God Is Not Great - Religion Poisons Everything

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God Is Not Great - Religion Poisons Everything

Post by Kettch »

Christopher Hitchens is back. He of the "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice " has posted an exerpt on Slate that I think this crew would enjoy. God Is Not Great

Highlight that I liked:
While some religious apology is magnificent in its limited way—one might cite Pascal—and some of it is dreary and absurd—here one cannot avoid naming C. S. Lewis—both styles have something in common, namely the appalling load of strain that they have to bear. How much effort it takes to affirm the incredible! The Aztecs had to tear open a human chest cavity every day just to make sure that the sun would rise. Monotheists are supposed to pester their deity more times than that, perhaps, lest he be deaf. How much vanity must be concealed—not too effectively at that—in order to pretend that one is the personal object of a divine plan? How much self-respect must be sacrificed in order that one may squirm continually in an awareness of one's own sin? How many needless assumptions must be made, and how much contortion is required, to receive every new insight of science and manipulate it so as to "fit" with the revealed words of ancient man-made deities? How many saints and miracles and councils and conclaves are required in order first to be able to establish a dogma and then—after infinite pain and loss and absurdity and cruelty—to be forced to rescind one of those dogmas? God did not create man in his own image. Evidently, it was the other way about, which is the painless explanation for the profusion of gods and religions, and the fratricide both between and among faiths, that we see all about us and that has so retarded the development of civilization.
The argument with faith is the foundation and origin of all arguments, because it is the beginning—but not the end—of all arguments about philosophy, science, history, and human nature. It is also the beginning—but by no means the end—of all disputes about the good life and the just city. Religious faith is, precisely because we are still-evolving creatures, ineradicable. It will never die out, or at least not until we get over our fear of death, and of the dark, and of the unknown, and of each other. For this reason, I would not prohibit it even if I thought I could. Very generous of me, you may say. But will the religious grant me the same indulgence? I ask because there is a real and serious difference between me and my religious friends, and the real and serious friends are sufficiently honest to admit it. I would be quite content to go to their children's bar mitzvahs, to marvel at their Gothic cathedrals, to "respect" their belief that the Koran was dictated, though exclusively in Arabic, to an illiterate merchant, or to interest myself in Wicca and Hindu and Jain consolations. And as it happens, I will continue to do this without insisting on the polite reciprocal condition—which is that they in turn leave me alone. But this, religion is ultimately incapable of doing. As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything.
Page 2: Was Muhammad Epileptic?
It is said by some Muslim authorities that during the first caliphate of Abu Bakr, immediately after Muhammad's death, concern arose that his orally transmitted words might be forgotten. So many Muslim soldiers had been killed in battle that the number who had the Koran safely lodged in their memories had become alarmingly small. It was therefore decided to assemble every living witness, together with "pieces of paper, stones, palm leaves, shoulder-blades, ribs and bits of leather" on which sayings had been scribbled, and give them to Zaid ibn Thabit, one of the Prophet's former secretaries, for an authoritative collation. Once this had been done, the believers had something like an authorized version.

If true, this would date the Koran to a time fairly close to Muhammad's own life. But we swiftly discover that there is no certainty or agreement about the truth of the story. Some say that it was Ali—the fourth and not the first caliph, and the founder of Shiism—who had the idea. Many others—the Sunni majority—assert that it was Caliph Uthman, who reigned from 644 to 656, who made the finalized decision. Told by one of his generals that soldiers from different provinces were fighting over discrepant accounts of the Koran, Uthman ordered Zaid ibn Thabit to bring together the various texts, unify them, and have them transcribed into one. When this task was complete, Uthman ordered standard copies to be sent to Kufa, Basra, Damascus, and elsewhere, with a master copy retained in Medina. Uthman thus played the canonical role that had been taken, in the standardization and purging and censorship of the Christian Bible, by Irenaeus and by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria. The roll was called, and some texts were declared sacred and inerrant while others became "apocryphal." Outdoing Athanasius, Uthman ordered that all earlier and rival editions be destroyed.
As one might expect, the six authorized collections of hadith, which pile hearsay upon hearsay through the unwinding of the long spool of isnads ("A told B, who had it from C, who learned it from D"), were put together centuries after the events they purport to describe. One of the most famous of the six compilers, Bukhari, died 238 years after the death of Muhammad. Bukhari is deemed unusually reliable and honest by Muslims, and seems to have deserved his reputation in that, of the three hundred thousand attestations he accumulated in a lifetime devoted to the project, he ruled that two hundred thousand of them were entirely valueless and unsupported. Further exclusion of dubious traditions and questionable isnads reduced his grand total to ten thousand hadith. You are free to believe, if you so choose, that out of this formless mass of illiterate and half-remembered witnessing the pious Bukhari, more than two centuries later, managed to select only the pure and undefiled ones that would bear examination.
...It was noticed even by some of his wives that the Prophet was capable of having a "revelation" that happened to suit his short-term needs, and he was sometimes teased about it. We are further told—on no authority that need be believed—that when he experienced revelation in public he would sometimes be gripped by pain and experience loud ringing in his ears. Beads of sweat would burst out on him, even on the chilliest of days. Some heartless Christian critics have suggested that he was an epileptic (though they fail to notice the same symptoms in the seizure experienced by Paul on the road to Damascus), but there is no need for us to speculate in this way. It is enough to rephrase David Hume's unavoidable question. Which is more likely—that a man should be used as a transmitter by god to deliver some already existing revelations, or that he should utter some already existing revelations and believe himself to be, or claim to be, ordered by god to do so?...
Page 3 Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion
n March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers. However, within four years he was back in the local newspapers (all of which one may still read) as the discoverer of the "Book of Mormon."
Mrs. Harris was having none of this, and was already furious with the fecklessness of her husband. She stole the first hundred and sixteen pages and challenged Smith to reproduce them, as presumably—given his power of revelation—he could. (Determined women like this appear far too seldom in the history of religion.) After a very bad few weeks, the ingenious Smith countered with another revelation. He could not replicate the original, which might be in the devil's hands by now and open to a "satanic verses" interpretation. But the all-foreseeing Lord had meanwhile furnished some smaller plates, indeed the very plates of Nephi, which told a fairly similar tale. With infinite labor, the translation was resumed, with new scriveners behind the blanket as occasion demanded, and when it was completed all the original golden plates were transported to heaven, where apparently they remain to this day.
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Post by Singular Intellect »

Some might say these arguements are beating a dead horse because here at SDN we're generally quite familiar with them.

That said, religion is very much still alive so I'd argue we have plenty of "beating" left to do to it.
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Post by Durandal »

Saw Christopher Hitchens on The Daily Show tonight. It was nice to hear him not plugging the Iraq War and actually making sense. But I've always felt that Jon Stewart has a soft spot for religion. He has no qualms with pointing out the Bush administration's bullshit (which is just meant to make everyone feel better), but when it's religion that's meant to comfort people, oh well, then it's okay.
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Post by Flagg »

Good for him, but considering his whoring for the NeoCons I can't take this assclown seriously anymore.
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Post by Rye »

Hitchens is well read, cynical and accurate when it comes to religion, I like his stuff. If he is a 'tard when it comes to politics, that's too bad, but he's still awesome with religion.
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Post by Flagg »

Rye wrote:Hitchens is well read, cynical and accurate when it comes to religion, I like his stuff. If he is a 'tard when it comes to politics, that's too bad, but he's still awesome with religion.
Which makes him all the more a person I can't take seriously since the people he whores himself out for are doing everything possible to push this country into a state of theocracy.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Durandal wrote:Saw Christopher Hitchens on The Daily Show tonight. It was nice to hear him not plugging the Iraq War and actually making sense. But I've always felt that Jon Stewart has a soft spot for religion. He has no qualms with pointing out the Bush administration's bullshit (which is just meant to make everyone feel better), but when it's religion that's meant to comfort people, oh well, then it's okay.
Indeed. It was quite disturbing to see the way he was basically arguing that it's OK to sell something that's totally false or illogical as long as it makes people feel good. Isn't that how America talked itself into the Iraq War?
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Post by Sriad »

Darth Wong wrote:
Durandal wrote:Saw Christopher Hitchens on The Daily Show tonight. It was nice to hear him not plugging the Iraq War and actually making sense. But I've always felt that Jon Stewart has a soft spot for religion. He has no qualms with pointing out the Bush administration's bullshit (which is just meant to make everyone feel better), but when it's religion that's meant to comfort people, oh well, then it's okay.
Indeed. It was quite disturbing to see the way he was basically arguing that it's OK to sell something that's totally false or illogical as long as it makes people feel good. Isn't that how America talked itself into the Iraq War?
They seemed like totally softball questions to me, but that may only be because I've seen them answered so many times on these boards. Hitchens gave an unfortunately writer-ish interview that made him look smart but slow; he might not have been expecting that level of confrontation.

Stewart was much interruptier than normal, also. It's sad to see smart people turn dumb for religion.
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Post by Flagg »

I've never been particularly impressed by Stewarts non-entertainer interviews, so I usually change the channel once he has the guest on. He always lobs softballs, with occasional half-confrontations, and then ridicules them the next day, which seems kind of like something a pussy would do.
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Post by Setesh »

Flagg wrote:I've never been particularly impressed by Stewarts non-entertainer interviews, so I usually change the channel once he has the guest on. He always lobs softballs, with occasional half-confrontations, and then ridicules them the next day, which seems kind of like something a pussy would do.
Actually its because a lot of his guests won't appear without seeing and approving a 'question list' beforehand. You can actually see which ones have the list and which ones didn't want one by how and what Jon asks.
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Post by Flagg »

Setesh wrote:
Flagg wrote:I've never been particularly impressed by Stewarts non-entertainer interviews, so I usually change the channel once he has the guest on. He always lobs softballs, with occasional half-confrontations, and then ridicules them the next day, which seems kind of like something a pussy would do.
Actually its because a lot of his guests won't appear without seeing and approving a 'question list' beforehand. You can actually see which ones have the list and which ones didn't want one by how and what Jon asks.
Then he's just as much of a whore as the people in the media he ridicules.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Flagg wrote:
Setesh wrote:
Flagg wrote:I've never been particularly impressed by Stewarts non-entertainer interviews, so I usually change the channel once he has the guest on. He always lobs softballs, with occasional half-confrontations, and then ridicules them the next day, which seems kind of like something a pussy would do.
Actually its because a lot of his guests won't appear without seeing and approving a 'question list' beforehand. You can actually see which ones have the list and which ones didn't want one by how and what Jon asks.
Then he's just as much of a whore as the people in the media he ridicules.
Are you on fucking drugs? How is a talk-show host a "whore" if he agrees to back off a little? It's not as if he's saying things he doesn't believe to be true, or selling his opinion to the highest bidder. He's just being less aggressive.
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Post by Teleros »

I think the point is that he's trying to be less aggressive in order to get more big names on his show, so he gets better ratings etc. But I'd describe that more as "media-savvy" or something than being a "whore".
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Teleros wrote:I think the point is that he's trying to be less aggressive in order to get more big names on his show, so he gets better ratings etc. But I'd describe that more as "media-savvy" or something than being a "whore".
To me, a media "whore" is someone who actually changes his opinion in order to suit his career goals. John McCain is an excellent example. But simply being less aggressive is a different ball of wax.

Besides, if Jon Stewart refused to give any quarter to right-wing guests, he would never have any. That would be harmful in many ways, not just because he would lose ratings. Right now, like it or not, that show is culturally relevant in a way that not too many other shows are, and if people started getting the idea that it was a left-wing echo chamber, that would end.
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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Setesh wrote: Actually its because a lot of his guests won't appear without seeing and approving a 'question list' beforehand. You can actually see which ones have the list and which ones didn't want one by how and what Jon asks.
Then he's just as much of a whore as the people in the media he ridicules.
Are you on fucking drugs? How is a talk-show host a "whore" if he agrees to back off a little? It's not as if he's saying things he doesn't believe to be true, or selling his opinion to the highest bidder. He's just being less aggressive.
Maybe not a whore, but there's not much fucking integrity there. If you're going to agree to a list of questions beforehand, you sure as hell lose credibility when going after 'real' news outlets for the way they conduct interviews and cover stories.

Being less agressive is one thing, but being less agressive when they're on his show, then ridiculing them the next day is something else entirely. I doubt that if he grilled every rightwing nutjob he had on his show, less rightwing nutjobs be on, because of the fact that he slams them the next day when they can't defend themselves.

I dunno, I just find it distasteful.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Flagg wrote:Maybe not a whore, but there's not much fucking integrity there.
And what, exactly, is your definition of "integrity"?
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Post by Dalton »

Darth Wong wrote:Indeed. It was quite disturbing to see the way he was basically arguing that it's OK to sell something that's totally false or illogical as long as it makes people feel good. Isn't that how America talked itself into the Iraq War?
Religion is not going to go away, ever. The problem though is that it hasn't grown or changed enough with the times. It's still a millennium-BCE mythology carried through to the modern era. Besides, TDS does do its fair share of religious mockery (God Stuff, This Week in God, etc).

Like it or not, religion is still a significant part of American culture, but things are going to - hell, they have to change. Hopefully to something that's more in line with a modern ethos.
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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Flagg wrote:Maybe not a whore, but there's not much fucking integrity there.
And what, exactly, is your definition of "integrity"?
In this instance, honesty. I think it's dishonest to agree to go light on someone when you're face to face with them, then ragging on them the next day.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Flagg wrote:Maybe not a whore, but there's not much fucking integrity there.
And what, exactly, is your definition of "integrity"?
In this instance, honesty. I think it's dishonest to agree to go light on someone when you're face to face with them, then ragging on them the next day.
Why is that dishonest? Is there some deception involved? If anything, it would be dishonest if he failed to rag on him the next day, since his hands were tied during the actual interview so he couldn't be as blunt as he would like to be.
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Post by General Zod »

Dalton wrote: Like it or not, religion is still a significant part of American culture, but things are going to - hell, they have to change. Hopefully to something that's more in line with a modern ethos.
In a way you could argue that it already has. Unfortunately it's gotten us Scientology, and it has gotten stupider.
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Post by Darth Wong »

General Zod wrote:
Dalton wrote:Like it or not, religion is still a significant part of American culture, but things are going to - hell, they have to change. Hopefully to something that's more in line with a modern ethos.
In a way you could argue that it already has. Unfortunately it's gotten us Scientology, and it has gotten stupider.
Exactly how is Scientology any dumber than Christianity?
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Post by General Zod »

Darth Wong wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Dalton wrote:Like it or not, religion is still a significant part of American culture, but things are going to - hell, they have to change. Hopefully to something that's more in line with a modern ethos.
In a way you could argue that it already has. Unfortunately it's gotten us Scientology, and it has gotten stupider.
Exactly how is Scientology any dumber than Christianity?
Well, I meant that religion in general has gotten stupider. Poor choice of phrasing on my part.
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Post by Flagg »

Darth Wong wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: And what, exactly, is your definition of "integrity"?
In this instance, honesty. I think it's dishonest to agree to go light on someone when you're face to face with them, then ragging on them the next day.
Why is that dishonest? Is there some deception involved? If anything, it would be dishonest if he failed to rag on him the next day, since his hands were tied during the actual interview so he couldn't be as blunt as he would like to be.
You're probably right. I just find it distasteful, as I said before. I honestly would rather he confronted them when they lie on his show, even if that means he has less of them. Somehow I doubt that no rightwing morons would go on his show if he called them on their bullshit to their face. Bill Mahr doesn't seem to have that problem.
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Post by Vaporous »

He does confront them when they lie, and he will argue with them when he disagrees. Sometimes it comes out pretty well. Off the top of my head, there's the McCain interview a few years back (when he was going to visit Falwell), his first interview with Hitchens, the anti-gay marriage idiot he embarrassed, and the time he got the former chairman of the republican national committee to say that "greed and cynicism" corrupted the republican party.
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Post by Spyder »

Darth Wong wrote:
General Zod wrote:
Dalton wrote:Like it or not, religion is still a significant part of American culture, but things are going to - hell, they have to change. Hopefully to something that's more in line with a modern ethos.
In a way you could argue that it already has. Unfortunately it's gotten us Scientology, and it has gotten stupider.
Exactly how is Scientology any dumber than Christianity?
Scientology does seem to be more expensive. Apart from that I'd say the levels of dumbness are pretty subjective.
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