Space Marine ranks peculiarity; military help needed

[Elheru Aran]

Here's something I noticed a while back that's been niggling at me for a while...

According to Codex: Space Marine, the rank structure goes thusly, starting with Brother:

Brother (private? corporal?)>> Sergeant (in charge of squad of 10) >> Captain (in charge of a company of 100) >>> Commander/Chapter Master (in command of Chapter of 1000).

While on paper it kinda sorta makes sense, it doesn't to me.

See, having a Sergeant in charge of a squad, okay. But who comes between the Sergeant and the Captain? Shouldn't there be some kind of Lieutenant rank?

Also, the transition from Captain to Chapter Master is a bit abrupt. One would think there would be, say, someone in charge of perhaps every two or five Companies.

How is this explained? And would it work game-wise for the current rank structure to be modified?

[Teleros]

First off, remember that lots of chapters have variations on that basic layout, so it's not written in stone (except for the smurfmarines, but hey).

Anyway, I expect that in cases where a captain isn't needed they'll use a veteran sergeant or something similar - maybe call them force commander or whatever for the duration of the mission etc.

[Jaevric]

In a normal military organization, you'd be right.

However, the Space Marines don't often assign 2-3 Companies to the same duty--each Company operates independently of the others. There wouldn't be much point in having a Brother-Colonel commanding 2-5 Companies because those 2-5 Companies would rarely, if ever, be in the same place at the same time. They might be on different planets or even in different sectors fighting vastly different enemies. The "Brother-Colonel" would simply be operating as a "Brother-Captain" for the majority of the time.

Squads often operate independently as well, and when 2 or 3 squads do need to work together the senior Brother-Sergeant generally has command, depending on the Chapter of course. In "Sons of Fenris," Ragnar (Wolf Lord, same rank as Brother-Captain) assigns his Wolf Guard to command packs (squads) during a battle; he himself, in addition to retaining overall command, takes a "pack" of Blood Claws (newly-made Space Wolves who are prone to mindlessly charging into melee combat) to command. In that same book, the Dark Angels assign a squad to a Brother-Captain who is normally a member of the First Company (the Deathwing) and doesn't have a standard command.

Obviously the Space Marines consider a "Brother-Lieutenant" or "Brother-Colonel" rank to be superfluous; the fact that even a Chapter of Space Marines is a relatively small organization means that it can afford a lot more flexibility in its Table of Organization than a larger military could. Everyone in a Space Marine Company knows everyone else and knows his own position in the Company; there's no confusion about who is in charge when the commander gets killed, or who is in command if two or three squads are working together. It's whichever Sergeant is assigned to command by the Brother-Captain, and failing that, whichever Sergeant has seniority.

[Azazal]

Back in them there olden days, there was a company Lieutenant that was the the right hand man to the company commander, the chapter commander had a Lt. Commander as well. The Lts would handle many of the more routine things for the company, allowing the commander to focus on other large scale issues. Sadly with the advent of 2nd ed 40K, these roles were removed. But there is a tiny little saving grace that can be weaseled in. Chaplains, librarians, apothecaries, tech marines, and even dreadnoughts can be seen as helping to fill in the role. It is quite common for these specialist to be held outside of the normal command structure of a company, but they will be a fixed part of the company, depending on the chapter. A company will have an assigned chaplain, but Tech marines will usually be from the armory pool, but it is not uncommon for a one to be on long term "loan" to a company, same with librarians. Apothecaries are sometimes part of a company, as seen in Flight of the Eisienstien, or pooled from the Apothecary on a as needed basis. In most cases these specialists are veteran warriors that have proven themselves in battle and are well respected by the common marine. The company commander intern can use them as part of his over-all command to form his command staff, command squads in game terms. So while it may not be the traditional command structure we are sued to, it does there are some steps from marine to sgt to company commander, just not very clear.


As far as how the command structure works in 40k real life, it does make sense for a company commander to be one step below the chapter commander/master. More often then not, a company will be deployed away from the chapter on their own for extended periods of time. The company will need to have quick and effective decisions on the spot. If a commander way trying to lead 2 or 3 companies on different campaigns at once, the lag in communication and such would be too costly in the long run.

[Shortie]

Remember that there are only four companies which are normally committed as complete units, it's very rare for the reserve, scout or vet companies to do so.

Most of the time they seem to send a squad or two or a reinforced company, which can be comanded by a vet sarge or a captain respectively.

That said, I agree that they need some more officers, but it makes a kind of sense for troops that elite and specialist.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Jaevric explains it well -- there is simply no need for extra ranks. In addition to his points, I'd also point out a Space Marine's role and its closest modern day analogue, namely special forces. Whereas in a normal modern military unit you have a sergeant leading a squad of privates, lieutenant leading a platoon of squads, captain with a company of platoons, and so on up; a special forces squad (at least in the US Army, AFAIK) is often made up of various sergeants and led by a captain. The point being that rigid, hierarchal ranks aren't as important due to their smaller size, experience, and superior command & control, same as Space Marines.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Damnit, ghetto edit: And there are also Terminator Honors to consider. A Marine with them is in many respects half a rank up or more in the eyes of his peers.

[Lord Zentei]

The various captains of a given chapter also have ranks denoting responsibility in other fields, such as Master of the Marches and Master of the Fleets, etc. They will be assisted in this role by non-marine functionaries. Thus, there are more details for command than are shown on the basic chart.

Moreover, it is my understanding that the captains have different ranks of seniority: the captain of the First Company will have seniority over the captain of the Second who will have seniority over the others, down to the captain of the scout (10th) company. So, in the rare event that multiple companies are fielded, there is a clear chain of command. And as already stated, this would almost never include all the chapter, normally, it is the First Company and the Second through Fifth companies that are sent on missions as independant formations (the sixth through ninth are reserves and the tenth are the scout company).

Say, if a detachment included the First, Second and Fourth companies, the Captain of the First would act as Force Commander. if the force consisted of the Second and Third, the Captain of the Second would be Force Commander.

The Third Edition codex listed a Commander and a Force Commander in the HQ section instead of a Captain and Chapter Master -- one of the very few things it did better than the current iteration. Additionally, it included a "Leader", basically a one-wound hero (equal to a veteran sergeant with one extra attack), who would presumably be below a Captain in rank, but hold seniorty over his fellow sergeants in a similar fashion, though the lack of a clearly defined Leutenant is more preseing a concern, since full companies would be far more common than multi company formations. Instead, there is the Company Champion, the Apothecary, the Standard Bearer. Alas, they are all stuck in the command squad -- there was an suggestion posted to White Dwarf at one point that they could perhaps be made detachable in the manner of 3rd Edition Warlocks. Also, there are the Techmarines, one of which can at least command the heavy support section.

For reference, a company consists of:

• Command: (captain, chaplain, champion, apothecary, standard bearer).
• 6 Tactical squads.
• 2 Assault squads.
• 2 Heavy Support squads.

Now: if the list allowed for 1-3 Leaders as a single HQ choice (in the same way that the Lost and the Damned allowed for Aspiring Champions to be selected in this way -- 3rd edition allowed alas only for one to be taken, meaning they were never used, and thus fell by the wayside), you could conceivably divide the company into four sections, thus:

• Command squad.
• 1st section with 3 Tactical squads.
• 2nd section with 3 Tactical squads.
• 3rd section with 2 Assault squads.
• 4th section with 2 Devastator squads.

Command to take charge of one section, each Leader to take command of the other three, depending on the fighting style of the Captain. Techmarines (if any) to assist Devastators and/or attached tanks. Of course, that would eliminate the company Chaplain as a seperate choice, if you wanted to include him, but with the new rules, you can actually take him as a part of the Captain's squad.

[Lord Zentei]

Ugh, the above post is really in need of some good editing. Alas, a Ghetto will have to suffice. The rambling and poorly worded paragraph needs to be broken down thusly:

The Third Edition codex listed a Commander and a Force Commander in the HQ section instead of a Captain and Chapter Master -- one of the very few things it did better than the current iteration, IMHO.

The lack of a clearly defined Leutenant is more pressing a concern than the lack of a colonel, since full companies would be far more common than multi company formations, and seniority among captains solves the latter issue for the most part. Instead, there is the Company Champion, the Apothecary, the Standard Bearer. Alas, they are all stuck in the command squad -- there was an suggestion posted to White Dwarf at one point that they could perhaps be made detachable in the manner of 3rd Edition Warlocks. Also, there are the Techmarines, one of which can at least command the heavy support section in extremis.

There is, however a possible glimmer of light: in addition to including a Force Commander and a Commander, the 3rd edition Codex included a "Leader", basically a one-wound hero (equal to a veteran sergeant with one extra attack), who would presumably be below a Captain in rank, but hold seniorty over the sergeants. Pressumably, this was a sergeant who held seniority over his peers.

Anyway: before I notice other things that need to be written better, I'm off to catch some Zs.

[Aaron2]

While on paper it kinda sorta makes sense, it doesn't to me.

It reminds me of the command structure of the roman legion. Each Century had a centurian. The senior most centurian of each cohort ran the cohort (six centuries per cohort, 10 cohorts to a legion). Meanwhile, the senior most centurian of the first cohort ran the legion.

Every centurian knew his relative seniority among the others. Each centurian also had an "optio" [chosen] the he picked to be his second in command.

It worked fine for hundreds of years.


Aaron

[Teleros]

I think the problem is when you get a captain leading a tiny force - surely he's got the other 80 Marines in his company to worry about?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I think the problem is when you get a captain leading a tiny force - surely he's got the other 80 Marines in his company to worry about?

The captain would presumably appoint a suitable 2IC, and he can also generally rely upon the company's chaplain (who are no strangers to leading Marines, even if they aren't technically anywhere in the chain of command). Librarians can lead forces too, so a captain personally leading a small detachment isn't necessarily a problem.

[Stormbringer]

I think the problem is when you get a captain leading a tiny force - surely he's got the other 80 Marines in his company to worry about?

The captain would presumably appoint a suitable 2IC, and he can also generally rely upon the company's chaplain (who are no strangers to leading Marines, even if they aren't technically anywhere in the chain of command). Librarians can lead forces too, so a captain personally leading a small detachment isn't necessarily a problem.

And given the sheer experience, discipline, and fighting qualities of even the lowliest Space Marines they are not necessarily going to need an officer in the same way a more conventional military would.

[Lost Soal]

I think the problem is when you get a captain leading a tiny force - surely he's got the other 80 Marines in his company to worry about?

They addressed this in a White Dwarf during 2nd Edition. Due to the ability and training, any officer is capable of commanding a force of Marines. When You've got just a few squads sent to investigate a peculiarity a Sgt is quite capable of caommanding the force. Remember that most Sgt's probably have at least 100 yrs combat experience under their belt.

[Teleros]

I know, but you'd've thought good old Guilliman would've had the sense to add a Lt or two to each company...

[Stormbringer]

I know, but you'd've thought good old Guilliman would've had the sense to add a Lt or two to each company...

Not necessarily. The Codex Astares was written at the tail end of the Crusade and during the Horus Heresy. Until Guilliman actually jammed his reforms down everyone's throats, it's unlikely that the official Marine rank structure contemplated Marines operating for extended periods away from the main body.

[Adrian Laguna]

I know, but you'd've thought good old Guilliman would've had the sense to add a Lt or two to each company...

Why? The whole thread has made it clear that they don't need them.

[Agemegos]

It all depends on how much tactical flexibility you are going to ask of your unit.

Back in the days when you had hundreds of blokes in the same place doing the same thing you needed comparatively little command & control: a centurion (captain), an optio (lieutenant), and ten decurions (sergeants) sufficed for a Roman century of about eighty men.

When you have small units creeping around the battlefield and staying out of sight of enemy machine guns each one needs some sort of leader. And when you have several fireteams in different places doing different things a superior officer is doing well to keep track of three of them by himself or five if he has a staff.

A Roman legion of about 4,500 to 6,700 men was divided into cohorts which were divided into centuries which fought as units. That's about equivalent to a modern brigade in numbers, which is divided into battle groups (for tactical purposes), which are divided into company groups, which are divided into platoons, which are divided into sections, which are divided into fireteams (unit names vary from country to country: your country's unit designations may vary from those shown). Six layers instead of three, because the unit is spread ought over a wider area and consists of lots of small teams manoeuvring independently.

The C&C requirements of these space marines of yours ought to be dictated by their tactics, which in turn ought to be dictated by their weapons and armour.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Remember that for very organizationally primitive armies there is not much need for an extensive rank structure. Let's examine the Roman rank structure, for an example.

Enlisted:
(lowest to highest)
Tirones: Trainees, they held that title for their first six months of active-duty deployment before automatically being promoted to Legionaires.
Legionaire: The equivalent to a private.
File-closer: This is the equivalent of a corporal. The File-closer, a rank unheard of today, was extremely critical in close-order heavy infantry operations. His job was to make sure that a file of troops (a vertical column, one behind the other) did not lag or break up its depth. In short, he was at the rear of the file, and his job was to make sure that nobody lagged behind the formation. There was one file-closer per eight men and therefore the position is like a squad leader.
Tesserarius: One assigned to each Centurion as essentially the military policeman of that Centurion's unit. 69 Tesserarii in a Legion.
Optio: Seconds to the Centurions. The equivalent of a sergeant. 69 Optii in a Legion.
Centurion: Non-Commissioned officers, yet they still held control of whole centuries (companies) or maniples (two centuries) depending on how senior they were. They could, however, and did, command units up to Cohorts in size--full battalions of nearly 500 men in our terms. The seniormost Centurion in the Legion would be the commander of the First Cohort, which contained double-strength centuries and had 800 men or more instead of 500. 69 Centurions in a legion (59 Century commanders and 10 Cohort commanders).

Officers:
(reverse order)
Legatus Legionis -- Legion commander.
Tribunus Laticlavius -- Legion second.
Praefectus Castrorum -- Camp prefect and third in command.
Tribuni Angusticlavii -- Five tribunes comprised the junior officers. They'd typically have tactical control of two cohorts in battle or of the cavalry, and would fulfill administrative functions otherwise.


Special ranks:
(lowest to highest)
Aquilifer: Eagle-bearer. The man assigned to carry the Legionary Eagle.
Signifer: Standard bearer for the Centurial Signum, a spear shaft decorated with medallions and often topped with an open hand to signify the oath of loyalty taken by the soldiers. It was this banner that the men from each individual Centuria would rally around. Discentes signiferorum was the title of a Signifer intraining. One standard bearer per Century.
Cornicen: (Horn blower) One signaller attached to each Century, plus many others for Cohorts and other coordinating positions.
Imaginifer: In Imperial times, the man who carried the Legionary picture of the Emperor.

Adjunctant ranks:
Immunes: Specialists "Immune" from work around the camp or other heavy duty. Surgeons, engineers, surveyors, and architects, as well as craftsmen.
Discens: In training for an Immune position.

So as we can see, an entire formation of more than 5,000 men in the Roman Army had only eight commissioned officers. Everything else was handled by NCOs who'd risen up from the ranks. Above the rank of Legionary commander, everything was ad-hoc and based on Imperial appointment, no less.

I imagine the situation in the IOM is quite similar.

[Adrian Laguna]

Remember that for very organizationally primitive armies there is not much need for an extensive rank structure.

I imagine the situation in the IOM is quite similar.

In the case of the Imperial Guard it is sometimes similar, though it very much depends on the unit. There's everything from command and control structures very similar to that of the modern day, to those more approaching a Roman Legion's. As a rule, the Imperium relies more on NCO's at the lower levels than do modern militaries. Probably in large part because of the horrid attrition rates that Guard units go through. It's often better to leave command in the hands of those who have experience in not getting themselves and their men killed rather than waste resources training low level officers who'll likely not survive their first day of combat.

In the case of Space Marines they don't technically have commissioned officers at all. Every single man in the Chapter, up to and including the Chapter Master himself, started as a lowly grunt. Some may have gotten specialist training sometime after becoming a full Marine: Psykers become Librarians, those who show affinity for machines become Tech-Marines, the ones who are good at inspiring their fellows become Chaplains, etc.

The reason why traditional officers are not needed relates to the nature of what Space Marines are. They are elite specialist shock troops who have a level of training that would make a Spartan blanch, and a level of equipment that makes every one of them equivalent to a squad of normal infantry. The Marines who hold the rank of Sergeant really do a Lieutenant's job, and every individual Marine could easily do an NCO's job if they were assigned to a Guard unit. At the company level, the Captain can assign each squad broad objectives that one would normally assign to a company of normal troops. If two or more squads need to work closely together, the Sergeant who has the most seniority (usually determined by age) is in charge.

Basically, what would adding the rank of Lieutenant do? A reasonable arrangement might be an Lt for every two or three squads. The thing is, it's likely that all three of those squads might be doing something different from the other two, so really the Lt doesn't have anything to coordinate that the Captain couldn't do. Even if the are cooperating, his job can easily be done by one of the Sergeants.