Useful Trek Tech Poll

[Starglider]

There have been plenty of past threads pointing out how little use Trek transporters would be in combat. Even the 'telebombs' (transporter-delivered space mines, dropped into the path of enemy ships) from Star Fleet Battles almost certainly wouldn't work as Wars levels of ECM probably jam transporters over huge areas.

Of course if the cargo happens to contain materials that make the transporters go wonky, or has material that doesn't react well to being transported, you're boned.

Yep. Plus the main argument against cargo transporters being useful; unlike Trek the SW universe has an abundant supply of droid labour (and probably droid shuttles) to shift cargo around, which is a much more robust solution than transporters. I see no evidence that Wars humans would have an ethical issue with human transporters (that seems to just be groupthink on this site), but Wars ships can cover transporter ranges so quickly (and unlike Trek, they have an abundance of personal vehicles) again they're just not worth the complexity and risk for most applications. There may be a few exceptional cases where transporters are worthwhile, but no really compelling ones.

I suppose transporters might work as a last-ditch defence against boarders for smaller ships that don't carry stormtrooper contingents (beam the borders into space, ECM probably isn't an issue since we're using the ship's internal sensors and we don't care if whether they reassemble properly or at all). But if you're being boarded, you're probably already at the enemy's mercy: using fancy tech to continue resisting (assuming you even have a working reactor to power it) is just going to annoy the enemy commander into vaporising your ship. Again, a marginal application at best.

[Starglider]

There are indeed such devices in Star Wars, but Trelane's machines apparently fitted in a suitcase and could be operated by a child. And I'm pretty sure the world ships in question were more like miniature death stars than full blown planets. What's more, he 'made' the planet on his own.

Fails the 'could be convincingly conquered by the Empire' test, unless you have some brilliant plan for doing so. I expect they'd just remove themselves to another playground if the Empire became an annoyance - they always struck me as a slightly less advanced version of the Q.

[Darth Servo]

Rather human-like androids, it might be more a cosmetic feature, but I'd imagine you could find a buyer in the SW galaxy for something of that nature.

Already got them, and they look more humanoid than Data.

Come on. There are far BETTER pics of HRDs than that.

[OmegaGuy]

Iconian gateways?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Rather human-like androids, it might be more a cosmetic feature, but I'd imagine you could find a buyer in the SW galaxy for something of that nature.

Already got them, and they look more humanoid than Data.

Come on. There are far BETTER pics of HRDs than that.

There's a link to Guri, right on there...

[Darth Servo]

There's a link to Guri, right on there...

Yes but why take the round-about approach?

[The Computer Wizard]

I can think of only one thing, Industrial Transporters would help, if the Empire could find a way to modify it so they wouldn't be blocked by their own ship reactors.

dittos, oh, and Borg-Stormtroopers would be real cool, in my opinion.

[Karmic Knight]

Borg-Stormtroopers would be real cool, in my opinion.

WTF

Of course transporters would be good for the Empire. The spin-off's alone are worth it.

[Darth Servo]

Borg-Stormtroopers would be real cool, in my opinion.

WTF

Of course transporters would be good for the Empire. The spin-off's alone are worth it.

I've argued in the past that SW might already have transporters. How did Qui-gon get young Anakin's blood sample from Mos Espa to the Queen's ship in Phantom Menace?

[Karmic Knight]

Borg-Stormtroopers would be real cool, in my opinion.

WTF

Of course transporters would be good for the Empire. The spin-off's alone are worth it.

I've argued in the past that SW might already have transporters. How did Qui-gon get young Anakin's blood sample from Mos Espa to the Queen's ship in Phantom Menace?

The transporter line was just to carry the WTF. I have no idea.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I can think of only one thing, Industrial Transporters would help, if the Empire could find a way to modify it so they wouldn't be blocked by their own ship reactors.

dittos, oh, and Borg-Stormtroopers would be real cool, in my opinion.

So you mean slow and easy to hit? The Imperial Stormtroopers exhibit significantly more agility than a Borg by doing this thing we call, walking, or dare I say, running! And, oh yeah, taking cover... or just basic militaryt strategies whatsoever, anything done by the Borg, other than Transporters, is done better by the Empire.

Anyhow Darth Servo, as for your transporter hypothesis, would you care to explain why it'd be used for a blood sample and not mass shipping? It's possible thing he used to take the sample could only decode the sample into hard data, so he just had Obi-Wan use the ships computer to do an autosearch rather than manually look through it by himself. We already know transporter-like hoops exist in Star Wars anyhow, (The Magician in one of the comics had some hoops) but whether the Empire aquired it from him, I dunno.

[Jericho Kross]

Trasporters would be useful for cargo. The empire may improve on this to transport stuff [supplies ammo ect.] across the galaxy. Though i am just assuming but it could pay off in the end.

[FedRebel]

My two cents on Trek tech usefulness

Transporters: Novelty use only (e.g. magic tricks), the technology is too limited for adequate commercial or military use.

Holographics: Nothing revolutionary, perhaps the methods which the Feds implemented the technology could inspire businesses, or make holodecks household appliances.

Medical technology: dermal regenerators among other things could reduce the dependency on Bacta

Warp drive: Yes it's slow, but it's a 'cheap' time machine too! So if a critical battle is lost, just warp around a star and change history to benefit the Empire

Cloaking devices: Trek cloaks don't have the double blind issue, and the Scimitar demonstrates that the problem with weapons and shields has been resolved.

Genesis Device: fix it to get a terraforming made easy tool, or leave it the way it is because you can never have enough planet busters

[Ghost Rider]

My two cents on Trek tech usefulness

Transporters: Novelty use only (e.g. magic tricks), the technology is too limited for adequate commercial or military use.

Mass transporters would be useful if they could accomadate huge loads.

Holographics: Nothing revolutionary, perhaps the methods which the Feds implemented the technology could inspire businesses, or make holodecks household appliances.

The Empire has better holographic technology.

Medical technology: dermal regenerators among other things could reduce the dependency on Bacta

They do. Bacta is used mostly because of commercialization and a cartel...not because it is the only thing

Warp drive: Yes it's slow, but it's a 'cheap' time machine too! So if a critical battle is lost, just warp around a star and change history to benefit the Empire

To an alternate timeline. Kinda fucked whichever way you do it.

Cloaking devices: Trek cloaks don't have the double blind issue, and the Scimitar demonstrates that the problem with weapons and shields has been resolved.

Neither do SW. The only problem is price, and nothing demonstrates ST technology is going to be cheaper to install.

Genesis Device: fix it to get a terraforming made easy tool, or leave it the way it is because you can never have enough planet busters

Which proved to be a very poor terraforming tool

And they have things that wipe out Solar Systems or make a planets become food for weaponry.

[Starglider]

Cloaking devices: Trek cloaks don't have the double blind issue, and the Scimitar demonstrates that the problem with weapons and shields has been resolved.

Neither do SW. The only problem is price, and nothing demonstrates ST technology is going to be cheaper to install.

I'd forgotten about the Scimitar, that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors and (b) SW doesn't have something similar. As far as I know, there are two types of cloaking devices in Star Wars: stygium-based cloaks, which allow sensors to work but not weapons (as seen in various Wars games) and hibridium-based cloaks, which allow weapons but are 'double-blind' (this is the type Thrawn used). If there's a canon example of a SW cloak that doesn't inhibit sensors, weapons or shields I'd be interested to hear about it. I'd note though that Trek cloaks may have an ease of manufacturing advantage - stygium and hibridium are both pretty hard to get hold of, thus the rareness of (modern) SW cloaks.

Genesis Device: fix it to get a terraforming made easy tool, or leave it the way it is because you can never have enough planet busters

Which proved to be a very poor terraforming tool

And they have things that wipe out Solar Systems or make a planets become food for weaponry.

Genesis as a WMD still has a portability/concealability advantage, but that only counts against very strong defences and/or a lack of resources to build any of the big SW planet busters (assuming genesis can be built for less - presumably omitting the biosphere creation capability would save on cost and complexity, but protomatter may be rare/expensive/completely unavailable in the SW galaxy).

[Ghost Rider]

Cloaking devices: Trek cloaks don't have the double blind issue, and the Scimitar demonstrates that the problem with weapons and shields has been resolved.

Neither do SW. The only problem is price, and nothing demonstrates ST technology is going to be cheaper to install.

I'd forgotten about the Scimitar, that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors and (b) SW doesn't have something similar. As far as I know, there are two types of cloaking devices in Star Wars: stygium-based cloaks, which allow sensors to work but not weapons (as seen in various Wars games) and hibridium-based cloaks, which allow weapons but are 'double-blind' (this is the type Thrawn used). If there's a canon example of a SW cloak that doesn't inhibit sensors, weapons or shields I'd be interested to hear about it. I'd note though that Trek cloaks may have an ease of manufacturing advantage - stygium and hibridium are both pretty hard to get hold of, thus the rareness of (modern) SW cloaks.

So once again you go into "But it works in Trek, all they have to do modify certain things and it'll work in Wars."

Are you even going to try and finagle why Wars Cloaks have to stop sensors, or are you going to keep assuming that modified Trek tech will get over this hurdle, just for the sake of saying it?

Genesis Device: fix it to get a terraforming made easy tool, or leave it the way it is because you can never have enough planet busters

Which proved to be a very poor terraforming tool

And they have things that wipe out Solar Systems or make a planets become food for weaponry.

Genesis as a WMD still has a portability/concealability advantage, but that only counts against very strong defences and/or a lack of resources to build any of the big SW planet busters (assuming genesis can be built for less - presumably omitting the biosphere creation capability would save on cost and complexity, but protomatter may be rare/expensive/completely unavailable in the SW galaxy).

And it still lacks both the destructiveness of weapons that have been shown to do far more then beat a planet down.

The whole wanking to the Genesis device was shown on a Nebula and has some of the most bizzare and fucked up problems that have demonstrated none of it's supposed abilities that everyone tauts.

[Starglider]

I'd forgotten about the Scimitar, that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors and (b) SW doesn't have something similar.

So once again you go into "But it works in Trek, all they have to do modify certain things and it'll work in Wars."

What is this crap? If it works in Trek, it works, period - at least using the standard versus rules of 'everyone's tech works the way it does at home', which is a basic requirement for sanity. The only reason it wouldn't work in Wars is if the physical laws are different, in which case the question is pointless, as most likely nothing else futuristic from Trek is going to work either (most high tech devices are highly sensitive to any fundamental physics changes).

Are you even going to try and finagle why Wars Cloaks have to stop sensors, or are you going to keep assuming that modified Trek tech will get over this hurdle, just for the sake of saying it?

No, I'm going to say that Trek engineers figured out how to do it and Wars engineers didn't, because that's what we see in the canon. If you can't get your head around the concept that one galaxy full of engineers managed to discover a single useful thing that another galaxy of engineers didn't, that's your problem. If you want to postulate a complete and consistent set of physical laws for both universes, and show why that makes the Scimitar's cloak impossible in Wars, that will at least be interesting to read though still irrelevant to this particular question (though if I tried that, I bet you'd be bitching about how useless all the speculation is). Anything less and you're just whining.

And it still lacks both the destructiveness of weapons that have been shown to do far more then beat a planet down.

Guess you told the inventor of the bazooka 'this is useless, it isn't anywhere near as destructive as our heavy anti-tank guns'.

The whole wanking to the Genesis device was shown on a Nebula and has some of the most bizzare and fucked up problems that have demonstrated none of it's supposed abilities that everyone tauts.

Useful terraforming with the thing has always been wild optimism. I grant that the only evidence we have for it being able to destroy a planetary target is the scientist's simulation - they could've been over-optimistic (not hard to imagine given how over-optimistic they were about the teraforming part working) and the thing might fail to do much at all if fired at an existing planet. Sure the Klingons thought it would make a swell WMD, but (as someone here recently pointed out) the Soviets were genuinely scared about SDI despite that being mostly pipe dreams and propaganda.

[Ghost Rider]

I'd forgotten about the Scimitar, that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors and (b) SW doesn't have something similar.

So once again you go into "But it works in Trek, all they have to do modify certain things and it'll work in Wars."

What is this crap? If it works in Trek, it works, period - at least using the standard versus rules of 'everyone's tech works the way it does at home', which is a basic requirement for sanity. The only reason it wouldn't work in Wars is if the physical laws are different, in which case the question is pointless, as most likely nothing else futuristic from Trek is going to work either (most high tech devices are highly sensitive to any fundamental physics changes).

This particular bit of logic I love

"If unique tech works in Universe A, it'll work on Universe B technology, no need to explain power, size, or other such nonsense!"

So, like it's been said, demonstrate your proof to come to this conclusion. We are not talking about energy being shot at each other, we are talking about why should one technological discovery be completely the same when the other universe in question has shown far better abilities at detection of energy sources.

I know it's hard concept to figure out, but you should put the two together and at least try rather then spew red herrings.

No, I'm going to say that Trek engineers figured out how to do it and Wars engineers didn't, because that's what we see in the canon. If you can't get your head around the concept that one galaxy full of engineers managed to discover a single useful thing that another galaxy of engineers didn't, that's your problem. If you want to postulate a complete and consistent set of physical laws for both universes, and show why that makes the Scimitar's cloak impossible in Wars, that will at least be interesting to read though still irrelevant to this particular question (though if I tried that, I bet you'd be bitching about how useless all the speculation is). Anything less and you're just whining.

Ah, so Trek Tech is going to work with Wars tech again why?

I mean I may have been hasty last time but you're spewing out the exact sort of logic I see in retard creationists, with the same lines.

Come up with something better then "It'll work because I say so!!!". You've not shown the proof that because it works in Trek, it'll work in Wars, given we've seen magnitude of order greater power and sensor detection on one side versus the other.

Guess you told the inventor of the bazooka 'this is useless, it isn't anywhere near as destructive as our heavy anti-tank guns'.

Strawman fucker. Next time, try harder.

Useful terraforming with the thing has always been wild optimism. I grant that the only evidence we have for it being able to destroy a planetary target is the scientist's simulation - they could've been over-optimistic (not hard to imagine given how over-optimistic they were about the teraforming part working) and the thing might fail to do much at all if fired at an existing planet. Sure the Klingons thought it would make a swell WMD, but (as someone here recently pointed out) the Soviets were genuinely scared about SDI despite that being mostly pipe dreams and propaganda.

Given that one of the head designers LIED about it's usefulness says a lot more about the feasibilty of it then any simulation. The effects were far from being good, given what it worked on and what it did.

[Ghost Rider]

A small bit about tech and the versus.

In a versus, the technology is to work equally for both side in respective universe to not have battles of "Well Warp/Hyperspace/Stargates won't work here!!!!". This, however, does not extend that technological devices can be grabbed from either universe by the opposing party and ASSUMED to work perfectly.

The way one comes to the conclusion that universe A can use universe B toys is through whether or not can they meet the engineering and power requirements. This is why in a nutshell the Federation grabbing an ISD is useless. They cannot make any use if you gave the technical schematics of said ISD. They cannot reproduce any of the power sources and will have basic trouble on recreating the construction yards to engineer the product.

Thus going off about "ST cloaks are better!!!" without taking into account what SW has shown us in detection and then claiming it'll work the same way as it does in Trek, is the height of a wall of ignorance. The same problem you did last time, along with leaving no support to where you acquired your conclusions.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Also, I'm pretty sure it's been said that ship with a cloak retain mass, since that one chick didn't pass through the cloaked ship when she touched it, and it's a matter of fact that Navicomputers detect mass and gravity as a safety precautions against hyperdrive mishaps, if they can detect a planet whilst moving at a couple dozen million times c, I'd have a hard time understanding why they couldn't detect a cloak ship which retains mass whilst moving at only a couple thousand G's (Not that it isn't impressive to us, but I doubt it'd be the same in the Star Wars Universe, I'm sure there's a Streak Eagle contemporary in the Empires thousands of test purpose TIEs).

[Batman]

Also, I'm pretty sure it's been said that ship with a cloak retain mass, since that one chick didn't pass through the cloaked ship when she touched it, and it's a matter of fact that Navicomputers detect mass and gravity as a safety precautions against hyperdrive mishaps, if they can detect a planet whilst moving at a couple dozen million times c, I'd have a hard time understanding why they couldn't detect a cloak ship which retains mass whilst moving at only a couple thousand G's

If the ship is moving at a couple thousand Gs, using the cloak is already moderately pointless what with fucktons of highly energetic ions being thrust out of its rear end at considerable fractions of c. I doubt Wars sensors are going to overlook something like this.
As for the gravity detection, not only is there the tiniest bit of a mass differential between celestial bodies and even Executor-sized starships, but UNlike a cloaked starship a planet isn't exactly hard to find, so the ship under stardrive would know pretty exactly where to look for mass in the first place. Plus it's looking for mass along a very tightly defined trajectory, i.e. the ship's projected course. Who cares if there's a black hole 2.5 degrees to starboard of that? To detect a cloaked ship you have to sweep a pretty large volume of space.
Standard gravity detection sensors may simply not have the sensitivity to detect cloaked starships even if they had a clue where to start looking to begin with (and denying said clue is the whole point of a cloak).

[Ted C]

I don't think there's an question that transporters would be useful to the Empire.

Even if transporters are pretty inefficient, I still think it would take less time an energy to transport crew and/or cargo from a planet's surface than it would take to land a ship, load the cargo through doorways, and then boost ship and cargo back up into space.

Even if you never used them for military purposes and never transported sentient beings, they would still be useful for moving cargo alone.

[Starglider]

Mass transporters would be useful if they could accomadate huge loads.

We never see a Federation example of this, but we do see the Voth beam Voyager into and out of their city ship, so I'll allow it under the premise of this thread.

What is this crap? If it works in Trek, it works, period - at least using the standard versus rules of 'everyone's tech works the way it does at home', which is a basic requirement for sanity. The only reason it wouldn't work in Wars is if the physical laws are different, in which case the question is pointless, as most likely nothing else futuristic from Trek is going to work either (most high tech devices are highly sensitive to any fundamental physics changes).

This particular bit of logic I love

"If unique tech works in Universe A, it'll work on Universe B technology, no need to explain power, size, or other such nonsense!"

There's no 'work on Wars technology' issue. If the Empire can capture working examples, the blueprints and the Reman engineers who built the thing (which for the purposes of this thread, they can) they can build exact copies unless there's some unknown materials limitation (which we see no evidence for in the case of Trek cloaks).

So, like it's been said, demonstrate your proof to come to this conclusion. We are not talking about energy being shot at each other, we are talking about why should one technological discovery be completely the same when the other universe in question has shown far better abilities at detection of energy sources.

We just misunderstood each other's arguments here. I assumed you meant 'Trek cloak wouldn't work at all in the SW galaxy', which is a stupid versus assumption. You assumed I meant 'Trek cloak would work effectively against SW sensors', which is only a little less stupid. In fact in the previous post I said;

that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors

Yeah, I know, I should've said 'which it probably wouldn't'. On the plus side, Wars has no experience with penetrating Trek cloaks, so they won't have Trek-specific anti-cloak tech like the Dominion's anti-proton beams. On the minus side, Trek cloaks seem to require specific adjustment to defeat specific sensors (e.g. the Warbird's 'nullifier cores') and they won't have any experience with Wars sensor systems. The best argument against Trek cloaks working is that cloaks versus sensors in Trek seems to be an ongoing arms race, and there are numerous examples of the protagonists coming up with an incremental advance or improvisation that defeats enemy cloaks. Radically more advanced sensors are unlikely to have a problem with them (much as I hate to reference Enterprise, it did provide an example of this - the 31st century tech Daniels loaned Archer trivially penetrated the Suliban cloak). Wars cloaks, at least the double-blind Stygium ones, don't seem to show the same properties - the only option for detecting them is a CGT, period.

For a versus fight, my personal judgement would be that Trek cloaks work like moderately effective ECM; they make targetting Trek ships slightly harder for the Imperials but that's it. Trek gravitic sensors clearly aren't good enough to detect moving capships (otherwise Trek cloaks would be worthless), so Wars Stygium cloaks should be just as effective against Trek ships, though I'm not so sure about the other sorts.

Given that one of the head designers LIED about (the genesis device's) usefulness says a lot more about the feasibilty of it then any simulation. The effects were far from being good, given what it worked on and what it did.

David kept the fact that he used protomatter (which seemed to be banned in the Federation) secret when he shouldn't have. There's no indication that he knew it wouldn't work; in Trek 2 he seemed pretty convinced that it would work as designed ('what we're doing... could be perverted into a terrible weapon' etc). He was wrong of course.

Even if transporters are pretty inefficient, I still think it would take less time an energy to transport crew and/or cargo from a planet's surface than it would take to land a ship, load the cargo through doorways, and then boost ship and cargo back up into space.

Time, yes, though not that much because SW ships are so fast. I'm dubious about the energy claim - transporters seem to be power hogs, there have been numerous occasions in Trek where the transporters have been unavailable due to insufficient power. The main problems are still reliability and ease of jamming. Though if Wars science could ever reliably duplicate the conditions of that Riker-cloning freak accident, perfect instant replication of luxury goods (and for the less scrupulous, troops) would be extremely valuable. That's highly speculative though - there's no indication that this process could ever be made reliable.

[Starglider]

There's no 'work on Wars technology' issue.

In case it's not obvious, I read this as 'works when built with the SW technology base'. I deal with 'defeats SW sensors' below.

Trek gravitic sensors clearly aren't good enough to detect moving capships (otherwise Trek cloaks would be worthless), so Wars Stygium cloaks should be just as effective against Trek ships, though I'm not so sure about the other sorts.

Trek anti-cloak methods that work by detecting the interruption of a particle beam (i.e. the method they used against the romulan incursion) will probably still work; Wars cloaks presumably aren't transparent to absolutely everything otherwise cloaked ships would be immune to weapons fire (which they're not). Realistically this would require an extreme number of easily-destroyed sensor platforms, or cover an extremely small area. The only way I can rationalise the Federation 'tachyon detection grids' working is that the warp wake from the Romulan ships (which is presumably much bigger than the ship itself) interfere with the beams, as the chances of a cloaked ship interrupting a beam (for the kind of grid we saw in 'Redemption') are miniscule otherwise. Imperial ships are unlikely to be detectable by this method.

[Batman]

Mass transporters would be useful if they could accomadate huge loads.

We never see a Federation example of this, but we do see the Voth beam Voyager into and out of their city ship, so I'll allow it under the premise of this thread.

We se a dinky little 23rd century scout BOP's transporters move a few hundred tons on TVH, and TNG cargo transporters routinely move freights that would require a Lambda shuttle by volume if not mass so unless transporting them is more expensive than lifting them out of/into a gravity well (which I'm not qualified to judge) that'd already be worth it.

What is this crap? If it works in Trek, it works, period - at least using the standard versus rules of 'everyone's tech works the way it does at home', which is a basic requirement for sanity. The only reason it wouldn't work in Wars is if the physical laws are different, in which case the question is pointless, as most likely nothing else futuristic from Trek is going to work either (most high tech devices are highly sensitive to any fundamental physics changes).

This particular bit of logic I love
"If unique tech works in Universe A, it'll work on Universe B technology, no need to explain power, size, or other such nonsense!"

There's no 'work on Wars technology' issue. If the Empire can capture working examples, the blueprints and the Reman engineers who built the thing (which for the purposes of this thread, they can) they can build exact copies unless there's some unknown materials limitation (which we see no evidence for in the case of Trek cloaks).

...which will work when installed on exact copies of Trek ships, fed by exact copies of Trek power plants via exact copies of Trek power distribution systems and assuming the cloaked ship uses exact copies of Trek sensors, weapons, engines etc. That does NOT mean you can install a Trek cloak on a Wars ship and expect it to work exactly like it would on a Trek ship, or even at all.

So, like it's been said, demonstrate your proof to come to this conclusion. We are not talking about energy being shot at each other, we are talking about why should one technological discovery be completely the same when the other universe in question has shown far better abilities at detection of energy sources.

We just misunderstood each other's arguments here. I assumed you meant 'Trek cloak wouldn't work at all in the SW galaxy', which is a stupid versus assumption. You assumed I meant 'Trek cloak would work effectively against SW sensors', which is only a little less stupid. In fact in the previous post I said;

that level of cloaking technology would definitely be useful if (a) it works against SW sensors

Yeah, I know, I should've said 'which it probably wouldn't'. On the plus side, Wars has no experience with penetrating Trek cloaks, so they won't have Trek-specific anti-cloak tech like the Dominion's anti-proton beams.

I don't see why they'd need any-Trek cloaks are far from perfect. There's plenty of evidence for a cloaked ship being there that doesn't require you to penetrate the cloak at all-for early ones the cloak itself can give the presence away (TSFS), some particle emmissions apparently are not hidden by the cloak (TUC), drive emissions inevitably aren't (again, TUC), high Warp made cloaked TNG Romulans detectable, and that's just sensors the designers of the cloak KNEW about and could, within the limits of the available technology, compensate for. As you say yourself further down they don't know SHIT about a lot of Wars sensors (and likely don't have the technology to cope with them anyway).

SNIPPY FOR LENGTHRadically more advanced sensors are unlikely to have a problem with them (much as I hate to reference Enterprise, it did provide an example of this - the 31st century tech Daniels loaned Archer trivially penetrated the Suliban cloak).

And that's sensors with the same technology base, by and large.

Wars cloaks, at least the double-blind Stygium ones, don't seem to show the same properties - the only option for detecting them is a CGT, period.

Technically, they should show up on passives as black holes in the background. IF one happens to be looking in their direction and there should be something for the passives to detect, that is.

Given that one of the head designers LIED about (the genesis device's) usefulness says a lot more about the feasibilty of it then any simulation. The effects were far from being good, given what it worked on and what it did.

David kept the fact that he used protomatter (which seemed to be banned in the Federation) secret when he shouldn't have. There's no indication that he knew it wouldn't work;

So? He still lied about not using protomatter, if only by omission.

Even if transporters are pretty inefficient, I still think it would take less time an energy to transport crew and/or cargo from a planet's surface than it would take to land a ship, load the cargo through doorways, and then boost ship and cargo back up into space.

Time, yes, though not that much because SW ships are so fast. I'm dubious about the energy claim - transporters seem to be power hogs, there have been numerous occasions in Trek where the transporters have been unavailable due to insufficient power.

When working on trek power systems. Given that a single Acclamator MTL bolt would require the perfect anihilation of in excess of 9 tons of reactant with a Warp core I doubt that power generation would be a problem.

The main problems are still reliability and ease of jamming.

Reliability is not a problem under controlled circumstances, and neither is jamming. Assuming they're economically feasible there's nothing wrong with commercial cargo transporters.

Though if Wars science could ever reliably duplicate the conditions of that Riker-cloning freak accident, perfect instant replication of luxury goods (and for the less scrupulous, troops) would be extremely valuable.

Except the luxury goods would stop being luxurious unless it's hideously expensive/unreliable (same thing, really), and if it's no longer a luxury what's the point of indulging in (or selling) it?