3 Imperial knights v.s a borg sphere

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Sure, the Borg could theoretically do many things to stop the intruding Jedi, except they have been shown OVER AND OVER AGAIN to not do these things, even when it would save their worthless cybernetic asses.

Just for claritys sake, could you list some of the "over and over again" instances where the Borg didn't take advantage of potential avenues for dealing with hostiles?

I'm not saying this isn't the case, but I'm curious to know which examples you're using to set this precident.

I can't name episodes, because frankly the only time I ever watched Voyager (which has undoubtedly the largest number of encounters with the Borg), I usually only did it because I was bored out of my skull.

I do know, however, that there have been many occasions where the best options of the Borg would have been to overload a conduit, vent the oxygen, or transport the intruders into space. Or even blow up the whole ship. But they don't. Not ever. If they're up against a superior opponent they always try desperately to assimilate them rather than kill them, even if the former is utterly futile.

If you would like me to give specific episodes, instances and the like, I'll try to find some.

[Jark]

...this is a weak argument. The NX-01 transporter was an early prototype with (supposedly) limited capabilities. We never see this problem with later transporters, despite numerous instances of people being transported against their will and/or while in motion. It's possible that the Force would give the Imperial Knights the innate ability to resist despite none of the (non-Godlike) ST races being able to, but that's unwarranted and unnecessary speculation - the Borg have never been seen to use their transporters in this way, and if the knights have any prior intel on transporters they'll probably be carrying jamming devices.

Roga Danar and the incident mentioned occured in The Next Generation, not Enterprise.

On that note, however, we don't know if Danar had some unique implants that allowed him to do what he did, or if just anyone could do it. I mean, we've seen things that were in motion transported before, so simply moving while being transported doesn't seem to be enough.

As for jamming devices carried by the Knights, wouldn't that be up to the OP maker to decide what sort of equipment they're carrying?

[Jark]

[
I can't name episodes, because frankly the only time I ever watched Voyager (which has undoubtedly the largest number of encounters with the Borg), I usually only did it because I was bored out of my skull.

I do know, however, that there have been many occasions where the best options of the Borg would have been to overload a conduit, vent the oxygen, or transport the intruders into space. Or even blow up the whole ship. But they don't. Not ever. If they're up against a superior opponent they always try desperately to assimilate them rather than kill them, even if the former is utterly futile.

If you would like me to give specific episodes, instances and the like, I'll try to find some.

If you'd like, then sure.

The only time that comes to mind where I recall the Borg comming up against a superior opponent would be Species 8472. We know 8472 boarded chunks of Borg cubes that they'd already blown to hell, but I don't recall if they ever boarded a fully intact cube or not. Also, a lot of the traditional means for stopping an intruder wouldn't seem to work on 8472. They can go through force fields, through bulkheads, transporters have a tough time locking onto them, they can survive just fine in space.

That's why I was thinking 8472 might not be the best example to use, because of those factors, and possibly more that I'm simply forgetting. I'm not sure what else you could really use as an example of the Borg dealing with a superior force. Perhaps someone else could suggest something.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Roga Danar and the incident mentioned occured in The Next Generation, not Enterprise.

TNG Era, huh? Interesting. Well, if something like that could occur, perhaps (and this is pure speculation, and thus, not really valid to this at all) the Force could be used to prevent transportation, if the Jedi understood the basics of how in works.

As to the bit on Transporter Jammers, I'm not sure. The Original Post didn't mention anything about the circumstances of the mission. It's presumed that if Jedi have encountered transporters before or studied the Tech, then they would have found a way to jam them, so really we just go on that. The OP didn't state whether or not this was the case, so our arguments could cover both circumstances.

Also, I just noticed now that you're new here. Welcome and enjoy your stay and all that.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

The only time that comes to mind where I recall the Borg comming up against a superior opponent would be Species 8472. We know 8472 boarded chunks of Borg cubes that they'd already blown to hell, but I don't recall if they ever boarded a fully intact cube or not. Also, a lot of the traditional means for stopping an intruder wouldn't seem to work on 8472. They can go through force fields, through bulkheads, transporters have a tough time locking onto them, they can survive just fine in space.

By "superior opponent", I simply meant a group of invaders that their drones were having no luck stopping. Sorry about the vague. Voyager away-teams have screwed Borg Spheres and Cubes over pretty severely in the past, and instead of stopping them dead by ruthlessly exterminating them, the Borg send drone after drone attempting to assimilate them, even when it's not in their best interest. What's one or two extra drones worth if the price of failure is the destruction of an entire ship or the theft of a transwarp coil or the likes?

[Jark]

TNG Era, huh? Interesting. Well, if something like that could occur, perhaps (and this is pure speculation, and thus, not really valid to this at all) the Force could be used to prevent transportation, if the Jedi understood the basics of how in works.

Possibly, but I have no clue how they might go about it. Like I mentioned though, Danar was extensively modified by his people, and I think Crusher mentioned she couldn't even identify the function of some of his implants.

One thing I do definately recall was that as Danar was pushing his way out of the transporter beam, Troi was screaming at him to stop, otherwise he'd be killed. She seemed fairly certain of that result, for what it's worth.

As to the bit on Transporter Jammers, I'm not sure. The Original Post didn't mention anything about the circumstances of the mission. It's presumed that if Jedi have encountered transporters before or studied the Tech, then they would have found a way to jam them, so really we just go on that. The OP didn't state whether or not this was the case, so our arguments could cover both circumstances.

In that case, I think it's best to wait for the OP maker to clarify this setup.

One thing to note though, I don't think we know what's required to jam Borg transporters. IIRC, they were able to beam through the Enterprise's shields on their first encounter in Q Who. I think the Federation might've come up with ways to block that in the future (I think), but I'd imagine that's a lot of interference to have to transport through in the first place, a starships shields and all.

Also, I just noticed now that you're new here. Welcome and enjoy your stay and all that.

Thanks.

[Jark]

[quote="SilverWingedSeraph"By "superior opponent", I simply meant a group of invaders that their drones were having no luck stopping. Sorry about the vague. [/quote]

All good.

Voyager away-teams have screwed Borg Spheres and Cubes over pretty severely in the past, and instead of stopping them dead by ruthlessly exterminating them, the Borg send drone after drone attempting to assimilate them, even when it's not in their best interest. What's one or two extra drones worth if the price of failure is the destruction of an entire ship or the theft of a transwarp coil or the likes?

Ok, it's been a while since I've watched all the Voyager episodes with the Borg, but I think I've seen them all. Off the top of my head I'll try to go over what instances I can recall.

In Scorpion, there weren't really any instances of the Voyager crew sending a hostile away team to a Borg vessel that I can recall. In the two-parter where they steal the transwarp coil, I believe the Queen struck a deal with 7 that if she returned to the Collective, then she'd spare the Voyager crew. In the episode with Unimatrix Zero, the Borg were easily able to overpower Janeway, Tuvok and B'Elana by erecting forcefields and sending a few drones in to assimilate them. Of course that was all part of the Voyager crews plan, but it still worked just fine there.

I'm not sure if there are other instances to look at, but those ones alone don't seem to say anything bad about the Borgs methods with dealing with intruders.

[Starglider]

Roga Danar and the incident mentioned occured in The Next Generation, not Enterprise.

Sorry. I thought the name applied to a different character. I should've looked that up first.

On that note, however, we don't know if Danar had some unique implants that allowed him to do what he did,

Apparently he was an artificially boosted soldier. Frankly the 'he was implanted or injected with something that interferes with transporters' is a better explanation than 'he managed to push against it'.

As for jamming devices carried by the Knights, wouldn't that be up to the OP maker to decide what sort of equipment they're carrying?

Yes. It wasn't specified whether the knights had any prior experience with or intel on the borg or Trek tech, which I think would have some impact on the odds.

[Lord Pounder]

In TNG Riker and an away team shot up nodes and only had a few drones at a time thrown at them. The Imperial Knights will at best show up on Borg scans as humanoid and the Borg will ignore then until they become a threat. When that threat is analysed the Borg true to form will try and assimilate them, being Borg they will use a minimum of resources to accomplish this. In responce to an attack the Imperial Knights will go apeshit and by the time the Borg react they won't have much of a crew left.

[Jark]

In TNG Riker and an away team shot up nodes and only had a few drones at a time thrown at them. The Imperial Knights will at best show up on Borg scans as humanoid and the Borg will ignore then until they become a threat. When that threat is analysed the Borg true to form will try and assimilate them, being Borg they will use a minimum of resources to accomplish this. In responce to an attack the Imperial Knights will go apeshit and by the time the Borg react they won't have much of a crew left.

What makes you say that? Just because the initial wave against away teams usually consists of a handful of drones, you think that really means anything? And since this timespan between the initial wave of drones being dealt with and the next plan by the Borg is probably only going to be a few minutes at most, how are the Knights going to deal with most of the crew in that short timespan? Remember we're talking about 10,000+ drones here.

The way I see things starting is the Borg will monitor, but ignore the Knights until they become some form of threat or try to enter a secure area. We know the Borg can and will monitor the activities of intruders since I believe we saw that occuring in Unimatrix Zero. The first wave of standard drones will be dealt with pretty easily, then the Borg will start trying other things like attempting to seal off the Knights with forcefields and whatnot. I'm not sure how useful those'd be (probably not much), but it's the likely next step from what we've seen.

After that, who knows what they might try. I think there was an episode of Voyager where they beamed the crew of a shuttle into assimilation chambers, so maybe they'd try that? Weather they remove the lightsabers in transport or not is unknown. I suppose if someone has that episode, they could see if the shuttle crew was armed prior to transport and if they still had weapons after transport.

After that, I'm not sure if we've seen instances where the Borg have had to try something more drastic. The incident you mentioned with Riker and his team shooting up nodes would've eventually resulted in a victory for the Borg since they were quickly adapting to the new phaser modifications. In the end, they apparently chose to let the away team go, since I recall Worf walking past a group of drones just standing there while trying to get to Locutus.

[Lord Pounder]

Read the thread and do your research. When not active a Borg Drone will be in sleep mode as shown in TNG and later in Voyager. In 3 minutes 3 Imperial Knights can do all sorts split up and each cause havoc splitting the Collectives attention. Also where would 10,000 drones fit in said Sphere? Last i hear there would be a maximum of 800 to 1000 drones. Given how Obi-wan and Qui-gonn did against a TF DCS with a complement of 10,000 battledroids i'd be fair to say the Imperial Knights would do very well and there is no way a Drone will ever get close enough to a Knight to inject him with nano-probes..

[Jark]

Read the thread and do your research. When not active a Borg Drone will be in sleep mode as shown in TNG and later in Voyager.

Your advice is good. I suggest following it.

The options for Borg drones when attackers are around aren't either sleep or engage intruder. We've seen many times that Borg drones are always walking around the ship, performing whatever task they're supposed to perform. So it's not like all the drones except a select few will just be sitting around regenerating.

In 3 minutes 3 Imperial Knights can do all sorts split up and each cause havoc splitting the Collectives attention.

Ok, and it's not like I said otherwise. Still, you have 3 people splitting up on a sphere that's 600 meters across with a compliment of over 10,000 and you expect them to be able to deal with the majority of the drones in just 3 minutes?

Also where would 10,000 drones fit in said Sphere? Last i hear there would be a maximum of 800 to 1000 drones.

I believe it was the Unimatrix Zero episode when the Queen was destroying Borg vessels, she was stating the crew compliment for each ship. When she brought up a sphere, I believe she said the compliment was either 10,000 or 11,000.

Given how Obi-wan and Qui-gonn did against a TF DCS with a complement of 10,000 battledroids i'd be fair to say the Imperial Knights would do very well and there is no way a Drone will ever get close enough to a Knight to inject him with nano-probes..

You'll note I wasn't talking about that. I was addressing the ways the Borg would probably go about this fight with the information we have on them.

If they can't touch them to inject them, then there's nothing wrong with that. I was pointing out that I think they'll be able to do more than just constantly send waves of drones after the Knights. It might not be much, and it might not make much of a difference, but I thought to add it anyways.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Read the thread and do your research. When not active a Borg Drone will be in sleep mode as shown in TNG and later in Voyager. In 3 minutes 3 Imperial Knights can do all sorts split up and each cause havoc splitting the Collectives attention. Also where would 10,000 drones fit in said Sphere? Last i hear there would be a maximum of 800 to 1000 drones. Given how Obi-wan and Qui-gonn did against a TF DCS with a complement of 10,000 battledroids i'd be fair to say the Imperial Knights would do very well and there is no way a Drone will ever get close enough to a Knight to inject him with nano-probes..

According to numerous websites, the crew of a Borg Sphere is 11,000 drones, or there abouts. I'm somewhat skeptical about this, as they're stared to only be about 600metres in diameter, but I'm not bothered either way. 11,000 slow moving, shambling retards versus three Imperial Knights is like 11,000 ants against... three super-fast, super-powerful, super-agile ants with boosted stamina that have lightsabers and can crush the other ants psychokineticly...

I'm not good with analogies.

[Jark]

I'm not good with analogies.

You can say that again!


Anyways, I don't see the Borg taking this by just sending waves of drones after the Knights. Unless they can come up with some creative ways of containing them with force fields or transporting them without the lightsabers, I'm not sure what else they could do, just because I don't know of any circumstance when we would've seen them try something more drastic.

By the way, what would be likely to happen if a lightsaber came in contact with a standard hallway forcefield? Althought I suppose even if they did somehow block them, the Force powers would still work just fine, right?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

By the way, what would be likely to happen if a lightsaber came in contact with a standard hallway forcefield? Althought I suppose even if they did somehow block them, the Force powers would still work just fine, right?

I suppose it would depend on the strength of the forcefield. In Trek, any shield can be taken down by being exposed to enough of a beating. Depending on how much power was devoted to the shield, it could be taken down by a blow from a lightsaber, or it could withstand blows from one indefinately. I'm not entirey certain to be honest. But yes, there's no concievable way that the forcefield could posibly defend against Force Powers.

[Lord Pounder]

The options for Borg drones when attackers are around aren't either sleep or engage intruder. We've seen many times that Borg drones are always walking around the ship, performing whatever task they're supposed to perform. So it's not like all the drones except a select few will just be sitting around regenerating.

I'll state again the vast majority of Drones will be in sleep mode when no actively performing ship functions this is shown in TNG and later in Voyager, 11,000 drones shambeling arround a 600 meter suare sphere isn't going to leave a lot of room. When attacked the Collective launches a few drones to analyse and assimilate the threat rinse and repeat as needed. again this is shown as the typical response in TNG and Voyager, which is a very good reason they where fucked against species 90210, they couldn't adapt.

Anyways, I don't see the Borg taking this by just sending waves of drones after the Knights.

The Borg have never been shown to have any other responce.

Unless they can come up with some creative ways of containing them with force fields or transporting them without the lightsabers, I'm not sure what else they could do, just because I don't know of any circumstance when we would've seen them try something more drastic.

I imagine a Structural Intergrity Field or Security Force Field would react much like the field on Mauls Lightsaber in the Theed powerplant. However Star Trek Universe FF and SIF's have been shown to only cover open area's it'd be a simple matter to cunt around the bulkhead or use TK to destroy the emmitter.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I think Jark's stupidity can be easily stopped by, 'Where the fuck is there mention of the Borg Queen?' So far the only time I've ever heard of them blowing up a ship is because they were spreading a virus, and the queen was personally ordering it.

[Jark]

I'll state again the vast majority of Drones will be in sleep mode when no actively performing ship functions this is shown in TNG and later in Voyager, 11,000 drones shambeling arround a 600 meter suare sphere isn't going to leave a lot of room. When attacked the Collective launches a few drones to analyse and assimilate the threat rinse and repeat as needed. again this is shown as the typical response in TNG and Voyager, which is a very good reason they where fucked against species 90210, they couldn't adapt.

We don't know the percentage of drones who would be active or regenerating at any given time, since we've only ever seen small sections of Borg ships.

As for them launching a few drones, of course that's their initial plan when confronting a threat. It's just that we don't know what, if any steps they might take AFTER that, since the initial wave is usually either enough, or the target manages to make an escape after the initial wave, or the Collective decides to spare them for various reasons. I can't recall any instances when circumstances actually went beyond the initial wave.

As for 8472, the only time we saw 8472 on a Borg ship was after it was blown to hell and it was only a chunk of a cube remaining. Also, as I noted earlier, traditional forms of dealing with intruders that we know the Borg use don't seem to work on 8472. Drones injecting them with nanoprobes doesn't work. Forcefields don't work. Transporters have a difficult time locking onto them. I think there was even evidence of a drone trying to shoot 8472 in that episode, if I'm not mistaken.

In other words, we don't know how the Borg tried to deal with 8472 on a healthy ship, or even if 8472 ever boarded a Borg ship prior to blowing it up.

The Borg have never been shown to have any other responce.

Well there are the additional bits like erecting force fields, plus we've seen them transport targets to assimilation chambers.

My point, though, is that we've never had an instance, AFAIK, where events actually went past the initial wave of drones on a healthy ship. If you know of any, then by all means please point them out.

I imagine a Structural Intergrity Field or Security Force Field would react much like the field on Mauls Lightsaber in the Theed powerplant. However Star Trek Universe FF and SIF's have been shown to only cover open area's it'd be a simple matter to cunt around the bulkhead or use TK to destroy the emmitter.

Cool.

[Jark]

I think Jark's stupidity can be easily stopped by, 'Where the fuck is there mention of the Borg Queen?' So far the only time I've ever heard of them blowing up a ship is because they were spreading a virus, and the queen was personally ordering it.

You do realize I only mentioned that incident because that's where we get a figure for the crew compliment of a Borg Sphere, right?

I never said they'd be self-destructing the ship.