Point Blank Range

[PayBack]

What's annoying is there has become what I believe is a brain bug now that ISD's targeting is poor at close range. They take that scene and say that the rebels were taking advantage of that weakness. The fact Akbar said they won't last long at that close range and the fact they were only doing it to avoid the death star, tends to say otherwise.

[avatarxprime]

I think the fire control is the big issue here. If the Imps had severly impaired fire control due to the loss of the communication ship, then combined with ECM and ECCM from the rebels plus the apparent superiority of Mon Cal pilots and manueverability (based on statements in this thread) then during the time they are closing the Imps can get more and more shots in. Also, as Gunhead mentioned, the Stardestroyers were holding back, and if the Rebels started to charge forward they would have no choice but to open up and defend themselves. So by moving to point blank range you are giving the Imps better shot accuracy and forcing them to use bigger guns more often. Not a good idea.

[Batman]

Thank you. Again, however, this has no bearing on the maneuverability of ISD TL turrets (housing the capacitor outside the hull doesn't require the turret to be moveable at all, and we KNOW they are).

No there isn't. I was rather responding to your statement about mounting turbolasers into turrets if they couldn't traverse much. Whereas a turret is supposed to provide wide angles of fire, it does provide other advantages like housing all the necessary equipment to fire the weapon.

Again, if it can't traverse worth a damn it isn't really a turret. 'Gun mounted outside the main hull' does NOT automatically equal 'turret'.

How, exactly, would having the capacitors inside the hull compromise hull integrity? Or how would the turrets having mobility comparable to a WW2 battleship do it? *confused*

Even WWII battleships had the ammunition housed deep in the ship so that if the turret was hit, the ship won't suffer too much damage.
But given the nature of secondary explosions, an exploding turret in Star Wars will likely send some chain reaction down to the capacitor and exploding it.

Why? Because you say so?
And besides, you mean kinda like real world warships? Where the connection between the turret and the magazines by necessity WASN'T armoured?
If anything Wars warship turrets are far LESS likely to induce that kind of secondary explosion than real world ones were.

Of course I'm pulling fancy speculation and will concede if this isn't true.

Err-there's no reason to assume it is true in the first place unless you have evidence for it.

Regardless, an energy capacitor that explodes inside the hull will do more damage than one that explodes outside it.

But not necessarily by a degree to make the difference worth worrying about. Again, if your armour has already been overcome, as you're facing TT+ level firepower secondaries are of limited concern. Besides, if enemy fire can blow through your hull armour from millions of kilometres away, if your TL have the SAME firepower, them going kablooey will release a comparable amount of energy so there's a chance they'll get through your armour...which won't likely be THERE beneath the turrets.

[Warsie]

As ridiculous as it may seem, the NR was weak and the Yevethans had the Intimidator and an assortment of Star Destroyers. And we both know that the so called "New Class" ships gave the NR flexibility but no teeth and countless other weaknesses.

Actually, they were likely referring to the centralized/federally controlled NR fleets; The New Republic is a Confederacy, as such the planetary and sector government have more power, and that likely included naval forces; The Empire's reign had the Galaxy turn away from heavily-centralized government and the NR wouldn't be criticized as much if they gave their fleets to local authorities.

It's mentioned in 'The New Rebellion" that there are 'voting republics' and the Caamas Incident couldn't have happened with a centralized authority; most of the fleet was in local authorities. When the battle over Bothawui happened, there was something like 5 NR Federal ships orbiting Bothawui; the rest were owned by the Mon Calamari, Ishori, Diamala, Corellian, etc governments

[Darth Wong]

Just how quickly can heavy guns traverse? It may be that the heavy guns traverse quite slowly and are really only good for long-range fire, so you nullify them somewhat by closing in.

It should be noted that while Ackbar thought they wouldn't last very long against the Star Destroyers at close range, they actually did last quite a while, and were even able to bring down Executor's bridge shields long enough for fighters to get in and take out the bridge. It may be that he was simply wrong in his assessment, and that Star Destroyers actually fight better at long range than close range.

Of course, Piett was holding his fire due to the Emperor's asinine orders when they were at long range, so I imagine they only really opened up when the Rebels were already almost on top of them. Hence, the Rebels got lucky on both counts: Piett held fire at long range and they got "inside" the range of the big guns when they mixed it up, like a boxer who deliberately moves in close.

[Stark]

It's possible the Imperials were in some way unprepared for the Nelsonian melee the rebels bought on by closing in to such very close range. They didn't seem to spread their formation out afterward (probably due to the Emperor's orders) so the rebels may have been using the mass of their formation against them, preventing the heavy long range concentrated fire that Akbar was afraid of.

Perhaps at the high level, Piett simply assumed the Emperor was going to do something awesome and everything would be okay - he didn't have to keep control of the situation, the Emperor was there, what could possibly go wrong? The Emperor's presence may have stifled initiative even further.

[Warsie]

Just how quickly can heavy guns traverse? It may be that the heavy guns traverse quite slowly and are really only good for long-range fire, so you nullify them somewhat by closing in.

And it's hard for some of them to maneuver, like the quad turboladers in the ISD trenches.

Of course, Piett was holding his fire due to the Emperor's asinine orders when they were at long range, so I imagine they only really opened up when the Rebels were already almost on top of them. Hence, the Rebels got lucky on both counts: Piett held fire at long range and they got "inside" the range of the big guns when they mixed it up, like a boxer who deliberately moves in close.

The Imperial and Alliance Fleets were in long-range duels actually; The CRS Liberty was in the middle of such a duel when the DSII Superlaser destroyed it

They didn't seem to spread their formation out afterward (probably due to the Emperor's orders) so the rebels may have been using the mass of their formation against them, preventing the heavy long range concentrated fire that Akbar was afraid of.

If the Imps did spread their formation out AFTER the battle begun, wouldn't that leave the Imp ships more vulnerable while resetting their ship positions to Alliance fire, CRS and such going behind them, etc. Wouldn't that be harder if the ISDs stayed? And there was the outer portion of the Sector Fleet helping them.

[Batman]

Just how quickly can heavy guns traverse? It may be that the heavy guns traverse quite slowly and are really only good for long-range fire, so you nullify them somewhat by closing in.

And it's hard for some of them to maneuver, like the quad turboladers in the ISD trenches.

Except those AREN'T heavy guns. They definitely have a limited field of fire but the trench guns are likely a LOT more maneuverable within their limitations than the topside turrets.

Of course, Piett was holding his fire due to the Emperor's asinine orders when they were at long range, so I imagine they only really opened up when the Rebels were already almost on top of them. Hence, the Rebels got lucky on both counts: Piett held fire at long range and they got "inside" the range of the big guns when they mixed it up, like a boxer who deliberately moves in close.

The Imperial and Alliance Fleets were in long-range duels actually; The CRS Liberty was in the middle of such a duel when the DSII Superlaser destroyed it.

Individual ships exchanging fire (assuming the imperials were even shooting back, I honestly don't remember) does not a fleet engagement make. The vast majority of the Imp fleet at any rate was NOT engaging the Rebels.

[apocolypse]

Just how quickly can heavy guns traverse? It may be that the heavy guns traverse quite slowly and are really only good for long-range fire, so you nullify them somewhat by closing in.

I'm not sure if it's helpful or not, but I ran some rough calcs a while ago on the heavies for a debate I was in at SB. The Guarlara appeared to have a minimal rotation of 40 to 50 degrees in less than five seconds, and the quad lasers on a Lucrehulk can turn the same in only a couple of seconds. The Guarlara may be able to do the same, however it wouldn't have been necessary for them at the time a they were going head on with the IH.

[Stark]

Attempting to keep the range with the rebels would have probably allowed them to escape. The Imperials really had very little flexibility in their orders, and by the time things started to go wrong they were already in a close melee which they were apparently unprepared for - particularly since they'd thrown their unsupported fighters in early and lost much of their cover.

Many battles have been lost by commanders sticking to the letter of their orders in bad situations, and this is what Piett appeared to do. It's got to be hard to show initiative when there's a magic wizard with a 100% win rate in a giant battlestation telling you to do nothing and wait.

[Batman]

Just how quickly can heavy guns traverse? It may be that the heavy guns traverse quite slowly and are really only good for long-range fire, so you nullify them somewhat by closing in.

I'm not sure if it's helpful or not, but I ran some rough calcs a while ago on the heavies for a debate I was in at SB. The Guarlara appeared to have a minimal rotation of 40 to 50 degrees in less than five seconds,

So let's assume 10°/sec and a target distance of 10 km. At that distance an MC80 at 1.2km is roughly 6.8° long so to be passing faster than the turret can follow it would need a relative (and perpendicular (I think is the term)) velocity of 5.67 kps. That's less then a third of a second runup using Wars capship accelerations. Naturally the engagement window grows as the distance does but at least in ROTJ they were getting DAMN close to the Imps.

[NeoGoomba]

With Palpatine's "Battle Meditation" mojo at work on Death Squadron, is it possible that it also suppressed the initiative of Piett and other officers, maybe binding them a little more tightly to Palpatine's order than they otherwise would have? The only time it seems that some sort of pro-active measure taken by the Imps was Pelleaon's order to retreat, after Palpatine got thrown down his well.

[Lord Pounder]

This is backed up by Heir to the Empire. As Thrawn put it the suddent last minute TIE pilot incompetance allowing the Rebel fighters to enter the DS superstructure plus the loss of no less than 6 Imperial Star Destroyers, several undameged enough to be later used by the Rebellion. The Imperial Fleet fought on, but they fought on like cadets.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Imperials where un-used to the Rebels standing up and fighting back. Up untill Endor the Rebels had fought a terrorist war, hitting soft targets hard and then running before the big hitters gpt there.

[Baal]

This is backed up by Heir to the Empire. As Thrawn put it the suddent last minute TIE pilot incompetance allowing the Rebel fighters to enter the DS superstructure plus the loss of no less than 6 Imperial Star Destroyers, several undameged enough to be later used by the Rebellion. The Imperial Fleet fought on, but they fought on like cadets.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Imperials where un-used to the Rebels standing up and fighting back. Up untill Endor the Rebels had fought a terrorist war, hitting soft targets hard and then running before the big hitters gpt there.

I always felt this was one of the lamest ideas ever put forward by the Thrawn wank novels.

Do we ever see this ideas repeated? At any point during the Clone Wars do we have a Jedi in one of the novels using Battle Meditation to help the Clones fight better against the CIS?

[Noble Ire]

This is backed up by Heir to the Empire. As Thrawn put it the suddent last minute TIE pilot incompetance allowing the Rebel fighters to enter the DS superstructure plus the loss of no less than 6 Imperial Star Destroyers, several undameged enough to be later used by the Rebellion. The Imperial Fleet fought on, but they fought on like cadets.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Imperials where un-used to the Rebels standing up and fighting back. Up untill Endor the Rebels had fought a terrorist war, hitting soft targets hard and then running before the big hitters gpt there.

I always felt this was one of the lamest ideas ever put forward by the Thrawn wank novels.

Do we ever see this ideas repeated? At any point during the Clone Wars do we have a Jedi in one of the novels using Battle Meditation to help the Clones fight better against the CIS?

For one, canonically, Grand Admiral Nial Declann was the one who employed Battle Meditation at the Battle of Endor before he was killed when the second Death Star exploded. Emperor Palpatine may have possessed the ability, but he was obviously preoccupied during the engagement.

And the concept is used a great deal throughout the EU. Its usage by Bastila Shan and Lord Kaan during the Old Republica era indicate that it was an extremely old Jedi and Sith ability, and several Jedi, among them Yoda and Oppo Rancisis employed the technique during the Clone Wars.

[NeoGoomba]

For one, canonically, Grand Admiral Nial Declann was the one who employed Battle Meditation at the Battle of Endor before he was killed when the second Death Star exploded

Ah my mistake.

[Chris OFarrell]

For one, canonically, Grand Admiral Nial Declann was the one who employed Battle Meditation at the Battle of Endor before he was killed when the second Death Star exploded

Ah my mistake.

In short Thrawn was quite correct in the effects, but got the minor details wrong.

And as for heavy weapons, we see plenty of times the relative velocities of the Imperial and Rebel ships when they mix it up, they sure as hell were not moving at multi kilometer a second relative velocities. We see how quickly the turrets on the Venators can track in ROTS, they are not THAT slow.

A great deal of the time we see ships are in perfect broadside aspects to the Imperial ships batteries of heavy weapons, but they are NOT cutting loose. I don't think the Imperial defeat at Endor is really something that can be explained by a single issue.

After all the "communications ship" is really an irrelevancy, the Executor herself would almost certainly have more C4I technology then the rest of the ships combined.

But the loss, in close succession, of the Communications ship, the 'hesitation' of the Imperial ships after the rebels charged in but were still under *Imperial* orders to not get involved, Piets incompetence and inability to adjust to the changing situation, the lack of a clear chain of command and any real command and control after Executor slammed into the Death Star, Declanns sudden cutting off of the Battle Meditation causing huge confusion...

It does explain why around the time of the Emperors Death/Executors destruction the entire fleet fell apart suddenly. I mean when Ackbar gives the order to concentrate fire on Executor, we see an ISD and MonCal exchanging some VERY BIG turbolaser bolts in the background. The ISD misses. The MonCal does not.

But it doesn't really explain how the Star Destroyers got their asses handed to them before these twin major reversals. The MonCal cruisers we see mixing it up are sure as heck not doing their absolute best to stay OUT of the line of fire of the heavy weapons on the ISDs, but the heavy weapons don't really appear to be firing at all. I mean Executor alone should light up the sky with sheets of turbolaser fire. Yet when we see her in Ackbars window, she ain't doing anything.

Not to mention like most of the SW EU, the Battle of Endor suffers greatly from a dozen authors wanting to put their own personal stamp on the battle. I mean from the movie and some sources it looked quite clear to me that after the DS2 blew up, the battle was more or less over and the Imperials retreated. Other sources then come in and say no, the battle went on for another 7 or 8 hours which IMHO is just stupid. But unfortunately, canon.

[Darth Wong]

The idea that Imperial forces were unaccustomed to an enemy who fights back is absurd. Only a tiny portion of the Empire's forces were ever directly engaging the Rebels at any given time. The rest of the time, they had to be capable of putting down local uprisings that could be on a planetary or even interstellar scale. The star fleet of an entire region of space such as the CSA had to be kept in line by the threat of Imperial force if they decided to stop obeyind Imperial law.

[Warsie]

Individual ships exchanging fire (assuming the imperials were even shooting back, I honestly don't remember) does not a fleet engagement make. The vast majority of the Imp fleet at any rate was NOT engaging the Rebels.

I believe it was mentioned in the ROTJ Novelization, about the Liberty reference. And wouldn't it be weird to be shot at and not o anything about that, even with Palpatine's orders.

And much of the Imp Fleet wasn't engaging the Rebels because they were in the outer system providing a second line of containment. I wonder what happened there

Except those AREN'T heavy guns. They definitely have a limited field of fire but the trench guns are likely a LOT more maneuverable within their limitations than the topside turrets.

Okay

Attempting to keep the range with the rebels would have probably allowed them to escape.

What about the Outer Sector Fleet?

particularly since they'd th*Arown their unsupported fighters in early and lost much of their cover.

Wouldn't the Executor's complement cover any such deficiencies? And the Death Star did send out some fighters to deal with the Alliance, the Rebels had to do a forward punch and take out some 212 or so TIEs (AT LEAST) in the DSII defensive screen before the shield even went down.

I mean from the movie and some sources it looked quite clear to me that after the DS2 blew up, the battle was more or less over and the Imperials retreated. Other sources then come in and say no, the battle went on for another 7 or 8 hours which IMHO is just stupid. But unfortunately, canon.

how does it not make sense? Not all Imperials would want to retreat like that, some had pride and would not want to retreat, the retreat was disorderly and weird, DS II explosion/debris messing with comms and the outer fleet probably not even in much battle until DS II blew up could explain some pockets of resistance lasting for that long. Some Imperials (like the Virulence's captain) fled after the Executor crashed; some (like Harrsk) fled after the DSII blew up

And I thought it was 4 hours before Teshik's ship was disabled/captured

EDIT: and evryone, the Imp Fleet took decent losses before Palpatine died as well.

[Bluewolf]

About weather the heavy turbolaser/turrets can fire fowards. According to the ROTS Incredible Cross Sections theVenator's 8 heavy turbolaser turrets can rotate in three seconds in its close fighting, fast tracking mode. Though this mode is ment for broadside battles is does not discount that they can still rotate. Now may ask why i brought up the Venator. The reason is that the Venator is the predeccer to the Imperator class which also has four large heavy turbolasers It would not be unresonable to assume that the Imperator also has this three second(maybe quicker) turbolaser turret rotation. I'd doubt they would scarp it.

Ps: First post. I hope i have not made a fool of my self.

[TC Pilot]

According to the ROTJ novelization (I suppose looking at one of the two sources that actually deals with the subject hadn't occurred to anyone?), capital ship combat at such close range is completely unprecedented. So even though Rebel crewers have no clue how to fight at such close range, neither do the Imperials. They weren't trained for it.

Combine that with the Imperials throwing a good portion of its fighter superiority away at the begining of the battle and the destruction of the Imperial communications ship, the battle simply degenerates into a free-for-all until Ackbar gets enough ships together to emasculate Executor.

Than Pellaeon blows whatever chance the Imperials have of at least getting a phyrric victory by retreating and taking most of the fleet with him.

[Warsie]

According to the ROTJ novelization (I suppose looking at one of the two sources that actually deals with the subject hadn't occurred to anyone?),

I actually did mention the novelization several times

capital ship combat at such close range is completely unprecedented. So even though Rebel crewers have no clue how to fight at such close range, neither do the Imperials. They weren't trained for it.

That's contradicted by the Battle of Coruscant during the Clone Wars however, and I find it hard that in a 25,000+ year old galaxy that something like this hasn't happened before.

Combine that with the Imperials throwing a good portion of its fighter superiority away at the begining of the battle

The Death Star makes up for any weakness, providing fighters during some of the later portions of the battle.

and the destruction of the Imperial communications ship, the battle simply degenerates into a free-for-all until Ackbar gets enough ships together to emasculate Executor.

That happens AFTER Palpatine dies though?

Than Pellaeon blows whatever chance the Imperials have of at least getting a phyrric victory by retreating and taking most of the fleet with him.

But the Imperials were losing ships left and right at this point and would not win as they were dispersed and not used to these ways of fighting unlike the Rebels. They could do what they did at Denab: concentrate on each ship/task force until it wad destroyed then move on.

And for the ship firing rates and accuracy, those guns can hit a Corellian Corvette based on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mph0QnTQ ... ed&search=

[Lord Pounder]

Pellaeon made the best decision he could given the circumstances. The Executor was destroyed, the Death Star destroyed, 6 Star Destroyers has either been destroyed or captured. As mentioned above the Battle Meditation had suddenly cut off leaving the Navy crew with what can be best described as withdrawl symptoms and where fighting like shit. Pellaeon pulled out and saved what remained of the fleet. And I honestly think that given the situation that even a phyrric victory was possible.

[TC Pilot]

Warsie: Apologies are in order. I didn't notice you make note of the novelization.

That's contradicted by the Battle of Coruscant during the Clone Wars however, and I find it hard that in a 25,000+ year old galaxy that something like this hasn't happened before.

Coruscant is irrelevant. Little inconsistencies like Invisible Hand v. Venator obviously may happen over the course of 25 millenia, but they certainly aren't the norm. Unless Ackbar's a complete buffoon (which he isn't), and battleships are meant to unload on each other from distances that would be too close by any standard (which they aren't), there's no reason to assume point-blank combat is something to be anticipated.

The Death Star makes up for any weakness, providing fighters during some of the later portions of the battle.

Time is money. The first waves of TIEs came from the fleet. Considering the distances between the DS and the fleet engagement, it would take precious time for those fighters to be prepped, readied, launched and reach the fighting.

And even then, the Imperials are in no condition to coordinate in a way that would make fighters meaningful.

That happens AFTER Palpatine dies though?

The Executor's spontaneous destruction happens after Palpatine's death, but that incalcuable, unobserable, unquantifiable mystical force Palpatine was apparently weilding only added to the general chaos of the battle resulting for the destruction of the Imperial fleet's command and control ability resulting from the comm. ship's destruction.

And for the ship firing rates and accuracy, those guns can hit a Corellian Corvette based on this:

Lord Pounder: Sorry, but Pellaeon did not do the right thing. The right thing would have been to follow orders and fight on as Grand Admiral Teshik commanded him to do, not desert his superior officer. The Empire's fragmentation after Endor was the only thing saving the undistinguished geezer from a court martial he deserved.

The fact the Grand Admiral fought on alone for three hours against a fleet that had suffered at least 60% casualties shows clearly enough in itself the Imperial fleet (which only lost six Star Destroyers), was more than capable of finishing off the Rebels on its own, never mind the sector fleet ringing the system.

[Lord Pounder]

TC I'm not gonna side track this thread but the Pellaeon thing has been debated a number of times on this very forum. The fact of the matter is Pellaeon couldn't be court martialed because there was no clear chain of command left. The Emperor was dead, the Executor destroyed and IIRC there where several Admirals and Grand Admirals each giving conflicting orders. Neither was Pellaeon the highest anking officer who fled, Harrask(sp?) and Terradoc both retreated too and immediately went Warlord, atleast Pellaeon kept his part of the fleet within the Empire.