Ostensibly, tipping is a reward for good service. But as far as I can tell, the way the custom is practiced now, you are expected to tip or else you're considered an asshole. The waiter has to basically treat you like shit before you have an excuse to forego the tip, so the tip has basically become an undocumented entitlement. Don't do it and you'd better not go back to that restaurant again, because the waiter is liable to spit in your soup and piss in your coffee.
And this got me to thinking: how much of the average family's budget every year is tipping? Where did this 10-15% rule come from? Let's say that a meal at a cheapie restaurant costs $15, with drinks costing $2. That's $17 per person, or $68 for a family of four. Add on taxes and you could be looking at as much as $75 (or more) depending on where you live. Now the waiter looks at you and expects 10-15%, which would be roughly $8 to $11.
Let's just round that off and say that you typically shell out $10 in tips for a family meal, and we're not talking about high-class restaurants here. Now let's say you eat out for dinner 3 times a week on average (which is the number I've heard on the TV). That's $30 per week in tips alone (not including any other meals such as business lunches etc), or over $1500 per year.
Is tipping a bullshit custom?
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Darth Wong
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Is tipping a bullshit custom?
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kheegster
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In countries where tipping is not a custom, restaurants usually include a service charge ranging between 10-15% on top of the bill, so you're effectively forced to tip anyway. As I see it, the modern day North American custom of tipping is nothing more than a service charge, and the only problem is that it can be a pain in the ass to try and figure out the amount to tip, especially with large parties of people.
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Singular Intellect
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Tipping always struck me as a gesture that should always be optional, and not make a non tipper seem like an asshole. Like your math suggests, if you enjoy eating out a bit (particularily with friends and/or family), you end up paying quite a sum at the end of the year just for tips.
It's actually interesting you mentioned this, considering the practice has been annoying me somewhat as of late. I've actually found myself calculating what tip I'm 'supposed' to leave, and thinking "Why do should I feel obligated to? Aren't these servers getting paid to bring me my food in the first place? Tips should be for exceptionally good service, not what I'd expect in the first place."
I asked my room mate about it awhile back since he works in that field. His opinion was that if you can't afford the tip, just pickup the food without any of the server options (ie: take out). I could've argued the issue I suppose, but I didn't see it as worth the effort.
It's actually interesting you mentioned this, considering the practice has been annoying me somewhat as of late. I've actually found myself calculating what tip I'm 'supposed' to leave, and thinking "Why do should I feel obligated to? Aren't these servers getting paid to bring me my food in the first place? Tips should be for exceptionally good service, not what I'd expect in the first place."
I asked my room mate about it awhile back since he works in that field. His opinion was that if you can't afford the tip, just pickup the food without any of the server options (ie: take out). I could've argued the issue I suppose, but I didn't see it as worth the effort.
I look at tipping the same way I look at charitable contributions: If I so much as get a vibe from someone that they think they're entitled to my money, they aren't getting a dime.
The one good thing about it is that waiters tend to be on their best behavior, give customer service and do their jobs -without copping attitudes. I wonder if that would be true without the tip incentive.
The one good thing about it is that waiters tend to be on their best behavior, give customer service and do their jobs -without copping attitudes. I wonder if that would be true without the tip incentive.
I have several friends that are/were waiters, and have listened to their discussions about it . part of the problem is that restaraunts dont pay well, so tipping isnt an entitlement for them, its a way to make ends meet. Tipping is so ingrained the system that its the only thing that makes those jobs viable
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Let's just hope nobody ever says to a waiter 'Hey, I loved the way you handled things tonight, here's a little extra on top of the tip.' The parabolic microphones of the Restaurant Illuminati would be all over it, and 50 years from now people will be paying a 50% sur-sur-sur-tip.Sriad wrote:Classic feedback loop: waiters expect to be tipped because the restaurants where they work expects you to tip them, and consequently pay their wait staff SHIT wages...
Tipping is bullshit, and the need of a waiter to make a livable sum off of it are neither here nor there. The fact they get paid so badly that they need to rely on handouts is itself bullshit, and adding the extra spires onto the already idiotic foundation doesn't justify it.
It is a nice way to give feedback, like hey you did a good job and had a ton of people to handle, or hey you didn't ever ask me if I needed something more to drink go screw yourself. But as an expectation? It's aggrivating.
I think it's just ingrained into the industry that there's no possible way to get around it, but it's one of those extra invisible taxes that bothers me. I don't like eating out, but now that I do (job stuff, trying to get some social networking going), I can really see the costs burning a hole in my wallet. It adds up, especially for common, moderately-priced lunch items that always seem to be about 2 bucks in tax. I swear the tax rate is like 25 percent in Chinatown.
It is a nice way to give feedback, like hey you did a good job and had a ton of people to handle, or hey you didn't ever ask me if I needed something more to drink go screw yourself. But as an expectation? It's aggrivating.
I think it's just ingrained into the industry that there's no possible way to get around it, but it's one of those extra invisible taxes that bothers me. I don't like eating out, but now that I do (job stuff, trying to get some social networking going), I can really see the costs burning a hole in my wallet. It adds up, especially for common, moderately-priced lunch items that always seem to be about 2 bucks in tax. I swear the tax rate is like 25 percent in Chinatown.
In Australia (where hospitality wages must be higher, I guess) tipping is possible, and in some places encouraged (with a little 'tip' area on the bill or whatnot for you to add a value) but never compulsory. I would tip if the service was 'good' (ie not terrible and not bare minimal), or if the food was excellent beyond price-driven expectations (quite common at smaller restaurants) but no way I'm paying some fixed percent every single time. You want a tip, give me good food or good service or get fucked.
The idea that I owe some waiter flunky anything - even in some social guilt 'oh they don't get paid much' way - is deeply offensive. In Australia, with award wages defined by the government or industry bodies, there is no equivalent to the laughably low US wages in this industry.
The idea that I owe some waiter flunky anything - even in some social guilt 'oh they don't get paid much' way - is deeply offensive. In Australia, with award wages defined by the government or industry bodies, there is no equivalent to the laughably low US wages in this industry.
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The Grim Squeaker
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I regard it ambivalently whilst currently "going with the flow".
My parents almost always give a tip even when displeased (Though that has happened a number of times even when they decided not to give a tip but their friends did give a tip, leaving them in an awkward position and forcing them to also donate).
My grandfather (Who works extensively in Asia) almost never gives tips, and works where giving tips is actively discouraged (He once told me off a bell-hop who gave the tip back after telling him that "We're paid wages for a reason").
I do regard tipping as acceptable when the service really is good, however the question is how to define good as opposed to acceptable or mediocre.
The location also varies, you don't tip a fast food worker but it's hard not to add a tip whilst in a small restaurant in a poor area even if the service is a bit lacking (But friendly).
It also depends on whether you expect to return to the location frequently and/or know the people (Though I've never experienced this as making a difference).
The final and most deciding factor is society, when others start pooling for a tip then you're practically obliged to "pitch in" (As happened with my parents quite a few times).
When taking a chick out to lunch recently I did pay the tip just as she'd been about to (whilst trying to keep her from paying the bill
), but the service was exactly what I'd define as "Average but competent" and in a successful restaurant (Though owned by my favorite restaurant owner in Israel).
My parents almost always give a tip even when displeased (Though that has happened a number of times even when they decided not to give a tip but their friends did give a tip, leaving them in an awkward position and forcing them to also donate).
My grandfather (Who works extensively in Asia) almost never gives tips, and works where giving tips is actively discouraged (He once told me off a bell-hop who gave the tip back after telling him that "We're paid wages for a reason").
I do regard tipping as acceptable when the service really is good, however the question is how to define good as opposed to acceptable or mediocre.
The location also varies, you don't tip a fast food worker but it's hard not to add a tip whilst in a small restaurant in a poor area even if the service is a bit lacking (But friendly).
It also depends on whether you expect to return to the location frequently and/or know the people (Though I've never experienced this as making a difference).
The final and most deciding factor is society, when others start pooling for a tip then you're practically obliged to "pitch in" (As happened with my parents quite a few times).
When taking a chick out to lunch recently I did pay the tip just as she'd been about to (whilst trying to keep her from paying the bill
), but the service was exactly what I'd define as "Average but competent" and in a successful restaurant (Though owned by my favorite restaurant owner in Israel).
Don't you have labour laws forbidding the employer to force waiters to rely on tips?Covenant wrote: Tipping is bullshit, and the need of a waiter to make a livable sum off of it are neither here nor there. The fact they get paid so badly that they need to rely on handouts is itself bullshit, and adding the extra spires onto the already idiotic foundation doesn't justify it.
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Sadly DEATH, no. Our labor laws do the opposite, as far as I can tell. I've never worked food service so I have no first-hand experience, but my friends have and told me the pay was basically next to nothing and their employers expected them to basically fill their own paychecks via the tips.
That's the biggest reason why I do consider it bullshit. Tipping provides such a huge degree of the money made by waiters, and it's unevenly and often unfairly distributed. There's no cap or minimum, and what my co-workers say is fair is between equal to and twice tax. For a quick meal that's cheap, that may be like two bucks. So I either tip along with them, or I look like a jerk.
Watch Reservoir Dogs just for the opening sequence where they talk about tipping to get an idea of what the deal is. It's the same problem with the cooks--who are all basically barely paid Mexicans at this point. There's no reason to pay them more, so nobody does. So if you become a waiter, you need tips, because nobody else is going to pay you better and it's basically just recognized as how they make money. Some resturants even get away with paying them as little as a dollar fifty an hour. $1.50 is not a lot of money to make per hour. That's uncommon, but working under minimum wage isn't, since tips are part of your income. I think they're also taxed, but I doubt anyone ever reports them, heh.
That's the biggest reason why I do consider it bullshit. Tipping provides such a huge degree of the money made by waiters, and it's unevenly and often unfairly distributed. There's no cap or minimum, and what my co-workers say is fair is between equal to and twice tax. For a quick meal that's cheap, that may be like two bucks. So I either tip along with them, or I look like a jerk.
Watch Reservoir Dogs just for the opening sequence where they talk about tipping to get an idea of what the deal is. It's the same problem with the cooks--who are all basically barely paid Mexicans at this point. There's no reason to pay them more, so nobody does. So if you become a waiter, you need tips, because nobody else is going to pay you better and it's basically just recognized as how they make money. Some resturants even get away with paying them as little as a dollar fifty an hour. $1.50 is not a lot of money to make per hour. That's uncommon, but working under minimum wage isn't, since tips are part of your income. I think they're also taxed, but I doubt anyone ever reports them, heh.
Oh how I have ranted about this one...
Is it BS? Yes. We, as customers, are expected to give people money on top of their goddamned hourly wage... and for doing what? It's usually for bringing our food to us, and maybe for giving us a replacement fork because the dishwasher decided to leave a snot rocket on the old one that was passed along to the customer.
And when you complain about it, you usually get something like, "hey, they only make 8 dollars an hour! They need the money!" My answer: GET ANOTHER GODDAMNED JOB! Why is it my responsibility to make sure you get your money? What did I do to deserve this??? Eat somewhere other than my living room or the McDonald's down the street??
Take it up with your manager if you need more money!!! That's all I'm saying! Is this out of line?? IS IT???
Oh, and then there's the masseuse... Yeah, the high school drop out who couldn't make it in to beauty school... These people expect something along the lines of 20+ percent of their fee for rubbing you down in your hotel room or their place of business... That's right, they rub on you, like they do to every other goddamn person they deal with, and expect a huge tip on top of their outrageously high hourly wage.
And the best one... the king of all is Vegas... Yeah, when you get your bill with a 20% gratuity added ONTO THE GODDAMNED BILL, they think they're somehow doing you a favor. That's right, in Vegas you are not only expected to tip, but you're literally forced into doing it. Not only do you get raped from the slots in the Hilton, they're going to see to it you pay that gratuity. Then when you make an issue out of it, they fall back on the infallible "it's our policy" line. Right... What about MY POLICY?? THE POLICY I HAVE ABOUT NOT TIPPING!!??
And who decided that I have to tip the waiter, the masseuse, the valet attendant guy and the hair cutter? Why not the Burger King employee or the mail carrier? Who decided that they have the mighty coveted jobs where extra money is expected??? It makes no goddamn sense at all, but everyone mindlessly goes along with it... so the one person who questions why we have to do it is somehow deemed to be the insensitive asshole.
That's right you lemmings, keep tipping... just keep tipping!
Is it BS? Yes. We, as customers, are expected to give people money on top of their goddamned hourly wage... and for doing what? It's usually for bringing our food to us, and maybe for giving us a replacement fork because the dishwasher decided to leave a snot rocket on the old one that was passed along to the customer.
And when you complain about it, you usually get something like, "hey, they only make 8 dollars an hour! They need the money!" My answer: GET ANOTHER GODDAMNED JOB! Why is it my responsibility to make sure you get your money? What did I do to deserve this??? Eat somewhere other than my living room or the McDonald's down the street??
Take it up with your manager if you need more money!!! That's all I'm saying! Is this out of line?? IS IT???
Oh, and then there's the masseuse... Yeah, the high school drop out who couldn't make it in to beauty school... These people expect something along the lines of 20+ percent of their fee for rubbing you down in your hotel room or their place of business... That's right, they rub on you, like they do to every other goddamn person they deal with, and expect a huge tip on top of their outrageously high hourly wage.
And the best one... the king of all is Vegas... Yeah, when you get your bill with a 20% gratuity added ONTO THE GODDAMNED BILL, they think they're somehow doing you a favor. That's right, in Vegas you are not only expected to tip, but you're literally forced into doing it. Not only do you get raped from the slots in the Hilton, they're going to see to it you pay that gratuity. Then when you make an issue out of it, they fall back on the infallible "it's our policy" line. Right... What about MY POLICY?? THE POLICY I HAVE ABOUT NOT TIPPING!!??
And who decided that I have to tip the waiter, the masseuse, the valet attendant guy and the hair cutter? Why not the Burger King employee or the mail carrier? Who decided that they have the mighty coveted jobs where extra money is expected??? It makes no goddamn sense at all, but everyone mindlessly goes along with it... so the one person who questions why we have to do it is somehow deemed to be the insensitive asshole.
That's right you lemmings, keep tipping... just keep tipping!
Labor laws? In the US? Don't be ridiculous. Seriously, they have some, but compared to most of the Western world, the protections a worker enjoys are rather meager.
As far as tipping goes, it's not the default here. When you get the bill, you are not necessarily expected to tip and there's no stigma for not tipping. If we go out to some real restaurant and the service is good, I tend to leave a tip, but it's not going to be more than €5 or 6€, depending on how final sum would round up to the nearest ten or five. Given what a typical restaurant meal costs here and our minimum wage laws and other such, tipping sure as hell is not an entitlement.
On the other hand, whenever I go to Tallinn in Estonia, just across the Gulf of Finland from here, I make a point of giving fairly generous (but not extravagant) tips in restaurants because over there it is the custom, the service is invariably excellent, the food delicious and the prices very affordable. Once I did happen to accidentally give a massive tip over there, there was one extra 100 krooni bill that had been stuck to another so I didn't notice it until afterward. No wonder they gave us such a sendoff in that place, it was basically an extra 20% tip on top of the regular tip we had put there. Not that it was a serious mistake, 100 krooni is about €6.60.
As far as tipping goes, it's not the default here. When you get the bill, you are not necessarily expected to tip and there's no stigma for not tipping. If we go out to some real restaurant and the service is good, I tend to leave a tip, but it's not going to be more than €5 or 6€, depending on how final sum would round up to the nearest ten or five. Given what a typical restaurant meal costs here and our minimum wage laws and other such, tipping sure as hell is not an entitlement.
On the other hand, whenever I go to Tallinn in Estonia, just across the Gulf of Finland from here, I make a point of giving fairly generous (but not extravagant) tips in restaurants because over there it is the custom, the service is invariably excellent, the food delicious and the prices very affordable. Once I did happen to accidentally give a massive tip over there, there was one extra 100 krooni bill that had been stuck to another so I didn't notice it until afterward. No wonder they gave us such a sendoff in that place, it was basically an extra 20% tip on top of the regular tip we had put there. Not that it was a serious mistake, 100 krooni is about €6.60.
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John Howard's new IR laws should take care of that.Stark wrote:In Australia, with award wages defined by the government or industry bodies, there is no equivalent to the laughably low US wages in this industry.
My general rule is if I think the waiter did more than their job description says, I tip (only around 10%). For example being quick and unnoticable with drink refills and taking away plates. At other times, I just round my bill up (by tipping the $1 or $2 change I would have received) if the service was good, but not groundbreaking. If I think they just do exactly what they have to do (or less) then I think it's fair that they get paid exactly what they have to get paid.
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Unless you only call for a ride during slow business hours or once in a blue moon, it's a pretty good idea to tip your cab driver.
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Erik von Nein
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Depends on the state. California, for example, forces businesses to pay a living wage (at least minimum wage) to their wait staff.DEATH wrote:Don't you have labour laws forbidding the employer to force waiters to rely on tips?
And what's all this talk of 10-15%? A couple of my friends got really mad at me one night when I left a 15% tip. They went off on how 20% was right and that 15% was only done when you had poor service.
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darthbob88
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According to the Dept of Labor, the Federal minimum wage overall is $5.15 per hour. Ignoring whether somebody can live on that wage, the Federal minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13 per hour, provided that the tips the worker regularly receives are enough to bring their income to $5.15 per hour. Otherwise, the employer must cover the difference themselves. Further, if an employee falls under both state and Federal laws, s/he is entitled to the most advantageous provisions of each. DoL on minimum wage.
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The very idea of US$2 (AU$2.50) an hour simply boggles my mind. Over 21, I'd be shocked to see a job paying less than AU$10. Juniors get less - say in fast food, AU$7-11 - but two fifty an hour?
Well, if John Howard has his way our labour wages will become internationally compeditive... ie, shit. Yay! Vote for him again everyone!
Well, if John Howard has his way our labour wages will become internationally compeditive... ie, shit. Yay! Vote for him again everyone!
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Nephtys
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I worked at a resturaunt during weekends back in high school. I only got $2 an hour like everyone else, but expected tips to make up the difference. It tended to work out to something like $15 an hour of tips, so it actually was pretty good.
However, not tipping at all tends to be 'assholish', without a decent reason. I don't know if I agree with that, I just remember this one 10-member Redneck family who bothered me for about an hour, and left no tip. Now that's assholish.
However, not tipping at all tends to be 'assholish', without a decent reason. I don't know if I agree with that, I just remember this one 10-member Redneck family who bothered me for about an hour, and left no tip. Now that's assholish.
Does anyone remember that 3rd Rock From the Sun episode where Dick was introduced to the notion of tipping?
That would be an awesome thing to do; place a wad of cash on the table, inform the waiter that this is his tip and that you will be deducting from it or adding to it depending on the quality of service .... although that would probably make them 'spit in your soup and piss in your coffee' from the get go, but it would be pretty god darn funny.
That would be an awesome thing to do; place a wad of cash on the table, inform the waiter that this is his tip and that you will be deducting from it or adding to it depending on the quality of service .... although that would probably make them 'spit in your soup and piss in your coffee' from the get go, but it would be pretty god darn funny.
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The traditions here (and tipping really is just a cultural tradition) is similar to what Edi described. You are only expected to tip if you were pleased with the service or meal. The bon ton tip is 8% for good service, however in practice its usually the roundup to the nearest 10, or the next one if the bill was already in the 8s or 9s if the service was really good.
I was actually given dirty looks in America for following our custom instead of the American exorbitant 10-20% and actually not tipping in cases when service was merely adequate or sub-par.
I was actually given dirty looks in America for following our custom instead of the American exorbitant 10-20% and actually not tipping in cases when service was merely adequate or sub-par.
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bilateralrope
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Let me get this right. You were expected to tip even in the case of poor service, just at a lesser rate ?Erik von Nein wrote:Depends on the state. California, for example, forces businesses to pay a living wage (at least minimum wage) to their wait staff.DEATH wrote:Don't you have labour laws forbidding the employer to force waiters to rely on tips?
And what's all this talk of 10-15%? A couple of my friends got really mad at me one night when I left a 15% tip. They went off on how 20% was right and that 15% was only done when you had poor service.
I've got no problem with service charges built into the bill as the staff do need to be payed. Then again, I don't think I've heard of anyone tipping in New Zealand.