New limits on resuscitation....

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Lisa
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New limits on resuscitation....

Post by Lisa »

Not sure if this went in news or here, being that there's ethical issues with resuscitation and it is medical science, I posted it here.

This article can be found here
To Treat the Dead
The new science of resuscitation is changing the way doctors think about heart attacks—and death itself.

By Jerry Adler
Newsweek
May 7, 2007 issue - Consider someone who has just died of a heart attack. His organs are intact, he hasn't lost blood. All that's happened is his heart has stopped beating—the definition of "clinical death"—and his brain has shut down to conserve oxygen. But what has actually died?
As recently as 1993, when Dr. Sherwin Nuland wrote the best seller "How We Die," the conventional answer was that it was his cells that had died. The patient couldn't be revived because the tissues of his brain and heart had suffered irreversible damage from lack of oxygen. This process was understood to begin after just four or five minutes. If the patient doesn't receive cardiopulmonary resuscitation within that time, and if his heart can't be restarted soon thereafter, he is unlikely to recover. That dogma went unquestioned until researchers actually looked at oxygen-starved heart cells under a microscope. What they saw amazed them, according to Dr. Lance Becker, an authority on emergency medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. "After one hour," he says, "we couldn't see evidence the cells had died. We thought we'd done something wrong." In fact, cells cut off from their blood supply died only hours later.

But if the cells are still alive, why can't doctors revive someone who has been dead for an hour? Because once the cells have been without oxygen for more than five minutes, they die when their oxygen supply is resumed. It was that "astounding" discovery, Becker says, that led him to his post as the director of Penn's Center for Resuscitation Science, a newly created research institute operating on one of medicine's newest frontiers: treating the dead.

Biologists are still grappling with the implications of this new view of cell death—not passive extinguishment, like a candle flickering out when you cover it with a glass, but an active biochemical event triggered by "reperfusion," the resumption of oxygen supply. The research takes them deep into the machinery of the cell, to the tiny membrane-enclosed structures known as mitochondria where cellular fuel is oxidized to provide energy. Mitochondria control the process known as apoptosis, the programmed death of abnormal cells that is the body's primary defense against cancer. "It looks to us," says Becker, "as if the cellular surveillance mechanism cannot tell the difference between a cancer cell and a cell being reperfused with oxygen. Something throws the switch that makes the cell die."

With this realization came another: that standard emergency-room procedure has it exactly backward. When someone collapses on the street of cardiac arrest, if he's lucky he will receive immediate CPR, maintaining circulation until he can be revived in the hospital. But the rest will have gone 10 or 15 minutes or more without a heartbeat by the time they reach the emergency department. And then what happens? "We give them oxygen," Becker says. "We jolt the heart with the paddles, we pump in epinephrine to force it to beat, so it's taking up more oxygen." Blood-starved heart muscle is suddenly flooded with oxygen, precisely the situation that leads to cell death. Instead, Becker says, we should aim to reduce oxygen uptake, slow metabolism and adjust the blood chemistry for gradual and safe reperfusion.

Researchers are still working out how best to do this. A study at four hospitals, published last year by the University of California, showed a remarkable rate of success in treating sudden cardiac arrest with an approach that involved, among other things, a "cardioplegic" blood infusion to keep the heart in a state of suspended animation. Patients were put on a heart-lung bypass machine to maintain circulation to the brain until the heart could be safely restarted. The study involved just 34 patients, but 80 percent of them were discharged from the hospital alive. In one study of traditional methods, the figure was about 15 percent.

Becker also endorses hypothermia—lowering body temperature from 37 to 33 degrees Celsius—which appears to slow the chemical reactions touched off by reperfusion. He has developed an injectable slurry of salt and ice to cool the blood quickly that he hopes to make part of the standard emergency-response kit. "In an emergency department, you work like mad for half an hour on someone whose heart stopped, and finally someone says, 'I don't think we're going to get this guy back,' and then you just stop," Becker says. The body on the cart is dead, but its trillions of cells are all still alive. Becker wants to resolve that paradox in favor of life.

© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.


Not every one wants to live forever but I can say no one wants their loved ones to die either. All I can do is wonder "What if....".

Also on a side note if that's how our body fights cancer using it in controlled sections of our body might be a way to eradicate cancer. I know it's not possible for all types of cancer but....
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Post by Surlethe »

Well, I'll be damned. We learn new things every day.

In addition to helping slow or stop deaths, might this also have interesting implications for anti-aging research?
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Post by Shroom Man 777 »

It's just a shame we didn't learn of this any sooner :(
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Post by PainRack »

Woah................
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Lisa wrote:Also on a side note if that's how our body fights cancer using it in controlled sections of our body might be a way to eradicate cancer. I know it's not possible for all types of cancer but....
There was a thread discussing this discovery a couple of months ago as a new line of attack on cancer.
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Post by Molyneux »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:It's just a shame we didn't learn of this any sooner :(
That's true, but...it's a damn good thing we discovered this now as opposed to 20 or 100 years from now.

80 percent, huh? That sounds like a pretty damn good improvement to start with...
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Post by wolveraptor »

So we've been guaranteeing death for ER patients by filling them with oxygen this entire time? That's not a comforting thought.
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Post by Soontir C'boath »

I suppose if first responders find an unconscious victim in cardiac arrest, new regulations will have us just call 911 and let the hospital take care of it since we wouldn't know how long the victim's been out. Though I'd vastly would try to do CPR on the victim anyway since he might be under that five minute mark.

This will definitely change the CPR training course in the years to come.
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Post by Sriad »

Soontir C'boath wrote:I suppose if first responders find an unconscious victim in cardiac arrest, new regulations will have us just call 911 and let the hospital take care of it since we wouldn't know how long the victim's been out. Though I'd vastly would try to do CPR on the victim anyway since he might be under that five minute mark.

This will definitely change the CPR training course in the years to come.
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Post by Jack Bauer »

To channel Mr. Spock...

Fascinating

If this is substantiated by further tests, this find is truly groundbreaking.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Jack Bauer wrote:To channel Mr. Spock...

Fascinating

If this is substantiated by further tests, this find is truly groundbreaking.
As groundbreaking as the development of CPR itself was. Only this promises to vastly open the envelope for rescuing cardiac patients.
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Post by Dooey Jo »

PainRack wrote:Woah................
Indeed :shock:
wolveraptor wrote:So we've been guaranteeing death for ER patients by filling them with oxygen this entire time? That's not a comforting thought.
Well, we have to remember that the survival rate for those patients before CPR and such was introduced probably was very close to zero.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

This actually sounds almost like common sense in a way. Most microbes that are facultative aerobes/anaerobes can adapt to gradual changes from aerobic to anaerobic and vice versa, but flood their surroundings with O2 or drain it of the element and death occurs. This is simply a variation on that in ways, only our more complex genome seems to allow the p53 gene and other anti-cancer defence mechanisms to dictate what to do with sudden environmental alterations.
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Post by Academia Nut »

Hmmm... thinking about it, this may also be related to the body's own cancer defences, only run rampant. Oxygen is a poison, albeit one that numerous species have figured out how to protect themselves from so they can use it for energy generation purposes. Because it is a free radical, it can cause cellular damage, which could in turn lead to the formation of cancerous cells in the body. Thus, aside from the damage caused by an abrupt rise in O2 partial pressures within the cells, the mitochondria might be programmed to self-destruct the cell as a precautionary measure against cancer, only when every cell in your body does that, that is considered a bad thing...

Anyway, very interesting development, especially for invasion surgery. We already technically kill people in open heart as we stop the heart from beating, if we could get hours instead of minutes to work though, that would be a massive boon to the medical industry. It also has implications for space travel and long trips, with suspended animation coming that much closer.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Oxygen: - An intensely habit-forming accumulative toxic substance. As little as one breath is known to produce a life-long addiction to the gas, which addiction invariably ends in death.
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Post by Academia Nut »

Heh, and don't forget, a roadside study found that 100% of impaired drivers tested positive for oxygen in the bloodstream, along with it's chemical derivative, water. Those clusters of eight protons, eight neutrons, and eight to ten electrons depending upon ionization are out to get us I say!
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Post by Stormin »

Here's a question. For someone undergoing extremely risky surgery would it be safer to kill the person, do the surgery and repairs then revive them if this works as advertised?
Wouldn't an inactive body would have less complications during surgery?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Stormin wrote:Here's a question. For someone undergoing extremely risky surgery would it be safer to kill the person, do the surgery and repairs then revive them if this works as advertised?
Wouldn't an inactive body would have less complications during surgery?
Work is being done to make a procedure that would allow the draining of over 60% of the body's circulatory system tissue and lowering of body temperature to allow lower metabolic rates. This would, if it works as well on humans as it has on dogs and rats, allow surgery to be done with less risk from thing such as blood loss. The military is also keen on learning how soldiers could still operate with over half their blood lost.

There are biological programs that allow extreme survival when the odds are stacked against you. It's just a matter of finding how to invoke them at will.
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Post by Academia Nut »

That's actually what we technically already do for open heart surgery. You can't operate on a person's heart when it is beating, so you have to chemically stop it for a couple minutes to do any work. Because the legal definition of dead is that a person's heart has stopped beating, we thus kill people to make them easier to operate on. This has some interesting repurfusion related damage mechanisms as well, but that has to do with the fact that you generate ion imbalances in the cells in anoxic environments, and since muscle cells rely upon ions to trigger their firing, you can get cellular damage as the heart cells contract and crush their own cytoskeleton.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Yeah, but this would be more extreme and for all kinds of surgery too. The idea is to have the person as inactive as possible without going into brain death, which is cellular damage as opposed to the cardio-vascular definition.

So long as the person is able to be brought out of an induced state of suspended animation, they can prolong surgery or even put it off for much longer than ordinarily possible.
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Post by Academia Nut »

*Ahem*
I wrote wrote:Anyway, very interesting development, especially for invasive surgery. We already technically kill people in open heart as we stop the heart from beating, if we could get hours instead of minutes to work though, that would be a massive boon to the medical industry
But yeah, I didn't quite express that as well in my post after that. The implications of this are huge though, because if they can find a way to prevent brain damage and death after extended anoxic exposure then we could do surgeries thought impossible before. Bullet to the aorta? Bring them into the hospital, put in a patch until the wound can heal, resucitate and they're good. The difficulties of emergency medicine would drop by orders of magnitude, and if this works as good as they say it might, we could see accident related death drop like a stone as so long as we have the head and torso intact we could potentially revive all but the most grievous injuries. I merely brought up the ionic damage to point out that there can be more than one mechanism at work in cell death.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Bah, your post is inferior to mine in English presentation. :P

You are right though. The idea is to buy time for those injured in areas with little to no medical assistance, so putting them on ice and draining their blood with a few chemical cocktails for good measure should give someone who had only minutes before potentially hours until they go critical.
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Post by Tsyroc »

I can see this leading to us having to bring a heart bipass machine to every code we go on, or most floors would have to have one on hand. Cardiopelegic solutions wouldn't be much of a problem since it would probably only mean that we'd add a few of the premixed liter bags to the code cart.

The other stuff that might be needed is smaller and can be compounded from the base items we already keep on the cart.
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Post by PainRack »

Soontir C'boath wrote:I suppose if first responders find an unconscious victim in cardiac arrest, new regulations will have us just call 911 and let the hospital take care of it since we wouldn't know how long the victim's been out. Though I'd vastly would try to do CPR on the victim anyway since he might be under that five minute mark.

This will definitely change the CPR training course in the years to come.
I honestly doubt that.... ice slurry is one thing, but compression and its importance shouldn't change. Why let him get starved of oxygen in the first place, when you can pump blood all over his body?
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Post by Son of the Suns »

Academia Nut wrote:That's actually what we technically already do for open heart surgery. You can't operate on a person's heart when it is beating, so you have to chemically stop it for a couple minutes to do any work. Because the legal definition of dead is that a person's heart has stopped beating, we thus kill people to make them easier to operate on. This has some interesting repurfusion related damage mechanisms as well, but that has to do with the fact that you generate ion imbalances in the cells in anoxic environments, and since muscle cells rely upon ions to trigger their firing, you can get cellular damage as the heart cells contract and crush their own cytoskeleton.

I thought the legal definition of death was brain death, not the hear failing to beat...
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