's racism. But pragmatically, traits like these only become relevant when they become problematic. You being elected as president would be the single greatest victory for feminists in history, and I would unequivocally be the most black-friendly president yet. I think terms like "racist" and "sexist" are made entirely meaningless when they're used to include entirely harmless attitudes. After all, this makes you sexist for being heterosexual. So you like boobs? You're going to kick me out of your bed because I don't have boobs? What if I got the hormone shots? Oh, it's because I have a penis now? SEXIST!

[Darth Wong]

All heterosexuals and homosexuals are sexist, if only because they obviously discriminate on the basis of sex (only you bisexuals get off scot-free on that score).

But in the common sense of the term, "sexist" means that you're one of those assholes telling women what they can't or shouldn't do, even though you have no problem with men doing the same thing. Ogling women doesn't have anything to do with it.

[Surlethe]

Sounds like you're just a nice guy to be around, not a chauvinist, sexist pig. I mean, if I were a chick on a date with you, I'd be charmed when you held the door and tried to pick up the tab (although I'm sure my testicles seriously impair any insight I might have into the mysterious workings of the female mind). I also expect that you're courteous enough to permit a woman who insisted to pick up part of the tab, or to stop (overtly) ogling if she asked you not to, etc.

[RogueIce]

For the two or three of you on SDN who haven't heard, I'm a left-winger. I'm all for civil rights, gay rights, women's rights and most other left/liberal items.

I am shocked. Well and truely shocked.

1) I hold the door for a woman, and not just the hot ones so I can get a better look at their legs and asses (though I do look).

Do you also happen to hold the door for guys if they're fairly close behind you?

Nothing wrong with holding doors for the ladies of course, but if I were a guy and you let it close in my face, I'd certainly think you were a prick. Don't know if that would make you sexist or not though.

2) I pick up the check on a date.

Ain't nothing wrong with that, though I would personally prefer to have her offer to do so as well from time to time.

3) I like girlie mags and things like the Victoria's Secret catalog.

That's no worse than looking at porn, IMO. Well if anything it's far, far more tame.

4) I read the feminist website Feministing and agree with most of what they write, but the only reason I ever looked at the site was because of a link in a picture of their main writer, Jessica Valenti, who is hot as hell and has an amazing rack (she's the brunette standing in front of Clinton).

God damn, she is hot.

5) I despise chick-flicks and once labeled singers like Sarah McLachlan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos, et al "Title IX Music".

They're not my cup of tea either.

6) My ability to ogle women is second to none and I don't hide it.

All that proves is that you're a normal heterosexual male.

Does any of this constitute a sexist attitude?

I personally don't believe it does. Now if you think woman should all be at home "barefoot and pregnant" then yes, I'd certainly label you as a sexist. But looking at pretty women? Why the hell does that make you sexist?

Of course I have heard of those woman who think men are treating them like objects and all that other crap for looking. But I know woman look too. I have seen women look, I have been with women while they were looking, and I have heard far more than I wanted to hear from them describing why they were looking. Does that make them sexist too? Are they treating men like objects? I have never heard anyone accuse a woman of that (though I will accept it if someone has heard of it), but men seem to be the one to bear the brunt of it in my experience.

[Darth Wong]

It's really unfortunate that women associate overt sexual interest with sexism, because it's quite possible to be a pervert and an egalitarian at the same time. It is also quite possible to be incredibly sexist yet never ogle a woman in your entire life, as any Muslim imam can demonstrate for us.

[Ariphaos]

I have, on occasion, witnessed women walking into doors because they expected the men in front of them to hold it for them.

Not that the guys (or myself) were being pricks, just weren't interested in standing around for half a minute while they were busy strutting.

[Darth Wong]

The visual image of a woman walking face-first into a door while expecting some guy to open it for her is too funny for words.

[SirNitram]

The visual image of a woman walking face-first into a door while expecting some guy to open it for her is too funny for words.

I'll probably be rightfully flamed for this, but I've done this to a few young ladies. Specifically because they were stuck-up annoyances who took for granted everything gentlemanly I did, while getting in all the insults possible against me.

Petty? Yes. But it was a definate reminder that it is done as a courtesy.

[Metatwaddle]

1) I hold the door for a woman, and not just the hot ones so I can get a better look at their legs and asses (though I do look).

2) I pick up the check on a date.

These two, to me, are harmless. I'm personally not such a strong feminist that I equate "gentleman" with "patronizing asshole". Being nice to a girl in such ways, of course, doesn't give a guy the right to actually be a patronizing asshole later. It's completely his choice to be a gentleman, and it doesn't create any obligations on her part. So long as you recognize this, you're fine.

3) I like girlie mags and things like the Victoria's Secret catalog.

You mean there are straight guys that don't like these things?

4) I read the feminist website Feministing and agree with most of what they write, but the only reason I ever looked at the site was because of a link in a picture of their main writer, Jessica Valenti, who is hot as hell and has an amazing rack (she's the brunette standing in front of Clinton).

I'm really not sure what to make of this one. My instinct is to see a contradiction, but that may just be because the phrase "objectification of women" has been around me for too long and it's gotten burned into my subconscious.

Anyway, I suppose it doesn't make much of a difference how you arrived at that website. The fact that you read it and agree with many of their opinions says more than the fact that you arrived there because the writer was hot. At a glance, I'd say anyone who agrees with most of Feministing's positions is very unlikely to be sexist in what I consider the important ways. I mean, you obviously don't think women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

5) I despise chick-flicks and once labeled singers like Sarah McLachlan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos, et al "Title IX Music".

That's really just a matter of taste. I'm a girl, I hate chick flicks, but I like the singers you mentioned. To each his own. I don't think it's got a damn thing to do with sexism.

6) My ability to ogle women is second to none and I don't hide it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with "ogling" in and of itself. If you stop seeing women as human beings and see them only for their sexual value, then yeah, you're probably a bit of an asshole, and probably a frat brother too. But just seeing them as sexy human beings is fine. And anyway, nobody expects you to look into a girl's soul from across the room.

Among feminist friends and girlfriends I'm called a "knuckledragger", but in a teasing manner, not a hostile or angry one.

Well, that's sort of interesting. There may be more truth to this than they're saying, but I suppose you'd know best.

That said, you may annoy feminist friends by ignoring what a woman actually does - whether she's a writer, an entertainer, or whatever - and focusing instead on her physical appearance. That means if your feminist friends are discussing a certain actress's performance in a movie, and they ask you what you think, "she's hot" is not a very good answer.

In conclusion: I think your overall opinions on women's rights are what matter most here, and those strongly suggest that you're not at all sexist. The stuff that you mention is of secondary importance at most. Besides, calling all men who ogle women sexist would make the definition of sexism so broad as to be useless. Seeing women only for their physical appearance and sexual value (not that you necessarily do this) does imply some sort of sexism. However, it's probably much less damaging than the flavor of sexism that leads to women wearing burqas.

[Hillary]

I have, on occasion, witnessed women walking into doors because they expected the men in front of them to hold it for them.

Oh man - I am sitting at my desk giggling like a schoolgirl after reading that.

I'd have paid good money to see it.

On the OP, it's all about definitions. You are sexist, in the strictist definition of the word, simply for finding women more attractive than men.

However, if sexism is to have any meaning at all then the definition has to be narrowed. I tend to use it for someone who believes one sex is better and more deserving than the other(s) and treats them as such. Elfdart treats women differently (well, they are), but does not consider them as inferior to men. Therefore he doesn't qualify as sexist in my book.

Ps Jessica Valenti - nothing wrong with that

[Spoonist]

Voted "most likely".
You almost got a "maybe a little" but then you threw in this gem:

Am I the only person who can't understand the appeal of Sarah McLachlan, Fiona Apple, Tori Amos, et al and believes it might have something to do with having a functioning set of balls?quote]
If you actually think that musical taste has something to do with having a set of functional balls then you are more than likely to be a pig. Not because of your own preferences but rather because of what it implies of your prejudice of the cultural stereotype of others.

Am I thinking about this too much?

Yes.

[apocolypse]

I'll probably be rightfully flamed for this, but I've done this to a few young ladies. Specifically because they were stuck-up annoyances who took for granted everything gentlemanly I did, while getting in all the insults possible against me.

Petty? Yes. But it was a definate reminder that it is done as a courtesy.

No worries, I did the same at my job as well with one lady in particular. She basically demanded that I hold the door for her even though she wasn't near it, so I did. The next time we were in the same position, I looked at her, looked at the door, then let it go. My thing is, if I do something polite or courteous, it's because I want to or whatever other reason rather than because you demand it of me.

[Darth Servo]

The visual image of a woman walking face-first into a door while expecting some guy to open it for her is too funny for words.

I'll probably be rightfully flamed for this, but I've done this to a few young ladies. Specifically because they were stuck-up annoyances who took for granted everything gentlemanly I did, while getting in all the insults possible against me.

Petty? Yes. But it was a definate reminder that it is done as a courtesy.

The real problem I've experienced with holding a door open for someone is the next 50 people expect you to hold it for them too.

[Vendetta]

The real problem I've experienced with holding a door open for someone is the next 50 people expect you to hold it for them too.

Yeah, but you can let go "accidentally" in front of someone you don't like

[CmdrWilkens]

I think its been said a bit more eloquently by ohers but there is a line between realizing you have a sexual interest in women and seeing them ONLY as objects of sexual interest and I think that's the line between being a heterosexual male and a sexist one.

[Covenant]

The only thing I'd call into question is your equating a musical choice with balls, so really, I wouldn't say you're sexist or anything. I'd say, if anything, you're just thinking way too much about the restrictions put on a gender role. You can look at a woman and think she's attractive, and you can also at the same time respect her for an intelligent, capable professional--and have these be seperate. Do you honestly think women look at a 'hot' guy and think "Wow, what a capable professional learned person, who is also a male!"

Obviously not!

But when you start saying thus-and-so is too girly for a guy with functioning nards to enjoy, then you're being something else I don't know the word for, and it's just silly. Now, you can certainly call that behavior girly, but you shouldn't cast doubt into the rest of them.

So really, I'd just cast more doubt into your acceptance of male identity than female identity. You shouldn't equate an interest or attraction to women with sexism, or even to maleness. Lesbians are attracted to women, and they aren't men. Attraction is more or less irrelevent to the degree someone is or is not a man or a woman.

I may not like girly mags, but I wouldn't want someone to think I'm less of a guy because of it. That's much more offensive than not holding the door for someone!

[Elfdart]

The visual image of a woman walking face-first into a door while expecting some guy to open it for her is too funny for words.

I'll probably be rightfully flamed for this, but I've done this to a few young ladies. Specifically because they were stuck-up annoyances who took for granted everything gentlemanly I did, while getting in all the insults possible against me.

Petty? Yes. But it was a definate reminder that it is done as a courtesy.

Kinda like a waiter demanding a tip?

[Darth Servo]

The real problem I've experienced with holding a door open for someone is the next 50 people expect you to hold it for them too.

Yeah, but you can let go "accidentally" in front of someone you don't like

Not applicable when its a bunch of people you've never met before.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah, I'm pretty much tick-for-tack with everything Elfy said. That said, he's not a sexist, as neither am I. (Though my conventional heterosexual male opinions have caused counterculture types to wrongly accuse me of being sexist.) And fuck doing chivalry for women who demand it. If its required, its meaningless.

[Elfdart]

Yeah, I'm pretty much tick-for-tack with everything Elfy said. That said, he's not a sexist, as neither am I. (Though my conventional heterosexual male opinions have caused counterculture types to wrongly accuse me of being sexist.) And fuck doing chivalry for women who demand it. If its required, its meaningless.

Even if she has a great ass and holding the door gives you a perfect view?

[darthbob88]

Yeah, I'm pretty much tick-for-tack with everything Elfy said. That said, he's not a sexist, as neither am I. (Though my conventional heterosexual male opinions have caused counterculture types to wrongly accuse me of being sexist.) And fuck doing chivalry for women who demand it. If its required, its meaningless.

Even if she has a great ass and holding the door gives you a perfect view?

That's not chivalry, that's ogling. There's a difference.

[Lord Pounder]

I'm in the same boat Elfie. Though I'd say i'm a tad to the right of you politically. I remember once being at a left wing political parties conference once. Afterwards in the bar, where so much more real politics is done, I got to talking to a millitant femanist. She sat for ages bending my ear about how basically everything that ever went wrong is the fault of a man somewhere and she damanded not just the same pay as a man but more pay than a man because she could do a better job than her male colleages. By a certain point I was a little fed up and more than a little drunk so I asked her that if she believed in equal rights and all that shit how come she hadn't bought one drink the whole night despite me buying her half a fecking brewery. She was no impressed. In fact she called me a sexist pig and poured my pint over my head.

[Darth Fanboy]

We've figured it out. Elfdart IS BILL CLINTON.