Is tipping a bullshit custom?

[Darth Wong]

Pick, you're full of shit. If an employee is being underpaid, he should quit. There is no reason why third parties should be expected to make up the shortfall. If you can explain why a dispute between party A and party B should involve money being extorted from party C, do it now.

All of the other arguments about labour laws being adjusted to compensate for this custom are beside the point; those changes (if they are indeed legitimate) were made as a reaction to this custom, so they do not justify it.

[Pick]

In this case, it involves party C in either event. You cover it directly or indirectly. If the restaurant has to cover a higher cost of doing business, it will be reflected in the cost of the meal. You're going to pay the "tip" either way.

The only difference is between whether or not you are potentially capable of not paying the tip.

Additionally, if the waitstaff (etc) are unwilling to work for the lower price (in the scenario where tips are not part of the cultural norm and we're using the $2.13 figure), the price will increase to the point where the restaurant can function again. Most likely, this would be minimum wage. In order to cover this higher cost of production, meal prices will increase. Since this would be a happening across the board, we can assume that it would remain a relative constant among restaurants, so they could safely do this without much problem in terms of professional competition.

The customer pays the difference in either case.

However, as I have stated in every post I have made on the topic, whichever method society chooses doesn't matter to me. However, currently, with the unacceptably low wage of these workers combined with the fact that they pay taxes on this presumed income, it is appropriate to tip.

[Darth Wong]

In this case, it involves party C in either event. You cover it directly or indirectly. If the restaurant has to cover a higher cost of doing business, it will be reflected in the cost of the meal. You're going to pay the "tip" either way.

I'd rather pay higher prices than have this nebulous "tip" bullshit, which falls disproportionately on certain customers. For example, a family restaurant would probably tend to keep the kids' meal costs low by putting more of the price increase on the adult meals. But under the tipping scheme, a family gets shafted. Also, if you go out to eat with coworkers, the cheap-ass coworkers always walk away paying very little of the tip, leaving the more conscientious people to pick up the slack. If these costs were incorporated into the price up-front, this wouldn't happen.

The only difference is between whether or not you are potentially capable of not paying the tip.

Which you are not, in any practical sense, if there is an implicit threat that you will be mistreated for not doing so (and I've known enough people in that business to know that this threat is real).

Additionally, if the waitstaff (etc) are unwilling to work for the lower price (in the scenario where tips are not part of the cultural norm and we're using the $2.13 figure), the price will increase to the point where the restaurant can function again. Most likely, this would be minimum wage. In order to cover this higher cost of production, meal prices will increase. Since this would be a happening across the board, we can assume that it would remain a relative constant among restaurants, so they could safely do this without much problem in terms of professional competition.

The customer pays the difference in either case.

And if that happened, then in addition to being more fairly distributed, the stated concept of the tip would actually become true again; a tip would actually be a reward for good service, not an expectation for mediocre performance.

However, as I have stated in every post I have made on the topic, whichever method society chooses doesn't matter to me. However, currently, with the unacceptably low wage of these workers combined with the fact that they pay taxes on this presumed income, it is appropriate to tip.

The word "appropriate" is just another word for "expected". Of course it's "appropriate" to tip. The question posed by this thread is whether this entire custom is reasonable.

[aerius]

In this case, it involves party C in either event. You cover it directly or indirectly. If the restaurant has to cover a higher cost of doing business, it will be reflected in the cost of the meal. You're going to pay the "tip" either way.

The only difference is between whether or not you are potentially capable of not paying the tip.

So let's say tips are now included in the meal and the restaurant pays a decent wage. If a waiter gives poors service I still have the option of discussing the issue with the manager(s) and optionally causing a nice scene while doing so. I'll bet you that will have much more immediate effects than not leaving a tip for a lousy waiter. And if the waiter was particularly good, I still have the option of leaving him a few extra bucks to show my gratitude. It's not like a system where the waiters are properly salaried and paid will somehow fuck over the restaurant/waiter/customer relationship dynamics.

[brianeyci]

The only justification I can think for tipping rather than incorporating it into the price is not everybody likes making a scene or confrontations or complaining. The quiet guy who doesn't like making a scene knows that if he gets shit service he can retaliate by not giving money rather than doing something he doesn't feel comfortable doing, and not everybody is like Mike or aerius and can scream in someone's face. And the waiter knows it, he gives shit service he doesn't get enough to feed himself, waiters live on tips. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with confronting, it might even be good, but that's the only real justification if prices were fair. If they aren't, and the owner is fucking over the employees with a shit wage, well time to tip, and that's the reality. By the way a few bucks is a lot of money to people making minimum wage so I wouldn't dismiss it. The only way to get rid of tips forever is give waiters a living wage and every time people mention living wage there's a lot of ruckus.

[Darth Wong]

To be honest, despite the tips, I don't find that most waiters and waitresses are really working that hard to make me happy anyway. Once it becomes an expectation, then it's just like any other expectation: you take it for granted. You can tell when a waiter or waitress really wants that tip, and it definitely isn't happening all the time.

[aerius]

You can say that again. When I'm getting better service from the barmaid at the strip club than from waitresses at many restaurants, you could say there's a problem.

[Darth Servo]

I eat only at places where tipping is expected only a few times a year anyway so I haven't thought much about it. It does need to become less of an expectation and more of a reward for service above and beyond the call of duty.

[Kane Starkiller]

What the hell do waiters do anyway? Bring the food from the kitchen to the table? That's what 10-20 meters?
If the food is really good then you should give the biggest tip to the chef and not the guy who carried it for a few meters anyway.

[Wyrm]

What the hell do waiters do anyway? Bring the food from the kitchen to the table? That's what 10-20 meters?

Waitstaff does a bit more than that. They have to get the orders to the chef in the first place, recommend dishes, memorize the menu (ask a waiter to explain some of the dishes in more detail—at good restraunts, you get a pretty detailed description... even at Jay's, which is NOT a hoity-toity restraunt) and the wine list as well as the day's specials, memorize a code that describes the order in a few symbols, remeber who ordered what, note customer modifications if any, keep that water glass refilled, carry a LOT of dishes with two arms, be the first line of defense against a nasty customer, and so on.

Add on top of that the fact that customers outnumber waitstaff, and you get a pretty busy bunch of people.

Doesn't sound so simple now, does it?

If the food is really good then you should give the biggest tip to the chef and not the guy who carried it for a few meters anyway.

You don't tip for good food, dearheart. You tip for service.

[Kane Starkiller]

Waitstaff does a bit more than that. They have to get the orders to the chef in the first place, recommend dishes, memorize the menu (ask a waiter to explain some of the dishes in more detail—at good restraunts, you get a pretty detailed description... even at Jay's, which is NOT a hoity-toity restraunt) and the wine list as well as the day's specials, memorize a code that describes the order in a few symbols, remeber who ordered what, note customer modifications if any, keep that water glass refilled, carry a LOT of dishes with two arms, be the first line of defense against a nasty customer, and so on.

Add on top of that the fact that customers outnumber waitstaff, and you get a pretty busy bunch of people.

First of all every restauraunt I've ever been to has a waiter writing the order on a paper so he doesn't need to remember shit. And if he chooses not to write it down he hardly deserves some special commendation for it.
Secondly, describing the dishes and recommendations, never asked for any of it so I really don't see why I should pay up for service I didn't even ask. Maybe one day I'll be in a situation where he'll recommend a really good dish so I might be inclined to give him a bonus but until that happens I really don't care whether he knows every dish in the menu by heart.
They carry a lot of dishes? Big fucking deal. Who washes the dishes? Do they get a tip?

Doesn't sound so simple now, does it?

Compared to mopping floors? No it doesn't.

You don't tip for good food, dearheart. You tip for service.

Which amounts to almost nothing. I ate in university cafeteria for 4 years which naturally had no waiter. The only "service" missing was a guy coming up to my table, taking order and then bringing the requested dish ten-fifteen minutes later.
Sure it is a service but seeing how dinner in cafeteria is order of magnitude cheaper than dinner in a restauraunt I think that their service is already paid for.

[Netko]

Sure it is a service but seeing how dinner in cafeteria is order of magnitude cheaper than dinner in a restauraunt I think that their service is already paid for.

That isn't quite true. The actual prices in university cafeterias are actually only somewhat lower then restaurant prices, you just get a massive subsidy courtesy of the MZoS (Ministry of Science and Sports). An usual lunch in a university cafeteria costs ~35-50kn, out of which you pay 6-10kn, compared to a similar meal in a restaurant which should cost in the 60-80kn range per person.

So while still substantially cheaper, university cafeteria food is not an order of a magnitude cheaper.

Your point still stands though - the difference in prices is still more then adequate to account for the service.

[Darth Wong]

If tipping corresponded to the complexity of the work, people would tip doctors with huge sums of money. Let's drop this asinine attempt to elevate waitressing to some kind of intellectually taxing job.

[Darth Servo]

Waitstaff does a bit more than that. They have to get the orders to the chef in the first place, recommend dishes, memorize the menu (ask a waiter to explain some of the dishes in more detail—at good restraunts, you get a pretty detailed description... even at Jay's, which is NOT a hoity-toity restraunt) and the wine list as well as the day's specials, memorize a code that describes the order in a few symbols, remeber who ordered what, note customer modifications if any, keep that water glass refilled, carry a LOT of dishes with two arms, be the first line of defense against a nasty customer, and so on.

Add on top of that the fact that customers outnumber waitstaff, and you get a pretty busy bunch of people.

Doesn't sound so simple now, does it?

Its a hell of a lot simpler than your typical college science course. And I never got a tip for having to memorize most of the periodic table and the properties of the more common elements.

[Ghost Rider]

For me, I tip waiters more because I know of the pay sucking and having been there. Sure, it is asinine and barring personal view not much to defend.

As for the whole thought of it? I hope they'd one day completely fucking do away with it. There's something wrong when a job is such shit pay that the IRS actually considers it a part of your regular pay to be tipped they are informed of it as a part of your W-2. There's something equally wrong with a job that is such shit that you claw and grab for two, maybe three nights in a week to make ends meet.

Most countries that just have a waiting job as any other has it correct. US and the few places that still have it as "Shit pay, but you get tips!" is some serious backwards logic.

[Jaevric]

I'd love to see businesses do away with tipping and pay the wait staff a reasonable wage. I realize I'd have to pay more "up front" for the food, but if I knew it was basically the "tip" added in, I'd be fine with that.

The problem is that it's a custom, and it would be very hard to get people to suddenly start paying another 1-2 dollars a meal at an average restaraunt (around here) and not tip the wait staff.

Honestly, I can only remember not tipping on two occasions, both of which were due to truly bad service. Not merely mediocre, but outright "I think the waiter/waitress is making a conscious effort to be bad at his/her job."

[Pick]

Eh, conceded.

[Wyrm]

First of all every restauraunt I've ever been to has a waiter writing the order on a paper so he doesn't need to remember shit.

Have you even looked at a restraunt order? The waiter doesn't write down the full name of the order, as you state it. He writes down an abbreviation, which is understood by both him and the cooks. Furthermore, I don't see anything there, apart from the order (which is a system I suppose), that indicates which dish belongs to whom. When I order the same thing as my friend, the waiter puts a ditto mark.

There's definitely a skill to reading and writing these things. Not as much as an advanced degree, but hey!

And if he chooses not to write it down he hardly deserves some special commendation for it.

Who's saying that they are deserving special commendation? All I'm saying that waiting tables is a little more involved than your simplistic description.

Secondly, describing the dishes and recommendations, never asked for any of it so I really don't see why I should pay up for service I didn't even ask.

Because some patrons do ask for descriptions and recommendations and they expect an informed reply, asshat.

They carry a lot of dishes? Big fucking deal.

Sometimes a lot of dishes at once, at quite large mechanical disadvantages, and not spill them. I can barely carry two dishes at once with two hands, four if they're empty; I've seen waitstaff carry four fully-loaded dishes one-handed. It's not pumping iron, but hey!

Who washes the dishes?

They have to get to you for you to eat off, and then back before they can do that, moron.

Do they get a tip?

They don't, but I'm not arguing that anyone does or doesn't deserve a tip, as opposed to everyone getting a flat service charge.

Yes, waiting tables is meanial labor. That doesn't mean that it isn't nonetheless a demanding job. You make it sound like it's an easy job.

You don't tip for good food, dearheart. You tip for service.

Which amounts to almost nothing. I ate in university cafeteria for 4 years which naturally had no waiter. The only "service" missing was a guy coming up to my table, taking order and then bringing the requested dish ten-fifteen minutes later.

I didn't even have that. I had to scoop and serve my own tray for four years. You young 'uns are so spoiled.

Sure it is a service but seeing how dinner in cafeteria is order of magnitude cheaper than dinner in a restauraunt I think that their service is already paid for.

Yes, the food in your average university cafeteria is an order of magnitude cheaper than a dinner at a nice restraunt. Tastes that way, too. Gee, wonder why.

[Darth Wong]

There's definitely a skill to reading and writing these things. Not as much as an advanced degree, but hey!

Oh for fuck's sake, there's a "skill" to janitorial work too, not to mention exposure to hazardous chemicals. Are you going to run out and demand respect for janitors too?

[Stuart Mackey]

Don't you have labour laws forbidding the employer to force waiters to rely on tips?

Depends on the state. California, for example, forces businesses to pay a living wage (at least minimum wage) to their wait staff.

And what's all this talk of 10-15%? A couple of my friends got really mad at me one night when I left a 15% tip. They went off on how 20% was right and that 15% was only done when you had poor service.

Let me get this right. You were expected to tip even in the case of poor service, just at a lesser rate ?

I've got no problem with service charges built into the bill as the staff do need to be payed. Then again, I don't think I've heard of anyone tipping in New Zealand.

Its not expected, but some do for service 'above and beyoned the call'.

BTW, Hows piss up central..err Dunners?

[phred]

Does anyone remember that 3rd Rock From the Sun episode where Dick was introduced to the notion of tipping?

That would be an awesome thing to do; place a wad of cash on the table, inform the waiter that this is his tip and that you will be deducting from it or adding to it depending on the quality of service .... although that would probably make them 'spit in your soup and piss in your coffee' from the get go, but it would be pretty god darn funny.

I have a couple friends that do this on buisiness trips at really expensive restaraunts. the range of responses theyve gotten is interesting, and the waiters that play along ususally wind up with a huge tip(I think the highest was around 70% on a $200 bill)

[His Divine Shadow]

On the other hand, whenever I go to Tallinn in Estonia, just across the Gulf of Finland from here, I make a point of giving fairly generous (but not extravagant) tips in restaurants because over there it is the custom, the service is invariably excellent, the food delicious and the prices very affordable. Once I did happen to accidentally give a massive tip over there, there was one extra 100 krooni bill that had been stuck to another so I didn't notice it until afterward. No wonder they gave us such a sendoff in that place, it was basically an extra 20% tip on top of the regular tip we had put there. Not that it was a serious mistake, 100 krooni is about €6.60.

Good to know in case we go back there again. Poor taxi drivers I guess when looking at it that way, we didn't really tip them, except for one guy who just kept the change (only like 10 krooni), we kinda wondered if we where going to get it back but after a while we just got out of the cab, it was kinda funny really, we figured we had encountered some estonian custom there. Ah finnish ignorance

[Lord Pounder]

I must admit to having mixed feelings about this. When i left school I didn't have much in the way of qualifications, so I worked as a waiter and occasional kitchen porter to make ends meet while I attended night classes. Waitering is damn hard work, you do work long hours get all sorts of grief from customers AND chefs (some of whom happen to be the most arrogant ignorant bastards on the planet) and you get minimum wage, which for me at the time was about £3.50 and hour. WIthout the tips I got I'd never have been able to afford to live and pay for my classes, and I was living at home during that time so imagine what i'd have been like of i had real bills to pay.

Mr Pink had a good arguement for not tipping, if you don't like it learn to fucking type, what he missed was how the waiter/waitress is gonna pay to learn to type.

[Dahak]

As salm said, tipping isn't as expected here as in the US.
When just drinking a coffee or so I usually round up to the nearest full Euro (unless it's like 8,80, then I round up to maybe 9,50€). When going out to a full dinner, it is mostly one or two Euro of tip, depending on the quality and service. If it's bad service, bad quality, I also don't give a tip.

When we go in groups, most people do it like that. Once, we had an American with us, and when he paid his stuff, he gave the waitress this 10-15% thing, and the waitress explicitly asked if he was sure about it...

[Alferd Packer]

When I was in Berlin, almost every waiter I had was a total asshole to either me, or someone with me (like if their German was poor, or something). I had no problems not tipping them, even going so far as to request exact change. Even though I was in a foreign country, there was no reason to put up with someone being an asshole while being served by them.

Back here in the states, the number of asshole waiters goes down, because they know to at least pretend to be pleasant if they want to earn a living.

The way I see it, I don't have to go out to eat ever. Just by gracing their restaurant with my presence and choosing to spend my hard-earned money there, I'm already doing them a favor. It's entirely reasonable for me to expect that I'm served by a competant and pleasant person. I don't go out to be treated like shit, and if I am, I not only leave an absurdly small tip (a nickel or somesuch), but I will complain to the manager.

If I don't do my job, or do it exceedindly poorly, I'll get in trouble and I won't get paid. Why should it be any different for a waiter? So, in that respect, I think the notion of tipping is sound, as long as it's correctly applied. It's supposed to be a reward for good service or punishment for bad service. When it starts to be treated as an obligation by the customer to their waiter, it definitely strays into bullshit territory.