Alternate History Scenario VII

[The Dark]

Going back a while, I'm not sure the T-34 would have been available in significant numbers. Until the Russians invaded and were repelled from the Nordic countries (don't remember exactly which, too tired to research), they still believed in the land battleship thoery of large, multi-turreted tanks.

Also, Necro, the "Sturmtiger" you show is the Sturmmorser, a mobile mortar unit with a 380mm rocket-assisted mortar. Decent for artillery, crap for anti-armor use. At most 18 constructed. Slow, relatively light armor, unmaneuverable. Gets assraped three ways from Sunday by an M3, let alone an M4.

[Raptor 597]

Yes, al you do is speed around it and it's one dead piece of worthless Nazi war machine in 1945.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yes, al you do is speed around it and it's one dead piece of worthless Nazi war machine in 1945.

Its more matter of wait for it to wait for it to use its one, then shoot the crew with your M3 grease gun when they dismount to reload.

[The Black Jesus]

i don't know about you, but i can feel the conflict~

but anyways, i know a good geopolitical analyst from my college, maybe he has the magic opinion

[Raptor 597]

Yes, al you do is speed around it and it's one dead piece of worthless Nazi war machine in 1945.

Its more matter of wait for it to wait for it to use its one, then shoot the crew with your M3 grease gun when they dismount to reload.

Yeah. Worthless for mobility. It did blow up a few walls on the East Front near Lake Balaton. Otherwise, thats it.

[Raptor 597]

Also my response too the Scenario. If Russia fights an effective German military it will be scretched shitless and be at it's weakest point. Even with superior numbers they will still go down too effective Allied Air Cover.

[The Black Jesus]

Also my response too the Scenario. If Russia fights an effective German military it will be scretched shitless and be at it's weakest point. Even with superior numbers they will still go down too effective Allied Air Cover.

i disagree

the number advantage is far more substantial than you realize cap'n

[Raptor 597]

Also my response too the Scenario. If Russia fights an effective German military it will be scretched shitless and be at it's weakest point. Even with superior numbers they will still go down too effective Allied Air Cover.

i disagree

the number advantage is far more substantial than you realize cap'n

Not when air superiorty destroys your attacking force. And due too Meteor's assembly production beginning in 1945 Soviet Air Forces are royally fucked over. Also, the USSR only had 3 railines of supllies going in so being supplied aganist a tough foe not some cracjed up Reich. It will be difficult too hold the lines much less keep th Juggernaut rolling. It's best hopes in war aganist Europe would be mainland with a load of casualties without America involved. With America they better sue for peace and get terms quick or the USSR might end up with a Capitalist Dog Regime.

[The Black Jesus]

Capitalist Dog Regime.

more like a hump happy poodle

but we're not keeping score here

[The Dark]

Also my response too the Scenario. If Russia fights an effective German military it will be scretched shitless and be at it's weakest point. Even with superior numbers they will still go down too effective Allied Air Cover.

i disagree

the number advantage is far more substantial than you realize cap'n

Not when air superiorty destroys your attacking force. And due too Meteor's assembly production beginning in 1945 Soviet Air Forces are royally fucked over. Also, the USSR only had 3 railines of supllies going in so being supplied aganist a tough foe not some cracjed up Reich. It will be difficult too hold the lines much less keep th Juggernaut rolling. It's best hopes in war aganist Europe would be mainland with a load of casualties without America involved. With America they better sue for peace and get terms quick or the USSR might end up with a Capitalist Dog Regime.

Shooting Stars will be available also, since some were deployed in Italy between V-E and V-J Days.

If Russia can break through Germany, France will fall rather easily (their government was even less efficient than the US government today). However, the Russian navy was rather pathetic, their air forces relied largely on Lend-Lease aircraft, which would not be available without the German attack on Russia. The MiG-3 and La-5 would be average early war fighters...unfortunately, they didn't appear until late war. The Il-2 Shturmovik is a very good ground attack aircraft, but would be easy prey for Hurricanes, Spitfires, Tempests, Typhoons, Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and possibly even Airacobras, Apaches, and Warhawks. Not to mention the Meteor and Shooting Star, along with the Vampire by the end of '45. Air superiority would allow for carpet bombing of area defenses before landings. Russian industry was still largely inefficient, and the US alone could outproduce the Soviet Union without the aid of Britain or the Continent. Given Midway and the Phillipines (assuming either no war with Japan or an island-hopping campaign), the US could easily have 35 carriers (including escort carriers) to support an amphibious invasion in the Russian East. Since Russia only survived against Germany because they pulled everything to the West, since Russia and Japan had a non-aggression agreement, this would stretch Russia beyond the breaking point in their defenses.

[Raptor 597]

i disagree

the number advantage is far more substantial than you realize cap'n

Not when air superiorty destroys your attacking force. And due too Meteor's assembly production beginning in 1945 Soviet Air Forces are royally fucked over. Also, the USSR only had 3 railines of supllies going in so being supplied aganist a tough foe not some cracjed up Reich. It will be difficult too hold the lines much less keep th Juggernaut rolling. It's best hopes in war aganist Europe would be mainland with a load of casualties without America involved. With America they better sue for peace and get terms quick or the USSR might end up with a Capitalist Dog Regime.

Shooting Stars will be available also, since some were deployed in Italy between V-E and V-J Days.

If Russia can break through Germany, France will fall rather easily (their government was even less efficient than the US government today). However, the Russian navy was rather pathetic, their air forces relied largely on Lend-Lease aircraft, which would not be available without the German attack on Russia. The MiG-3 and La-5 would be average early war fighters...unfortunately, they didn't appear until late war. The Il-2 Shturmovik is a very good ground attack aircraft, but would be easy prey for Hurricanes, Spitfires, Tempests, Typhoons, Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and possibly even Airacobras, Apaches, and Warhawks. Not to mention the Meteor and Shooting Star, along with the Vampire by the end of '45. Air superiority would allow for carpet bombing of area defenses before landings. Russian industry was still largely inefficient, and the US alone could outproduce the Soviet Union without the aid of Britain or the Continent. Given Midway and the Phillipines (assuming either no war with Japan or an island-hopping campaign), the US could easily have 35 carriers (including escort carriers) to support an amphibious invasion in the Russian East. Since Russia only survived against Germany because they pulled everything to the West, since Russia and Japan had a non-aggression agreement, this would stretch Russia beyond the breaking point in their defenses.

Yes. They could also manage a two front war considering 15% of all output went too the Pacific. Once Gerany was gne Stalin was also going too declare war on Japan as he did in 1945. But is resources would be far too strained and anyhing in Easter Soviet Territory wouldbe at Valdistock.

[Perinquus]

Can you imagine a sherman against a T-34-85? I can, and i can also see dead allies.

Happened in Korea and many others conflicts. M4's generally won. The 90mm rocket launcher ass raped em as well.

I suspect the M4 victories were a result of superior tank tactics and better trained crews, rather than the tank itself. The T34 was considered the finest tank of WWII until the German Panther showed up. It had thicker and better sloped armor than the Sherman, offered a lower silhouette, was faster, and had a heavier main gun.

Consider also that U.S. F86 Saber pilots scored an impressive 14 to 1 kill ratio over Chinese and North Korean pilots flying Mig 15s. However, there were a couple of squadrons of elite Soviet air force pilots with WWII combat experience flying also, and against them the ratio was pretty even. I think the tank vs. tank battles of Korea make for a similar pattern. With more competent leaders and tank crews, the T34 can outmatch the Sherman.

[Vympel]

Sherman's encountered IS-3's and T-34/85's near Bir Thamada in 1967. They defeated them easily. The Sherman could kill the IS-3 with flank and rear shot, blow of tracks and kill the crew via Spall.

But not with 75mm guns, Sea Skimmer. As I recall, those Shermans were significantly upgunned over WW2 (90 or 105mm guns, IIRC). The 75mm of the Panther had trouble with it (going from the numbers), let alone a puny 75mm short barrel pop-gun.

[Vympel]

Stop these Alternate History Threads. Put simply, I'm sorry to offend:

THEY'RE STUPID.

If you're going to try Alternate History, STEER CLEAR of WW2. You CAN'T argue weapons when the weapons of WW2 were a very PRODUCT of the war.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sherman's encountered IS-3's and T-34/85's near Bir Thamada in 1967. They defeated them easily. The Sherman could kill the IS-3 with flank and rear shot, blow of tracks and kill the crew via Spall.

But not with 75mm guns, Sea Skimmer. As I recall, those Shermans were significantly upgunned over WW2 (90 or 105mm guns, IIRC). The 75mm of the Panther had trouble with it (going from the numbers), let alone a puny 75mm short barrel pop-gun.

In 1967 the IDF was using 76mm gunned Sherman's.

This would be a logical upgrade of the Sherman even without war; it became apparent the 75mm was not enough in 1941 when plans for an up-gunned version got started. It would not have the priority it did. But then the US would also have a tank destroyer force that has a chance to get organized and enter combat as it was designed to rather then supporting infantry in small companies or platoons.

[Sea Skimmer]

i disagree

the number advantage is far more substantial than you realize cap'n

Not when air superiorty destroys your attacking force. And due too Meteor's assembly production beginning in 1945 Soviet Air Forces are royally fucked over. Also, the USSR only had 3 railines of supllies going in so being supplied aganist a tough foe not some cracjed up Reich. It will be difficult too hold the lines much less keep th Juggernaut rolling. It's best hopes in war aganist Europe would be mainland with a load of casualties without America involved. With America they better sue for peace and get terms quick or the USSR might end up with a Capitalist Dog Regime.

Shooting Stars will be available also, since some were deployed in Italy between V-E and V-J Days.

If Russia can break through Germany, France will fall rather easily (their government was even less efficient than the US government today). However, the Russian navy was rather pathetic, their air forces relied largely on Lend-Lease aircraft, which would not be available without the German attack on Russia. The MiG-3 and La-5 would be average early war fighters...unfortunately, they didn't appear until late war. The Il-2 Shturmovik is a very good ground attack aircraft, but would be easy prey for Hurricanes, Spitfires, Tempests, Typhoons, Mustangs, Lightnings, Thunderbolts, and possibly even Airacobras, Apaches, and Warhawks. Not to mention the Meteor and Shooting Star, along with the Vampire by the end of '45. Air superiority would allow for carpet bombing of area defenses before landings. Russian industry was still largely inefficient, and the US alone could outproduce the Soviet Union without the aid of Britain or the Continent. Given Midway and the Phillipines (assuming either no war with Japan or an island-hopping campaign), the US could easily have 35 carriers (including escort carriers) to support an amphibious invasion in the Russian East. Since Russia only survived against Germany because they pulled everything to the West, since Russia and Japan had a non-aggression agreement, this would stretch Russia beyond the breaking point in their defenses.

Russia got about 11,000 aircraft from Lend Lease. At its peak there air force was several time this. The MiG-3 was a 1941 fighter and soon left service, the La-5 was old in 1943, La-7 and Yak-9 made up the late war Russian airforce.

Please consult a book before making such posts in the future Comrade.

[Vympel]

In 1967 the IDF was using 76mm gunned Sherman's.

I don't know about that, by 1967 the IDF had the M51 Isherman, with it's 105mm L/44 gun- and a HEAT projectile that could penetrate 300mm+ RHA.

In addition, the M4 Shermans Israel had in its possession had previously been updated to M50 standard, with a new gun provided by France. I think it was a new, superior 75mm design (the Arabs also used the Sherman and this gun). Regardless, it was a generation ahead of anything seen in WW2.

For comparison, I heard about a Suez War (I assume so, since it was 1950s) incident where an Israeli M47(or M48?) engaged an IS-3- it took two hits on the front, three on the side, and finally two on the back to kill it. As usual for Arab incompetence, the idiots died because they tried to run away. Morons. Combine with the fact that the IDF outclasses any Arab army easily in terms of military skill.

It's just like if I took an IS-3 and whacked on the Soviet 115mm gun of the T-62. OWNAGE. But hardly a point in WW2 debates.

[jaeger115]

If you're going to try Alternate History, STEER CLEAR of WW2. You CAN'T argue weapons when the weapons of WW2 were a very PRODUCT of the war.

I wanted to debate how the war would go in terms of air superiority, technological prowness, and numbers, not who's weapons are better. So far, it looks like the Soviet Union is totally assraped.

Most likely scenario:

Stalin invades Poland and the Baltic States in 1941. Germany realizes it is being threatened, but doesn't have the forces to resist, and is quickly overwhelmed. Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandanavia, and France also fall. Due to Switzerland's mountain barriers, the Soviets have a hard time trying to take the Swiss. After securing France, Stalin realizes that he doesn't have the naval forces to attack Great Britain.

Mussolini decides to side with Stalin because of his tendency to support the strong. The US takes months to transport aircraft, troops, and weapons across the Atlantic to Great Britain, and because of Pearl Harbor, most of its navy is in the Pacific, fighting the Japanese.

British forces in the Mediterreanan smash the Italian navy, stranding Italian forces battling the British in North Africa. Allied forces land in Sicily, crush the opposition there, then move up the boot of Italy. Mussiloni is soon overthrown, leaving Stalin to face the Allies alone.

Due to the Allies' better aircraft, air superiority over France is soon attained, with Hellcats, Spitfires and Hurricanes escorting the US heavy bombers. D-day occurs somewhen in 1946-7, and the Soviets are quickly beaten back under the combined forces of aircraft, infantry, and tanks. Rebellions in Germany and France spring up, pulling the Soviet war machine near the breaking point. But it takes longer to reach Moscow than it did to reach Berlin, due to the greater distance and the lack of allies to the east.

I see WWII ending in about 1949-1950.

Consequences:

US becomes lone superpower, with no Cold War.
No Jewish state rises in Palestine.
Allied forces put a puppet leader in Russia, but due to the large size of the country, his policies are hard to enforce.

What else?

[Vympel]

I wanted to debate how the war would go in terms of air superiority, technological prowness, and numbers, not who's weapons are better. So far, it looks like the Soviet Union is totally assraped.

Most likely scenario:

Stalin invades Poland and the Baltic States in 1941. Germany realizes it is being threatened, but doesn't have the forces to resist, and is quickly overwhelmed. Belgium, the Netherlands, Scandanavia, and France also fall. Due to Switzerland's mountain barriers, the Soviets have a hard time trying to take the Swiss. After securing France, Stalin realizes that he doesn't have the naval forces to attack Great Britain.

Mussolini decides to side with Stalin because of his tendency to support the strong. The US takes months to transport aircraft, troops, and weapons across the Atlantic to Great Britain, and because of Pearl Harbor, most of its navy is in the Pacific, fighting the Japanese.

British forces in the Mediterreanan smash the Italian navy, stranding Italian forces battling the British in North Africa. Allied forces land in Sicily, crush the opposition there, then move up the boot of Italy. Mussiloni is soon overthrown, leaving Stalin to face the Allies alone.

That simple huh? You do forget that the Germans held on to Italy right up near the end of the war, and the Soviets have MANY more forces than the Germans had at their disposal, not to mention better airpower?

Due to the Allies' better aircraft, air superiority over France is soon attained, with Hellcats, Spitfires and Hurricanes escorting the US heavy bombers. D-day occurs somewhen in 1946-7, and the Soviets are quickly beaten back under the combined forces of aircraft, infantry, and tanks. Rebellions in Germany and France spring up, pulling the Soviet war machine near the breaking point. But it takes longer to reach Moscow than it did to reach Berlin, due to the greater distance and the lack of allies to the east.

What? Better aircraft and air superiority just materializes just like that? I hate to burst your bubble, but the Yak and La series fighters of the USSR were the best of any in the war- especially the Yak-3 and La-7 which were natural developments of earlier designs (starting with the Yak-1 and LaGG-3). The top scoring Allied ace was also a Soviet.

This is simplistic nonsense; you can't just assert that D-Day happens by crudely substituting the Soviets with the Germans.

I see WWII ending in about 1949-1950.

Consequences:

US becomes lone superpower, with no Cold War.
No Jewish state rises in Palestine.
Allied forces put a puppet leader in Russia, but due to the large size of the country, his policies are hard to enforce.

What else?

The US succcesfully invading the Soviet Union- utter fantasy I'm sorry to say.

[jaeger115]

That simple huh? You do forget that the Germans held on to Italy right up near the end of the war, and the Soviets have MANY more forces than the Germans had at their disposal, not to mention better airpower?

I think it was because Hitler was egging them on. Am I right?

(Note: This scenario is temporary. It may be subject to change as I see fit)

Point conceded about air superiority. Jeez, I need to research WWII more.

I see your point on invading the USSR. There's simply too much land to cover, plus the killer Russian winters.

The war would turn into a stalemate, wouldn't it?

[IRG CommandoJoe]

If the U.S. invaded Russia and treated the Russian populace well, maybe Russia wouldn't be so hard to rule because the standard of living for the peasants would have been higher than under Stalin's rule.

[Perinquus]

That simple huh? You do forget that the Germans held on to Italy right up near the end of the war, and the Soviets have MANY more forces than the Germans had at their disposal, not to mention better airpower?

I woudn't say better. More numerous, certainly. For the first half of the war, the Soviet pilots on the whole tended not to be nearly as skilled as those of the Luftwaffe, however. The Germans unoffiucally equated ten kills on the eastern front to one against British or American pilots. There was that much difference in skill. The best Soviet pilots tended to be grouped into elite squadrons. The rest were referred contemptuously by the Luftwaffe pilots as "the usual turkeys".

What? Better aircraft and air superiority just materializes just like that? I hate to burst your bubble, but the Yak and La series fighters of the USSR were the best of any in the war- especially the Yak-3 and La-7 which were natural developments of earlier designs (starting with the Yak-1 and LaGG-3). The top scoring Allied ace was also a Soviet.

I don't know as I'd say these planes were the best of the war. Among the best certrainly but maybe not the best. Another problem for the Soviets thoush is that they were entirely dependent on the U.S. for their supply of 100 octane aviation fuel. Without it, their planes performed noticeably worse. In this scenario, they'd have no access to this resource, and it would be a serious detriment to their combat effectiveness.

The US succcesfully invading the Soviet Union- utter fantasy I'm sorry to say.

Oh I don't know. I can envision a scenario where it might happen. The key would be exploiting Russian and Ukrainian hatred of Stalin's regime (which was widespread before the Germans invaded, thanks to forced collectivization and Stalin's purges). The Germans fucked up badly by not only ignoring this, but by themselves behaving worse than the Reds had. They turned a friendly population who had welcomed them initially as liberators, into bitter enemies. If this popular resentment could be exploited properly, it could seriously impair the ability of the Soviet regime to wage a war, or even stay in power.

[jaeger115]

Perignuus, are you sure about all of this?

[Vympel]

I woudn't say better. More numerous, certainly. For the first half of the war, the Soviet pilots on the whole tended not to be nearly as skilled as those of the Luftwaffe, however. The Germans unoffiucally equated ten kills on the eastern front to one against British or American pilots. There was that much difference in skill. The best Soviet pilots tended to be grouped into elite squadrons. The rest were referred contemptuously by the Luftwaffe pilots as "the usual turkeys".

For the first half of the war, when the Soviets hadn't had any air combat experience like the Luftwaffe and were outnumbered and outlcassed. The situation didn't last long at all. By 1943 the Germans lost air superiority and never regained it.

I don't know as I'd say these planes were the best of the war. Among the best certrainly but maybe not the best. Another problem for the Soviets thoush is that they were entirely dependent on the U.S. for their supply of 100 octane aviation fuel. Without it, their planes performed noticeably worse. In this scenario, they'd have no access to this resource, and it would be a serious detriment to their combat effectiveness.

You forget that the Soviets have possession of all of Europe, and their home territory hasn't been invaded by the Wehrmacht.

Oh I don't know. I can envision a scenario where it might happen. The key would be exploiting Russian and Ukrainian hatred of Stalin's regime (which was widespread before the Germans invaded, thanks to forced collectivization and Stalin's purges). The Germans fucked up badly by not only ignoring this, but by themselves behaving worse than the Reds had. They turned a friendly population who had welcomed them initially as liberators, into bitter enemies. If this popular resentment could be exploited properly, it could seriously impair the ability of the Soviet regime to wage a war, or even stay in power.

Only those nationalists in the West Ukraine greeted the Germans as liberators. In the Eastern Ukraine there has always been a sizeable Russian minority, and there simply was no love for the Germans in Russia proper.

[Perinquus]

For the first half of the war, when the Soviets hadn't had any air combat experience like the Luftwaffe and were outnumbered and outlcassed. The situation didn't last long at all. By 1943 the Germans lost air superiority and never regained it.

It was still more a question of being overwhelmed by sheer numbers than better skilled pilots. Also, don't forget that a lot of German air strength was siphoned off by the need to defend the homeland against British and American bombers. Add that strength, plus British and American planes and things don't look as good for the Red Air Force.

You forget that the Soviets have possession of all of Europe, and their home territory hasn't been invaded by the Wehrmacht.

It wasn't lack of oil resources that led to this situation. Soviet refineries were unable to produce 100 octane aviation fuel. It was a lack of technology, not oil reserves.

Only those nationalists in the West Ukraine greeted the Germans as liberators. In the Eastern Ukraine there has always been a sizeable Russian minority, and there simply was no love for the Germans in Russia proper.

That still doesn't change the fact that the Soviet regime was unpopular at home. Stalin downplayed communism and made it all about the defense of the Rodina (motherland). He even relaxed his opposition to the orthodox church and other institutions that were antithetical to communism. In a scenario such as we are envisioning, there is no wave of foreign invaders to galvanize this patriotic Russian nationalism, and strengthen it further by being even more brutal than the communists were. This will make the war effort a far less popular one. And even in areas where the Germans were not welcomed so warmly at first, there are bound to be anticommunist elements who might be willing to provide the Allies with intelligence, and even form an underground movement. If the Western powers paly their cards right in the propaganda campaign, they probably could never hope to conquer and destroy the Soviet Union, but they could very well detach the Ukraine and other portions, and force Stalin to the negotiating table, particularly if America still develops the A bomb.