So called "Rules of Warfare"

[Sea Skimmer]

JHP will transfer all of its kinetic energy/momentum into the target whithout penetrating overly much, dropping/incapacitating it for the time being while not automatically doing sever organ damage, meaning the bullet does its job (taking out the target ) WITHOUT necessarily killing or doing irreparable harm in the process.

Umm, no. A rifle caliber hollowpoint will most likely penetrate all the way through a human body, and even pistol calibers will strike very deeply. Any expanding bullet will near certainly destroy organ it hits. The permanent wound cavity is especially large, that represents tissue that’s totally destroyed. Being fully penetrated by a FMJ bullet is far more survivable.

The reason police use JHP wherever the are legally entitled to is that JHP is MORE likely to drop a target with the minimum number of hits while at the same time being LESS likely to kill/irreversibly damage it.

That is just utterly wrong. Police use expanding ammunition specifically because of the massive damage the bullets inflict. They are far more likely to kill or cause irreversible damage. I don’t know what gave you the idea that a JHP won’t pierce deeply enough to wreck organs, it’s not like that requires any great deal of penetration to begin with.

The fact is it’s already not hard to inflict a lethal wound with ANY bullet of any caliber. A certain person in Virginia just showed how lethal a 9mm and .22cal pistol can be, and both calibers are considered relatively weak. What is hard is causing so much damage the person cannot fight back for even a minute. That’s when JHP comes in. The police, who are almost always very close to the person they are shooting need to care about this more then a solider. If they don’t want to kill a person, they have beanbag rounds, though a hit on the neck with one of those is still fatal.

[Batman]

JHP will transfer all of its kinetic energy/momentum into the target whithout penetrating overly much, dropping/incapacitating it for the time being while not automatically doing sever organ damage, meaning the bullet does its job (taking out the target ) WITHOUT necessarily killing or doing irreparable harm in the process.

I am sorry, but I ask you to prove the highlighted parts.
From what I know, upon entrance, the JHP expands and causes sever internal damage.

Exactly. Upon entry. Which means it's less likely to penetrate to the point where it will cause severe internal damage.

Even worse, those bullets tend to fall apart inside the victim, while the fragments go sideways and basically turn your internal organs into a bloody mess!

Says who? Hollowpoints mushroom and that's it. You may be thinking about prefragmented bullets.

Can you please specify your sources?

Just about everything there is about to find about firearms, as well as simple physics?

[Drooling Iguana]

In case you didn't know, the goal in a war is to take over/destroy strategic points, not to kill as many enemy soldiers as possible!

Umm, minor nitpick, but that's not entirely true. The goal of war is to render the other party incapable of continuing to fight (for the most part, there are certain exceptions). Killing as many of their soldiers as possible is most direct way to do this.

Filling up their hospitals does it just as well, if not better. A dead soldier is just another corpse for his/her army to cart away for burial. A wounded soldier, on the other hand, is removed from combat just as much as a dead one would be, and is also going to be a constant drain on the enemy's resources for some time to come. There's a reason why land mines are built to maim rather than kill.

[Batman]

Well, looks like I was wrong about the wounding capacity of JHP vs FMJ (I was mainly thinking pistol rounds but SS is,unsurprisingly, correct, even pistol JHP penetrates far deeper than I remembered).
Which, against unarmoured targets, nevertheless still makes it preferable to FMJ because you can drop the target more quickly, for exactly the reasons SS pointed out. So much for no added military advantage.

[NomAnor15]

Umm, minor nitpick, but that's not entirely true. The goal of war is to render the other party incapable of continuing to fight (for the most part, there are certain exceptions). Killing as many of their soldiers as possible is most direct way to do this.

Filling up their hospitals does it just as well, if not better. A dead soldier is just another corpse for his/her army to cart away for burial. A wounded soldier, on the other hand, is removed from combat just as much as a dead one would be, and is also going to be a constant drain on the enemy's resources for some time to come. There's a reason why land mines are built to maim rather than kill.

True, but a dead soldier is guaranteed to never be back in combat. Certainly most wounds will preclude that, but not all. Either way, you are correct.

[MagnusTheReD]

Exactly. Upon entry. Which means it's less likely to penetrate to the point where it will cause severe internal damage.

How much does a bullet have to travel to reach vital organs? Five, six centimeters? You wanna tell me a bullet of any kind might not go as deep as two five centimeters?

The difference between the FMJ and the JHP is that a FMJ will not kill you unless it hits some vital organs, while the JHP is likely to kill you even if it doesn't directly hit any vital organs since it causes massive damage to the tissue around it, especially the rifle rounds!

[MagnusTheReD]

Another point against the JHP rounds in the military is that they're highly ineffective against armored targets, and since most modern armies issue bulletproof vests to their soldiers...

[Adrian Laguna]

The difference between the FMJ and the JHP is that a FMJ will not kill you unless it hits some vital organs, while the JHP is likely to kill you even if it doesn't directly hit any vital organs since it causes massive damage to the tissue around it, especially the rifle rounds!

Another point against the JHP rounds in the military is that they're highly ineffective against armored targets, and since most modern armies issue bulletproof vests to their soldiers...

Yes, but modern armies rarely fight each other. For example, the US Army and Marines are currently engaged in daily fire-fights with unarmoured insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. They would probably be more effective at fighting these insurgents if they were allowed to use JHP. Quite frankly I do not see much moral difference between expanding bullets and, say, frag grenades. A frag can cause you to bleed to death from a dozen small and deep cuts scattered all over your body.

[SVPD]

Another point against the JHP rounds in the military is that they're highly ineffective against armored targets, and since most modern armies issue bulletproof vests to their soldiers...

I don't know that the flak vests of most armies will stop rifle fire. I beleive that current US ones will, but I don't believe that's the case across all modern armies.

There's also a lot of not-so-modern armies out there.

Finally, if a bullet gets stopped by body armor, who cares if it's hollow point or not?

[Aaron]

I don't know that the flak vests of most armies will stop rifle fire. I beleive that current US ones will, but I don't believe that's the case across all modern armies.

There's also a lot of not-so-modern armies out there.

Finally, if a bullet gets stopped by body armor, who cares if it's hollow point or not?

The current vest used by the Canadian Forces will stop a round fired by the AK fired point blank. Thats with plates in of course.

[Batman]

Exactly. Upon entry. Which means it's less likely to penetrate to the point where it will cause severe internal damage.

How much does a bullet have to travel to reach vital organs? Five, six centimeters? You wanna tell me a bullet of any kind might not go as deep as two five centimeters?

I already conceeded that point to Sea Skimmer. Looks like I was working either off faulty information or else faulty recollection .

The difference between the FMJ and the JHP is that a FMJ will not kill you unless it hits some vital organs,[/quote]
which it most likely will for torso hits,

while the JHP is likely to kill you even if it doesn't directly hit any vital organs

Reread what Sea Skimmer posted. The JHP, too, WILL hit vital targets,
otherwise it wouldn't be able to cause lethal damage to begin with.

since it causes massive damage to the tissue around it, especially the rifle rounds!

Which wouldn't matter much if said tissue didn't include vital organs...

[MagnusTheReD]

Finally, if a bullet gets stopped by body armor, who cares if it's hollow point or not?

As I said, JHP round are less effective against armored targets then FMJ rounds. Because they expand on impact.

[Batman]

Finally, if a bullet gets stopped by body armor, who cares if it's hollow point or not?

As I said, JHP round are less effective against armored targets then FMJ rounds. Because they expand on impact.

Reread what you quoted. SVPD is asking who cares if the bullet gets stopped cold anyway.
And frankly if your concern is to minimize undue suffering among those shot, WRT body armour JHP is preferrable, BECAUSE it won't penetrate the vest

[MagnusTheReD]

I already conceeded that point to Sea Skimmer.

I am sorry, I posted it some moments after you, before I was able to see your post. I think I did, I don't exactly remember...

Which wouldn't matter much if said tissue didn't include vital organs...

I was actually talking about the times when the bullet passes very closely to vital organs, but not actually hitting them.
In this case you have good chances to survive a FMJ hit, but not the JHP hit.
Basically means the JHP damages more tissue when enters.

[MagnusTheReD]

Reread what you quoted. SVPD is asking who cares if the bullet gets stopped cold anyway

I think my point was that a JHP is easier to stop...
Sorry, I'm kinda unfocused right now.

And frankly if your concern is to minimize undue suffering among those shot, WRT body armour JHP is preferrable, BECAUSE it won't penetrate the vest

Agreed.
We should just issue our troops rifles with tranquilizers and get it over with!

[Batman]

I already conceeded that point to Sea Skimmer.

I am sorry, I posted it some moments after you, before I was able to see your post. I think I did, I don't exactly remember...

That wasn't a complaint, just a FYI in case of something just like that.

Which wouldn't matter much if said tissue didn't include vital organs...

I was actually talking about the times when the bullet passes very closely to vital organs, but not actually hitting them.
In this case you have good chances to survive a FMJ hit, but not the JHP hit.
Basically means the JHP damages more tissue when enters.

Ah. I see. Completely correct, of course. Unfortunately that means that with the FMJ hit you will ALSO not necessarily stop shooting back for the time being so people will keep shooting at you until you do...

[MagnusTheReD]

Unfortunately that means that with the FMJ hit you will ALSO not necessarily stop shooting back for the time being so people will keep shooting at you until you do...

That's what the hand grenades for!
But no, you're right.

Here's another point we haven't touched yet, and I think it's the real reason why HJP round are rarely used in combat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing HJP round are useless on long ranges because of their poor aerodynamics.
I personally don't wanna be stuck in a situation when there's a guy who's aiming at me from two hundred meters away and I have only JHP's in my mag.
Of course, those are only my wild speculations, maybe rifle HJP's are still usable in ranges over 200 meters, I don't know.

[Darwin]

Exactly. Upon entry. Which means it's less likely to penetrate to the point where it will cause severe internal damage.

How much does a bullet have to travel to reach vital organs? Five, six centimeters? You wanna tell me a bullet of any kind might not go as deep as two five centimeters?

I already conceeded that point to Sea Skimmer. Looks like I was working either off faulty information or else faulty recollection .

To do so reliably and in all conditions, you're looking at 12 to 16 inches of penetration, based on FBI studies. No reason to quote the minimum, best case need.

The difference between the FMJ and the JHP is that a FMJ will not kill you unless it hits some vital organs,

which it most likely will for torso hits,

while the JHP is likely to kill you even if it doesn't directly hit any vital organs

Reread what Sea Skimmer posted. The JHP, too, WILL hit vital targets,
otherwise it wouldn't be able to cause lethal damage to begin with.

since it causes massive damage to the tissue around it, especially the rifle rounds!

Which wouldn't matter much if said tissue didn't include vital organs...

The main point is, FMJ will kill just as reliably as JHP if it penetrates vital organs.. but the victim is more likely to be able to continue fighting for longer before he dies, because the trauma is less compared to an expanding bullet. JHP IS marginally easier for armor to stop, but a lot of military rounds (like our M855) get around this by using dual-purpose bullets, with a thin steel core wrapped in soft lead and copper jacket. It hurts no matter what.

[Batman]

The main point is, FMJ will kill just as reliably as JHP if it penetrates vital organs.. but the victim is more likely to be able to continue fighting for longer before he dies, because the trauma is less compared to an expanding bullet.

Err-yes? My mistakes WRT FMJ vs JHP notwithstanding I rather think that was my point.

[SVPD]

Here's another point we haven't touched yet, and I think it's the real reason why HJP round are rarely used in combat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing HJP round are useless on long ranges because of their poor aerodynamics.
I personally don't wanna be stuck in a situation when there's a guy who's aiming at me from two hundred meters away and I have only JHP's in my mag.
Of course, those are only my wild speculations, maybe rifle HJP's are still usable in ranges over 200 meters, I don't know.

Hunters use hollow point bullets. If they had seriosu aerodynamic problems, this probably would not be the case.

[Darwin]

Here's another point we haven't touched yet, and I think it's the real reason why HJP round are rarely used in combat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thing HJP round are useless on long ranges because of their poor aerodynamics.
I personally don't wanna be stuck in a situation when there's a guy who's aiming at me from two hundred meters away and I have only JHP's in my mag.
Of course, those are only my wild speculations, maybe rifle HJP's are still usable in ranges over 200 meters, I don't know.

Hunters use hollow point bullets. If they had seriosu aerodynamic problems, this probably would not be the case.

Never much of a consideration for pistols. rifle hollowpoints tend to use a plastic tip that helps the aerodynamics and doesn't affect the wound ballistics one bit.

[Stuart]

The main point is, FMJ will kill just as reliably as JHP if it penetrates vital organs.. but the victim is more likely to be able to continue fighting for longer before he dies, because the trauma is less compared to an expanding bullet. JHP IS marginally easier for armor to stop, but a lot of military rounds (like our M855) get around this by using dual-purpose bullets, with a thin steel core wrapped in soft lead and copper jacket. It hurts no matter what.

A couple of things here. Remember the rules were written in the 1890s where rifles and bullets were much different things from now. The ammunition was a lot more powerful (there's a reason why things like the 5.56x45 and the 7.62x39 are classed as intermediate rounds). That meant if somebody took a hit from one, evena non-lethal one, they weren't getting up again for a long time. Therefore, a bullet that did more than that was perceived as having no military advantages. Also, the bullets used then were round-nosed and they were pretty much ballistically stable.

Not long afterwards, military bullets shifted to the "Spitzer" design. These had the long, pointed nose we are familiar with today. These bullets are ballistically unstable; the "natural" way for the bullets to move is to go blunt end first, pointy-end backwards - like a drop of water. It's only the spin on the bullet that keeps them going pointy-end forward. When they hit flesh, the rules change a bit and the spin doesn't stabilize them. The bullet tries to turn over and go blunt-end forward and in doing so starts to tumble and bounce around inside the victim. This makes a much bigger hole (aka permanent wound cavity).

When we shifted over to the new generation of smaller bullets (5.45 or 5.56mm) at higher velocity, something interesting happened. The stress inside the bullet as it tumbled was greater than that needed to fracture the bullet itself. (That's partly due to higher stress from the higher velocity and lower strength due to the smaller bullet). So, the bullet breaks up, usually into two large sections plus a spray of small fragments which go through the body like a shotgun blast. The permament wound cavity is much larger and it tends to be strange shapes. Plus, it takes a lot of surgery to get all the bits out of the victim.

Really, a JHP doesn't get one much more than that. Indeed, it might get one a lot less - its arguable that a mushroomed hollow point is more stable and cohesive than a fragmenting FMJ.