why are american suburbs so badly designed?

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2007-04-22 03:46am

Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2007-04-22 04:42am

Dennis Toy wrote:Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

Maybe it's just that particular suburb, or some suburbs around the country. Mines doesn't fit that description for the most part.

The one you saw was either bad planning or probably cause it's relatively brand-new and barely-developed.

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2007-04-22 10:43am

Dennis Toy wrote:Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

1. Car culture. I can walk across the river to my friend's apartment in less than half an hour, and that's taking my own sweet time. Otoh, he can drive over to my place in a sixth that time. People love their cars, and use them every chance they get. Therefore, everyplace needs tons of parking space.
2. Its easier to mass produce houses according to a small set of master plans. Saddly, they lack character and soul. Also, they tend to plant cheep invasive species (I'm looking at you Norway Maple!)
3. No sidewalks. . . Now that's harder to explain. I'm gonna have to sit this one out for lack of data.
4. No transit? Because there is this misconception that busses/subways/light rail are all for the poor/crazy homeless. Do you want to be rubbing elbows with the poor and homeless? If not, than don't ride the bus!

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2007-04-22 10:53am

Vehrec wrote:
Dennis Toy wrote:Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?
1. Car culture. I can walk across the river to my friend's apartment in less than half an hour, and that's taking my own sweet time. Otoh, he can drive over to my place in a sixth that time. People love their cars, and use them every chance they get. Therefore, everyplace needs tons of parking space.
2. Its easier to mass produce houses according to a small set of master plans. Saddly, they lack character and soul. Also, they tend to plant cheep invasive species (I'm looking at you Norway Maple!)
3. No sidewalks. . . Now that's harder to explain. I'm gonna have to sit this one out for lack of data.
4. No transit? Because there is this misconception that busses/subways/light rail are all for the poor/crazy homeless. Do you want to be rubbing elbows with the poor and homeless? If not, than don't ride the bus!

Before anybody starts complaining about cookie cutter houses, take a look at British rowhouses, or any new housing in pretty much any country built by the government or large companies since the second world war (or at least since the 70's or so). They are ALL built from a small set of master plans that vary only by geography, specifically to be cheap and easy to build. If you want a custom home, I hope you have the money for it.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2007-04-22 10:57am

Oh yeah, and Vehrec hit the nail on the head with his first answer - car culture. Very few suburbs are built with mass-transit in mind, for a variety of reasons, but they're all built (at least in the US) with the understanding that families own two or three cars, want very large homes, and want to drive everywhere.

Where I live, while you can easily walk around in-town, getting to town from anywhere else is a massive pain in the ass. Two-lane state highways are not designed for pedestrians...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-04-22 11:36am

Look at those new suiburban "power centres" that are replacing shopping malls. A "power centre" is a collection of large big-box stores that are arranged around a huge parking lot. In essence, they took the traditional shopping mall and turned it inside out. Whereas the old shopping mall was centred around the mall, the new "power centre" is centred around the parking lot. The parking lot is literally the central feature of the modern "power centre". That tells you how far "car culture" has gone; it's ridiculous. Modern power centres are so shitty for a walking browser that I've seen people get in their cars and drive to the opposite end of the giant central parking lot in order to continue their shopping.

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2007-04-22 11:41am

Darth Wong wrote: Modern power centres are so shitty for a walking browser that I've seen people get in their cars and drive to the opposite end of the giant central parking lot in order to continue their shopping.

I have actually done that, but in my defense this thing was a mile and a half long and we had to carry wood.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-04-22 11:50am

Dennis Toy wrote:Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Which Suburb is this? It sure as hell wasn't Fairfax. If it was it was a specific neighborhood...but I can walk either to a Target or a bus that will take me straight to work where I am.

Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

In Northern VA they do. There's just a hell of a lot more buses running during the week. Because, you know, that's when most people go to work in the District.

Otherwise, yeah, car culture.

(I take the blue line in to work everyday, by the way).

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2007-04-22 12:51pm

Dennis Toy wrote: Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

A huge, huge number of suburban developments were built in the post-WW2 era, when housing was in enormous demand (the GI Bill meant that millions of veterans could now all of a sudden afford to invest in their own house) and cars were everywhere. Mass transit? Whatever for? Go buy a car! Indulge like you couldn't during the Depression!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2007-04-22 01:41pm

Virginia sucks. What more explanation do you want?

Don't forget the fact that suburbs expand rather haphazardly as well, and that the people in the suburb tend to fight the zoning commissions more to keep the suburbs the way they like them (eg not connecting small streets to major roads to preserve the lower traffic volume.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2007-04-22 10:00pm

Re: why are american suburbs so badly designed?
Dennis Toy wrote:
Today i was in a suburb of VA to buy a piece of stereo equipment, I had to walk with that heavy ass thing from there to the Metro and back to DC. In the suburb, there were almost no sidewalks, the streets were like highways and there were barren land between the oversized stores and parking lots. American suburbs are all the same, they look monotonous, nothing but oversized stores and malls. You actually have to drive just to the corner store.

Which Suburb is this? It sure as hell wasn't Fairfax. If it was it was a specific neighborhood...but I can walk either to a Target or a bus that will take me straight to work where I am.

Quote:
Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

In Northern VA they do. There's just a hell of a lot more buses running during the week. Because, you know, that's when most people go to work in the District.

Otherwise, yeah, car culture.

(I take the blue line in to work everyday, by the way).
_________________

It was Springfield VA. It has buses and it is linked to the metro with a huge transit center. What i am talking about was that you have to walk aorund the massive highways and the large parking lots and the large Avenues and sidewalk-less places.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2007-04-22 11:09pm

Vehrec wrote:3. No sidewalks. . . Now that's harder to explain. I'm gonna have to sit this one out for lack of data.

This one is easy. Sidewalks cost money, and if you can't walk easily from place to place anyway, why bother?

4. No transit? Because there is this misconception that busses/subways/light rail are all for the poor/crazy homeless. Do you want to be rubbing elbows with the poor and homeless? If not, than don't ride the bus!

This is overthinking the problem. Lack of transit is a matter of logistics in the suburbs. Transit is uneconomical when the population density is too low, and neighborhoods of freestanding single family houses in the middle of large lawns will not be densely populated enough unless each family has ten children. The problem just gets worse the bigger the houses get, because those giant 5000 square foot McMansions on half acre lots typically don't have more people living in them than 1500 square foot starter homes.

There's also the problem that destinations have started spreading out as well. During early automobile-centric suburban development, commercial and industrial jobs were still concentrated mostly in the cities. Now in the last 30 years or so it's been moving out to office and industrial parks in the suburbs, also low density developments. I used to work in one in south Jersey that was bigger than some municipalities; even if NJ Transit did have a bus stop or two in it, odds are you'd still have to walk miles to get to your job.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2007-04-22 11:32pm

American cities (especially suburbs) are entirely designed around the car. There is (or was) a lot of land in the USA so its cheaper to build or buy in an ever expanding series of suburbs.

As for sidewalks missing it must be a local funding or regulation issue. There are sidewalks all over the suburbs in my area but people use them for excercise and not for getting real business done.

TheLemur · Post by **TheLemur** » 2007-04-22 11:44pm

There's also the problem that destinations have started spreading out as well.

Indeed. When I wanted to take a job at the local chain store as a high school student, I had to wait to buy a car because it would have taken forty minutes each way walking on the side of the road (no sidewalks).

and not for getting real business done.

What real business? The only real jobs available in a lot of suburbs are in the stores and restaurants. You have to get a car anyway because everybody commutes, so why not use it to drive to the supermarket? Because you feel like carrying twenty kilos of stuff two kilometers in the rain/snow/heat/whatever?

with the understanding that families own two or three cars, want very large homes, and want to drive everywhere.

The "very large homes" part of that is going to be hit hard even if cars continue on as normal, because when house prices crash a large percentage of those homes are going to be under water.

Because there is this misconception that busses/subways/light rail are all for the poor/crazy homeless.

When was the last time you saw a homeless person in suburbia? There are often no shelters, no places to put an improvised shack, and no places to get food. The one bus that did come into my suburb stopped in the middle of a parking lot, with no houses or apartments for a kilometer in any direction, which really kind of misses the point.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-04-23 12:17am

Dennis Toy wrote:
It was Springfield VA. It has buses and it is linked to the metro with a huge transit center. What i am talking about was that you have to walk aorund the massive highways and the large parking lots and the large Avenues and sidewalk-less places.

You're talking about Franconia-Springfield, right? It's only a problem if you're too lazy to walk one block in a direction to the sidewalk. You're probably one of those assholes who walks in the middle of the street instead of going to the other end of the garage and exiting where the sidewalk is.

(sorry...I just really hate those folks...and I ride that train every day)

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 2007-04-23 12:34am

It seems that city designers wish to isolate shopping, employment (comercial/industrial) and housing.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2007-04-23 01:09am

My suburban town has its own bus system. It's technically one city, but there's different areas of it, sort of like how Los Angeles city has several different areas to it. One area is quite urban, with apartments within a couple blocks to the main shopping center and mall, and another area is way out there in the near-boonies, with custom homes and such. It's got a population of about 150,000.

the wicked prince · Post by **the wicked prince** » 2007-04-23 01:30am

Some suburbs are better than others.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2007-04-23 01:56am

My suburb is very nice, I’m two blocks from a train to the city and we have sidewalks on almost every street.

The reason American suburbs often do suck is because generally no planning was involved in building more then any single subdivision at a time. These slowly filled in the space between existing small towns that might date back 200-300 years. Everything was built up over time and items like sidewalks are just more money a developer has to spend, if the law didn't force them to do so then they wont. Public transportation was no concern at all, suburbs in America are meant to be served by individual cars. Most have far too much sprawl for even biking to be a realistic alternative to driving.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2007-04-23 02:13am

Dennis Toy wrote:

It was Springfield VA. It has buses and it is linked to the metro with a huge transit center. What i am talking about was that you have to walk aorund the massive highways and the large parking lots and the large Avenues and sidewalk-less places.

You're talking about Franconia-Springfield, right? It's only a problem if you're too lazy to walk one block in a direction to the sidewalk. You're probably one of those assholes who walks in the middle of the street instead of going to the other end of the garage and exiting where the sidewalk is.

(sorry...I just really hate those folks...and I ride that train every day)

Yes, Franconia-Springfield is what i am talking about. I WALK everyday... I live in DC, i have no car, I WALK,.. I WALK in my job. I am NOT lazy... and i walk THROUGH the garage to get out the other side.

My problem is that the area in question is badly designed. You have to literaly walk beside a highway and around oversized streets to get to the mall.

Erik von Nein · Post by **Erik von Nein** » 2007-04-23 03:15am

There's also the huge subsidies cars got from the federal government when massive pork barrel transportation bills got passed. When billions of dollars get pumped into a system designed around making it easier for cars to get from one place to another, while letting rail and bus systems atrophy and die, combined with all of the other factors, you'll get these kinds of build up.

Also, increased ability to move water and electricity made suburbs more practical to build. The Mulholland project in L.A. is a good example of not only massive corruption but of how a small-ish metro area can balloon up to massive proportions due to the road subsidies and ease of obtaining water.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-04-23 03:20am

There's a power centre in my neighbourhood which is so badly designed for walking that in order to browse all the stores on foot, you actually have to leave the power centre at one point and go out onto the public roadways in order to find sidewalks, and then re-enter the power centre somewhere else. Otherwise you have to cross driveways with big signs saying "Incoming Traffic Does Not Stop" and not a crosswalk or even a white painted line in sight. There are sections which have no sidewalks, so you have to walk on grass. The place is literally designed around the assumption that you would use your car to get from one end of the complex to the other.

Dennis Toy · Post by **Dennis Toy** » 2007-04-23 03:35am

There's a power centre in my neighbourhood which is so badly designed for walking that in order to browse all the stores on foot, you actually have to leave the power centre at one point and go out onto the public roadways in order to find sidewalks, and then re-enter the power centre somewhere else. Otherwise you have to cross driveways with big signs saying "Incoming Traffic Does Not Stop" and not a crosswalk or even a white painted line in sight. There are sections which have no sidewalks, so you have to walk on grass. The place is literally designed around the assumption that you would use your car to get from one end of the complex to the other.

we have something like that in america, we call it the Strip Mall. Examples of the badly designed suburban places that pop up when you drive down one of these oversized roads.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-04-23 12:32pm

Dennis Toy wrote:
My problem is that the area in question is badly designed. You have to literaly walk beside a highway and around oversized streets to get to the mall.

No, you don't. You have to walk under the parkway overpass. And even if you didn't want to do that, and you wanted to get to the mall, you could have walked your ass out and taken one of the courtesy shuttle buses.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2007-04-23 01:42pm

Dennis Toy wrote:Just why in the hell are suburbs designed this way? Why not design suburbs that hug the city and that are linked by transit?

Mass transit isn't particularly attractive to the American public, so it isn't well financed or developed. Cars and fuel are still cheap enough that we would rather drive than learn a bus/train schedule and plan our activities around it (assuming such a thing is even available in the area). Businesses are built on the cheapest land available in the desired area, hence the sprawl.