Israel seeks $12 billion US aid to maintain aparthide state

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weemadando
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Post by weemadando »

MKSheppard wrote:
weemadando wrote: No he's just occupying (illegally in the eyes of UN law) a sovereign state,
Uhm, since when is the west bank a Sovereign state?

Image

Gee, look at the Islamofascist logos. They show the ENTIRE
state of israel, not the West Bank.....perhaps they're trying
to tell us something?
Dude, go to Rapture Ready and look in the middle east conflict board. They have a stickied topic called "maps don't lie".

What you have done there is almost identical.

You realise how big the west bank is? You realise how many Palestinians are in "refugee camps" or living under "protection" in Israel?

And don't forget that Israel forcibly took that land during wars. So why do we respond to Iraq trying to invade Kuwait?

Get a standpoint and stick to it.
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Post by Coyote »

jaeger115 wrote:
the British were on record as saying that the Jews were the more law-abiding faction.
The British said that? That's a second-hand statement. Second-hand statements are unreliable because the British possibly could be very mistaken or biased.
"It is true that in times of disturbance the Jews, as compared to the Arabs, are the law abiding section of the population, and indeed, throughout the whole series of outbreaks, and under very great provocation, they have shown a notable capacity for discipline and self-restraint."
--Palestine Royal Commission Report, July 1937, p. 127
(from Martin-Gilbert Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict)

1936:
In the three years after Hitler came to power in 1933, the Jewish population in Palestine increased... to 400,000... On May 11, after three weeks of violence, the British authorities warned the Arabs that they intended to continue to 'suppress all outbreaks, lawlessness, and punish the perpetrators'. On 13 May the Mufti of Jerusalem declared at Haifa: 'the Jews are trying to expel us from the country. They are murdering our sons and burning our homes'. Within a month of the first Jewish death, 21 Jews had been killed, and many farms and orchards burned by Arab action. Six Arabs had been killed by the police, none by the Jews.
--Atlas of Arab-Israeli Conflict, page 18

Earlier actions:
1 March, 1920-- Tel Hai: 8 Jews killed by Arabs
25 April, 1920-- Bnei Yehuda: Jewish immigrant killed by Arabs
March-April, 1920-- further attacks by Arabs at the towns of Ayelet Hashahar; Mishmar Hayarden; Mahanayim;Rosh Pina; Sharona; Kfar Tavor; Deganya; Menahemya.
June 1920-- Kinneret: As a result of Arab attacks through March and April, Jews form Hagana defense force. The name "Ha'Ganah" literally means: "the Defense".

23 August 1929:
Over a thousand Arabs in three main groups, emerged from the Old City of Jerusalem and attacked any Jew they could catch in several of the Jewish quarters of the city and it suburbs. Attacks on Jews quickly spread throughout Palestine. That night the British authorities refused permission to allow Jews to set up armed units to protect Jewish townships.

By nightfall of August 26, 133 Jews had been killed, and 339 wounded. Of the 116 Arab dead, all but six had been killed by the British Mandate police in their efforst to halt the anti-Jewish violence.

Among the Jews killed were 59 Jews on 24 August in the town of Hebron; 23 were killed in one house alone and the bodies dismembered... 6 more were killed in Jerusalem, includng 2 children and a Rabbi. Several elderly Jews were killed in the northern town of Safed.

All this took place a long time before either 1948 or 1967.
No, it doesn't 'excuse' later abuses by Israel, but bear in mind that the people who started swinging first were not the Israelis-- and when the 1947 UN Resolution was passed to partition the land peacefully the Jews accepted it and the Arabs refused and initiated yet another round of attacks.

Because of this history, perhaps you can understand why the Israelis are not particularly impressed when the Palestinians try to pluck the world's heartstrings while deploying suicide bombers by the bushel and then acting indignant when Israel dares to strike back.
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Post by Coyote »

weemadando wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
weemadando wrote: No he's just occupying (illegally in the eyes of UN law) a sovereign state,
Uhm, since when is the west bank a Sovereign state?

Gee, look at the Islamofascist logos. They show the ENTIRE
state of israel, not the West Bank.....perhaps they're trying
to tell us something?
Dude, go to Rapture Ready and look in the middle east conflict board. They have a stickied topic called "maps don't lie".

What you have done there is almost identical.
Many of the above listed groups do indeed advocate a violent war to "liberate" the entire country. They have talked of "pushing the Jews into the sea" and a "liberation of fire and blood". Just because Rapture Ready is a pack of rapid fundie craphounds doesn't mean that they don't occassionally stumble across something real.

The crux of all this comes down to this-- no one here truly believes that the Palestinians are innocent darlings. They kill and maim innocent people and you all recognize this. The difficulty comes when Israel retaliates and the terrorists have used their own families as meat shields. Then the Palestinians wail and moan about Israel's barbarity.

Israel needs to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, this will remove any moral impetus that the Palestinians will have for using terrorist attacks.

And if terrorism continues, and the Palestinians continue to interpose their own people in the line of fire... what?
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by jaeger115 »

It is always said that cold hard facts will always end an debate. In this case, I concede to Coyote. There were Jewish terrorists before Israel was founded, but I remember somewhere that they were largely shunned by the Jewish community while the Arab community supports and finances Palestinian suicide attacks.

Still, I'm not shifting my position. Israel is a racist state, and it must be reformed or destroyed. Period.

Personally I hope the following will happen, though it defys common sense:

The future US president pulls the plug on all foreign aid and all selling of war machines to Israel.

Hopefully (but I highly doubt it) the Arab world will see this action and realize what is really going on.

The US president takes advantage of this to push negogiations with reform-minded Israeli and Arab leaders.

I'm not sure how the right-wing leaders in charge of Israel will see this, though.
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Post by Enlightenment »

Short of killing everyone, the only way there's going to be peace in the middle east is if both sides adopt a disengagement policy. For the Israelis this would mean building a wall along their 1967 borders and shooting anyone who tries to get over, under, or through it. For the Islamics this would mean not tring to send anyone over, under, or through the Israeli wall.

Of course for this to work the settlers would need to be evicted and the Israeli government replaced by something not dominated by religious zealots. Probably much cheaper and easier to just nuke the entire region than work towards creating the necessary enabling factors....
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Re: Israel seeks $12 billion US aid to maintain aparthide st

Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

Ted wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: How are they advancing any US interest in the area?
They're the only real democracy in the entire stinking region. That,
and the fact that they keep the Arabs down is enough for me
You know Ryan, if they werent there, the Arabs wouldn't be so rabid.
Yeah right. Cause without the Jews Islam would be a friend to freedom.
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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

jaeger115 wrote:
Oh no, I guess we better call out the United Kingdom for their violations
of the rights of the Northern Irish since the 70s!

I recall a sign at a British checkpoint in NI in the 70s...."BLAME THE TERRORISTS FOR THIS" or somesuch
There you go again, shifting responsibility :roll: BOTH nations are guilty. Does that mean we should stay friends with both of them?

Moreover, Israel bases its discrimination on race.
So basing descrimination on race = Bad
Basing discrimination on religion = Good
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Post by C.S.Strowbridge »

Next of Kin wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:
Faram wrote:Btw new bombing in Tel Aviv 17 dead today check your favorite news site probebly in there now.
Twin bombings in downtown Tel Aviv killed at least 19 people today and wounded 100 others, Israeli police said. The Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the terror attacks around a closed bus station in central Tel Aviv.
Tell me again why the Israelis should let suspected bombers wander around
their country freely?
They shouldn't have to. Most bombers blow themselves up along with the intended targets hence the term suicide bomber. How can you tell a bomber from an honest citizen. Does that mean that Israel should clamp down on all arabs in the area?
Israel doesn't do that. All they do is check travel of Palestinians in and out of their territory. And to call that anything but smart is fucking stupid. Remember, Palestine is an enemy nation led by a hostile government.

AND THAT'S WHY ISRAEL HAS THE POLICIES IT HAS!

It's not Race or Ethniticy or Religion, cause Arabs in Israel have the same Race, Ethniticity and Religion as the Arabs in Palestine and they are not treated like terrorists.

Ok, that last point has confused people in the past, so lets use a science analogy. If you had two reaction taking place in identical flasks and one happened twice as fast as the other, you wouldn't say that discrepancy was due to the shape of the container. And you wouldn't blame some bullshit PR conspiracy.

So why the discrepency? Maybe it has something to do with the behaviour of the Palestinians. It could have a little to do with the Terrorist attacks, the fact that their 'leader' is a Terrorist, their 'security force' is mostly ex, and not so ex-terrorists. Just maybe? Could we all at least pretend that's a possibility?

So why do the Palestinians act they way they do? Well, it can't because of Israel actions, cause they were killing Jews before there was an Israeli.

Back to the science analogy. If you had a purple solution to which you added a chemical too, you wouldn't say the purple colour was due to the chemical you added. Cause it was purple before you added the chemical.

So, on the one side we have people who have been acting this way for about a century, through Israeli oppression, Arab oppression, self determination, etc. And on the other side, we have people who give full right to those identical to their enemies, except for their commitment to building a better Israel instead of trying to destroy it.

But of course Israel only acts the way it does cause their racist, and of course the Palestinians only act the way they do cause of Israeli oppression.
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