Is tipping a bullshit custom?

[mr friendly guy]

Tipping, whats that?

As Stark already mentioned, current conditions are such that the we need to tip to give waiters a decent wage doesn't apply here. So generally I don't tip. The only time I tipped was when I was overseas, and that was because I was unfamiliar with the custom, so I thought I would play it safe.

[Kane Starkiller]

I was actually given dirty looks in America for following our custom instead of the American exorbitant 10-20% and actually not tipping in cases when service was merely adequate or sub-par.

Wait 'till they get a load of me. If you charge Coke 200% of what it costs in the store then that means you already included "the service and the tip" and any other imaginable shit so you won't be getting a dime from me.
If they want a tip they can charge me 13,99kn for Coke and maybe I won't bother with the change.

[Andrew J.]

For waiters and waitresses? Those poor bastards need all the help they can get. I can't begrudge those poor souls some extra money.

Now barbers that charge 12 bucks a haircut and still have a tip jar? That's some serious bullshit.

[Teleros]

Depends on the situation I think. I don't begrudge tipping waiters or the driver of a black cab unless the service is appalling, and they often need the money. I tend to either stick a bit on to round up or give about 10% myself. On the other hand the "lazy £20" for the £60 haircut (!) is just a case of showing off - but then if you can afford it frankly why not?

[Pick]

I always saw tipping like this:

A person makes a shit wage, and I mean a really shit wage. They can make a decent wage, because if they're good at what they do, people will supplement it when come time for the bill. The customers are aware of this. Overseas, where tipping is not done, there is no positive/negative (depending on how you look at it) feedback for how good someone is at their job. The service charge is built in and you make the same amount of money no matter what, so there's no reason for anyone to work harder than strictly necessary. The only difference I see in that in one event there's no recourse for bad service.

Not tipping in America, currently, I consider completely inappropriate unless the person is terrible. If you have enough money to be eating out, then you have enough money to assist someone in having an almost living wage.

I've known enough people in food service that I always tip high. For the most part, they're decent people who could use a bit of help. Again, if I have the money to sit on my ass while other people serve me, I won't be stingy.

[Lusankya]

I always saw tipping like this:

A person makes a shit wage, and I mean a really shit wage. They can make a decent wage, because if they're good at what they do, people will supplement it when come time for the bill. The customers are aware of this. Overseas, where tipping is not done, there is no positive/negative (depending on how you look at it) feedback for how good someone is at their job. The service charge is built in and you make the same amount of money no matter what, so there's no reason for anyone to work harder than strictly necessary. The only difference I see in that in one event there's no recourse for bad service.

That argument only really works if tipping's not so ingrained that it's practically obligatory, which, as I understand it, is pretty much the case in America.

[Pick]

Worst-case scenario: if it's ingrained, it's exactly the same as anywhere else, only you have to do the math yourself. At least you have the option in the US of not tipping. If you choose not to take advantage of it--when appropriate--that's your failing.

[Crown]

The service charge is built in and you make the same amount of money no matter what, so there's no reason for anyone to work harder than strictly necessary. The only difference I see in that in one event there's no recourse for bad service.

Of course there is; you stand to lose customers. If service is shitty people will not go back there again.

Not tipping in America, currently, I consider completely inappropriate unless the person is terrible. If you have enough money to be eating out, then you have enough money to assist someone in having an almost living wage.

Not tipping just to be an asshole is being - well - an asshole. Expected to tip for so-so service is bizarre.

I've known enough people in food service that I always tip high. For the most part, they're decent people who could use a bit of help. Again, if I have the money to sit on my ass while other people serve me, I won't be stingy.

This is just asinine. The issue isn't whether we want to help out people who have shittier jobs than us, the issue is why we are obliged to do so when the service is shoddy.

Yes by all means, be a nice person, I'm a nice person too. But I worked damn hard for my cash, surely I get to decide that if the service was just barely good, then I can demonstrate my displeasure by not tipping. They want tips, it's not hard to get them, provide good service. Easy.

[Lusankya]

Worst-case scenario: if it's ingrained, it's exactly the same as anywhere else, only you have to do the math yourself. At least you have the option in the US of not tipping. If you choose not to take advantage of it--when appropriate--that's your failing.

But there are other ways of letting people know about poor service.

Complaining for example. This method has the added advantage of letting the person giving the poor service know which ways their service is terrible.

Or not returning to a restaurant with crappy service.

And why should I have to do the maths myself when I go to the restaurant, anyway? When I go out to eat, I want to eat, and not find myself forced to multiply by fractions because of some asinine custom.

[Pick]

The service charge is built in and you make the same amount of money no matter what, so there's no reason for anyone to work harder than strictly necessary. The only difference I see in that in one event there's no recourse for bad service.

Of course there is; you stand to lose customers. If service is shitty people will not go back there again.

Tipping is more immediate and direct to those who are failing to perform. If a standard income is removed from the total bill, the business is the one that stands to lose, at which point they must identify the problems and go through the process of solving it. It seems like more work to me, but if a decent minimum wage were paid to the workers, I wouldn't mind either way.

Not tipping in America, currently, I consider completely inappropriate unless the person is terrible. If you have enough money to be eating out, then you have enough money to assist someone in having an almost living wage.

Not tipping just to be an asshole is being - well - an asshole. Expected to tip for so-so service is bizarre.

Not when it's part of the standard system so that these people can make a wage worth working for.

I've known enough people in food service that I always tip high. For the most part, they're decent people who could use a bit of help. Again, if I have the money to sit on my ass while other people serve me, I won't be stingy.

This is just asinine. The issue isn't whether we want to help out people who have shittier jobs than us, the issue is why we are obliged to do so when the service is shoddy.

Yes by all means, be a nice person, I'm a nice person too. But I worked damn hard for my cash, surely I get to decide that if the service was just barely good, then I can demonstrate my displeasure by not tipping. They want tips, it's not hard to get them, provide good service. Easy.

Not tipping in America means that you're part of reducing a person to, as darthbob mentioned, $2.13 USD an hour. It's not about being charitable, it's about not seriously undermining their needed income.

If you really want a decent income built into the system instead of tipping, then that's fine. All that means is you're losing control over whether or not you wish to tip someone who is poor at his or her job. That's all.

----

Lus:

Yes, there are other ways of telling people that their service is bad. Now, do you think they'll care more if it is or is not reflected in their income?

And boo hoo hoo if you can't take 15% of a number. If it's that bad, get a pocket calculator.

---

In closing: I believe you should tip decently to bring people up to a minimum wage bracket if their service is adequate, because otherwise their wages are laughable. If you want to just pay the additional amount included in your bill as part of how society handles the issue, that is fine with me too. I just don't know why you'd want to relinquish the power to indicate when you think the service was bad, but that's your prerogative.

[Crown]

Tipping is more immediate and direct to those who are failing to perform. If a standard income is removed from the total bill, the business is the one that stands to lose, at which point they must identify the problems and go through the process of solving it. It seems like more work to me, but if a decent minimum wage were paid to the workers, I wouldn't mind either way.

Huh ... ?

I have a feeling that you're going to contradict yourself below.

Not when it's part of the standard system so that these people can make a wage worth working for.

Not my problem, and not one they really have to worry about if they provide good service.

Not tipping in America means that you're part of reducing a person to, as darthbob mentioned, $2.13 USD an hour. It's not about being charitable, it's about not seriously undermining their needed income.

See you did just contradict yourself. I understand the difference of 'charity' and their shitty wages, but if tipping is meant to be a more 'immediate and direct [communication of displeasure] to those who are failing to perform' then why the hell are you telling me not tipping them is being an asshole?

If you really want a decent income built into the system instead of tipping, then that's fine. All that means is you're losing control over whether or not you wish to tip someone who is poor at his or her job. That's all.

Okay, at this point it appears to me that one of us (or both of us) has no idea what the fuck the other is arguing.

I have no problem in tipping if the service warrants it, but I'm sure as shit not going to tip for crappy service. I don't care if that reduces them down to $2.13 USD or $0.01 USD an hour. They want my fucking money, they are going to have to provide adequate service.

[aerius]

When I was younger I had some acquaintances who were waiters & busboys, given what they were making I don't feel inclined to tip unless I get exceptional service. The automatic 10% is BS, why do they deserve an unconditional bonus? I never got a free bonus when I was working retail & customer service. Why should the waitress get an extra dollar every time she brings me a beer, she's not even pouring it, she's either picking it up from the bartender or the fridge, it's what the bar pays her to do. If she's hot and sticks around a bit so I can stare at her tits, then sure that's probably worth a buck, but other than that I don't get it.

So basically what's ended up happening is that there's a short list of places where I'll eat out and tip because the service is great and they deserve it, and a real long list of places I'm never going to again due to mediocre service, which I don't tip for.

[Pick]

Not when it's part of the standard system so that these people can make a wage worth working for.

Not my problem, and not one they really have to worry about if they provide good service.

... You believe that if the service is merely passable, these people should need to survive on $2.13 cents an hour?

Harsh.

Not tipping in America means that you're part of reducing a person to, as darthbob mentioned, $2.13 USD an hour. It's not about being charitable, it's about not seriously undermining their needed income.

See you did just contradict yourself. I understand the difference of 'charity' and their shitty wages, but if tipping is meant to be a more 'immediate and direct [communication of displeasure] to those who are failing to perform' then why the hell are you telling me not tipping them is being an asshole?

I did not contradict myself. I believe you should be able to not tip people who are doing badly. I don't believe that you should refrain from tipping someone who is doing adequately. Otherwise, their wage is not acceptable.

If you really want a decent income built into the system instead of tipping, then that's fine. All that means is you're losing control over whether or not you wish to tip someone who is poor at his or her job. That's all.

Okay, at this point it appears to me that one of us (or both of us) has no idea what the fuck the other is arguing.

I have no problem in tipping if the service warrants it, but I'm sure as shit not going to tip for crappy service. I don't care if that reduces them down to $2.13 USD or $0.01 USD an hour. They want my fucking money, they are going to have to provide adequate service.

I don't agree with tipping for crappy service. I believe that you should not tip if the service is bad, as a way to indicate that they need to improve. If the service is okay, I think you should tip. Otherwise, they're not making minimum wage, which is unacceptable.

However, as I said, if you want them to be paid minimum wage as a baseline and not be expected to tip as a result (even though you're paying a higher price as a result, just built into your bill), that's fine too. But you've lost the ability to inform people of their bad service via a means which might be most effective.

[Setesh]

Several people have mentioned the absolutly shitty wages US waitstaff get (Where I work its 1/2 the minmum wage) what I haven't seen anyone mention (and the real reason I feel obligated to tip) is: They are taxed on the expected tip regardless of whether or not they get it.

[aerius]

I did not contradict myself. I believe you should be able to not tip people who are doing badly. I don't believe that you should refrain from tipping someone who is doing adequately. Otherwise, their wage is not acceptable.

Let me use an analogy here. Does a passable student, whose marks are around the class average get gold stars and a college scholarship?

[Pick]

I did not contradict myself. I believe you should be able to not tip people who are doing badly. I don't believe that you should refrain from tipping someone who is doing adequately. Otherwise, their wage is not acceptable.

Let me use an analogy here. Does a passable student, whose marks are around the class average get gold stars and a college scholarship?

That's the falsest analogy I've ever heard.

A passable student should get a pass. A passable worker should get minimum wage; that's what it's there for. I don't think minimum wage="gold stars and a college scholarship".

[Pick]

(To clarify, again, a tipped worker, such as a waitress, in the US does not earn minimum wage without tips. And, as Setesh noted, they're taxed on the presumption that they've been given tips. That is, if you don't tip, they are paying to serve you. A punishment I don't think should be doled out to someone doing an acceptable, if not fantastic, job.)

[Lusankya]

Yes, there are other ways of telling people that their service is bad. Now, do you think they'll care more if it is or is not reflected in their income?

I rarely have problems with service in my non-tipping culture, and when I do, the wait staff do their best to make up for it. I dunno. Perhaps American culture is different from Australian culture, and you need immediate gratification in order to do the job you're fucking paid to do well.

And boo hoo hoo if you can't take 15% of a number. If it's that bad, get a pocket calculator.

I can multiply by 23/20 just fine thankyou. I just don't like it. I'd rather that someone had already done the maths for me and put it in the bill, because I'm one of those strange, perverted people who doesn't do tedious arithmetic problems for fun.

In closing: I believe you should tip decently to bring people up to a minimum wage bracket if their service is adequate, because otherwise their wages are laughable.

I believe that people should be paid a decent wage in the first place.

If you want to just pay the additional amount included in your bill as part of how society handles the issue, that is fine with me too. I just don't know why you'd want to relinquish the power to indicate when you think the service was bad, but that's your prerogative.

You still have the power to indicate when the service is bad. And the waitstaff are still paid an amount that doesn't almost equate to slave labour, which is, you know, nice.

Several people have mentioned the absolutly shitty wages US waitstaff get (Where I work its 1/2 the minmum wage) what I haven't seen anyone mention (and the real reason I feel obligated to tip) is: They are taxed on the expected tip regardless of whether or not they get it.

Somehow I suspect that getting taxed on the tips is a side-effect of tipping being required, and just makes me believe that automatic tipping is retarded. They're basically being taxed on the assumption that they will receive undeclared income, despite the fact that they actually have no guarantee of receiving said income.

Hey, I'm super hot, so I can easily get my male friends to buy me stuff or lend me money! Perhaps I should get taxed on that, too! The government could easily assume that I can get that money, so why not?

[Pick]

Lus:

My argument was based on the presumption that they are not paid a decent wage, as is the current status quo. As I have repeatedly mentioned, I'm ambivalent to whether it is factored in or not. I don't know why other people would want to wish away that power, but it's never affected me personally. I've never eaten out and thought the service was so bad I wouldn't tip.

[Jim Raynor]

I have often thought about this topic as well, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks tipping is bullshit.

It's supposed to be money for service, but let's cut the crap. The waiter isn't doing things for you. He's doing a job and being paid by his boss. Why don't other workers, like those who work in concession stands, or guide a customer around a store, receive tips?

Sure, the waiters are paid like shit because their bosses expect them to receive tips. But even if you want to put aside the argument that if they should stop bitching and accept their crappy pay (other minimum wage workers do), that just means their employer should pay more. Why should the costs be passed down to the customer?

[mr friendly guy]

Why should the costs be passed down to the customer?

Assuming they get rid of tipping and introduce better pay for waiters, won't the cost just be passed down to the customer in the form of higher charges for food?

On another note, how much does it cost to eat out in countries which have tipping. Obviously it will vary from place to place even in the same country. The reason I ask is I want to try and compare costs of eating out in countries which have better minimum wage conditions, and hence doesn't have much tipping compared to countries which you are expected to tip.

Over here, it can cost between $45 to $60 AUD to feed 4 people in a Chinese restaurants. At some Western restaurants it can cost me $15-$25 to feed just myself. Darth Wong has already compared costs in Canada, but how does this compare to the US. Keep in mind 1 Australian dollar buys 82 US cents.

[Akhlut]

And what's all this talk of 10-15%? A couple of my friends got really mad at me one night when I left a 15% tip. They went off on how 20% was right and that 15% was only done when you had poor service.

I preferred my brother's method for 'tipping' for bad service. You leave a penny. That way, they know you didn't just forget the tip, but you're not forced to part with any significant money.

[tim31]

Well, if John Howard has his way our labour wages will become internationally compeditive... ie, shit. Yay! Vote for him again everyone!

Oh, they will, Stark. They will.

As another Australian example of US infection, the wage for Domino's drivers is the same as the wage for the U.S drivers; the difference being that the U.S drivers can count on tips.

Personally, if I feel satisfied after the meal, and the staff were friendly, I tip, but only into tipping jars. I don't go for indivdual tips.

[aerius]

(To clarify, again, a tipped worker, such as a waitress, in the US does not earn minimum wage without tips. And, as Setesh noted, they're taxed on the presumption that they've been given tips. That is, if you don't tip, they are paying to serve you. A punishment I don't think should be doled out to someone doing an acceptable, if not fantastic, job.)

Maybe they should I don't know, read up on and know their worker's rights and join or form a union and negotiate for better wages and workers' rights? It's not like they're illegal immigrants who'll be thrown in jail and/or deported. darthbob88 made a post which links to the department of labour's laws, and I can bet you that at least 90% of waiters don't know about them and are getting shafted by their employers as a result.

The way I see it, as long as tipping is the standard the waiters have little reason to demand a proper minimum wage since they know that as long as they serve X number of customers they're covered. Management knows this too so they sure as hell ain't gonna dish out proper wages. We, as the customers are enabling this charade to continue, if a significant number of us got fed up and quit the waiters would be hurting, then they'd have some real incentive to either quit or make life a living hell for management until the pay situation is fixed.

[Pick]

Wow, aerius! It's so simple! Why didn't I see it all before?