Smallest ship that could destroy the Federation?

[Starglider]

The challenge: destroy all major population and industrial centres on all Federation member planets (including Earth), using only a single ship. A single-shot wormhole generator will be used to insert your ship into the target galaxy and hopefully retrieve it after the mission has been completed. Minimising the size of the ship is highly desirable as the energy required to create the temporary wormhole starts extremely high and increases dramatically with the volume of the ship sent; choose the smallest ship with a reasonably high chance of completing the mission. Minimal intel is available prior to the insertion; a map of the UFP and the rough description of their ships and technology, but nothing more.

All ships are assumed to come loaded with their maximum fighter and troop complements. The first dozen planets should be fairly easy; hyperspace in, destroy token defences, turbolaser barrage all civilised areas, move on. The final stages will be the hardest, as Starfleet will concentrate around the major targets. It may be worth taking the time to track down and pick off high-value ships (Sovereigns, Galaxies etc) before Starfleet knows what's going on, to prevent them being available to defend the last few core worlds.

Based on the sim I've been working on, it looks like even a very generous interpretation of the canon requires a good chunk of Starfleet (a few thousand ships) to defeat a single FTL-less ISD, so with decent tactics I'd say a single Acclamator should be able to do this without too much trouble. Anything smaller is getting speculative mainly because I'm not sure how good Federation planetary defences are (though what we saw of Earth's in 'The Best of Both Worlds' and 'Paradise Lost' was not exactly impressive).

Bonus questions: minimum ship required to take the AQ powers and Dominion if they unite against you? Minimum ship size required to completely destroy the Borg?

[Aaron]

You could concievably do this without ever engaging a SF vessel. Just jump to outlying systems, fire off a few shots and then they will call for help. Rinse and repeat until the core systems are empty of ships. Then jump to the core systems and lay waste to the planets. The slow speed of warp drive means that the SF task forces and individual ships will still be in transist to the original distressed worlds while you are attacking both the other outer colonies and the core worlds of the Federation.

[Jark]

Wouldn't this primarily depend on how much fuel the ship in question has and the length of time it'd take to complete the task? Do all the ships in the poll have enough fuel to power their engines, shields and weapons (and anything else they may require) to do all of this?

[Starglider]

You could concievably do this without ever engaging a SF vessel. Just jump to outlying systems, fire off a few shots and then they will call for help. Rinse and repeat until the core systems are empty of ships.

Starfleet aren't exactly strategic geniuses, but they're not that pathetic. You could draw off a sizable proportion of their ships that way, but after you've hit a few colonies they'll eventually work out that something really bad is happening, and pull back all available ships from patrol and science missions to defend core worlds. They will presumably assume multiple aggressors at first, but eventually they will realise that it's a single attacker has some sort of super-transwarp drive. This is happening around the time of Nemesis so they have the benefit of whatever they learned from the Dominion war.

[Aaron]

Starfleet aren't exactly strategic geniuses, but they're not that pathetic. You could draw off a sizable proportion of their ships that way, but after you've hit a few colonies they'll eventually work out that something really bad is happening, and pull back all available ships from patrol and science missions to defend core worlds. They will presumably assume multiple aggressors at first, but eventually they will realise that it's a single attacker has some sort of super-transwarp drive. This is happening around the time of Nemesis so they have the benefit of whatever they learned from the Dominion war.

And what do you think the outer colonies are going to do when they don't recieve help? The Federation Council is going to look weak and ineffectual as a result and that may cost them membership. Either way it's going to bring about an end to the Federation. Whether you destroy it by direct action or political manuvering as a result of direct action, you achieve the same result.

[Starglider]

Wouldn't this primarily depend on how much fuel the ship in question has and the length of time it'd take to complete the task? Do all the ships in the poll have enough fuel to power their engines, shields and weapons (and anything else they may require) to do all of this?

The ship comes with its normal fuel and supplies load out plus whatever you can cram in the cargo bays. For example the ICS lists the ISD as having 6 years of consumables; even with heavy use of the weapons and hyperdrive I think that's quite sufficient to sustain the six months or so it would take to toast the UFP. For the smaller ships it may be more of an issue: I'd like to hear whoever voted for Slave-1 to justify their claim. The Imperial ship can of course raid Federation outposts for supplies, but running out of fuel may be a problem.

[Starglider]

Whether you destroy it by direct action or political manuvering as a result of direct action, you achieve the same result.

Quite true, but in this case the emperor has ordered you to 'bomb them back to the stone age' - nothing less is acceptable (though overkill is just fine) and you don't want to be doing a Needa apology.

[Aaron]

Quite true, but in this case the emperor has ordered you to 'bomb them back to the stone age' - nothing less is acceptable (though overkill is just fine) and you don't want to be doing a Needa apology.

Ahh well that's different. For the record I voted Acclamator.

[Starglider]

I'm pretty sure he put this in SW-Vs-ST in order to get a Star Wars answer, otherwise it'd be a walkover for Marnel's police box sized TARDIS.

I was trying to think of some valid SWvST content while keeping the topic simple (well, that and to see if any lurking trektards burst out with 'No! That's not true! That's impossible!'), but other universes are fine. Yes, one replicator would almost certainly screw the Federation over, they did a number on the much more powerful Asgard after all.

To answer my own extended questions, an ISD should suffice to destroy all the AQ powers and the Dominion with intelligent tactics. Against the Borg, I'd take the Executor to be sure: a Sovereign would be overkill though, even if it would speed things up a bit.

[Batman]

The ship comes with its normal fuel and supplies load out plus whatever you can cram in the cargo bays. For example the ICS lists the ISD as having 6 years of consumables; even with heavy use of the weapons and hyperdrive I think that's quite sufficient to sustain the six months or so it would take to toast the UFP.

Why would it take several months to toast a measly 150 planets max? It's not like you even have to BDZ them. Given the Imps have a map of the UFP they don't have to waste time on localising the planets and the actual destruction is unlikely to take more then an hour or three, if that. Travel time is going to be negligible and it's not like the UFP nor any other AQ power can mount anything like a worthwhile defense. This operation should be over well inside a single month.
And why any of the ships on that list other than possibly the Firespray should bother to hunt down Fed vessels is beyond me. Even the CC can go through UFP ships like they aren't there and ALL of them can completely avoid contact if they so desire. About the only problem I see are the Firespray and CC possibly not having the endurance to achieve the task, and the Firespray likely lacks the firepower for vast planetary destruction.
The Nebulon B and up should easily be capable of achieving this mission.

[Batman]

To answer my own extended questions, an ISD should suffice to destroy all the AQ powers and the Dominion with intelligent tactics. Against the Borg, I'd take the Executor to be sure: a Sovereign would be overkill though, even if it would speed things up a bit.

A dreadnought would likely be overkill. The Borg's resilience/firepower is close enough to AQ powers that double figure numbers of ships can take out a cube. Given the firepower discrepancy between AQ powers and Wars warships Borg cubes are single shot kills for Wars capital ships just as AQ vessels are (except they may have to break out the MTLs for a change).

[Balrog]

Dreadnaught; with the Neb-B there's still the chance of the ST powers somehow defeating it. With a dread though, there's an absolute guarantee it'll win.

[Feil]

There's only so much fuel a small ship can carry. A CR90 could do the job if you gave it unlimited fuel and enough time, but eventually you just run out of the energy needed to destroy things. I'd say an ISD is the minimum you'd need to accomplish this with brute force. If we were just destroying Starfleet, a CR90 would surely suffice.

[Batman]

Oh, and voted dreadnought because of the endurance issue. Both the CC and Nebulon B should have the firepower to do it.

[Starglider]

Given the firepower discrepancy between AQ powers and Wars warships Borg cubes are single shot kills for Wars capital ships just as AQ vessels are (except they may have to break out the MTLs for a change).

Granted, but it's much harder to estimate how many ships the Borg have, and if I can't do it from ST canon I'm assuming the Imperials won't have a good prior estimate either. The worst case scenario is the Borg clustering all their remaining ships to defend the 'primary unicomplex', and having to go in and take them all out at once, while cubes rush at your ship from all sides (the Borg aren't likely to try anything more sophisticated). I suspect that tens of thousands of cubes could overwhelm a lone ISD pretty quickly, so quickly in fact that hit-and-run tactics to whittle away the borg fleet might not work. In practice the borg may not be able to get a good enough firing solution on an ISD to get enough hits in even with those odds, but given limited prior intelligence I'd play it safe and take an SSD. Park the Executor in the middle of the unicomplex and it won't be a fight - the only question will be how many seconds the massacre will take.

[Master_Baerne]

I'd like to hear whoever voted for Slave-1 to justify their claim. The Imperial ship can of course raid Federation outposts for supplies, but running out of fuel may be a problem.

I didn't really think about fuel and whatnot, but judging from the insanely high power of the seismic charge, and the SW vrs ST in Five Minutes page on the main site, Slave 1 could zip around the Sol system, launching seismic charges at Earth whenever it had the chance. Since Earth is the capital of the Federation, it's destruction would bring about the end thereof, yes?

[Batman]

Given the firepower discrepancy between AQ powers and Wars warships Borg cubes are single shot kills for Wars capital ships just as AQ vessels are (except they may have to break out the MTLs for a change).

Granted, but it's much harder to estimate how many ships the Borg have, and if I can't do it from ST canon I'm assuming the Imperials won't have a good prior estimate either.

Fair enough.

The worst case scenario is the Borg clustering all their remaining ships to defend the 'primary unicomplex', and having to go in and take them all out at once, while cubes rush at your ship from all sides (the Borg aren't likely to try anything more sophisticated). I suspect that tens of thousands of cubes could overwhelm a lone ISD pretty quickly, so quickly in fact that hit-and-run tactics to whittle away the borg fleet might not work.

No way in hell. Not only can the ISD take them out from way outside their displayed weapon range at its leisure, depending on the resilience of Borg defenses using its LTLs, but given that a single Accie MTL bolt is the equivalent of 3125 TM photorps and about 100000 to 400000 canon ones even ignoring PTs are mostly omnidirectional, as the Borg NEVER dish out anywhere NEAR that kind of damage I doubt they can so much as dent the ISD.
But even if they are a danger, so what? It's not like the Imperials have to get anywhere near Borg weapon range. Realpace a couple lightminutes out, open up on the unicomplex, and leave. It's not like the bloody thing is going anywhere. If the Space Zombies actually manage to interpose enough Cubes to stop the TL bolts (fat chance) and/ or whatever number of volleys you got off doesn't do the job, repeat as needed.

In practice the borg may not be able to get a good enough firing solution on an ISD to get enough hits in even with those odds, but given limited prior intelligence I'd play it safe and take an SSD.

Depends on how limited the intelligence is I'd say. The very fact that the AQ powers still exist strongly hints at the Borg not being all that more powerful than the AQ powers (compared to the Imps), at least on a ship-for-ship basis.

Park the Executor in the middle of the unicomplex and it won't be a fight - the only question will be how many seconds the massacre will take.

Park any Wars capital ship dreadnought (if that) and up there and it won't be a fight.

[Starglider]

Slave 1 could zip around the Sol system, launching seismic charges at Earth whenever it had the chance.

I confess that I'm in the habit of using sensible upper limits for Trek capabilities, and sensible lower limits for Imperial capabilities, simply to make the debate more interesting (and to block off any pro-Trek weasel arguments). If I was using either upper limits for both, or lower limits for both, I'd pick the Corvette for the Federation and probably the Nebulon-B for the Borg.

Since Earth is the capital of the Federation, it's destruction would bring about the end thereof, yes?

If Washington DC was hit by a 1 megaton bomb, would that destroy the United States? Regardless, that's not the requirement in the OP, and the Firespray doesn't carry enough missiles or seismic charges to hit every city on one planet never mind multiple planets, and there's no way to replenish them in this scenario. Even if I was being fairly harsh to Trek, I think Starfleet would eventually be able to kill one patrol ship (though with heavy losses ).

[Feil]

I didn't really think

Apparently, you also didn't read the opening post.

destroy all major population and industrial centres on all Federation member planets

indicates a good deal more than leveling San Fransisco, don't you think?

[Batman]

I'd like to hear whoever voted for Slave-1 to justify their claim. The Imperial ship can of course raid Federation outposts for supplies, but running out of fuel may be a problem.

I didn't really think about fuel and whatnot, but judging from the insanely high power of the seismic charge,

If memory serves those were single-figure GT. Definitely beyond anything the AQ forces have but you still need quite a few of them to lay waste to an entire planet, leave alone a score of them, and Slave I has decidedly limited room to store them.

and the SW vrs ST in Five Minutes page on the main site, Slave 1 could zip around the Sol system, launching seismic charges at Earth whenever it had the chance. Since Earth is the capital of the Federation, it's destruction would bring about the end thereof, yes?

Not only not a given but NOT the mission described in the OP.

The challenge: destroy all major population and industrial centres on all Federation member planets (including Earth)

That's an awful lot of seismic charges.

[Starglider]

But even if they are a danger, so what? It's not like the Imperials have to get anywhere near Borg weapon range. Realpace a couple lightminutes out, open up on the unicomplex, and leave. It's not like the bloody thing is going anywhere.

That would indeed work fine if the turbolaser bolts maintain their effectiveness over several lightminutes. The borg might be able to detect them incoming, but if they scatter to avoid them their facilities are toast and their cubes can be picked off individually. I'm not aware of any evidence that turbolasers work at those ranges though; if there's an example that they do from the EU I'd appreciate it if you pointed it out. Looking at First Contact and Best of Both Worlds, a stationary Federation fleet assembles in the projected path of a Borg cube: we don't know how many ships if any the Borg vessels manage to destroy before they get inside Federation weapon range. But presumably their effective range can't be much better than the Fed ships, otherwise they would've destroyed those fleets well before they even had a chance to shoot back. So actually you're right; even using conservative (light-second) TL ranges, if the Borg ships bunch up the Imperial ship could fly around on the edge of the swarm spamming TL fire into it, and there's really nothing they can do about it. Try and attack the Imp ship and it hyperdrives away. Dodge the shots and they lose their installations and get picked off. Guess I still hadn't quite purged my last shreds of respect for the Borg.

The very fact that the AQ powers still exist strongly hints at the Borg not being all that more powerful than the AQ powers (compared to the Imps), at least on a ship-for-ship basis.

Well, they may be surrounded by DQ races that outclass the AQ powers (e.g. the Voth, the Hirogen), but Voyager set pretty strict limits on how powerful those races could be (along with generally nerfing the Borg).

[Noble Ire]

That's an awful lot of seismic charges.

The Slave One had a standard loadout of seven of the devices, and I'd hardly call it an ordinary Firespray (indeed, ordinary Firesprays are police vehicles, probably less heavily armed than an X-Wing, and certainly lacking highly illegal armament). Even using that figure, the vessel could lay waste to a single, relatively small colony world. Its other weapons would allow it to go toe to toe with a few Starfleet warships and easily conduct supply raids, but it isn't close to powerful enough to meet the stated goal (even putting aside the issue of finite consumables like hypermatter and tibanna).

I'd assign an Imperial-class Star Destroyer for the mission. Lighter ships might pack the requisite firepower, but I'm not sure if they could be fully expected to hold up for such a rigorous campaign.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Fuel economy and hyperdrive range severely limit the smaller ships.

[Noble Ire]

I'm not aware of any evidence that turbolasers work at those ranges though; if there's an example that they do from the EU I'd appreciate it if you pointed it out.

During the NJO, the Enemy Lines duology involves the brief bombardment of a Yuuzhan Vong worldship in orbit around Coruscant by a New Republic starcrusier on the edge of its solar system. The target was not a moving one, and it is probable that such an attack could not be carried out on an alerted, operation starship, but it does indicate that heavy turbolasers have quite an incredible range.

[Batman]

But even if they are a danger, so what? It's not like the Imperials have to get anywhere near Borg weapon range. Realpace a couple lightminutes out, open up on the unicomplex, and leave. It's not like the bloody thing is going anywhere.

That would indeed work fine if the turbolaser bolts maintain their effectiveness over several lightminutes.

Try lighthours.

The borg might be able to detect them incoming, but if they scatter to avoid them their facilities are toast and their cubes can be picked off individually. I'm not aware of any evidence that turbolasers work at those ranges though; if there's an example that they do from the EU I'd appreciate it if you pointed it out.

Lighthour ranges in NJO. I can't recall the novel title right now (it was a two-parter but that's it) but a Vong worldship was successfully fired upon by an ISD from outside the system.

Looking at First Contact and Best of Both Worlds, a stationary Federation fleet assembles in the projected path of a Borg cube: we don't know how many ships if any the Borg vessels manage to destroy before they get inside Federation weapon range. But presumably their effective range can't be much better than the Fed ships, otherwise they would've destroyed those fleets well before they even had a chance to shoot back. So actually you're right; even using conservative (light-second) TL ranges, if the Borg ships bunch up the Imperial ship could fly around on the edge of the swarm spamming TL fire into it, and there's really nothing they can do about it.
Try and attack the Imp ship and it hyperdrives away.

At best.

Dodge the shots

assuming they can do that to begin with. Just because they can see the shot coming doesn't mean they can get out of the way in time.

and they lose their installations and get picked off. Guess I still hadn't quite purged my last shreds of respect for the Borg.

I shall refrain from elaborating on how I feel about the Borg for the time being. Suffice to say that my calling them the Space Zombies would probably be construed a dire insult by zombies everywhere.

The very fact that the AQ powers still exist strongly hints at the Borg not being all that more powerful than the AQ powers (compared to the Imps), at least on a ship-for-ship basis.

Well, they may be surrounded by DQ races that outclass the AQ powers (e.g. the Voth, the Hirogen), but Voyager set pretty strict limits on how powerful those races could be (along with generally nerfing the Borg).

There's a reason I put in the 'at least on a ship-for-ship basis' qualifier.
WHATEVER the reason the Borg didn't conquer the AQ, their naval technology clearly marks them as an utter nonthreat to the Imperials.