Anakin executing Dooku

[Warsie]

1 - Did the republic have such laws ?

Yeah, especially considering the BDZ code command was developed in the CW and supposedly they were used on worlds with CIS armies deep underground, the Republic Terrorism with stone mites, the reaction of Alpha suggesting and believing it's okay to kill captured Jabiimite secessionists, to make them 'fear' the Republic (Anakin and Obi-Wan overrulled him,saying that's not nice and only teaches them to hate the Republic more)

[Darth Fanboy]

Mace's initial impression of Anakin after the landing of the Invisible Hand. From the novelization of RoTS:

Skywalker, by contrast, looked every bit the HoloNet hero he was supposed to be. [snip] ...but there was something new in his physicality: in the way he moved his head, perhaps, or the way the weight og Palpatine's arm on his shoulder seemed somehow to belong there...or something less definable. Some new ease, new confidence, an aura of inner power. Presence

Mace has definitely noticed that something about Anakin has changed, and is attempting to figure out what.

MAce then asks Anakin how he was ableto kill Dooku

Inexplicably, young Skywalker looked distinctly uncomfortable; that newly confident presence of his collapsed as suddenly as an overloaded deflector, and instead of meeting Mace's eyes his gaze flicked to Palpatine.

It is at this point Mace starts to get suspicious and starts looking at the Shatterpoints between Anakin and Palpatine in the Force. (Stover's Macewank being the one thing I dislike about his writing). This is followed by Mace saying...

I'm sure the Council will be very interested in your full report, Anakin," with just enough emphasis on full to get his point across.

From this it appears Anakin was debriefed, and it is very likely that he was not entirely truthful about the circumstances surrounding Dooku's death. The Council, having no proof, probably can't do anything about it. At this point my guess is that they only suspected Anakin of giving in to his anger and acting recklessly, but not the murder of a helpless opponent. The biggest thing to come out of any briefing would be the further suspicion of Palpatine's relationship with Anakin, IMHO.

[Eframepilot]

1 - Did the republic have such laws ?

In the novelization, Anakin points out to Palpatine that he is not under Palpatine's command when Palpatine tells him to leave Obi-Wan behind. Supposedly the Supreme Chancellor has no direct authority over the Jedi, who answer only to "the Senate" and their own consciences. So Anakin was under zero legal obligation to obey Palpatine's order.

I actually agree with Palpatine that the Jedi had a disturbing amount of power and zero checks or balances to it. The Jedi Council was fully prepared to remove Palpatine from office and even move to directly control the Senate until they could clean it up; if Palpatine hadn't already made plans for their complete destruction, they would have succeeded. On the other hand, the system did work for at least a thousand years, so it seems that the Jedi were indeed trustworthy enough to be granted that much power.

[Teleros]

That's the point - it worked fine until the Republic got a power-mad Sith Lord as Chancellor. They did their job fine until the Republic failed them in giving Palpatine so much power, at which point they began talking of a coup not to lord it over the Republic but to kick out Palpatine and the powers he'd gained.

[Darth Fanboy]

In the novelization, Anakin points out to Palpatine that he is not under Palpatine's command when Palpatine tells him to leave Obi-Wan behind. Supposedly the Supreme Chancellor has no direct authority over the Jedi, who answer only to "the Senate" and their own consciences. So Anakin was under zero legal obligation to obey Palpatine's order.

Correct, and it remained as such until the constiutional amendment was passed not long afterwards that placed the Jedi Order under the direct control of the Chancellor's office.


Also as an addendum to my previous post, in the ROTS noveization, during the battle between Mace and Palpatine, when Anakin is pleading with Mace not to kill Palpatine, Mace replies "If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you?" This implies that whatever Anakin told the Council, they bought it and thusly had no reason to believe that Anakin had killed a helpless Dooku.

[Chris OFarrell]

Just to make a point about all of this, if you remember, Windu and three other masters ATTEMPTED to arrest Palpatine as soon as they walked into his office. Palpatine at that point KILLED three *Jedi Masters* and clearly wasn't hesitating in trying his damn best to kill a forth.

Mace might have been able to stop him in the position he was in, but thats hardly something that can be maintained beyond the short term. The only way really to safely hold someone of Palpatines power would be to move a number of Ysalamari around him and I rather doubt there were any of those things on Courscant at that time.

Mace for the good of the Republic made a judgment call to kill Palpatine then and there. As Palpy in this scenario would have had no time to doctor all the records, the evidence would bear out what he did. I mean the Supreme Chancellor snarling "I AM THE SENATE!" would probably make even his most loyal supporters blink twice.

Anakin OTOH in moving against Mace to save Palpatine wasn't doing it because he thought Palpitine deserved a trial, he has no bloody compunction about slicing Duku's head off except a slight 'should I have done that' moment which immediately was forgotten by him. Skywalker was trying to get Mace to not kill Palpatine because he thought he needed him to save Padme. Nothing more or less.

[Civil War Man]

Just to make a point about all of this, if you remember, Windu and three other masters ATTEMPTED to arrest Palpatine as soon as they walked into his office. Palpatine at that point KILLED three *Jedi Masters* and clearly wasn't hesitating in trying his damn best to kill a forth.

Keep in mind that Anakin did not witness this, nor was there any indication that he noticed the bodies of the other Masters while running into Palpatine's office. The deaths of the other masters enter into a discussion about whether Mace Windu made the right choice, but shouldn't necessarily be used as a criticism of Anakin's actions since he may not have even been aware of their deaths, and as a result they could not have influenced his decision.

Mace for the good of the Republic made a judgment call to kill Palpatine then and there. As Palpy in this scenario would have had no time to doctor all the records, the evidence would bear out what he did. I mean the Supreme Chancellor snarling "I AM THE SENATE!" would probably make even his most loyal supporters blink twice.

Was Mace's decision best for the Jedi? Abso-fucking-lutely. Was it best for the Republic? Maybe. Palpatine's death would have destablized the Republic, particularly considering how pervasive his influence was to all levels of the government. The Jedi would have had to seize control of the government to keep it from falling apart, but even that would not have stopped some very serious public backlash against the Jedi unless the Order took punitive measures to stop it. Also, when news reached the still-living Separatist leaders, they may have tried to make a move. There's no chance in Hell that they would have conquered the Republic at that point, but a well-planned and executed major strike right on the heels of Palpatine's death would have only increased unrest and discontent in the Republic core. If the Republic comes out of all of those problems and is still the Republic, then Mace Windu's decision would have been best for the Republic in the long run. If not, then at best it's a wash, and at worst it causes the Republic to fracture.

Anakin OTOH in moving against Mace to save Palpatine wasn't doing it because he thought Palpitine deserved a trial, he has no bloody compunction about slicing Duku's head off except a slight 'should I have done that' moment which immediately was forgotten by him. Skywalker was trying to get Mace to not kill Palpatine because he thought he needed him to save Padme. Nothing more or less.

To be fair, Anakin's "should I have done that" moment was more consideration than Mace was willing to give Palpatine. Knowing what we know, Palpatine probably doesn't deserve such consideration, but Anakin did not have the luxury of knowing what we know. Consider for a moment that their positions had been reversed, that when Palpatine revealed himself as Sidious, Anakin chopped him into tiny pieces. Would Mace Windu have supported Anakin's decision, or would he have criticized him for acting impulsively? Mace Windu made no pretense towards disguising his intense dislike of Anakin. He was vocal about his opinion that Anakin could not be trusted with anything. He opposed making Anakin a Jedi. He opposed adding Anakin to the Council. He opposed promoting Anakin to Master. At every step, it seemed as if Mace Windu was there trying to inhibit Anakin's advancement, whether that was what he was actually trying to do or not.

Was Anakin selfish? Hell yes. But Mace certainly didn't help matters. Anakin harbored a lot of frankly quite understandable resentment towards Mace Windu in particular. Anakin's reasons for keeping Palpatine alive may have been self-serving, but Mace simply shrugging off any objections using the exact same language as the Sith Lord he was trying to kill would have come across as hypocritical to Anakin, who at least showed some hesitation towards killing a seemingly helpless opponent.

[Darth Servo]

Is a Sith Lord (even one with his hands cut off) every truly 'unarmed'?

Pun not intended.

[Aquatain]

I can see the sand people incident being kept secret more easily, but for him to tell the council that he killed Dooku in combat and them not sense he was lying?

After all the council has no reason to even know anything about an encounter with the sand people, they know he fought and killed Dooku....

I don't think The Force volunteers information in any way , somebody in the counsel had to actively search for lies in Anakins statements and they simply have no reason to distrust him.

Much like Vader standing right next to Leia in ANH and not sensing she was his daughter simply because he didn't search for it.

[Jim Raynor]

The Jedi's ability to use the Force was weakened during that time, and the Dark Side clouded everything. Palpatine managed to live on Coruscant and lie every day right in front of the Jedi. A powerful Force user like Anakin could probably keep the other Jedi from sensing his deception.

[NRS Guardian]

Just to make a point about all of this, if you remember, Windu and three other masters ATTEMPTED to arrest Palpatine as soon as they walked into his office. Palpatine at that point KILLED three *Jedi Masters* and clearly wasn't hesitating in trying his damn best to kill a forth.

Keep in mind that Anakin did not witness this, nor was there any indication that he noticed the bodies of the other Masters while running into Palpatine's office. The deaths of the other masters enter into a discussion about whether Mace Windu made the right choice, but shouldn't necessarily be used as a criticism of Anakin's actions since he may not have even been aware of their deaths, and as a result they could not have influenced his decision.

Anakin had to have known that Mace didn't come alone to face Palpy, the fact that it was just Windu and Palpy should have caused Anakin to at least wonder at the lack of other Jedi.

[Darth Fanboy]

Just to make a point about all of this, if you remember, Windu and three other masters ATTEMPTED to arrest Palpatine as soon as they walked into his office. Palpatine at that point KILLED three *Jedi Masters* and clearly wasn't hesitating in trying his damn best to kill a forth.

Easy for us to tell with outside knowledge, not so easy for those in the SW galaxy who would only have second hand information at best. Even then, MAce is still a Jedi Knight who was more than ready to kill Palpatine even after he had "surrendered." I agree Mace's decision was correct and prudent given his situation, but he is also a JEdi Knight and if he had struck down Palpatine in cold blood in the same way Anakin had killed Dooku, it would have been a hard time convincing others about the necessity. It could have seemed awfully convenient for the Jedi to kill the Chancellor on the grounds he was a Sith with little or no evidence to back up their claim prior to forcing the government into transition.

Mace for the good of the Republic made a judgment call to kill Palpatine then and there. As Palpy in this scenario would have had no time to doctor all the records, the evidence would bear out what he did. I mean the Supreme Chancellor snarling "I AM THE SENATE!" would probably make even his most loyal supporters blink twice.

According to the novelization, Palpatine did in fact have time to influence, if not outright alter the records. He created an audio-only recording of the events leading up to the battle, conveniently ending the transmission when it suited his purposes. The transcript complete with Palpatine's acting was then played for the Senate.

Anakin had to have known that Mace didn't come alone to face Palpy, the fact that it was just Windu and Palpy should have caused Anakin to at least wonder at the lack of other Jedi.

On his way to the battle, Anakin sees the other Jedi's lightsabers and when he enters the Chancellor's office he sees the bodies, notably the corpse of Kit Fisto.

[Civil War Man]

On his way to the battle, Anakin sees the other Jedi's lightsabers and when he enters the Chancellor's office he sees the bodies, notably the corpse of Kit Fisto.

Was that in the novellization? I don't remember seeing any of the other lightsabers or bodies in the movie.

If so, my previous statement should be altered. He probably should have been more on guard if he had seen them. But seeing as how he still was not there to witness the fight and the circumstances leading to it, it doesn't automatically invalidate the belief he likely held as to whether Mace Windu was being hypocritical. For all he knew, the four Masters waltzed into Palpatine's office with absolutely no intention of letting him leave there alive. Mace's eagerness to kill Palpatine certainly might have given Anakin this false impression.

[Darth Fanboy]

Was that in the novellization? I don't remember seeing any of the other lightsabers or bodies in the movie. If so, my previous statement should be altered. He probably should have been more on guard if he had seen them.

Yes, Anakin is on his way and he sees the color from all the lightsabers, and actually watches as the green sabers extinguish as Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto die.

But seeing as how he still was not there to witness the fight and the circumstances leading to it, it doesn't automatically invalidate the belief he likely held as to whether Mace Windu was being hypocritical. For all he knew, the four Masters waltzed into Palpatine's office with absolutely no intention of letting him leave there alive. Mace's eagerness to kill Palpatine certainly might have given Anakin this false impression.

I agree. The novel actually reinforces this. Palpatine plants the idea in Anakins head about how the Jedi are plotting to assassinate him and take over the Republic, just as in the film. In the book we can see lines of Palpatine's dialogue to Anakin (ex: "What will they do when they can no longer control you?" when Anakin is puzzled as to why the Council did not grant him mastery) as Anakin is conflicted between the Council and the Chancellor.

[Noble Ire]

Yes, Anakin is on his way and he sees the color from all the lightsabers, and actually watches as the green sabers extinguish as Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto die.

More than that, as he bursts into Palpatine's chambers, he actually sees Kit Fisto's decapitated head lying on the Supreme Chancellor's desk, grinning blankly at him. Of course, since the movie gives a different, tamer rendition of the Jedi Master's death, I'm not sure how canonical that particular moment is. Nonetheless, it is doubtless that Anakin sees the bodies on his way in.

[Death from the Sea]

Mace's initial impression of Anakin after the landing of the Invisible Hand. From the novelization of RoTS:

Skywalker, by contrast, looked every bit the HoloNet hero he was supposed to be. [snip] ...but there was something new in his physicality: in the way he moved his head, perhaps, or the way the weight og Palpatine's arm on his shoulder seemed somehow to belong there...or something less definable. Some new ease, new confidence, an aura of inner power. Presence

Mace has definitely noticed that something about Anakin has changed, and is attempting to figure out what.

MAce then asks Anakin how he was ableto kill Dooku

Inexplicably, young Skywalker looked distinctly uncomfortable; that newly confident presence of his collapsed as suddenly as an overloaded deflector, and instead of meeting Mace's eyes his gaze flicked to Palpatine.

It is at this point Mace starts to get suspicious and starts looking at the Shatterpoints between Anakin and Palpatine in the Force. (Stover's Macewank being the one thing I dislike about his writing). This is followed by Mace saying...

I'm sure the Council will be very interested in your full report, Anakin," with just enough emphasis on full to get his point across.

From this it appears Anakin was debriefed, and it is very likely that he was not entirely truthful about the circumstances surrounding Dooku's death. The Council, having no proof, probably can't do anything about it. At this point my guess is that they only suspected Anakin of giving in to his anger and acting recklessly, but not the murder of a helpless opponent. The biggest thing to come out of any briefing would be the further suspicion of Palpatine's relationship with Anakin, IMHO.

THANK YOU. you answered my question pretty well. He was debriefed, the council must have just not sensed the lie/deception. Although to those that are saying that the council has no reason to distrust him. Mace Windu distrusted Anakin anyway so he should have been looking closely.

Also there is a HUGE difference between Palpatine "unarmed" in the office when Windu decides to kill him and Dooku haveing his hands cut off and his saber in Anakins hand and SURRENDERING to Anakin. Once Dooku was disarmed and his hands were cut off, he made no further attempt to resist. Palpatine did. In fact doesn't Windu tell Palpatine that he is under arrest and will answer for his crimes or something like that after Palpatine loses his saber but before Palpatine throws the Force lightning.... isn't it after Palps throws the first round of force lightning that Windu decides to kill Palps, so that is waaaaaaaaaaaay more justifiable than Anakin killing Dooku...

[bz249]

I don't think The Force volunteers information in any way , somebody in the counsel had to actively search for lies in Anakins statements and they simply have no reason to distrust him.

Is it possible that there is a limit to 'sense the lies'. I mean in ANH Vader used rather conventional methods to get the information from Leia (supposedy a normal human). And he could not sense she lied about the Rebel base either (it seems to be a good idea to seach for lies at that moment)

[Aquatain]

I don't think The Force volunteers information in any way , somebody in the counsel had to actively search for lies in Anakins statements and they simply have no reason to distrust him.

Is it possible that there is a limit to 'sense the lies'. I mean in ANH Vader used rather conventional methods to get the information from Leia (supposedy a normal human). And he could not sense she lied about the Rebel base either (it seems to be a good idea to seach for lies at that moment)

Come to think of it maybe Jedi's are just as bad at sensing lies as the rest of us, thinking back i can't really state one example where a Jedi seemed to have a sixth sense concerning lies (though i should note i haven't read any EU books).

[Civil War Man]

Come to think of it maybe Jedi's are just as bad at sensing lies as the rest of us, thinking back i can't really state one example where a Jedi seemed to have a sixth sense concerning lies (though i should note i haven't read any EU books).

From what I can remember from the EU (it's been a while so I might be off base), trained Force sensitives have a leg up when trying to see if someone who's not Force sensitive is lying. However, particularly disciplined people can learn techniques that disrupt Jedi mind reading abilities, which would disrupt that ability.

Also, Force sensitives themselves while being able to detect lies could also be more adept at covering up their own. This is purely conjecture, but Leia's latent Force sensitivity may have contributed to a false negative during her interrogation, which Vader and Takin could have just as easily chalked up to her being her usual strong-willed self, and thus part of the former group of disciplined non-Force users.

[Darth Fanboy]

IIRC Jedi in the KoTOR era are able to be able to tell if someone is lying. Luke Skywalker and/or JAcen Solo do it as well later on I think also.

Factors at work in the Council being unable to see through any of Anakin's potential lies:

-Dark Side clouding the Force is still a factor.

-Anakin is a powerful Force user who is incredibly strong willed, Force users and even non force users with a strong will are known to be able to have at least some resistance to having their minds manipulated or read via the Force.

-The Jedi Council, although distrustful, may not have actually suspectd anything. The only other witness being Palpatine whose testimony was limited to praise of Anakin and how Anakin saved both the Chancellor and Obi Wan Kenobi.

-The Jedi may have higher priorities at the time than wondering about the exact circumstances of Dooku's death. Especially with their number depleted, Grievous on the loose, and Palpatine assuming more and more power.

[Connor MacLeod]

from what I remember "lie detection' isn't so much as telepathy as it is judgement of a living beings biological reactions and emotions, probably with some precog/fortelling thrown in. The former is pretty vague by itsefl, and the latter is definitely going to be curtailed in the Clone Wars era. Even with the ability to tell that SOMETHING is going on, that doesnt neccesarily mean they can discern the precise lie. I mean, come on, anakin is boastful and proud, but he's always been sort of volatile emotionally - the Jedi have to have noticed that (thats why they didn't want him in remember?) So noticing something via emotional changes in the force doesn't neccearily mean anything WRT Anakin. For all the Council knows, Anakin may be embarassed about some other aspect (IE not wanting to admit Dooku got the better of him, said or did something to humiliate him, etc.) Or maybe Anakin could have gotten lucky and doesnt want to admit it.

Moreover, recall that he's managed to keep his marriage with Padme a complete secret for over 3 years by now, with only Obi-Wan suspecting (largely because he knows them both pretty well, and they trust each otehr at that point.) If he kept the Tusken episode a secret, its probably not a surprise he could Suppress what he did to Dooku.

[Connor MacLeod]

With Regard to Mace killing Palpy: not a very comparable scene. jedi have traditionalyl shown that they have less concern with the laws of a government than with what they "perceive" (or are told by the Force, though it does seem the two get confused at times) as right. This is partly why it was easy for Palpatine to bring them down, by creating enough incidents where they had to flout the laws or go over them in order to preserve the Republic or do good, they built up a lot of resentment towards them. (Being isolated as they are, they probably never noticed.)

In the case of Windu, he KNOWs Palpatine has too much power over the Republic to allow to trial or dealt with in conventional ways. Palpy is Sith, he's gained too much power, and the Republic (and Jedi) are at risk if he is not eliminated quickly or is allowed to live. Intention plays a HUGE role in this - Mace is kiling Palpy out of neccessity, not out of a desire to or revenge or anger or anything like that (as far as I can remember, at least. IIRC the novel does a good job of portraying Mace's judgement of the whole "turning point" situation at this segment of the movie.)

Anakin, on the other hand, hates Dooku. (I believe this was covered in the novel, and in Labyrinth of Evil.) and he's got a desire to gain revenge on the man. It seems likely he didn't *NEED* to kill Dooku at that point, Dooku wasn't a threat, and Palpy was goading him. Just in the same way he goaded Luke in ROTJ, in fact (and tried to forcec Luke to kill his father and drive him to the Dark side.)

Besides, we know way back in TPM that when they have an identifiable Sith (ie Maul) they evidently don't bother trying to take them alive (presumably this has become tradition or law among the Jedi by that point), they only want to take them down. Knowing Palpatine is Sith probably puts him under this same heading. (Dooku, of course, was not known to be Sith until later, IIRC.)

[Lord Pounder]

The fact of the matter is Anakin is a slightly disturbed sociopath with a skewed perception of reality. From his point of view he didn't kill Dooku in cold blood. What he won't add is that he merely sought revenge, on Dooku for beating him and cutting his arm off, which Palpatine told him was a normal human reaction.

[NecronLord]

Not to mention the physical evidence. If we assume that the scene of their battle still existed (more or less) intact, there's this headless, handless corpse that used to be Dooku. Which cut came first? No matter which one did, the second one would be completely superfluous.

<Anakin> And... then... after I cut his hands off, Dooku started attacking me with telekinetic lightsaber combat.

[Warsie]

Is it possible that there is a limit to 'sense the lies'. I mean in ANH Vader used rather conventional methods to get the information from Leia (supposedy a normal human). And he could not sense she lied about the Rebel base either (it seems to be a good idea to seach for lies at that moment)

IIRC, there are 2 stories.

1. Vader drugs Leia with the droid to weaken her mind/get her high and he pretends to be her father (well, he is, I meant Bail Organa her adopted father) to tell her where the plans are. (ANH Radio Drsamatization)

2. After drugging her, he uses the interrogation droids to prick her, torture her, jab pressure spots, etc and gives up just before she loses will) ROTJ novelization, referenced)