Star Wars>Star Trek

[The Computer Wizard]

This idea may have been mentioned before, but I don't know so I will say it. While I prefer Star Wars over Star Trek, and realize that Star Wars ships would own ships from Star Trek, I also would like to point out the following tidbt.

In the Star Wars Era, the Old republic is at least a thousand years old. Many many more previous empires with decent technology ran before that. My observation is that while technology is improving is SW, it is improving veeeeeeerrrrryyyy sloooowwwlly. Pit the Emps vs the GA, and the emps probably would win. You may be wondering what my point is. Well here it is.
In Star Trek, Technology is exponentially increasing far faster than in star wars, to the point of there even *being* a debate on Star Wars vs Star Trek. True, the enterprise-D would get crushed by a ssd, but the enterprise-J? The Enterprise-J was rumored in a book to travel at speeds that would make the fastest SW ship look like a snail. Before you hit me on the origin of that quote, its being cannon or not, that is not the point. My point is that mankind went from bows and arrows to phasers and quantum torps in star trek in a thousand years, from horse drawn buggies to far faster than light speed. Give Star Trek a progression of a thousand years. See what happens. Maybe nothing. Who knows? Dont get on and say, "SW will always beat ST." whop-de-do. I want clear explanations please.

[Teleros]

I hope you've got something flameproof by the way.

In the mean time, Mike does have a section of his site that answers this issue: click here.

[Karmic Knight]

Give Star Trek a progression of a thousand years. See what happens. Maybe nothing. Who knows? Dont get on and say, "SW will always beat ST." whop-de-do. I want clear explanations please

How do I respond, this point has been said on the main site, which is my only experience with ST, under Trekkie arguments, as such if you read this sd.net page that deals with it I have nothing, but if you haven't, read it so you don't do the other arguments. Then you leave my league and you go to the big leagues not the minors.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Give Star Trek a progression of a thousand years. See what happens.

Why? Star Trek takes place in the future and Star Wars in the distant past, if anyone should get extra time it's Star Wars.

[Vyraeth]

Not to throw the thread entirely off topic, but aren't you the same guy who sent Wong an e-mail arguing in favor of creationism?

It's purely an anecdotal observation on my part, but there seems to be a heavy correlation between people arguing in favor of Star Trek's technological superiority and a belief in creationism...

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Firstly, the Old Republic is atleast several thousand years old. Like, twenty something. Their method of FTL travel can cross the Galaxy in mere days. DAYS. Voyager has to settle for years and years, and even then, they only managed due to 1. Sustainable Speed of Warp 9.9 that didn't "damage subspace", something other Starships did not have until then, and 2. Deus Ex Machina and Borg Tech.

Sure, the Tech in Trek has improved a lot over a few centuries. So what?It seems more like a growth spurt to me, than an actual sustained rate of improvement. I believe it was indicated somewhere in the EU (Although I could not tell you where, making my argument about as solid as yours)that the Star Wars galaxy went through a similar growth spurt about 20-30,000 years ago.

Also, there is a notable difference in technology between Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic and the Phantom Menace, that's a four-thousand year gap. The ships in KoTOR are significantly smaller in scale. Weapons technology also is visibly less powerful on their capital ships in KoTOR than in the movies. And yet, their firepower is still orders of magnitude greater than those in Star Trek. 4000 years in their past. In the movies, their firepower is enough that ISD's can reduce the surface of an entire planet to waste in a very short amount of time.

I doubt that the Federation would ever be able to upscale their technology fast enough to defeat the Tech used by the Old Republic or the Galactic Empire. Though Star Wars tech may be evolving at a slower rate than the tech in Star Trek (And there's no solid proof that it is. With Tech as advanced as that in Star Wars, improvements are difficult to see. Things go from "awesomely good", to "a little bit better" every now and then), they're still several millennia ahead of them.

And also, read the main page more.

[Batman]

Welcome to stardestroyer.net. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
And way to start your forum presence, hotshot.

This idea may have been mentioned before, but I don't know so I will say it. While I prefer Star Wars over Star Trek, and realize that Star Wars ships would own ships from Star Trek, I also would like to point out the following tidbt.
SNIP for length
You may be wondering what my point is. Well here it is.
In Star Trek, Technology is exponentially increasing far faster than in star wars,

As evidenced by what? Your say so? Technology has ALSO been mostly static from the 22nd to the 24th century in Trek.

to the point of there even *being* a debate on Star Wars vs Star Trek. True, the enterprise-D would get crushed by a ssd, but the enterprise-J? The Enterprise-J was rumored in a book to travel at speeds that would make the fastest SW ship look like a snail. Before you hit me on the origin of that quote, its being cannon or not, that is not the point.

Yes it is. I can write a story about Star Wars hand weapons obliterating entire universes. That makes it neither official nor means it is in any way shape or form a believable interpretation of what would really happen in the Star Wars universe.

My point is that mankind went from bows and arrows to phasers and quantum torps in star trek in a thousand years, from horse drawn buggies to far faster than light speed.

Thanks to getting most of it post the atomic era gift-wrapped via the Vulcans and other technologically advanced species that had ALREADY had it for a considerable time. Mankind did most emphatically NOT develop that technology. They merely seem to be able to make better use of its capacities. And once mankind HAD that technology they didn't exactly take it and run away with it in a fresh new direction, did they? What improvements were made over the centuries were pretty gradual.
In the 24th century they still use Warp, impulse drives, photorps, phasers, transporters... Where's that exponential technological development of yours?

Give Star Trek a progression of a thousand years. See what happens.

Given that there hasn't BEEN much in the way of technological progression even with the Federation from the 22nd to the 24th century, I predict 'nothing much'. And if anything the Feds seem to be among the more progressive races in the AQ. Everybody else seems to just rest on their laurels and if at all develop their technology at the same snail's pace the Wars galaxy does (which may simply be due to the fact that there is nothing left to do, has that ever occurred to you?)

Maybe nothing. Who knows? Dont get on and say, "SW will always beat ST." whop-de-do. I want clear explanations please.

Bold words from someone who starts from a faulty premise and uses a completely irrelevant (leave alone quantified or sourced) example of a situation where Trek tech might hypothetically be superior to Wars...

[Karmic Knight]

Sure, the Tech in Trek has improved a lot over a few centuries. So what?It seems more like a growth spurt to me, than an actual sustained rate of improvement. I believe it was indicated somewhere in the EU (Although I could not tell you where, making my argument about as solid as yours)that the Star Wars galaxy went through a similar growth spurt about 20-30,000 years ago.

What I think you are refering to is the Rakata's Force based tech being addapted by the Duros and the Corellians into the normal Hyperdrive. I only remeber reading it in Wookiepedia.

[Darth Servo]

1. You ASSUME the advancement between now and 24th century Earth was due to human research rather than the other civilizations that already had all that stuff (warp drive, etc) showing them how its done.
2. Everytime we actually see a new piece of tech in Trek, it turns out to be a one-episode-wonder and either has a nasty unforseen side effect, is declared sentient, just doesn't work, etc.
3. The series Enterprise was shown to be nothing more than one of Riker's holodeck fantasies and the E-J would be part of that fantasy.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

The series Enterprise was shown to be nothing more than one of Riker's holodeck fantasies and the E-J would be part of that fantasy.

Is there any actual proof of this? I mean, yes, the final episode of Enterprise was just a holodeck fantasy (although I got the impression it was "based on historical events"), but has it ever been officially stated or proven anywhere that the whole show was?

Also, I didn't think the E-J looked to be particularly impressive anyway.

[Batman]

Also, I didn't think the E-J looked to be particularly impressive anyway.

The term you're looking for is 'hideously ugly'.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Also, I didn't think the E-J looked to be particularly impressive anyway.

The term you're looking for is 'hideously ugly'.

You're right, that's the exact term I was looking for. Thanks for the correction. I keep forgeting that I don't need to be all fake-polite and censor my opinions here.

[Darth Servo]

The series Enterprise was shown to be nothing more than one of Riker's holodeck fantasies and the E-J would be part of that fantasy.

Is there any actual proof of this? I mean, yes, the final episode of Enterprise was just a holodeck fantasy (although I got the impression it was "based on historical events"), but has it ever been officially stated or proven anywhere that the whole show was?

The fact that pretty much the whole show took a massive dump on TOS continuity. The fact that we never hear anything about the uber-wank Xindi anywhere else in Trek. Its like they just disappeared!!! Could it be they never existed in the first place and were all just...








...a fantasy?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Also, I didn't think the E-J looked to be particularly impressive anyway.

The term you're looking for is 'hideously ugly'.

You're right, that's the exact term I was looking for. Thanks for the correction. I keep forgeting that I don't need to be all fake-polite and censor my opinions here.

You know what? FUCK YOU, CUNT STAIN! You see, I can be uncivil enough for the both of us!

[The Computer Wizard]

Firstly, the Old Republic is atleast several thousand years old. Like, twenty something. Their method of FTL travel can cross the Galaxy in mere days. DAYS. Voyager has to settle for years and years, and even then, they only managed due to 1. Sustainable Speed of Warp 9.9 that didn't "damage subspace", something other Starships did not have until then, and 2. Deus Ex Machina and Borg Tech.

Sure, the Tech in Trek has improved a lot over a few centuries. So what?It seems more like a growth spurt to me, than an actual sustained rate of improvement. I believe it was indicated somewhere in the EU (Although I could not tell you where, making my argument about as solid as yours)that the Star Wars galaxy went through a similar growth spurt about 20-30,000 years ago.

Also, there is a notable difference in technology between Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic and the Phantom Menace, that's a four-thousand year gap. The ships in KoTOR are significantly smaller in scale. Weapons technology also is visibly less powerful on their capital ships in KoTOR than in the movies. And yet, their firepower is still orders of magnitude greater than those in Star Trek. 4000 years in their past. In the movies, their firepower is enough that ISD's can reduce the surface of an entire planet to waste in a very short amount of time.

I doubt that the Federation would ever be able to upscale their technology fast enough to defeat the Tech used by the Old Republic or the Galactic Empire. Though Star Wars tech may be evolving at a slower rate than the tech in Star Trek (And there's no solid proof that it is. With Tech as advanced as that in Star Wars, improvements are difficult to see. Things go from "awesomely good", to "a little bit better" every now and then), they're still several millennia ahead of them.

And also, read the main page more.

ill see what I can do, and thanks for a thought out reply , and yes to the previous person, I am a Creationist/Christian, but I did not come here to argue creationism beacuse nobody would want to listen.
Wise me don't need it, and fools won't heed it. -My dad

[The Computer Wizard]

Wise me(N) don't need it, and fools won't heed it. -My dad[/quote]

Wise men, my bad. I am not that wise yet.

[Surlethe]

What you've got to realize is that while technological growth may seem exponential in the short-term, there's no reason to think that it will continue that way in the long run. For example, Star Wars has been in technological stasis for thousands of years.

I am a Creationist/Christian, but I did not come here to argue creationism beacuse nobody would want to listen.
Wise me don't need it, and fools won't heed it. -My dad

It's interesting how you can suddenly read the minds of three thousand people spread across the world, to be able to declare that "nobody would want to listen". As for the pithy quote, it's cutesy, but contains no substance.

[The Computer Wizard]

1. You ASSUME the advancement between now and 24th century Earth was due to human research rather than the other civilizations that already had all that stuff (warp drive, etc) showing them how its done.
   me: unfortunately yes, but then, the Prime Directive worked both ways, because theoratically, Kirk could go 20,000 years into the future and steal a super ship, bring it back, and play with it. (stupid example)
2. Everytime we actually see a new piece of tech in Trek, it turns out to be a one-episode-wonder and either has a nasty unforseen side effect, is declared sentient, just doesn't work, etc.
   Me: true, its just a cryin' shame Picard gave the metaphasic cloak back to the romulans, and all the super stuff they get either blows up, or gets returned or never used again.
3. The series Enterprise was shown to be nothing more than one of Riker's holodeck fantasies and the E-J would be part of that fantasy.

me: hats not the Enterprise bit I was referring to, you misunderstood me; i was referring to a book, in which there is a line that says somthing like: "
The Enterprise-J slowed in the expase BETWEEN the galaxies, slowed to warp speed, a relativy crawl, then to impulse, then stopped." Thus indicating that trans-galactic travel has taken place. And I never intended for yall to start arguing about the E-J, that was just a example. I might try to obtain the exact quote. Now as for ST books being un-cannon, I don't give a rip. They are canon to me. If SW books are cannon, ST books should be too

[The Computer Wizard]

It's interesting how you can suddenly read the minds of three thousand people spread across the world, to be able to declare that "nobody would want to listen".substance.[/quote]

Like I said, I am not going to argue something that you are not going to listen to. I have seen what you do to creationists here. You belitte them, mock them, and are extremely rude. Why on earth would I want to set myself up for that for no reason? I could go to my creationist friends and even if I got solid proof for creationism, I doubt you would pay attention to it. You tell me why I should bother, and I might.

The reason why I quoted that was because the Bible verse that it comes from packs a heck of punch.

[Feil]

Now as for ST books being un-cannon, I don't give a rip. They are canon to me. If SW books are cannon, ST books should be too Smile

Do yourself a favor and read the fucking website before assuming that your brilliant arguments haven't been dealt with a thousand times before.

[Teleros]

I have seen what you do to creationists here. You belitte them, mock them, and are extremely rude.

Only some of the folks here - I try not to myself, so feel free to PM if you want a polite discussion . I can't claim to have the debating skills of some of the guys here but hey.

even if I got solid proof for creationism, I doubt you would pay attention to it

On the contrary - the problem of course is getting the solid proof . If you could provide it you'd make believers out of a lotta people here, precisely because most of the people here understand the idea of discarding a theory if a better one emerges.

[The Guid]

I could go to my creationist friends and even if I got solid proof for creationism, I doubt you would pay attention to it.

The fact is you presume such solid proof exists. It doesn't which is why we are not creationists.

If you did have solid proof then we would. We'd have to, as scientifically minded individuals. We have no other basis to judge reality unlike a religous person.

More on topic I want to ask you why you think that the Star Wars Universe can not continue to advance it's technology. They had science divisions in the Imperium, and they were funded and paid well. If they had not made advances in thousands of years as you claim then nobody would bother to fund research - it would be pointless.

[Batman]

i was referring to a book, in which there is a line that says somthing like: "
The Enterprise-J slowed in the expase BETWEEN the galaxies, slowed to warp speed, a relativy crawl, then to impulse, then stopped." Thus indicating that trans-galactic travel has taken place.

At completely undefined speeds except that they're significantly faster than Warp. That doesn't even require them to match Wars stardrive speeds, leave alone exceed them to the point that Wars ships would look like a snail by comparison.

And I never intended for yall to start arguing about the E-J, that was just a example.

A completely useless one what with it being not canon and undefined like nobody's business.

I might try to obtain the exact quote. Now as for ST books being un-cannon, I don't give a rip. They are canon to me.

And my fanfic with the universe-destroying handguns is canon to me. Shall we see how trek 1000 years down the line compares to that?

If SW books are cannon, ST books should be too

Take it up with Paramount. The OFFICIAL canon policy (what there is of it) says they ain't.

[Steven Snyder]

Like I said, I am not going to argue something that you are not going to listen to.

So you send a Pro-Creationist email to Mike about it but don't want to argue your point? Have you actually read any posts around here?

I have seen what you do to creationists here. You belitte them, mock them, and are extremely rude.

It's basically the same treatment for anyone who spouts a load of shit around here and can't back it up. Creationists are treated no different than anyone else.

Why on earth would I want to set myself up for that for no reason?

Good question, answer it.

The Enterprise-J slowed in the expase BETWEEN the galaxies, slowed to warp speed, a relativy crawl, then to impulse, then stopped." Thus indicating that trans-galactic travel has taken place. And I never intended for yall to start arguing about the E-J, that was just a example. I might try to obtain the exact quote. Now as for ST books being un-cannon, I don't give a rip. They are canon to me. If SW books are cannon, ST books should be too

Well people here do 'give a rip' about what is canon here and what is not. If you can't abide by that then turn your happy ass around and walk away. Dropping these massive claims about what this ship can do with no canon evidence to back it up is a waste of our time.

[Ted C]

My point is that mankind went from bows and arrows to phasers and quantum torps in star trek in a thousand years, from horse drawn buggies to far faster than light speed.

Over the course of about ten-thousand years, humanity (in the Star Trek universe) managed to go from bows and arrows to a working warp drive capable of achieving lightspeed.

From there, humanity has made very little progress. Phasers, photon torpodoes, transporters, and assorted other "treknology" already existed in the galaxy, and humanity acquired it primarily via trade with other races, especially the Vulcans.

To put it bluntly, since making contact with the Vulcans, humanity has made startlingly little technological progress of their own. They have acquired an assortment of technology from other races around the galaxy, but they have hardly invented anything.

That being the case, the prediction that a Federation starship built five "generations" after the Enterprise-E would easily defeat an Imperial Star Destroyer is dubious at best.