I've Read "Look to Windward" (Spoilers)

[Big Orange]

OK I've nearly cleaned house with the M Banks books with only Inversions, Against a Dark Background and Feersum Endjinn left to go, since I've finished Look to Windward last night and I must say LtW is easily comparable to UoW and TPoG in terms of quality - the Masq' Hub was a pretty badass Culture Mind and I liked it when he put down the pompous Chelgrian Ziller, that was one of the best scenes in the book.

I also loved it at the end when that Special Circumstances “terminator” went on the rampage in a seafront castle which was used as a HQ by the Chelgrian conspirators; the self-righteous Visquile and the truly loathsome Eweil both really had it coming. The conspiracy to destroy the Masq’ Orbital still had many unanswered questions - we know that the Chelgrian’s Sublimed appeared to be the nominal leaders, but who were these “allies” that were represented by those sinister cone drones? What Culture level ship was transporting Quilan‘s ship to that Air Sphere at the edge of the galaxy? And why was the behemothaur that was used as a clandestine briefing site and meeting point for the conspirators end up a bloated carcass littered with dead/dying Chelgrian that belonged to Quilan's group?

[Melchior]

but who were these “allies” that were represented by those sinister cone drones?

It was strongly implied that the "allies" were a militaristic/radical Culture faction, a sort of internal "enemy" that wanted to promote certain reforms/changes in their society, IIRC.

[NecronLord]

I also loved it at the end when that Special Circumstances “terminator” went on the rampage in a seafront castle which was used as a HQ by the Chelgrian conspirators; the self-righteous Visquile and the truly loathsome Eweil both really had it coming.

I didn't. It's disturbing that the Culture now has to stoop to terror tactics.

[Big Orange]

It was strongly implied that the "allies" were a militaristic/radical Culture faction, a sort of internal "enemy" that wanted to promote certain reforms/changes in their society, IIRC.

It was also implied that the cone drones represented the unseen guardians of the Air Spheres (there was an urban legend of some species mysteriously vanishing after poking around in the Air Spheres too much), then there is the possibility of a Sublimed faction (aside from Chel's Sublimed) and of course the ten to twelve other Involved galactic superpowers that rival the Culture (such as the Homomda). And the cone drones themselves were perhaps not necessarily AIs (they could've been like Daleks).

I didn't. It's disturbing that the Culture now has to stoop to terror tactics.

I didn't love the morality of it but it was not as if those Chelgrian ring leaders were innocent; Visquile was planning the death of billions and Eweil was a psycho.

[NecronLord]

I didn't love the morality of it but it was not as if those Chelgrian ring leaders were innocent; Visquile was planning the death of billions and Eweil was a psycho.

The Culture, if the opening of... Use of Weapons, as I recall... is to believed, has in the past been much nicer to much worse people. A disturbing indicator that perhaps these dissidents in the Culture have the right idea, and it does need a kicking in its complacency.

[Melchior]

A disturbing indicator that perhaps these dissidents in the Culture have the right idea, and it does need a kicking in its complacency.

...? The dissidents tried to use worse methods and would probably have endorsed any E-Dust revenge killing spree... if they didn't mean to fail, obviously.

[NecronLord]

...? The dissidents tried to use worse methods and would probably have endorsed any E-Dust revenge killing spree... if they didn't mean to fail, obviously.

You're assuming that what they planned wasn't likely to avoid greater disaster - namely, stagnation and destruction of the entire Culture. Which is, after all, possible.

[Melchior]

You're assuming that what they planned wasn't likely to avoid greater disaster - namely, stagnation and destruction of the entire Culture. Which is, after all, possible.

Their plan wasn't good enough to trust them with such scenario modeling capabilities... even if it worked, it could have easily backfired.

[Big Orange]

You're assuming that what they planned wasn't likely to avoid greater disaster - namely, stagnation and destruction of the entire Culture. Which is, after all, possible.

Their plan wasn't good enough to trust them with such scenario modeling capabilities... even if it worked, it could have easily backfired.

While it makes sense that the attempted bombing of the Masq' Orbital could've been an inside job with malcontent Minds launching a misguided attempt to save the Culture from it's own decadence, but at the other hand I really like the idea that as overwhelmingly powerful as the Culture is, it is not necessarily the biggest kid on the galactic block and there are other factions that want to put it down a peg or two.

[NecronLord]

While it makes sense that the attempted bombing of the Masq' Orbital could've been an inside job with malcontent Minds launching a misguided attempt

You're presuming they were misguided. Banks isn't always that straight forwards; they might be firmly in the right.

to save the Culture from it's own decadence, but at the other hand I really like the idea that as overwhelmingly powerful as the Culture is,

In its universe... it isn't. Practically every book from CP to LtW makes direct references to races that could wipe their ass with the Culture, in this instance, the Airsphere builders.

[Big Orange]

You're presuming they were misguided. Banks isn't always that straight forwards; they might be firmly in the right.

Right about what? Killing billions of innocent people to make a point or cackhandedly shift opinion within the Culture? How would they be on the higher moral ground than than the Special Circumstances operatives who selectively bumped off a handful of Chelgrians? Anyway, whoever was responsible would perhaps be revealed in Banks upcoming Culture novel, Matter:

'The Culture is a far-future society of seemingly limitless resources and infinite technological possibilities. Yet the Culture is far from perfect, and it is still subject to brutal wars, political upheaval and intrusions from beyond the edges of known space. The new novel from Iain M. Banks, set in the universe of the Culture, will be a major international event in the science fiction field. As part the Iain M. Banks publishing program, Orbit will also be relaunching his classic Culture novels: "Consider Phlebas" and "The Player of Games".'

Link: http://www.orbitbooks.net

In its universe... it isn't. Practically every book from CP to LtW makes direct references to races that could wipe their ass with the Culture, in this instance, the Airsphere builders.

Yes and no, but the Sublimed seem to have relatively little affect on the material Universe despite moving onto a higher plane (not unlike the Ascended Ancients from SG-1) and you have to bear in mind some Culture indivduals (including Minds) have already Sublimed in recent centuries. There was speculation about the Air Spheres and whether they have Sublimed guardians who are similar to the Dra'Azon, but while they could've been behind the Chelgrian plot (if they exist) I prefer the idea of another Involved race that were really the Chelgrian's "allies" and they could be from outside the Milky Way.

[NecronLord]

Yes. And I'm tired of people talking about sublimed Cultureites as if they're part of the same Civilisation. They are not. If a sublimed race moved against the Culture, there's no evidence it could do anything but kiss its ass goodbye. Saying that they could do anything about it also presupposes that because the sublimed are part of the glowing-energy-squid cliche, they are all created equal, and that a race that sublimed a million years before the Culture's ancestors crawled out of slime would merely be the equals of some johnny-come-latelys whose oldest members would have sublimed a few millennia ago.

[Big Orange]

Yes. And I'm tired of people talking about sublimed Cultureites as if they're part of the same Civilisation. They are not. If a sublimed race moved against the Culture, there's no evidence it could do anything but kiss its ass goodbye. Saying that they could do anything about it also presupposes that because the sublimed are part of the glowing-energy-squid cliche, they are all created equal, and that a race that sublimed a million years before the Culture's ancestors crawled out of slime would merely be the equals of some johnny-come-latelys whose oldest members would have sublimed a few millennia ago.

Subliming seems to be a big question mark and as far it could be seen any Involved that Sublimes has essentially fallen off the map; if any Sublimed species could easily sweep in and roll up the Culture or the Homomda like a carpet why hasn't it happened yet? And the Chelgrian conspirators must've been given help from an Involved faction when the Chelgrian ship transporting Quilan was ferried about the Milky Way in a mystery ship with a very fast FTL drive and had his Soulkeeper upgraded with high-end Involved technology; the Air Sphere's being jealously defended by Sublimed guardians could be interpreted as a urban myth and the Culture had only one person living on a behemothaur (and that behemothaur did not mind the Culture guest).

[NecronLord]

if any Sublimed species could easily sweep in and roll up the Culture or the Homomda like a carpet why hasn't it happened yet?

Once again, I am reminded that you are in fact, a complete retard. It must be a constant struggle for you to even generate the neural signals necessary to type. How could you possibly read those books without noticing that the Culture and other surviving civilisations are very careful not to offend the Elder Races.

[Big Orange]

if any Sublimed species could easily sweep in and roll up the Culture or the Homomda like a carpet why hasn't it happened yet?

Once again, I am reminded that you are in fact, a complete retard. It must be a constant struggle for you to even generate the neural signals necessary to type. How could you possibly read those books without noticing that the Culture and other surviving civilisations are very careful not to offend the Elder Races.

I realise that the Culture were treading softly around a Dra'Azon Death World (the Idirans didn't and their team sent in mostly got massacred) and that the Culture are hesitant not to upset the ecological balance in a Air Sphere (the Chelgrians didn't and they too got massacred), but at the same time the Culture decides to stay in the material Universe since they assume that they would make much more of a difference in "improving" the Milky Way by not Subliming with only a token number of Culture beings doing the celestial equivalent of vanishing up their own backsides. And what's so retarded about assuming that another Involved faction were really the Chelgrian "allies"?

[NecronLord]

Read the bit I quoted IOW the bit I was responding to again, and it will make more sense.

[Big Orange]

I realise the Sublimed are very, very powerful in their own way but they mainly come across as insular and aloof cestial beings, rarely meddling in the affairs of lesser mortals (not unlike the Organians, Ascended Ancients or most of the Q Continuum). And destroying one Orbital Hub seems more like something an Involved faction would try to do, whether they are Culture insiders or another Involved faction equal (yet opposite) to the Culture...

Yes, I stolen the last line from the Time Wars YouTube clip...