Baal wrote:I never said Borg had AOE weapons. I pointed out that AOE weapons taking out Jedi show that their precog does not seem to apply to more general threats.
And how does it lead to that conclusion, when a more straightforward conclusion is that their precog does identify it but they just can't physically evade it?
I know the knights will slaughter by the hundreds. A Borg cube though is populated with thousands if not tens of thousands of Borg. I dont care how badass the Jedi are they will eventually get tired. Sheer numbers will eventually wear down the Jedi and one by one out of sheer exhaustion they will allow a borg to get too close and get injected. At that point they are toast. Sure Jedi TK might be able to remove the nanobots but an exhausted Jedi still slicing through dozens of Borg isnt going to be able to concentrate well enough to defeat the nanobots inside them while defending from borg a the same time.
You're forgetting how slowly the Borg move. It's not as if they're going to get exhausted fighting endless rushing waves of drones.
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Not to mention the fact that lightsabres are going to be pretty handy for making impromptu barriers and generally slowing the drones down even more. It might even be possible to get a decent breather if you can block them for long enough (granted, teleporters can screw this up).
Roga Danar managed to screw with the Enterprise transporters by pushing against the beam, what's stopping the Knights from doing the same thing with the Borg ones? Assuming they think of it.
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Baal wrote:I never said Borg had AOE weapons. I pointed out that AOE weapons taking out Jedi show that their precog does not seem to apply to more general threats.
And how does it lead to that conclusion, when a more straightforward conclusion is that their precog does identify it but they just can't physically evade it?
I know the knights will slaughter by the hundreds. A Borg cube though is populated with thousands if not tens of thousands of Borg. I dont care how badass the Jedi are they will eventually get tired. Sheer numbers will eventually wear down the Jedi and one by one out of sheer exhaustion they will allow a borg to get too close and get injected. At that point they are toast. Sure Jedi TK might be able to remove the nanobots but an exhausted Jedi still slicing through dozens of Borg isnt going to be able to concentrate well enough to defeat the nanobots inside them while defending from borg a the same time.
You're forgetting how slowly the Borg move. It's not as if they're going to get exhausted fighting endless rushing waves of drones.
No matter how slow it will still eventually after hours get tiring.
As for the AOE weapons. My assumtion is based on the fact that we have seen Jedi move fast enough and jump far enough to have gotten out of the area that the weapon appeared to cover. The fact that they didnt either means they didnt have warning of the attack or the Shroud of the Dark Side was so strong that it even limited the Jedi's ability to move quickly.
Baal wrote:No matter how slow it will still eventually after hours get tiring.
And there's three of them. If they really have to, then they can take watches in the 'night' to ensure that they don't get assimilated.
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I still think you are forgetting that these are Imperial Knights, not Jedi. Imperial Knights have all the power of a Jedi and none of the doubt in using that power. In The Courtship of Princess Leia we see untrained "force witches" using the Force to pop major arteries in the brain. An Imperial Knight can surely do the same. A Jedi doesn't need to carve up hundreds or thousands of Borg he can just pop their heads like a zit. Also I point out again on any Borg ship the vast majority of the Borg crew will be in Sleep mode, when they percieve a threat a few drones will wake up, when they are disabled a slightly, and i emphisise slightly, larger number will wake up. Coming at the Knights in waves will give the advantage to the Knights, one rests or acts as a rear guard while two fight. That way they won't get tired.
Lord Pounder wrote:I still think you are forgetting that these are Imperial Knights, not Jedi. Imperial Knights have all the power of a Jedi and none of the doubt in using that power.
Here we go. You realise that the Jedi have defeated the Sith and various Dark Jedi again and again and again and again for tens of thousands of years? Being immoral doesn't generally make you more powerful. Hidden Sith Teachings they'd been refining for a tousand years gave Dooku and Palpatine an advantage over the Jedi. Not any inherent superiority of the Dark Side.
In The Courtship of Princess Leia we see untrained "force witches" using the Force to pop major arteries in the brain. An Imperial Knight can surely do the same.
Because the witches of Dathimor are 'untrained' right. Not like they come from a long tradition that's ruled their planet and even supposedly resisted Palpatine.
A Jedi doesn't need to carve up hundreds or thousands of Borg he can just pop their heads like a zit.
Extended use of telekinesis is tiring too, remember.
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Lord Pounder wrote:I would actually argue that the Sith defeated the Sith. It was Vader that killed Palpatine.
And Lord Farfella and the jedi of his time wiped them out (Mind you, they did blast their own brains out on Ruusan when they had no hope) and the Jedi exterminated numerous - indeed, a near endless cavalcade of - dark side users down the years. And let's not forget that Luke kicked Vader's ass, barely trained, while still being (technically) a Jedi.
If simply having no qualms about killing made you a superior Jedi, you'd think that it would be the other way around, with every podunk dark Jedi like Xanatos being more than a match for a Jedi Knight in battle.
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I'm not saying a dark/gray jedi is more powerful. However due to a Lightsiders ethics s/he will be limited in the range of offence such as choaking, poping blood vessels and using lightning.
Given that they evidently have no issues with killing battledroids (Who are much more sympathetic than Borg drones) I can't see why a Jedi would hold off on the borg.
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Borg are still partially living beings. Many trapped against their will in the collective. Jedi ethics may prevent him/her attacking with their full ability. An Imperial Knight as I've read it will have no such ethical dilema. Remember the grief the NJO had just facing the Vong.
I don't remember the grief they had facing the Vong. I stopped buying the Star Wars books before that. However, I would guess that any Jedi with an ounce of sense (which admittedly, they generally lack) would decide that killing the drones is the best they can hope for in this situation.
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Wasn't that true of the Republic (Way to undermine the films... "We've replaced Palpatine. With a weak ass government that sucks tremendous quanties of shit!) too, and the Remnant for that matter?
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"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
Yeah both goverments where weak. Mostly as a plot device than anything. But the new Empire which the Imperial Knights serve seem to be a mixture of the good parts of both rebel and imperial factions. All the ruthlessness of the old Empire, with the vast array of kick assery of some pet Jedi.
Lord Pounder wrote:I still think you are forgetting that these are Imperial Knights, not Jedi. Imperial Knights have all the power of a Jedi and none of the doubt in using that power. In The Courtship of Princess Leia we see untrained "force witches" using the Force to pop major arteries in the brain. An Imperial Knight can surely do the same. A Jedi doesn't need to carve up hundreds or thousands of Borg he can just pop their heads like a zit. Also I point out again on any Borg ship the vast majority of the Borg crew will be in Sleep mode, when they percieve a threat a few drones will wake up, when they are disabled a slightly, and i emphisise slightly, larger number will wake up. Coming at the Knights in waves will give the advantage to the Knights, one rests or acts as a rear guard while two fight. That way they won't get tired.
None of that matters. According to SW lore you do those things no matter what your reasoning is and you drag yourself into the Dark Side.
SilverWingedSeraph wrote:I find myself wondering who voted for option #3
General Schatten wrote:Addendum: I would really like to see whoever voted 'all knighs assimulated/borg lose a few drones' come and defend that notion...
Sorry, I actually missed this until re reading through just now. That vote was me. I do actually think the Borg would be able to subdue and deal with these intruders, if they used even minor intelligence and tactics they've been observed to use with their existent arsenal.
However, that said, I know better than to argue for the Trek side here so don't expect me to do so. I'm merely satisfying your curiousity on that specific vote issue.
Bubble Boy wrote:Sorry, I actually missed this until re reading through just now. That vote was me. I do actually think the Borg would be able to subdue and deal with these intruders, if they used even minor intelligence and tactics they've been observed to use with their existent arsenal.
Tactics like what? Trying to Zerg Rush with something you can easily walk away from? So far the grandest tactic I've ever seen from the Borg was a strategic retreat.
Bubble Bollocks please explain how the Borg are gonna subdue 3 Force Users? This is Stardestroyet.net kid you don't come off with shit and refuse to explain why. And claiming we wouldn't listen because we're all rabid warsies makes you sound like a dick who doesn't know what he's talking about. SDNet isn't anti-trek it's anti-dumb.
Damn right, bubble boy. Explain your goddamn reasoning. Jedi have been known to fight heavily outnumbered against fucking droids and win with minimal effort. Borg are fucking chump change compared to droids in Star Wars. They just fucking shamble along slowly like bloody cybernetic zombies, and try to jab you with nanoprobes.
Nothing a lightsaber and a vast array of psychokinetic abilities couldn't handle with ease, no matter what the numbers were on either side, really. Sure, the Borg could theoretically do many things to stop the intruding Jedi, except they have been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN to not do these things, even when it would save their worthless cybernetic asses.
Jedi win, Borg lose, because the Borg are fucking retarded.
SilverWingedSeraph wrote:Sure, the Borg could theoretically do many things to stop the intruding Jedi, except they have been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN to not do these things, even when it would save their worthless cybernetic asses.
Just for claritys sake, could you list some of the "over and over again" instances where the Borg didn't take advantage of potential avenues for dealing with hostiles?
I'm not saying this isn't the case, but I'm curious to know which examples you're using to set this precident.
I agree with the general sentiment here; in theory the Borg should be able to win, by evacuating the air, or beaming the knights into space, or deploying lots of forcefields, or improvising energy weapons, or blowing up some of their own ship (by overloading conduits or whatever). But they won't, because they never do any of these things when under attack in Trek, and they generally behave like idiot savants that are good at assimilating (and maybe developing) tech but very little else. The average modern FPS game has more intelligent enemies than you'd find in a Borg ship. I voted for 'one knight lost' simply because they might lose one to a lucky hit/surprise attack before they realise what they're dealing with: if the knights have any experience with or prior intel on the borg it's a 'take the sphere with no casualties' result.
That said...
Cpl Kendall wrote:Roga Danar managed to screw with the Enterprise transporters by pushing against the beam, what's stopping the Knights from doing the same thing with the Borg ones? Assuming they think of it.
...this is a weak argument. The NX-01 transporter was an early prototype with (supposedly) limited capabilities. We never see this problem with later transporters, despite numerous instances of people being transported against their will and/or while in motion. It's possible that the Force would give the Imperial Knights the innate ability to resist despite none of the (non-Godlike) ST races being able to, but that's unwarranted and unnecessary speculation - the Borg have never been seen to use their transporters in this way, and if the knights have any prior intel on transporters they'll probably be carrying jamming devices.
