Sec versus SWD

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 12:37pm

Dalek Sec versus the Special Weapons Dalek.

Who takes it?

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2007-05-02 12:39pm

And for those who have no damn idea what either of them are?

(I know who they are, but many folks don't, mostly those of an USAian persuasion)

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2007-05-02 01:17pm

Well, according to Wikipedia, Dalek Sec is a member of the cult of Skaro, a group of Daleks charged with thinking like their enemies, to discover new ways of exterminating them.

Never saw anything with the special weapons Dalek.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 01:26pm

Setzer wrote:Well, according to Wikipedia, Dalek Sec is a member of the cult of Skaro, a group of Daleks charged with thinking like their enemies, to discover new ways of exterminating them.

Never saw anything with the special weapons Dalek.

In terms of intelligence, there is no contest. Secs intelligence is somewhere between high and genius. SWDs intelligence is somewhere between low and retarded.

The special weapons dalek is from 'Rememberance of the Daleks'. It has vastly superior armour and firepower compared with standard Daleks of that era. However, it is not clear that it is capable of speech or autonomous action. In one battle it sits around for sometime whilst the Renegade and Imperial daleks exchange fire, before acting.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-05-02 01:50pm

Sec is in some ways by far the most intelligent dalek ever, as he broke with their own doctrines simply because of his critical analysis however, that may not help against a special weapons dalek in actual combat.

Special weapons daleks are almost universally retarded due to the radiation and chemicals released by their inadequately shielded weapons, though there is, if the Dalek Survival Guide is to be believed, one special weapons dalek whose intellect was greatly superior to the normal, resulting in him being moved into a different casing and given the post of Supreme Controller, a joint third in command position after the Emperor and Dalek Supreme.

Given the size of the weapon attached to Special Weapons Daleks, and the Doctor's belief that a smaller sized weapon could harm a Time War dalek, I would guess that the Special Weapons Dalek would be able to destroy Sec, if it was able to shoot him.

Time War daleks are a lot more agile in the air, though, and have fairly formidable firepower themselves, meaning it's not possible to say definatively. The SWD doesn't appear to have good elevation on that gun, meaning that if Sec were to get the drop on it, he would probably defeat it without it being able to return fire. As he's got better sensors and is generally smarter, I'd be betting on Sec.

There is of course, an apocrythal flying Special Weapons Dalek variant, mentioned in the Survival Guide, and also referenced in Dalek Empire IIRC. Interestingly, they were planning on (again, IIRC) putting such a thing in Rememberance, but the budget wouldn't cover it.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 02:05pm

NecronLord wrote:
There is of course, an apocrythal flying Special Weapons Dalek variant, mentioned in the Survival Guide, and also referenced in Dalek Empire IIRC. Interestingly, they were planning on (again, IIRC) putting such a thing in Rememberance, but the budget wouldn't cover it.

Well, even if SWDs are flight capable, 'Rememberance' flying abilities demonstrated don't come anywhere near close to TW era. The Dalek we see 'flying' in rememberance floats solely up some stairs. They never use it in combat. Reasonable to assume it is only for useful for getting over obstacles, such as stairs, rather than the speedy combat maneuvours of TW Daleks.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-05-02 02:10pm

The flying SWD in the Survival Guide is more like a dedicated aircraft than a normal dalek.

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2007-05-02 02:12pm

What type of Dalek was the one which had some sort of fusion cutter in Parting of The Ways? it only had that cutter and no plunger interface jobby.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 02:15pm

NecronLord wrote:The flying SWD in the Survival Guide is more like a dedicated aircraft than a normal dalek.

Out of curiosity. Does the dalek surival guide address why Daleks stick to their mainly impractical pepper pot design. Rather than a more useful humanoid form - humanoid robot I mean?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-05-02 02:33pm

Dartzap wrote:What type of Dalek was the one which had some sort of fusion cutter in Parting of The Ways? it only had that cutter and no plunger interface jobby.

They're traditionally called 'A dalek with a welding torch' - it's a callback to a similar scene in the first dalek serial, where they sported a number of alternate plunger attachments.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-05-02 02:34pm

petesampras wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The flying SWD in the Survival Guide is more like a dedicated aircraft than a normal dalek.
Out of curiosity. Does the dalek surival guide address why Daleks stick to their mainly impractical pepper pot design. Rather than a more useful humanoid form - humanoid robot I mean?

They've been, in universe, able to hover since Genesis - it's the only way they'd ever get over No Man's Land. Consequently, there's no way in which the humanoid form is an improvement for them.

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 05:00pm

NecronLord wrote:
petesampras wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The flying SWD in the Survival Guide is more like a dedicated aircraft than a normal dalek.
Out of curiosity. Does the dalek surival guide address why Daleks stick to their mainly impractical pepper pot design. Rather than a more useful humanoid form - humanoid robot I mean?
They've been, in universe, able to hover since Genesis - it's the only way they'd ever get over No Man's Land. Consequently, there's no way in which the humanoid form is an improvement for them.

Well, having two proper arms to manipulate things would certainly help.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-05-02 05:23pm

petesampras wrote:Well, having two proper arms to manipulate things would certainly help.

I don't think it's that important to them. They seem to have machines to do physical labour for them.

Though it must be pretty frustrating on all those occasions they get stuck on their own somewhere.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-05-02 06:46pm

It was kind of implied that the Daleks could go over rubble, long flights of stairs and possibly mine shafts way, way back in "The Dalek Invasion of Earth", with the Daleks equipped with some kind of hover pad - but any pre-Time War Dalek needs a transolar disc to fly around high in the atmosphere or through space like a spacecraft which the Time War Daleks can do with little effort and without additional aides.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2007-05-02 06:59pm

It would seem the TW era Daleks are somewhat like the late mark Bolos with their integrated flight characteristics being superior over the less autonomous ones of the past.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-05-02 07:11pm

I dread to think what a Time War version of SWD is like if they can fly about like "normal" TW Daleks and pack even more heat in that oversized cannon (TW Daleks would also almost certainly have the technical expertise to protect the piloting mutant from it's weaponry).

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-02 07:58pm

The Imperial SWD in Rememberance was supposed to be quite old and experienced, but I'm not sure how *any* classic Dalek versus a TW Dalek is supposed to be fair. As noted earlier, The SWD can't even elevate it's gun to engage flying enemies.

The Daleks are supposed to be scientists - their misuse as robot idiots in the 70s notwithstanding - and not just grunts. At least the top tier, responsible for technology decisions, seem to be conservative enough to stick with the original design and just completely overhaul the internals. Not even an akimbo blaster Dalek in sight.

But when they couldn't even have chained up Sec without slaves...

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-02 09:51pm

Stark wrote:The Imperial SWD in Rememberance was supposed to be quite old and experienced, but I'm not sure how *any* classic Dalek versus a TW Dalek is supposed to be fair. As noted earlier, The SWD can't even elevate it's gun to engage flying enemies.

The Daleks are supposed to be scientists - their misuse as robot idiots in the 70s notwithstanding - and not just grunts. At least the top tier, responsible for technology decisions, seem to be conservative enough to stick with the original design and just completely overhaul the internals. Not even an akimbo blaster Dalek in sight.

But when they couldn't even have chained up Sec without slaves...

The Daleks were still pretty smart as late as 74. It was pretty much the whole Davros rewrite which turned them into morons.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2007-05-02 09:59pm

When even the creator starts treating them like rigid, unthinking robots (like in Destiny) you know something's gone wrong.

I always liked the earlier idea that Daleks were intelligent and dangerous but often worked from the shadows, either using slave races to fight for them or simply manipulating events without showing themselves at all. A whole race of mad scientists and evil geniuses is far more interesting than 'zomg we are in an eternal deadlock with the Movellans' idiots.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2007-05-03 07:31pm

Stark wrote: I always liked the earlier idea that Daleks were intelligent and dangerous but often worked from the shadows, either using slave races to fight for them or simply manipulating events without showing themselves at all. A whole race of mad scientists and evil geniuses is far more interesting than 'zomg we are in an eternal deadlock with the Movellans' idiots.

In the recent seasons of Doctor Who they've struck a great balance with the updated Daleks both being highly intelligent technocrats and flying mini-tanks that are very hard to kill - I bet Sec is going to take this fight since the Special Weapons Daleks doesn't to have any shields, Sec has, Sec's smaller cannon could blow open the SWD's armour and Sec can literally fly like a spacecraft (while the "old skool" SWD can likely only hover a few meters off the ground).

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2007-05-03 08:07pm

Big Orange wrote:
Stark wrote: I always liked the earlier idea that Daleks were intelligent and dangerous but often worked from the shadows, either using slave races to fight for them or simply manipulating events without showing themselves at all. A whole race of mad scientists and evil geniuses is far more interesting than 'zomg we are in an eternal deadlock with the Movellans' idiots.
In the recent seasons of Doctor Who they've struck a great balance with the updated Daleks both being highly intelligent technocrats and flying mini-tanks that are very hard to kill - I bet Sec is going to take this fight since the Special Weapons Daleks doesn't to have any shields, Sec has, Sec's smaller cannon could blow open the SWD's armour and Sec can literally fly like a spacecraft (while the "old skool" SWD can likely only hover a few meters off the ground).

I'm not entirely sure why you put that in small font - don't seem to be any spoilers. Anyway, whilst the SWD doesn't seem to have any shields, it does appear to have upgraded armour. In 'Rememberance' standard Dalek fire seems to have no effect.