Is calling Native Americans "Indians" racist?

[Eris]

In a small town like mine this is just generally known. There was a kid that got jumped in the park last month by a Native American and all of his siblings and cousins. Many of them had tire irons and the kid got his skull smashed open like a pinata. They don't put it in the paper and they don't put it in the police report. There are Native American blocks that the cops won't drive into. We also have a separate police force because my town is on tribal land and the tribe in question has it's own police force... which doesn't help much. The kid is in a coma and may not come out. He called the main agressor's sister a "squaw" and the whole High School knows (My mother is a teacher and my sister is a student). I recall this happening often. I realize it is aweful and believe me when I say that my family has taken things to the police and the school administration only to be shut up while the whole thing is "forgotten". Obviously this incident is not the standard "Indian" name usage. However, they make it known they don't like it and pick fights over it. As far as outside the town, you should look into the Native American Rights lobbyists in Oklahoma. They speak at the capitol about this issue (and others) CONSTANTLY. They even go to schools around the state and talk about the right words to use, etc.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. First, you just changed your claim. To compare calling someone a squaw to calling someone an Indian is at very best greviously careless, and at worst outright maliciously deceptive. Given that you're arguing that they take offense at the term Indian, that's important. I'm not saying, nor I think is anyone else in the thread, that the term squaw could be considered offensive. If you're going to criticise me, do it on legitimate grounds.

Second, I asked for a source, and you couldn't even bring up wikipedia. "Everyone knows" is not a valid source in debate. There is after all someone who doesn't know: me. And, I gather, a few other people around in this thread alone. If someone was attacked with a tire iron to the point of being put in a coma, I have a very difficult time believing it went wholly unreported. If this is true you have a moral obligation to get the authorities involved, be it the local police, the FBI, or whomever. If worse comes to worse, go to the national media. They love sensationalist stuff like this. So, either you're a liar or a cretin. Take your pick. In the meantime, I'm going to discount your claims till I see some evidence.

As far as the Oklahoma lobby goes: it's not my responsibility to research your argument for you. Link me something and I'll consider it.

[scythewielder]

While inaccurate, I can see that it's a term that has remained in legitimate historical and even official use in some circles.

I personally prefer to avoid using the word, on an individual basis, but don't see the need to make a fuss over it per se. As others have indicated, I'd say that the implications of the word "Indian" depend entirely on context.

Although this might stray slightly from the main subject, I think the same is mostly true of its direct equivalents in other languages such as the Spanish word "Indio". Some people have no problems saying that they consider themselves proud descendants of the "Indios" in certain areas of Latin America.

You still can, of course, give the word a negative connotation. Context is the key, and not the race of whoever is using it per se. It's the intent, and its manifestations through phrasing, grammar and tone, that may indicate a racial or even just social slur.

For example, in some Latin American countries (Colombia being one), the phrase "you are an Indian" ("tú eres un Indio") directly implies that a person has poor taste, education or manners regardless of his/her racial background. I'd imagine that the origin of this use does seem linked to the racial stereotype of the Natives being generally stupid, lazy and malicious.

Yet even if the word were to be un/officially banned as "too politically incorrect" merely due to this, that wouldn't erase the social and racial discrimination that comes with it. The sickness is not in the bed sheets, to use a (translated) Spanish expression (no, this probably shouldn't be interpreted as a remark about the infamous "smallpox blankets" ).

[General Zod]

You still can, of course, give the word a negative connotation. Context is the key, and not the race of whoever is using it per se. It's the intent, and its manifestations through phrasing, grammar and tone, that may indicate a racial or even just social slur.

For example, in some Latin American countries (Colombia being one), the phrase "you are an Indian" ("tú eres un Indio") directly implies that a person has poor taste, education or manners regardless of his/her racial background. I'd imagine that the origin of this use does seem linked to the racial stereotype of the Natives being generally stupid, lazy and malicious.

I don't see how that's any different than calling something, say, Jewish as a slur, in which case you're mocking the people who actually have the name for a certain attribute. Either way it doesn't make the conventional use a slur in any fashion.

[scythewielder]

I don't see how that's any different than calling something, say, Jewish as a slur, in which case you're mocking the people who actually have the name for a certain attribute. Either way it doesn't make the conventional use a slur in any fashion.

Yes, there are many examples of how certain attributes have been stereotypically attributed to a given race or set of people, so I agree it's pretty much the same thing.

At the end of the day, the conventional use of both words remains perfectly valid, when and if there is no discernible hostile/mocking intent behind them.

[Spyder]

Quite frankly, I'd prefer if so many people didn't feel it necessary to ask such questions, but if they're going to, I wish they'd at least do it without using erroneous terms.

Navite American is an erroneous term if you're not going to include everyone that wasn't an immigrant.

[Broomstick]

Natives using the word doesn't mean anything.
A lot of black teenagers call each other "niggers".

Yeah, actually I think it DOES mean something. Use of slurs by a member of the group the slur refers to can be a sign of self-hatred as easily as it could be an attempt to "take back" a term or be meaningless. Certainly, this particular racial slur is used as insult among Americans of African descent at least part of the time.

Regardless, I personally prefer Mohawk or Iroquois, but I realize that it's unreasonable for people to be able to recognize what tribe/nation a native, or aboriginal if you will, is from just by looking at him.

I've encountered a number of folks to whom "Native American" might apply who have expressed the opinion that "Indian" is no more or less offensive than "Native American" because the proper term for them is their tribal name - but as you point out, it's unreasonable to ask people to divine a person's tribal affinity based solely on looks.

I've known folks who prefered "Native American" and others who preferred (or at least used more often "Indian". I think there is more than one opinion about this among those to whom the terms apply.

Context and intention are important - any ethnic term or label can become insulting in a particular context or when delivered in an insulting manner. Likewise, even the most intense slur can have comedic or other effects other than pure insult - as various comedians have demonstrated. Of course, a little of that goes a long way, and there is some risk in the attempt.

Perhaps calling it a racial slur is going a bit far. I don't think most people, at least nowadays, have malicious intent when they use the word. But I cringe every time someone calls me that, and feel the need to correct them, because it is in error.

There is nothing wrong with expressing a preference for one term over another.

It has nothing to do with hatred of East Indians. How would white people like it if I started calling them Europeans?

Wouldn't bother me one bit. In fact, I've occassionally described myself as a Euro-American. It would be neither more nor less offensive than "caucasian" or "white". I am of European descent, and in my case it's obvious by taking one look at me. It is silly to deny it or to insist that the label should be changed. But then, my label was not imposed by a conquering horde from another continent. Again, context can be a factor.

Then again, maybe I'm just anal.

Perhaps a bit. But that's just my opinion

[haas mark]

I've been thinking about this one for a while, and it seems to me like calling Native Americans "Indian" is no better than any other racial slur.

We're not Indians and we never were, despite what some moron who had the navigational skills of a blind invalid thought.

Anyone else have a different take on this?

As one, I prefer to be called American Indian over Native American. Strictly because anyone born in the Americas is technically a native American. But that's a whole different topic.

Now, as for it being racially slurrific, no, it's not. Calling us mestizos, however, would be, as that's what that originally was - a racial slur. But you also have to consider, in other languages, they still call American Indians "Indians" in some form or another. Take Spanish, for example. IIRC, the word is "indio."

Regardless, though, you cannot say that being called Indian is a racial slur, because it is even used on federal forms and bureaus (e.g., the Bureau of Indian Affairs).

[haas mark]

Regardless, I personally prefer Mohawk or Iroquois, but I realize that it's unreasonable for people to be able to recognize what tribe/nation a native, or aboriginal if you will, is from just by looking at him.

If you really wanted to go there, and be specific about tribes, I'd just be a pain in the ass. Hopi/San Juan Pueblo (aka Ohkay Owingeh). But even then, you could still divide that up into what language is spoken, as far as the pueblo tribes in NM (Tewa, Tiwa, Towa). But further, you also have the problem of the transplanted tribes (e.g., Cherokee).

Unfortunately, in Real India, the commonly used term for Indigenous or Aboriginal Americans (the two most precise nouns for them) is "Red Indian", which pretty much is racist.

Yes and no. Granted, there's not much in the way they can say outside of American Indian, but you also have to consider - American Indians are also called "Redskins." And why? Because there is generally some red pigmentation in American Indians' skin. So it's not entirely racist.

I'm just tired of people seeing me, and asking me if I'm an "Indian" because I have Mohican facial features.

...And? I have to put up with it because of the Hopi and Pueblo facial features. Except, of course, the usual question is "where are you from?" because of the high population of Indians here in NM, and all the 13(?) pueblos out here. Seriously, though, fuck you and get the fuck over it.

We also have a separate police force because my town is on tribal land and the tribe in question has it's own police force... which doesn't help much.

ALL tribal lands have their own police force. ALL tribal lands have their OWN forms of government.

The kid is in a coma and may not come out. He called the main agressor's sister a "squaw" and the whole High School knows (My mother is a teacher and my sister is a student).

And this doesn't come off to you as stupid in any way shape or form?

However, they make it known they don't like it and pick fights over it. As far as outside the town, you should look into the Native American Rights lobbyists in Oklahoma.

In a way, I have to kind of defend them. Having lived in Oklahoma, I know that the state of affairs has never been the best regarding Indians. They are constantly looked down upon by nearly everyone else. Granted, there are things I disagree with later in that paragraph...

In my case, as a Méxican I must tell you that I have absolutely no problem by been called that, because after all that's what I am. Words like latin or hispanic bother me a little mostly because they are stereotypes but not because they are insultating in any way (I mean, I can live with them, they're no big deal, but I feel a little stereotyped when someone uses them. However they describe accurately enough my ethnic origin). I believe it is the same when the word "Indian" is used... it is not meant to be an insult at all.

I think the word "Hispanic" more or less comes from the Spanish word for Spain - España. "Latino" is because of the whole Latin America thing (Mexico down to Panamá).

[ANGELUS]

I think the word "Hispanic" more or less comes from the Spanish word for Spain - España. "Latino" is because of the whole Latin America thing (Mexico down to Panamá).

That is correct. However, here most of Latin América is also refered to as Hispano América because the language in most countries is spanish. That's what I meant by saying it was accurate enough.

[BrandonMustang]

Apparently you missed this part:

Obviously this incident is not the standard "Indian" name usage. However, they make it known they don't like it and pick fights over it.

I wasn't trying to make an argument so much as tell you that it's frowned upon here. Obviously, I wanted to show you how extreme the racism problem was around here and that's why I chose that example. I should have stayed more on-topic. This problem is extreme and several students have already been hurt badly this year. One student died from it my Senior year (about 3 years ago) and many have been seriously injured since.

Here is a link to an article by a woman (from Oregon) who has many relatives in my town and has spoken at my old High School and the capital:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... ebate.html

I'll call an old teacher (a Native American activist) and get you some more.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps if the people on the reservations don't like the term "Indian", they would prefer the more accurate term "Alcoholic"

It's a joke, don't get your panties in a knot

[BrandonMustang]

Argh, I didn't mean to post that yet. I also wanted to say I KNOW all tribal land is sovreign and I KNOW about the state of affairs in Oklahoma. I am on the lists. I have cards for the Cherokee and Apache tribes. I hate the way things are here on BOTH sides and I have lobbied at the capital to keep "Indians" from being used in school mascots, to change the name "Bureau of Indian Affairs", etc. I played High School for the Tecumseh Savages. That's our mascot. The Savage. That is pitiful, right? I am NOT dogging on the Native Americans... I are one.

I don't beat up people that call me Indian (I am predominantly caucasian but have some relatives that aren't) but it happens a lot.

[BrandonMustang]

Perhaps if the people on the reservations don't like the term "Indian", they would prefer the more accurate term "Alcoholic"

It's a joke, don't get your panties in a knot

You bring the Fire-water. I'll get you some nice Wampum.

[Dillon]

Thanks for all the input people. I've been in a somewhat reflective state for the last day or so, and have decided that I've been getting far too emotionally involved when taking positions on Indian affairs in general in the last while (yes, I used the word! ), and need to take a step back and try to think more objectively concerning these issues.

Even if you Whities did steal our system of government without giving us credit.

[Broomstick]

Do natives who have left the reservations still call themselves natives? Or are they just Americans now? How long is this ethnic group going to cling to the past?

Well, hell with it, Mike, my husband's Scottish ancestor came over in 1746 and they STILL call themselves "Scots"... it's not just the tribal-been-here-for-ten-thousand-years types who persist in identifying with past ancestors.

The question is whether or not ethnic identification is holding back and individual or group. I mean, there's no where you came from, and then there's refusing to live in the modern world and be your own self.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Perhaps if the people on the reservations don't like the term "Indian", they would prefer the more accurate term "Alcoholic"

It's a joke, don't get your panties in a knot

You know what FICA stands for on American pay stubs right?

Fund for Indian Consumption of Alcohol.

[Setesh]

I don't think "Indian" amounts to a racial slur, but it's about as accurate as "Asian".

And I never have a problem with someone calling me "Asian" even though I've never been to Asia. There comes a point when you have to wonder why people are so obsessed with their ethnicity being identified with their preferred terminology.

Because our governments have spent a lot of time and money on the 'PC' approach to keep us to divided to do anything about what dickheads they are. All those (insert) history months, and 'sensitivity' lectures they push through schools are entirly to accentuate the differences between races, make us take 'pride' in our own and feel like fine 'tolerant' people for 'accepting' that other races are differant. We are a house divided, and we are at the mercy of those that divided us because the vast majority of the population won't admit that they are just a little racist (at best) and get over it.

[ArmorPierce]

As one, I prefer to be called American Indian over Native American. Strictly because anyone born in the Americas is technically a native American. But that's a whole different topic.

Now, as for it being racially slurrific, no, it's not. Calling us mestizos, however, would be, as that's what that originally was - a racial slur. But you also have to consider, in other languages, they still call American Indians "Indians" in some form or another. Take Spanish, for example. IIRC, the word is "indio."

Maybe in America it would be a slur, in Spanish speaking countries it is not. It simply means mixed.

[haas mark]

As one, I prefer to be called American Indian over Native American. Strictly because anyone born in the Americas is technically a native American. But that's a whole different topic.

Now, as for it being racially slurrific, no, it's not. Calling us mestizos, however, would be, as that's what that originally was - a racial slur. But you also have to consider, in other languages, they still call American Indians "Indians" in some form or another. Take Spanish, for example. IIRC, the word is "indio."

Maybe in America it would be a slur, in Spanish speaking countries it is not. It simply means mixed.

You have a point.