Alcubierre drive problems, technicalities, and effects
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Alcubierre drive problems, technicalities, and effects
My sincere distaste for the lack of scale in SW (3 million clones my ass), and low consistency in 40k, coupled with my enjoyment of more "hard" sci-fi like that of Stross and Reynolds has led me to poke around at creating my own space opera background. However a cohesive galactic scale civilization requires FTL travel and communications. This is a clear conflict with the hardish scifi intentions. However I believe that could be resolved by using the Alcubierre drive, hence this thread and the questions. I was hoping more learned posters here could pipe up (Kurneko, I'm looking at you) and help with this.
1) Energy requirements. I know the design requires negative matter, though I am presuming that a galactic scale type 3 civilization can harvest or create it somewhere. How much, and how much mass-energy does this require is the question though. I've seen some claims of more mass-energy then the whole universe, some that say it can be cut down to a scant 3 solar masses, and some that put it down to a few milligrams. Which is right? And while I see some formulas in there, my math background is currently insufficient to figure out how to translate that into an Excell formula for me to manipulate on a spreadsheet.
2) Size and speed. This column talks about the varying energy requirements for various speeds and bubble sizes. But I simply do not understand its discussions about internal bubble volume and speed. How would one determine the size of the bubble needed and the resulting energy requirements?
3) Environmental impacts. I cannot imagine that the tidal forces from warping of space-time would be "good" for any object caught in them. How would I figure out the exact impats of being caught there? How fast would the strenght of the field drop off? Obviously the ship itself must be safe, but there is still the concern of say, nearby planets and comets. How far away from other objects would I need to be for saftey? Would the bubble itself act as a whipple shield, protecting against interstellar dust? What would happen when one released the warp fields, would it just disappear, or would you get some kind of gravity wave or "ripple" through space-time?
4) Acceleration. From what I understand of the original paper, the tidal forces of the bubble generate by using the drive cancel each other out even through acceleration, leaving the ship in a state of freefall. If one wee to use an additional engine system to accelerate, could one acceleerate the ships and simulate gravity then? Or would the bubble simply increase its own strength and cancle it out? Or would moving the ship outside the center of the bubble destroy it? Or do other assorted bad things?
5) Tachyonic energy. I've seen a few references to this in some of the papers I've read, some stating it is a problem, others dismissing the idea that the energy creating the bubble on the outside of it would be moving at tachyonic speeds. I honestly didn't understand it. Is it an actual problem, something that can be ignored, or something that could be engineered around?
6) Naked singularities. This paper and this one bring up the possibility of generating naked singularities by use of the drive. This is obviously a very bad thing. Can this be avoided, and if not what are the exact reprocussions?
7) Energy density. I've seen a couple of references to it being impossibly high. What scale are we talking about and couldit be overcome?
Steering. As I understandit, the warping of space-time should basically act the way a sci-fi shield or cloak should - nothing would get through it. This is why some suggest it be a prelaid course. But could it not also be controlled internally simply based off timing the creation and release of the warp, given that the orbital physics of the galaxy are already well known, and the velocity and time of the ship would be known?
9) Diametric Drive. How is this any different from the diametric drive, other then the diametric drive being for STL travel? Does the diametric drive suffer from the above problems or others?
10) Other objections. Anything else?
Thanks in advance.[/url]
1) Energy requirements. I know the design requires negative matter, though I am presuming that a galactic scale type 3 civilization can harvest or create it somewhere. How much, and how much mass-energy does this require is the question though. I've seen some claims of more mass-energy then the whole universe, some that say it can be cut down to a scant 3 solar masses, and some that put it down to a few milligrams. Which is right? And while I see some formulas in there, my math background is currently insufficient to figure out how to translate that into an Excell formula for me to manipulate on a spreadsheet.
2) Size and speed. This column talks about the varying energy requirements for various speeds and bubble sizes. But I simply do not understand its discussions about internal bubble volume and speed. How would one determine the size of the bubble needed and the resulting energy requirements?
3) Environmental impacts. I cannot imagine that the tidal forces from warping of space-time would be "good" for any object caught in them. How would I figure out the exact impats of being caught there? How fast would the strenght of the field drop off? Obviously the ship itself must be safe, but there is still the concern of say, nearby planets and comets. How far away from other objects would I need to be for saftey? Would the bubble itself act as a whipple shield, protecting against interstellar dust? What would happen when one released the warp fields, would it just disappear, or would you get some kind of gravity wave or "ripple" through space-time?
4) Acceleration. From what I understand of the original paper, the tidal forces of the bubble generate by using the drive cancel each other out even through acceleration, leaving the ship in a state of freefall. If one wee to use an additional engine system to accelerate, could one acceleerate the ships and simulate gravity then? Or would the bubble simply increase its own strength and cancle it out? Or would moving the ship outside the center of the bubble destroy it? Or do other assorted bad things?
5) Tachyonic energy. I've seen a few references to this in some of the papers I've read, some stating it is a problem, others dismissing the idea that the energy creating the bubble on the outside of it would be moving at tachyonic speeds. I honestly didn't understand it. Is it an actual problem, something that can be ignored, or something that could be engineered around?
6) Naked singularities. This paper and this one bring up the possibility of generating naked singularities by use of the drive. This is obviously a very bad thing. Can this be avoided, and if not what are the exact reprocussions?
7) Energy density. I've seen a couple of references to it being impossibly high. What scale are we talking about and couldit be overcome?
Steering. As I understandit, the warping of space-time should basically act the way a sci-fi shield or cloak should - nothing would get through it. This is why some suggest it be a prelaid course. But could it not also be controlled internally simply based off timing the creation and release of the warp, given that the orbital physics of the galaxy are already well known, and the velocity and time of the ship would be known?
9) Diametric Drive. How is this any different from the diametric drive, other then the diametric drive being for STL travel? Does the diametric drive suffer from the above problems or others?
10) Other objections. Anything else?
Thanks in advance.[/url]
Last edited by Ender on 2007-04-16 02:06am, edited 1 time in total.
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1) The varying requirements depend on the size of the buble generated.
As cited in the AV column you linked a 100 meter bubble requires more mass energy then the universe while a near Planck length sized bubble would only require grams or kilograms of negative mass energy.
2) The mass energy requirement increase is the square of the speed increase. The size of the Alcubierre metric determines the initial cost in mass energy that is why Van Den Broeck minimized the size of the metric.
The trick in the column you linked is you have an external Alcubierre metric with inside that another metric. The external metric is the drive, the internal one is static and is only used to warp space so as to allow a 100 meter sphere of normal space to exist in the sphere created by the external metric.
3) Depending on the size of the external bubble you can end up with a planet/sun buster. Can't say how far you need to stay away from other traffic or real estate. It does protect against impacts by reducing the impactors to fundamental particles and energy. the problem is that some of this will make it through the metric, describing it as high energy is an understatement, requiring strong radiation shielding.
If you stop moving the bubble can dissapate without effects (at least that is what I get from the metric).
7) Beyond string density.
have to read up on the rest.
As cited in the AV column you linked a 100 meter bubble requires more mass energy then the universe while a near Planck length sized bubble would only require grams or kilograms of negative mass energy.
2) The mass energy requirement increase is the square of the speed increase. The size of the Alcubierre metric determines the initial cost in mass energy that is why Van Den Broeck minimized the size of the metric.
The trick in the column you linked is you have an external Alcubierre metric with inside that another metric. The external metric is the drive, the internal one is static and is only used to warp space so as to allow a 100 meter sphere of normal space to exist in the sphere created by the external metric.
3) Depending on the size of the external bubble you can end up with a planet/sun buster. Can't say how far you need to stay away from other traffic or real estate. It does protect against impacts by reducing the impactors to fundamental particles and energy. the problem is that some of this will make it through the metric, describing it as high energy is an understatement, requiring strong radiation shielding.
If you stop moving the bubble can dissapate without effects (at least that is what I get from the metric).
7) Beyond string density.
have to read up on the rest.
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I suggest adopting a systematic physics explanation--a unified theory of everything--which allows for FTL travel. It does not need to be accurate, or even really plausible, it just needs to be internally consistent. One example of such a theory would be Heim Theory.
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I think you could just take FTL and communication as a given, even in hard sci-fi and just don't address the physics of it unless some interesting aspect of your design has an effect on the plot in some way. All the hard sci-fi readers understand the problem and give passes for it.
Or spend your efforts designing a quasi-stable interstellar civilization that doesn't require FTL. Something like Vernor Vinge's Qing Ho. Of course, you'd have to design a system that is stable for vast amounts of time complete with a culture to go with it, which is really hard to conceive off... but that's half the fun, right?
Or spend your efforts designing a quasi-stable interstellar civilization that doesn't require FTL. Something like Vernor Vinge's Qing Ho. Of course, you'd have to design a system that is stable for vast amounts of time complete with a culture to go with it, which is really hard to conceive off... but that's half the fun, right?
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Ender, we had this thread a few weeks ago that discussed FTL drive ideas, and might be of use to you. Do you have your sites set on Alcubierre warp drive, or would some of FTL (wormholes, for instance) do?
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Alcubierre still has causality-violation problems. If information can go FTL globally, than Relativity is wrong or causality doesn't exist.
Variable speed-of-light I think is the best proposal.
Variable speed-of-light I think is the best proposal.
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Re: Alcubierre drive problems, technicalities, and effects
It depends on the design, so the figures wary wildly. The Alcubierre-type warp drives have energy roughly proportional to surface area and inversely proportional to thickness. Van Den Broeck's solution, which you reference, is to simply have make it larger on the outside than on the inside, i.e., have a macroscopic internal volume but microscopic surface area. (No doubt that's the kind of "simply" that just might cause an engineer to go on a murder spree, but there you go.) If you have trouble seeing as to how this could possibly work, recall that we're dealing with a curved space. For example, if the space has a constant negative Gaussian curvature K = -1/k², then the surface area and volume of a sphere with radius r are: A = 4πk² sinh²(r/k), V = πk²[ k sinh(2r/k) - 2r ]; for positive constant curvature K = 1/k², which would be standard spherical geometry, just do a Weyl rotation in k (k-->ik) and divide by i. If you want an even simpler picture, the "bottle" comparison might work even better: now, the top edge of the bottle is the "surface area" and (the surface of) the bottle is the "internal volume".Ender wrote:1) Energy requirements. I know the design requires negative matter, though I am presuming that a galactic scale type 3 civilization can harvest or create it somewhere. How much, and how much mass-energy does this require is the question though. I've seen some claims of more mass-energy then the whole universe, some that say it can be cut down to a scant 3 solar masses, and some that put it down to a few milligrams. Which is right?
I digress to constant-curvature geometries because they are by far simpler to think about when illustrating a point such as this. The geometry of the warp bubble doesn't have constant curvature (obviously), but van den Broeck's paper already gives the relevant bound on the amount of negative energy. As an example from a more tame geometry, a Schwarzschild black hole of radius R has surface area 4πR², same as a Euclidean sphere, but its internal spatial volume is infinite (constant-t slices, however, a finite but not spacelike).
See equation (8) in van den Broeck's paper; think of his R parameter as how large the bubble is from the outside and Δ as its thickness, and you are free to choose those. The formula is quite easy to deal with even with something like Excel. The problem with making the parameters very small is that we have can't expect GTR to be valid on those scales, while large Δ is forbidden by quantum concerns. The inner transition region from the large internal volume to the Alcubierre metric is controlled by a somewhat arbitrary function "B". You can either carry out the calculation for different parameters (11-15), which is nigh-impossible without something like MATLAB or Mathematica, or just assume that it's within a few orders of magnitude as the Alcubierre region--this may actually be quite false, but since the choice of B affects the required amount of energy, you have a bit of leeway as far as handwaving is concerned. I'll try to calculate with some different values of α later if I have the time.Ender wrote:This column talks about the varying energy requirements for various speeds and bubble sizes. But I simply do not understand its discussions about internal bubble volume and speed. How would one determine the size of the bubble needed and the resulting energy requirements?
With a microscopic van den Broeck drive a bit smaller than a proton (as in his paper), it's not really an issue. The strength drops off enough to keep the warp almost entirely within the length dictated by the bubble thickness parameter, which is usually taken to be subatomic.Ender wrote:3) Environmental impacts. I cannot imagine that the tidal forces from warping of space-time would be "good" for any object caught in them. How would I figure out the exact impats of being caught there? How fast would the strenght of the field drop off?
If you mean linear acceleration, I think this should be possible, but I'd advise against it even if it is. Even if you accelerate within the bubble, the momentum will still be there upon your arrival. Simulate gravity by rotation instead. (Come to think of it, this is an interesting question to examine in more detail...)Ender wrote:4) Acceleration. From what I understand of the original paper, the tidal forces of the bubble generate by using the drive cancel each other out even through acceleration, leaving the ship in a state of freefall. If one wee to use an additional engine system to accelerate, could one acceleerate the ships and simulate gravity then?
If 'tachyonic energy' means that the drive violates the weak energy condition of GTR, that's quite true. What it means practically is that to make a superluminal warp drive one needs some sort of matter that is capable traveling faster than light already, but one can "creatively re-interpret" this by having the exotic matter in those problematic regions leak from the bubble, incidentally solving the "how to stop" problem as well.Ender wrote:5) Tachyonic energy. I've seen a few references to this in some of the papers I've read, some stating it is a problem, others dismissing the idea that the energy creating the bubble on the outside of it would be moving at tachyonic speeds. I honestly didn't understand it. Is it an actual problem, something that can be ignored, or something that could be engineered around?
I don't know.Ender wrote:6) Naked singularities. ...
It is very high. I'm too lazy to calculate this out for Alcubierre, but look for the T^{00} term in his paper. For van den Broeck's region, he calculates it in (11); (14) for a particular value given his assumed parameters. It's not really something that can be overcome if Δ is very small, as it must be if your universe pays at least some lip service to quantum mechanics.Ender wrote:7) Energy density. I've seen a couple of references to it being impossibly high. What scale are we talking about and couldit be overcome?
I doubt any warp design would be particularly steerable, besides possibly having a variable speed. However, if your bubble is the size of a proton, it's not really an issue--most of space is empty enough that chances of hitting something are minuscule.Ender wrote:8) Steering. As I understandit, the warping of space-time should basically act the way a sci-fi shield or cloak should - nothing would get through it. ... But could it not also be controlled internally simply based off timing the creation and release of the warp, given that the orbital physics of the galaxy are already well known, and the velocity and time of the ship would be known?
Well, subluminal warp bubbles don't suffer problems (5) or (6). As for "diametric drives", the description is too vague to infer much of anything. An interesting intepretation compatible with that statement is to abandon GTR altogether and go with a Brans-Dicke theory of gravitation instead, invoking this vague "scalar-field-modification" ability. I've no idea how it would work in practice, of course.Ender wrote:9) Diametric Drive. How is this any different from the diametric drive, other then the diametric drive being for STL travel? Does the diametric drive suffer from the above problems or others?
To those who brought up the idea of working by writer's fiat, the issue is the ripple effect. If I alter something to make my FTL drive work, I have to explain or take into account everything that will impact. I'd hope to use the A-drive because it has had the most work done on it (that I can find) and it does let one "pick 3" as some say for certain interprations of the universe. I can use those existing interprations to figure out the ripple effect, raher then blindly guessing.
Kuroneko, thank you, that is very helpful. I'll digest it and probably have some more later.
Kuroneko, thank you, that is very helpful. I'll digest it and probably have some more later.
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Didn't Saxton 'invent' some interesting safe-guards against that? I mean in there you could break causality via an FTL communicator but no information would be able to get back if you did that, information would not pass through and only static would occur on the recievers end.Illuminatus Primus wrote:Alcubierre still has causality-violation problems. If information can go FTL globally, than Relativity is wrong or causality doesn't exist.
Variable speed-of-light I think is the best proposal.
I am not sure how he did it with actual space travel though.
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The biggest problem with a drive system which works on this principle is the fact that anything powerful enough to distort space/time in such arbitrary ways should also be powerful enough to be a destabilizing tactical and strategic weapon in its own right.
If you're worried about the "ripple effect" of writer's fiat, declaring that they can make a working alcubierre warp drive is a form of writer's fiat too, and it has plenty of repercussions.
Of course, some authors don't mind making absurdly powerful sci-fi organizations, but I personally find such stories difficult to get into.
The Star Trek solution was to simply decide that the laws of physics in Star Trek permit low-energy devices to distort space-time, hence Zefram Cochrane's rickety jury-rigged ICBM ship with copper tubing for "plasma conduits" could do it with 21st century technology.
If you're worried about the "ripple effect" of writer's fiat, declaring that they can make a working alcubierre warp drive is a form of writer's fiat too, and it has plenty of repercussions.
Of course, some authors don't mind making absurdly powerful sci-fi organizations, but I personally find such stories difficult to get into.
The Star Trek solution was to simply decide that the laws of physics in Star Trek permit low-energy devices to distort space-time, hence Zefram Cochrane's rickety jury-rigged ICBM ship with copper tubing for "plasma conduits" could do it with 21st century technology.
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Yes, this is what I was looking for with the environmental impacts questions. If the drop off is really sharp, then it would be useless as a weapons, but depending on the strangth and range of the gradient it could be very effective.Darth Wong wrote:The biggest problem with a drive system which works on this principle is the fact that anything powerful enough to distort space/time in such arbitrary ways should also be powerful enough to be a destabilizing tactical and strategic weapon in its own right.
Yep, and that's what I'm trying to figure out.If you're worried about the "ripple effect" of writer's fiat, declaring that they can make a working alcubierre warp drive is a form of writer's fiat too, and it has plenty of repercussions.
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Even if the drop-off is really sharp, the engine's enormous energy requirements mean that it must have such vast power reserves that the ship must have correspondingly enormous power. So I hope you were planning on making one of those ultra-wanked super-scifi universes where planets get blown up for breakfast.Ender wrote:Yes, this is what I was looking for with the environmental impacts questions. If the drop off is really sharp, then it would be useless as a weapons, but depending on the strangth and range of the gradient it could be very effective.Darth Wong wrote:The biggest problem with a drive system which works on this principle is the fact that anything powerful enough to distort space/time in such arbitrary ways should also be powerful enough to be a destabilizing tactical and strategic weapon in its own right.
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Franchises like Star Wars, Firefly, and the original Star Trek didn't go into great detail about how their tech actually works, and neither should you. It doesn't help the story or the reader, and can make the fic look silly.
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Yeah - the key thing I think is consistency - come up with something and stick to it. As you said in your first post, you're interested in developing a space opera setting - to me that means the putting the story well before the science involved.
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You could handwave away the excessive energy problem by having the design use about the same amount of negative energy as positive energy, thus leaving the net energy be more manageable (however that's supposed to work). To further keep the drive technology from contaminating other areas, also have large amounts of negative energy be inseparable from the positive on anything above microscopic scale, which is plausible because we don't see vacuum decay into vast amounts of positive and negative energies. Vagueness will save the day; as Destructionator said, most readers won't be interested in that degree of detail anyway.
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Being fair to Firefly though the movie explained things so that all the travel is within one solar system so STL travel appears to be the norm and fits with the timeframes routinely given.Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Franchises like Star Wars, Firefly, and the original Star Trek didn't go into great detail about how their tech actually works, and neither should you. It doesn't help the story or the reader, and can make the fic look silly.
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"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven
My intention was the opposite actually, thank you for pointing that out. This is why I created this thread instead of using writer's fiat, so I could figure out things like this and shift it accordingly.Darth Wong wrote:Even if the drop-off is really sharp, the engine's enormous energy requirements mean that it must have such vast power reserves that the ship must have correspondingly enormous power. So I hope you were planning on making one of those ultra-wanked super-scifi universes where planets get blown up for breakfast.Ender wrote:Yes, this is what I was looking for with the environmental impacts questions. If the drop off is really sharp, then it would be useless as a weapons, but depending on the strangth and range of the gradient it could be very effective.Darth Wong wrote:The biggest problem with a drive system which works on this principle is the fact that anything powerful enough to distort space/time in such arbitrary ways should also be powerful enough to be a destabilizing tactical and strategic weapon in its own right.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
That solution could work, thanks. And vagueness was my intention, but I didn't want to do something stupid, like have relativistic railguns for weapons while my FTL drive invalidated relativity.Kuroneko wrote:You could handwave away the excessive energy problem by having the design use about the same amount of negative energy as positive energy, thus leaving the net energy be more manageable (however that's supposed to work). To further keep the drive technology from contaminating other areas, also have large amounts of negative energy be inseparable from the positive on anything above microscopic scale, which is plausible because we don't see vacuum decay into vast amounts of positive and negative energies. Vagueness will save the day; as Destructionator said, most readers won't be interested in that degree of detail anyway.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
Let's start with first the form of the Alcubierre drive described in the gr-qc/9906050v4 paper:
For the sci-fi application of this, get a manned, macroscopic ship of meters in length into a region of spacetime separate from the rest of the universe, somewhat analogous to a "pocket universe."
Do that without shredding the ship's structure and crew in the process, despite the neck connecting the bubble to regular spacetime being of subatomic diameter. Such would be a cool magic-like ability to practically manipulate reality like that, creating the bubble and putting a spaceship into such unharmed ... somehow doing so with real-world equipment and real-world materials.
Papers studying far-out ideas like the Alcubierre drive are beneficial just in case it leads to advancement of science. But the common sci-fi idea of the Alcubierre drive idea being workable with macroscopic, manned spaceships doesn't have good engineering plausibility.
A stellar magnitude of mass-energy is better than billions of times all the energy in the universe, but it is still a large quantity. Let's use the sun as an example.
The sun's power output is equivalent to a few million tons of matter being converted to energy per second, a very small fraction of its total mass cumulatively over the millions of billions of seconds in its multi-billion-year lifespan. That's nothing compared to what one is talking about here for the mass-energy equivalent of the sun's mass. The sun's total mass that is 1.99E30 kilograms has an energy equivalence of 1.8E47 joules (E = MC^2). For perspective, that's millions of times more than the energy released by the entire Milky Way galaxy in a hour, since its power output is on the order of 3E36 watts.
And the preceding is not to be positive energy but negative energy.
It is important to observe the significance of that much energy being involved in creating a structure, a bubble diameter, almost at the Planck scale.
The Planck scale corresponds to the Planck length of ~1.6E-35 meters, e.g. billions of quadrillions of times smaller than a single atom. One is talking about the astronomical amount of energy previously described while expecting that much "negative energy" to be somehow packed into a volume vastly tinier than a quark.
*********
Now, let's look at another form of the Alcubierre drive idea, attempting for less mass-energy:
Observe the similarity mentioned at the end between the ability to do this and the hypothetical ability to create new universes.
Anyway, in this example, a quantity of 0.06 grams of negative mass-energy (somehow created and concentrated) is to be involved with a volume a mere 3E-32 meters in radius, e.g. on the order of 1.1E-94 m^3 volume. Since 0.06 grams mass-energy equates to 5.4E12 joules, that makes the ratio of the negative mass-energy to the volume be on the order of 4.8E106 J/m^3.
The magnitude of 5 * 10^106 J/m^3 is a quantity that barely fits description. The energy density of the energy released by an exploding nuclear bomb can be on the order of 1E16 J/m^3 (plus or minus an order of magnitude or two), but that's nothing in comparison. This is so many quadrillions of quintillions of septdecillions of times greater concentration of energy, except it is to be negative energy...
*********
Incidentally, it wouldn't help plausibility much to try to have the negative mass-energy in the form of negative mass as opposed to pure negative energy.
Negative mass is a more far-out hypothetical substance than some readers may be aware. It is what happens if one looks at mathematical equations for the interactions of real-world matter and arbitrarily changes the sign of some quantities, while wondering if such could exist in the real-world. Here's one description:
Almost anything can be imagined, but "negative matter" as discussed previously is not exactly experimentally supported...
*********
For likely plausibility, even papers filled with formulas are only as accurate as the assumptions before the math. The papers fundamentally assume the ability to create ("set") what negative matter/energy densities they desire on the scale they desire. There's not an explanation how to do that, not remotely on the level of engineering analysis.
Research is always good, just in case such someday leads to progress.
However, the difference between these papers and a relatively plausible engineering concept is vast. It is a little like the difference between mathematically calculating that a hypothetical material with arbitrary 10^XY V/m dielectric strength would nominally make a capacitor storing energy far more energy per volume than a nuclear bomb, if one chooses the X and Y one wants, versus determining whether one can approach within orders of magnitude of that with real-world materials and complications. So far, the demonstrated plausibility of Alcubierre drives ranks up with hand-held planet-killer devices, as what orders of magnitude are involved matters a lot for plausibility.
The physical limits of equipment built from real-world molecular materials may apply even after eons of technological advancement.
Possibly, possibly the Alcubierre drive's energy densities like the negative energy to bubble exterior volume ratio of ~1E106 J/m^3 may be somehow obtainable in a non-apparent manner (e.g. something weird with mini black holes or the like) ... but the papers do not suggest that. They just show what is possible according to some physics assumptions, if one assumes that one can create more or less whatever negative energy density is desired, on a subatomic scale. They provide no answer to how one performs the space-time modification with equipment made of atoms so many orders of magnitude larger, nor to the other practical engineering questions.
In some ways, this reminds one of the unlikely femototech idea of the Orion's Arm website, but here one is talking about somehow creating, manipulating, and sustaining far-out space-time manipulation on a scale even more orders of magnitude smaller than a single proton.
But let's ignore that for the moment, and consider the negative energy.
In a way, "negative energy" can be created today. To utilize the Casimir effect, put two plates of matter close together with a narrow vacuum in between them, and some wavelengths of electromagnetic waves otherwise in regular vacuum are excluded. The region obtains what is called negative energy density because it has less energy density than regular vacuum, and regular vacuum is described as zero energy density by definition.
However, such isn't very applicable to the preceding, not for such astronomical energy density, not for working on a scale many orders of magnitude smaller than a proton. Real-world materials have atoms with spacing on the nanometer scale, able to create only a very weak effect with the smoothest, most-closely-spaced plates.
There is a different paper that does make an attempt to come up with methods to generate substantial negative energy, like some hypothetical laser techniques. It is actually about hypothetical wormholes rather than Alcubierre drives but still somewhat relevant. It is here. However, it still is awfully vague and doesn't suggest anything approaching the Alcubierre drive negative energy density requirements discussed previously.
There's another aspect to this, even in regard to the basic idea working in the first place. It is deviating vastly, vastly from physics actually directly explored with experimentation. If one looks at the history of science, a fundamental trend is the great body of past experimental evidence is never disproven. Sometimes a particular assumption of a theory not directly proven with experiments will turn out to be not quite universally right, but the body of experimental evidence remains true. Even Newton's laws had to be modified by relativity to a noticeable degree only when eventually tested at many orders of magnitude different speeds from the many tests that verified relationships like P = MV, KE = 0.5 M*V^2, and so on. However, for this, there are assumptions but not exactly any experiment directly providing favorable evidence.
*********
Considering the preceding, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in a story using the Alcubierre drive in particular since its plausibility is so miniscule.
If a story must have FTL, one might as well adopt a soft sci-fi approach to the technology, a "show, don't tell" approach, and avoid giving drive details unnecessarily, as implausible technobabble wouldn't help. Vagueness is better in that case.
*********
If instead the goal was fully hard sci-fi, that does require no FTL. However, STL doesn't have to be totally restrictive of a story.
One doesn't strictly need a galactic civilization. Unless one is writing about a large portion of the ~ 0.4 trillion star systems within a galaxy like the Milky Way, a mere billionth of a galaxy is enough star systems for almost any story.
For example, while sci-fi may depict "galactic" civilizations with their most major fleet battles involving anywhere from a handful of ships to a few thousand ships, that's really far less than the industrial potential of a single star system, let alone hundreds of billions of star systems. Probably the story doesn't require quintillions of ships in space battles and doesn't require a galactic civilization.
A single star system has on the order of around a trillion trillion tons (~ 1E27 kg) of usable material, trillions of times more than the historical metal production of earth.
There probably wouldn't be enough pages in a story to have description of events on more than dozens of star systems, at least certainly not the hundreds of billions of star systems in a galaxy.
A star cluster is enough for a vast civilization.
Some star clusters have much more density than earth's stellar neighborhood, such as on the order of a star per cubic light-year. Using that as a random illustration, that would be around 300 stars within a 4 light-year radius, not excessively far apart even with slower-than-light transport and no FTL. Such is more than enough for a vast interstellar society.
For perspective, in the Star Wars galaxy, the total number of worlds directly seen in the six movies is 13, counting large moons (Yavin IV and Endor). They may be described as a galactic civilization, but one doesn't see trillions of worlds, not that a story could show that many. They have a few million planets according to canon, but even a hundred or a thousand worlds is plenty for a story in comparison to the preceding 13 worlds depicted onscreen.
Even one star system like the solar system can naturally contain quite a number of large bodies, a number of worlds. Moons should sometimes be counted, such as Saturn's moon Titan of 5150-km diameter that is larger than the diameter of the planet Mercury, particularly when they can be utilized much, such as terraformed. In fact, the solar system contains 25 major bodies of 1000-km and greater diameter, not counting whatever number exists farther out in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud ... probably quite a high number if an estimated 35000+ bodies of 100-km and greater diameter out there is any guide.
The preceding was for natural bodies. Under some assumptions like a past civilization before the era of concern, much more is possible. For example, the trillion trillion tons of suitable material in and around a star system like the solar system is enough for artificial worlds with ground meters to tens of meters thick having a total area on the order of 10 to 100 quadrillion square kilometers, at ~ 10-100 tons/m^2.
Since under a million square kilometers is enough for a substantial artificial world, that would correspond to up to on the order of 10 to 100+ billion artificial worlds per star system.
So the 4-light-year-radius cluster of 300 star systems can contain effectively up to trillions of different worlds, up to many quintillions of population if such is desired.
Even aside from the possibilities in artificial worlds like the preceding, potentially tens of natural bodies of 1000+ km diameter per star system would alone correspond to thousands of worlds in the 4 light-year radius cluster.
With no FTL, travel time all the way across the star cluster is a few years, perhaps subjectively mostly equivalent to a few months with periodic hibernation, life extension, or the like. The net effect could be an interstellar society not vastly less cohesive than the British Empire of the 18th century, which took months to travel between some parts. STL travel between star systems can potentially sometimes be as little as months since some stars would be closer to each other than the average. An analogy is the Alpha Centauri star system where Alpha Centauri C is 0.2 light-years from the other two stars in the triple star system that are close together. Between worlds around a particular star in the cluster, transit time can be either hours, days, weeks, or months depending upon the destination and the speed of the transport ship.
Of course, the preceding is only one example out of many possibilities, but the general idea is that a lot is possible without unrealistic FTL, if the goal is fully hard sci-fi.
From here.C.V.D. Broeck wrote:By making use of the QI, Ford and Pfenning [3] were able to show that a warp drive with a macroscopically large bubble must contain an unphysically large amount of negative energy. This is because the QI restricts the bubble wall to be very thin, and for a macroscopic bubble the energy is roughly proportional to R^2/Δ, where R is a measure for the bubble radius and Δ for its wall thickness. It was shown that a bubble with a radius of 100 meters would require a total negative energy of at least
E =~ −6.2 × 10^62 v_s kg, (2)
which, for v_s =~ 1, is ten orders of magnitude bigger than the total positive mass of the entire visible Universe.
In [6], it was shown that this number is very much dependent on the details of the geometry. The total energy can be reduced dramatically by keeping the surface area of the warp bubble itself microscopically small, while at the same time expanding the spatial volume inside the bubble.
For the sci-fi application of this, get a manned, macroscopic ship of meters in length into a region of spacetime separate from the rest of the universe, somewhat analogous to a "pocket universe."
Do that without shredding the ship's structure and crew in the process, despite the neck connecting the bubble to regular spacetime being of subatomic diameter. Such would be a cool magic-like ability to practically manipulate reality like that, creating the bubble and putting a spaceship into such unharmed ... somehow doing so with real-world equipment and real-world materials.
Papers studying far-out ideas like the Alcubierre drive are beneficial just in case it leads to advancement of science. But the common sci-fi idea of the Alcubierre drive idea being workable with macroscopic, manned spaceships doesn't have good engineering plausibility.
From here.C.V.D. Broeck wrote:Using this scheme, the required total energy can be reduced to stellar magnitude, in such a way that the QI is satisfied.
A stellar magnitude of mass-energy is better than billions of times all the energy in the universe, but it is still a large quantity. Let's use the sun as an example.
The sun's power output is equivalent to a few million tons of matter being converted to energy per second, a very small fraction of its total mass cumulatively over the millions of billions of seconds in its multi-billion-year lifespan. That's nothing compared to what one is talking about here for the mass-energy equivalent of the sun's mass. The sun's total mass that is 1.99E30 kilograms has an energy equivalence of 1.8E47 joules (E = MC^2). For perspective, that's millions of times more than the energy released by the entire Milky Way galaxy in a hour, since its power output is on the order of 3E36 watts.
And the preceding is not to be positive energy but negative energy.
From here.C.V.D. Broeck wrote:On the other hand, the energy densities are still unreasonably large, and the spacetime has structure with sizes only a few orders of magnitude above the Planck scale.
It is important to observe the significance of that much energy being involved in creating a structure, a bubble diameter, almost at the Planck scale.
The Planck scale corresponds to the Planck length of ~1.6E-35 meters, e.g. billions of quadrillions of times smaller than a single atom. One is talking about the astronomical amount of energy previously described while expecting that much "negative energy" to be somehow packed into a volume vastly tinier than a quark.
*********
Now, let's look at another form of the Alcubierre drive idea, attempting for less mass-energy:
From here.The new metric of the Van Den Broeck/Alcubierre warp bubble is like a bulls-eye target with a center (Region 1) surrounded by three concentric rings (Regions 2-4).
[...]
Van Den Broeck makes the radius of Region 1 about 100 meters, and sets to 10^34, so that Region 4 is only about 3 x 10^-32 meters in radius. With such a small radius, if the warp bubble travels at 10 times the velocity of light the amount of negative mass-energy it would require is only about –0.06 grams. Even if it travels at 100 times the velocity of light, it would require is only about –56 kilograms of negative mass-energy.
[...]
First, although the interior of the warp bubble may be quite spacious, its exterior is only 3 x 10^-32 meters in radius, mush smaller than a proton and approaching the Planck length (1.62 x 10^-35 meters) in size. This is close enough to the minimum length-scale of the universe that such a size reduction is doubtful due to quantum effects.
[...]
Van Den Broeck’s warp drive is a large volume of flat space that is connected to normal space by a tiny "neck". It therefore resembles the more familiar general relativity topologies of wormholes or "baby universes" and perhaps has a similar behavior. This raises the issue of how the neck is prevented from pinching off altogether, isolating our space travelers in a new universe of their own rather than transporting them to a new part of the old one.
Observe the similarity mentioned at the end between the ability to do this and the hypothetical ability to create new universes.
Anyway, in this example, a quantity of 0.06 grams of negative mass-energy (somehow created and concentrated) is to be involved with a volume a mere 3E-32 meters in radius, e.g. on the order of 1.1E-94 m^3 volume. Since 0.06 grams mass-energy equates to 5.4E12 joules, that makes the ratio of the negative mass-energy to the volume be on the order of 4.8E106 J/m^3.
The magnitude of 5 * 10^106 J/m^3 is a quantity that barely fits description. The energy density of the energy released by an exploding nuclear bomb can be on the order of 1E16 J/m^3 (plus or minus an order of magnitude or two), but that's nothing in comparison. This is so many quadrillions of quintillions of septdecillions of times greater concentration of energy, except it is to be negative energy...
*********
Incidentally, it wouldn't help plausibility much to try to have the negative mass-energy in the form of negative mass as opposed to pure negative energy.
Negative mass is a more far-out hypothetical substance than some readers may be aware. It is what happens if one looks at mathematical equations for the interactions of real-world matter and arbitrarily changes the sign of some quantities, while wondering if such could exist in the real-world. Here's one description:
From here.Negative matter is a hypothetical form of matter whose active-gravitational, passive gravitational, inertial, and rest masses are oppisite in sign to normal, positive matter. Negative matter is not antimatter (which has a positive mass). If an object made of negative matter could be obtained and coupled by elastic, gravitational, or electromagnetic forces to an object containing an equal amount of positive matter, the interaction between the two objects would result in an unlimited amount of unidirectional acceleration of the combination without the requirement for an energy source or reaction mass. This would not violate the Newtonian laws or General relativity.
Almost anything can be imagined, but "negative matter" as discussed previously is not exactly experimentally supported...
*********
For likely plausibility, even papers filled with formulas are only as accurate as the assumptions before the math. The papers fundamentally assume the ability to create ("set") what negative matter/energy densities they desire on the scale they desire. There's not an explanation how to do that, not remotely on the level of engineering analysis.
Research is always good, just in case such someday leads to progress.
However, the difference between these papers and a relatively plausible engineering concept is vast. It is a little like the difference between mathematically calculating that a hypothetical material with arbitrary 10^XY V/m dielectric strength would nominally make a capacitor storing energy far more energy per volume than a nuclear bomb, if one chooses the X and Y one wants, versus determining whether one can approach within orders of magnitude of that with real-world materials and complications. So far, the demonstrated plausibility of Alcubierre drives ranks up with hand-held planet-killer devices, as what orders of magnitude are involved matters a lot for plausibility.
The physical limits of equipment built from real-world molecular materials may apply even after eons of technological advancement.
Possibly, possibly the Alcubierre drive's energy densities like the negative energy to bubble exterior volume ratio of ~1E106 J/m^3 may be somehow obtainable in a non-apparent manner (e.g. something weird with mini black holes or the like) ... but the papers do not suggest that. They just show what is possible according to some physics assumptions, if one assumes that one can create more or less whatever negative energy density is desired, on a subatomic scale. They provide no answer to how one performs the space-time modification with equipment made of atoms so many orders of magnitude larger, nor to the other practical engineering questions.
In some ways, this reminds one of the unlikely femototech idea of the Orion's Arm website, but here one is talking about somehow creating, manipulating, and sustaining far-out space-time manipulation on a scale even more orders of magnitude smaller than a single proton.
But let's ignore that for the moment, and consider the negative energy.
In a way, "negative energy" can be created today. To utilize the Casimir effect, put two plates of matter close together with a narrow vacuum in between them, and some wavelengths of electromagnetic waves otherwise in regular vacuum are excluded. The region obtains what is called negative energy density because it has less energy density than regular vacuum, and regular vacuum is described as zero energy density by definition.
However, such isn't very applicable to the preceding, not for such astronomical energy density, not for working on a scale many orders of magnitude smaller than a proton. Real-world materials have atoms with spacing on the nanometer scale, able to create only a very weak effect with the smoothest, most-closely-spaced plates.
There is a different paper that does make an attempt to come up with methods to generate substantial negative energy, like some hypothetical laser techniques. It is actually about hypothetical wormholes rather than Alcubierre drives but still somewhat relevant. It is here. However, it still is awfully vague and doesn't suggest anything approaching the Alcubierre drive negative energy density requirements discussed previously.
There's another aspect to this, even in regard to the basic idea working in the first place. It is deviating vastly, vastly from physics actually directly explored with experimentation. If one looks at the history of science, a fundamental trend is the great body of past experimental evidence is never disproven. Sometimes a particular assumption of a theory not directly proven with experiments will turn out to be not quite universally right, but the body of experimental evidence remains true. Even Newton's laws had to be modified by relativity to a noticeable degree only when eventually tested at many orders of magnitude different speeds from the many tests that verified relationships like P = MV, KE = 0.5 M*V^2, and so on. However, for this, there are assumptions but not exactly any experiment directly providing favorable evidence.
*********
Considering the preceding, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in a story using the Alcubierre drive in particular since its plausibility is so miniscule.
If a story must have FTL, one might as well adopt a soft sci-fi approach to the technology, a "show, don't tell" approach, and avoid giving drive details unnecessarily, as implausible technobabble wouldn't help. Vagueness is better in that case.
*********
If instead the goal was fully hard sci-fi, that does require no FTL. However, STL doesn't have to be totally restrictive of a story.
One doesn't strictly need a galactic civilization. Unless one is writing about a large portion of the ~ 0.4 trillion star systems within a galaxy like the Milky Way, a mere billionth of a galaxy is enough star systems for almost any story.
For example, while sci-fi may depict "galactic" civilizations with their most major fleet battles involving anywhere from a handful of ships to a few thousand ships, that's really far less than the industrial potential of a single star system, let alone hundreds of billions of star systems. Probably the story doesn't require quintillions of ships in space battles and doesn't require a galactic civilization.
A single star system has on the order of around a trillion trillion tons (~ 1E27 kg) of usable material, trillions of times more than the historical metal production of earth.
There probably wouldn't be enough pages in a story to have description of events on more than dozens of star systems, at least certainly not the hundreds of billions of star systems in a galaxy.
A star cluster is enough for a vast civilization.
Some star clusters have much more density than earth's stellar neighborhood, such as on the order of a star per cubic light-year. Using that as a random illustration, that would be around 300 stars within a 4 light-year radius, not excessively far apart even with slower-than-light transport and no FTL. Such is more than enough for a vast interstellar society.
For perspective, in the Star Wars galaxy, the total number of worlds directly seen in the six movies is 13, counting large moons (Yavin IV and Endor). They may be described as a galactic civilization, but one doesn't see trillions of worlds, not that a story could show that many. They have a few million planets according to canon, but even a hundred or a thousand worlds is plenty for a story in comparison to the preceding 13 worlds depicted onscreen.
Even one star system like the solar system can naturally contain quite a number of large bodies, a number of worlds. Moons should sometimes be counted, such as Saturn's moon Titan of 5150-km diameter that is larger than the diameter of the planet Mercury, particularly when they can be utilized much, such as terraformed. In fact, the solar system contains 25 major bodies of 1000-km and greater diameter, not counting whatever number exists farther out in the Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud ... probably quite a high number if an estimated 35000+ bodies of 100-km and greater diameter out there is any guide.
The preceding was for natural bodies. Under some assumptions like a past civilization before the era of concern, much more is possible. For example, the trillion trillion tons of suitable material in and around a star system like the solar system is enough for artificial worlds with ground meters to tens of meters thick having a total area on the order of 10 to 100 quadrillion square kilometers, at ~ 10-100 tons/m^2.
Since under a million square kilometers is enough for a substantial artificial world, that would correspond to up to on the order of 10 to 100+ billion artificial worlds per star system.
So the 4-light-year-radius cluster of 300 star systems can contain effectively up to trillions of different worlds, up to many quintillions of population if such is desired.
Even aside from the possibilities in artificial worlds like the preceding, potentially tens of natural bodies of 1000+ km diameter per star system would alone correspond to thousands of worlds in the 4 light-year radius cluster.
With no FTL, travel time all the way across the star cluster is a few years, perhaps subjectively mostly equivalent to a few months with periodic hibernation, life extension, or the like. The net effect could be an interstellar society not vastly less cohesive than the British Empire of the 18th century, which took months to travel between some parts. STL travel between star systems can potentially sometimes be as little as months since some stars would be closer to each other than the average. An analogy is the Alpha Centauri star system where Alpha Centauri C is 0.2 light-years from the other two stars in the triple star system that are close together. Between worlds around a particular star in the cluster, transit time can be either hours, days, weeks, or months depending upon the destination and the speed of the transport ship.
Of course, the preceding is only one example out of many possibilities, but the general idea is that a lot is possible without unrealistic FTL, if the goal is fully hard sci-fi.
- Nyrath
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Right on!Sikon wrote:One doesn't strictly need a galactic civilization. Unless one is writing about a large portion of the ~ 0.4 trillion star systems within a galaxy like the Milky Way, a mere billionth of a galaxy is enough star systems for almost any story.
For example, while sci-fi may depict "galactic" civilizations with their most major fleet battles involving anywhere from a handful of ships to a few thousand ships, that's really far less than the industrial potential of a single star system, let alone hundreds of billions of star systems. Probably the story doesn't require quintillions of ships in space battles and doesn't require a galactic civilization.
A single star system has on the order of around a trillion trillion tons (~ 1E27 kg) of usable material, trillions of times more than the historical metal production of earth.
There probably wouldn't be enough pages in a story to have description of events on more than dozens of star systems, at least certainly not the hundreds of billions of star systems in a galaxy.
A star cluster is enough for a vast civilization.
In Poul Anderson's Flandry of Terra series, one has a super colossal galactic empire, apparently so huge it make the Empire from Star Wars look like a sleepy one-horse town. Then you find out that Flandry's empire is only four hundred light years in diameter.
From "Hunters of the Sky Cave" by Poul Anderson
And your observations on the Alcubierre drive et al are bang-on as well.An interstellar domain can have no definite borders; stars are scattered too thinly, their types too intermingled. And there are too many of them. In very crude approximation, the Terrestrial Empire was a sphere of some 400 light-years diameter, centered on Sol, and contained an estimated four million stars. But of these less than half had even been visited. A bare 100,000 were directly concerned with the Imperium, a few multiples of that number might have some shadowy contact and owe a theoretical allegiance.
Consider a single planet; realize that it is a world, as big and varied and strange as this Terra ever was, with as many conflicting elements of race and language and culture among its natives; estimate how much government even one planet requires, and see how quickly a reign over many becomes impossibly huge.
Then consider, too, how small a percentage of stars are of any use to a given species (too hot, too cold, too turbulent, too many companions) and, of those, how few will have even one planet where that species is reasonably safe. The Empire becomes tenuous indeed.
And its inconceivable extent is still the merest speck in one outlying part of one spiral arm of one galaxy; among a hundred billion or more great suns, those known to any single world are the barest, tiniest handful.
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Say, Kuroneko. I've been following the exchanges in pre-prints between C. Fewster, T. Roman and L. Ford with S. Krasnikov, and P. Kuhfittig. This goes back to attacking designer space-times like wormholes and warp drives from the perspective of energy conditions and in the past decade constraints quantum inequalities place on solutions to EFEs. Do you have any idea where this discussion stands today?
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