Point Blank Range

[TC Pilot]

Teshik ordered him to stay, he didn't. He disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer, fled like a coward, and facilitated the fall of the Empire into warlordism as much as any other person. Court martial and firing squad are the least he should have gotten.

[Lord Pounder]

Here is a good thread on the subject of Pellaeon.

[Warsie]

Warsie: Apologies are in order. I didn't notice you make note of the novelization.

Okay

Coruscant is irrelevant. Little inconsistencies like Invisible Hand v. Venator obviously may happen over the course of 25 millenia, but they certainly aren't the norm.

Right, but for much of the entire battle ships were that close and that was a major battle in Galactic History; I have a hard time believing that that Ackbar didn't know that.

Unless Ackbar's a complete buffoon (which he isn't), and battleships are meant to unload on each other from distances that would be too close by any standard (which they aren't), there's no reason to assume point-blank combat is something to be anticipated.

It's not anticipated yes, I admit that the Imperial Forces were surprised at that as well as some of the Alliance

But supposedly things like this happened in the past, like the Ackbar Slash
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ackbar_Slash

Time is money. The first waves of TIEs came from the fleet. Considering the distances between the DS and the fleet engagement, it would take precious time for those fighters to be prepped, readied, launched and reach the fighting.

The Empire knew the Alliance was coming. When the shields fell, the Empire was able to send TIEs from the DS II in conjunction with a few TIEs from the fleet battle who stubbornly followed those ships. By the time the point-blank fleet battle was going on for some time ( a few inutes before the shield went down), TIEs from the DSII were being sent to help engage the Rebels (sent through small openings in the shield which were closed again) and when the point-blank melee first happened the Alliance had a hard time keeping their first waves of fighters alive; TIEs were able to defend the ISDs somewhat-effectively for the first few minutes until it degenerated.

And even then, the Imperials are in no condition to coordinate in a way that would make fighters meaningful.

They helped to distract Alliance fighters from doing other things and the breakdown happened after Palpatine died.

[quoe]The Executor's spontaneous destruction happens after Palpatine's death, but that incalcuable, unobserable, unquantifiable mystical force Palpatine was apparently weilding only added to the general chaos of the battle resulting for the destruction of the Imperial fleet's command and control ability resulting from the comm. ship's destruction.[/quote]

The Comm. Ship was mainly doing the jamming in the Alliance Fleet's direction and the Executor could easily take over, especially with multiple bridges. The loss did inconvenience the Imps yes for some time and help the Rebels know what is out there.

meh.

Lord Pounder: Sorry, but Pellaeon did not do the right thing. The right thing would have been to follow orders and fight on as Grand Admiral Teshik commanded him to do, not desert his superior officer. The Empire's fragmentation after Endor was the only thing saving the undistinguished geezer from a court martial he deserved.

Actually, Teshik barely got out of the DSII before it blew up and we don't know when he was able to take over Eleemosynary and take over; Teshik was said to be the last main piece of resistance, doing hit-and-run attacks for ~4 hours until Eleemosynary was disabled and captured

The fact the Grand Admiral fought on alone for three hours against a fleet that had suffered at least 60% casualties shows clearly enough in itself the Imperial fleet (which only lost six Star Destroyers), was more than capable of finishing off the Rebels on its own, never mind the sector fleet ringing the system.

The Sector Fleet was important, yes that was weird. Possible there were larger ships there, but who knows how much of that fleet was Carracks, Strikes and other smaller frigates and corvettes. There were likely Victories and Imperators with the interdictors yes.

Then the whole "let's get the fuck out of here" attitude The fleet that actually fought had might've scared the other ships, who had more smaller ships out of there.

And we don't really know if those ships did fight in the battle or not? A Carrack Cruiser attacked the ships rescuing survivors of the Liberty and the outer fleet might've been a wall against which some of the other ships were fighting against.

However, Teshik did do hit and run attacks.

And more than 6 ISDs were taken down, at least 6 ISDs were taken down afte the Executor hit the DSII. More like 10 ISDs were destroyed and 4 ISDs captured, plus Executor and com, ship out of originally 40 ISDs+Executor+commship at the battle.

And based on the Truce st Bakura 1/5 of the Rebel Fleet was destroyed

Teshik ordered him to stay, he didn't.

We don't know if Teshik was even on Eleemosynary at the time or on an Assault Transport or Lambda shuttle trying not to get shot/etc.

He disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer, fled like a coward,

We don't know if Teshik was even giving orders at the time, Harrsk had his task force flee after seeing the DSII blow up, and the captain of Virulence had his ship flee after seeing the Executor crash. The DSII didn't even blow up and he fled! And he did fight there even after the DSII blew up and the original Captain of Chimaera was killed, promoting him to Captain

and facilitated the fall of the Empire into warlordism as much as any other person.

He tried to keep the fleet together actually, and gave it to Prittick, who was an admiral (Harrsk supposedly was mad because he was being ordered around by a capptain, Pellaeon and that was a reason Harsk went warlord too)

Court martial and firing squad are the least he should have gotten.

And he ended up being Grand Admiral of the Imperial Remnant.

[Anguirus]

The fact the Grand Admiral fought on alone for three hours against a fleet that had suffered at least 60% casualties shows clearly enough in itself the Imperial fleet (which only lost six Star Destroyers), was more than capable of finishing off the Rebels on its own, never mind the sector fleet ringing the system.

I have no interest in arguing about Pellaeon, but I just want to point out that it is totally unfounded to say that the Imperials only lost six Star Destroyers.

This is a misreading of a Thrawn quote that mentioned only (paraphrasing) "the loss of six Star Destroyers in engagements they should have had no trouble with." He is only referring to Destroyers lost after the Emperor's death (The Communications Ship was lost before then at the very least) AND in fights that they should have won.

[Connor MacLeod]

Disregarding for a second that ROTS could arguably have overriden Ackbar's commentary about point blank combat in the novel (I'll deal with ROTS in the minute) it has to be noted that one cannot read too much into ACkbar's statements. Dialogue by its nature is much more fallible (and mutable) than visuals are, and we KNOW point blank combats have occured elsewhere. (nevermind the fact its a big fucking galaxy. You can't possibly tell me that someone, somewhere, did not come up with the idea "hey lets get closer to the enemy!" In fact, we know fighters do it frequently - like they did in ROTJ. And even Ackbar had a good idea of what close range fighting entailed, how else would he know about the "last long against those Star Destroyers?" if they got closer?)

What we Can Infer from Ackbar's comments is that "point blank combat" (despite what many trolls have tried claiming, especially since ROTS came out) is not a "common" engagement range, much less the typical one. ROTJ occured for much of the battle in excess of 1000 km or more, and the novelization implies the initial exchanges occured at much longer ranges (just shorttly after the Imperials appear from around Endor in the pincer movement, in fact.) Implying a combat range in the high thousands of km, at least.

As for ROTS: The novelization makes it clear that the battle around Coruscant even when the movie starts was not being conducted at JUST the "age of sail broadside" ranges we saw - there were ships engaging volleys at hundreds of kilometers, and we saw plenty of fire from ships onscreen shooting at ships offscreen (And ships offscreen firing.) That alone implies much greater ranges. (nevermind the intial ranges when the forcese were closing.) There ARE thousands of thips on both sides, after all.. even assuming ship seperations of a few km apart, the entire battle is going to be scattered across thousands of kilometers, so there's still plenty of room for longer engagements as well as shorter.Oh, and there's also the fact the Republic forces were trying to prevent the Separatsits from escaping, which was a key factor neccessitating much of the closer-range engagements.

Edit: Another point to mention, large scale fleet actions can also result in lower ranges than small fleet/single ship actions due to the sheer number of vessels and their EW measures (as well as the sheer magnitude of energies being absorbed and released, and other factors.) SW ships are known to operate in an EM heavy enviroment, and those sorts of factors can lead to reduced ranges eaisly. Moreover, we know in ROTJ that the DS2 can jam, so that only makes the "EW" issue worse (for the Rebels, anyhow.)

[TC Pilot]

Warsie:

Right, but for much of the entire battle ships were that close and that was a major battle in Galactic History; I have a hard time believing that that Ackbar didn't know that.

So it's what you think what Ackbar knows against what Ackbar says. Which is more reliable? I see no reason to assume it is either preferable, given the outcome of that little spat in ROTS, or advisable for battleships to unload broadsides at each other at ranges even Terran battleships would be uncomfortable with.

But supposedly things like this happened in the past, like the Ackbar Slash

Can you put a date on when that tactic was developed? Might it have been named, oh, I don't know, after Endor?

The Comm. Ship was mainly doing the jamming in the Alliance Fleet's direction and the Executor could easily take over, especially with multiple bridges. The loss did inconvenience the Imps yes for some time and help the Rebels know what is out there.

So a communications ship was merely jamming the Rebels? Not providing...communications?

Even if Executor could coordinate the battle better than the comm. ship (I see no reason to assume Executor was any better at coordinating fleets), the catastrophic destruction of the Imperial fleet's main C&C node would be disasterous and regaining that would be nothing short of a miracle.

Actually, Teshik barely got out of the DSII before it blew up and we don't know when he was able to take over Eleemosynary and take over; Teshik was said to be the last main piece of resistance, doing hit-and-run attacks for ~4 hours until Eleemosynary was disabled and captured

Yes, Teshik barely got out of the DSII before it exploded, but he was also abandoned by Pellaeon when Teshik ordered him to stay and fight.

And more than 6 ISDs were taken down, at least 6 ISDs were taken down afte the Executor hit the DSII. More like 10 ISDs were destroyed and 4 ISDs captured, plus Executor and com, ship out of originally 40 ISDs+Executor+commship at the battle.

That's nice. I merely assumed the person I was responding to had the correct number.

And based on the Truce st Bakura 1/5 of the Rebel Fleet was destroyed

Well, that accounts for 1/3 of the casualties. Only about 25% of the Rebel fleet was even in fighting shape when Teshik took the field.

We don't know if Teshik was even on Eleemosynary at the time or on an Assault Transport or Lambda shuttle trying not to get shot/etc.

It doesn't matter if he was in a shuttle, an ISD, or HIMS Crapmobile the Tug. He ordered Pellaeon to stay and fight with him. The acting-Captain ignored the command of the highest ranked member of the Imperial Starfleet and fled the battle.

We don't know if Teshik was even giving orders at the time, Harrsk had his task force flee after seeing the DSII blow up, and the captain of Virulence had his ship flee after seeing the Executor crash. The DSII didn't even blow up and he fled! And he did fight there even after the DSII blew up and the original Captain of Chimaera was killed, promoting him to Captain

Jumping on the bandwagon of desertion does not exonerate Pellaeon from his crime. We know Teshik fought on for three hours after Pellaeon ordered the retreat, and we know the Rebel fleet was in such a pitiful condition that if even a portion of the ships Pellaeon corrupted into fleeing had stayed behind like they should have with Teshik, the Rebel fleet would have been a collection of particles thinly spread out across the Endor system and blanketing the Forest Moon with apoclyptic debris.

He tried to keep the fleet together actually, and gave it to Prittick, who was an admiral (Harrsk supposedly was mad because he was being ordered around by a capptain, Pellaeon and that was a reason Harsk went warlord too)

It was Pellaeon's desertion that caused the first warlord to abandon the Empire. That set off the avalanche.

And he ended up being Grand Admiral of the Imperial Remnant.

A rank handed over to him by a psychotic wench who slept her way into a fake military command.

Anguirus: I apologize for the mistake. I merely assumed in my response to Lord Pounder he knew the number of Star Destroyers lost in the battle.

[Warsie]

So it's what you think what Ackbar knows against what Ackbar says. Which is more reliable? I see no reason to assume it is either preferable, given the outcome of that little spat in ROTS, or advisable for battleships to unload broadsides at each other at ranges even Terran battleships would be uncomfortable with.

I didn't say that it was 'preferable', I said that the idea that ths never happened is bad.

Can you put a date on when that tactic was developed? Might it have been named, oh, I don't know, after Endor?

hehehee....but the source is the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, not the New Republic or Allaince of Free Planets Sourcebook.

So a communications ship was merely jamming the Rebels? Not providing...communications?

Coonsidering the novel and Executor's capabilities it is possible.

Even if Executor could coordinate the battle better than the comm. ship (I see no reason to assume Executor was any better at coordinating fleets),

Backup bridges (yes I know the comm ship does that too) It' designed as a commandship, all the comm and sensor domes, the fact tht they do lead Sector Groups and massive fleets (like Task Force Vengeance), etc.

the catastrophic destruction of the Imperial fleet's main C&C node would be disasterous and regaining that would be nothing short of a miracle.

They likely had orders to instead hook up with Executor if that communications went down; and Palpatine was still alive and the Imp fleet would continue; the destruction was improtant in disrupting Imprial coordination but it was temporary and the Allaince exploited it.

Yes, Teshik barely got out of the DSII before it exploded, but he was also abandoned by Pellaeon when Teshik ordered him to stay and fight.

We don't even know if Teshik was GIVING orders until most ships fled; and even if he did we don't know if Pellaeon knew.

That's nice. I merely assumed the person I was responding to had the correct number.

heh...

Well, that accounts for 1/3 of the casualties. Only about 25% of the Rebel fleet was even in fighting shape when Teshik took the field.

And the Alliance had good morale as well you forget, and that their crews weren't on withdrawal from Sith battle meditation like the Imps could.

It doesn't matter if he was in a shuttle, an ISD, or HIMS Crapmobile the Tug. He ordered Pellaeon to stay and fight with him. The acting-Captain ignored the command of the highest ranked member of the Imperial Starfleet and fled the battle.

We don't know if he even gave orders then or was busy gettign away fromt he explosion.

Jumping on the bandwagon of desertion does not exonerate Pellaeon from his crime.

Higher-ranking officers, liek Adm Harrsk did retreat before Pellaeon and even if he did do something 'treasonous', apparently most of the Imp Fleet still alive, including Higher-ranking officers agreed and retreated as well.

We know Teshik fought on for three hours after Pellaeon ordered the retreat, and we know the Rebel fleet was in such a pitiful condition that if even a portion of the ships Pellaeon corrupted into fleeing had stayed behind like they should have with Teshik, the Rebel fleet would have been a collection of particles thinly spread out across the Endor system and blanketing the Forest Moon with apoclyptic debris.

not if their crews 'fought on like cadets' and were beaten.

It was Pellaeon's desertion that caused the first warlord to abandon the Empire. That set off the avalanche.

Not really, Palpatine made it that way on purpose.

A rank handed over to him by a psychotic wench who slept her way into a fake military command.

who ended a nasty civil war between the remnants, ended racism and sexism and expanded power, built alliances between Imperial Worlds and built a more free Imperial Remnant

[TC Pilot]

I didn't say that it was 'preferable', I said that the idea that ths never happened is bad.

Just because it may have happened in the past doesn't mean that it should happen. A snubfighter might miraculously blow up a capital ship on its own. We've known it to happen. Does that mean any self-respecting commander should rely on throwing a single snubfighter to blow up capital ships?

The Rebel fleet survived, barely, I might add, because this tactic was so completely unexpected and in any normal situation - one where a moon isn't firing superlasers at you from behind - not something a commander should do.

hehehee....but the source is the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, not the New Republic or Allaince of Free Planets Sourcebook.

So you're basing your assumption on the book's.... title? Even then, the Rebel Alliance existed beyond the battle at Endor.

Coonsidering the novel and Executor's capabilities it is possible.

And which is more likely? A communications ship providing communications? Or Executor? Why even describe it as the communications ship in the text?

Backup bridges (yes I know the comm ship does that too) It' designed as a commandship, all the comm and sensor domes, the fact tht they do lead Sector Groups and massive fleets (like Task Force Vengeance), etc.

Even regular Impstar battleships do all that, and they're not specifically designated communications ships in the text. When you get right down to it, aside from how many guns, ships, and kilometers Executor has, she's really not all that special.

They likely had orders to instead hook up with Executor if that communications went down; and Palpatine was still alive and the Imp fleet would continue; the destruction was improtant in disrupting Imprial coordination but it was temporary and the Allaince exploited it.

Which is essentially what I've been saying...

We don't even know if Teshik was GIVING orders until most ships fled; and even if he did we don't know if Pellaeon knew.

Pellaeon certainly knew. The NEC, contradicting "Who's Who" (which says Teshik fought on alone for three hours), states Pellaeon retreated only after Teshik's ship was disabled. Of course, it's an in-universe NR propaganda piece, and with Pellaeon in charge of the Remnant, accusing the leader of their newest ally of insubordination, desertion, dereliction of duty, and downright treason aren't the smartest things.

If Pellaeon didn't know about Teshik, no one would have written he fought alongside Teshik until his flagship was disabled. Instead of lying to preserve his reputation, they would have rationalized his actions.

And the Alliance had good morale as well you forget, and that their crews weren't on withdrawal from Sith battle meditation like the Imps could.

I think you'll find the affects of Palpatine's and Executor's losses are overexaggerated. (I've been waiting to cart out these quotes from the TaB sourcebook)

"This event [Executor's destruction] seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet--the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off. While the decrease was not substantial, it was noticeable." -pg. 8

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded. In fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor. Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field. Despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four more hours." -pg. 9

We don't know if he even gave orders then or was busy gettign away fromt he explosion.

Of course we do. A combination of the sourcebook and "Who's Who?" reveals the Imperial fleet (which Pellaeon commandeered) withdrew a full hour after the Death Star exploded. More than enough time for the Grand Admiral to reach his ship.

Higher-ranking officers, liek Adm Harrsk did retreat before Pellaeon and even if he did do something 'treasonous', apparently most of the Imp Fleet still alive, including Higher-ranking officers agreed and retreated as well.

Irrelevant. Pellaeon ordered a retreat he had no authority to issue and abandoned the highest officer in the Imperial fleet to death.

not if their crews 'fought on like cadets' and were beaten.

Already dealt with above.

Not really, Palpatine made it that way on purpose.

Don't be a fool. There's no protocol in the Imperial military that magically makes an Imperial officer become a warlord. Harrsk's desertion had to be caused by something, and Pellaeon's gross ineptitude is that catalyst.

who ended a nasty civil war between the remnants, ended racism and sexism and expanded power, built alliances between Imperial Worlds and built a more free Imperial Remnant

Xenophobia and sexism were not institutional policies of the Empire. There was nothing preventing Daala from rising in the ranks save for her gross incompetence, which is plain for all to see in how she handled her week-long rule of the new Remnant.

Daala did nothing but murder a bunch of warlords and then throw away a sizable fleet on a disasterous military endeavour.

[The Original Nex]

I'm always suprised when people defend Pellaeon's actions at Endor. It's indefensible. I doesn't matter if he knew about Teshik. It doesn't matter if Teshik was even there. Pellaeon circumvented the chain of command. He bypassed no only GADM Teshik, but also ADM Harrsk, and every other CO present at the battle, at least 20 other Captains whom Pellaeon had no authority to command. It's irrelevant that they followed the order. It's irrelevant that there was disarray, and fear among the fleet. Pellaeon usurped command of the Imperial fleet. That is all that need be factored in.

[Noble Ire]

I'm always suprised when people defend Pellaeon's actions at Endor. It's indefensible. I doesn't matter if he knew about Teshik. It doesn't matter if Teshik was even there. Pellaeon circumvented the chain of command. He bypassed no only GADM Teshik, but also ADM Harrsk, and every other CO present at the battle, at least 20 other Captains whom Pellaeon had no authority to command. It's irrelevant that they followed the order. It's irrelevant that there was disarray, and fear among the fleet. Pellaeon usurped command of the Imperial fleet. That is all that need be factored in.

I suspect that the defensive tendancy is due to the fact that Pellaeon distinguished himself quite well in his later career, and Battle of Endor is a very large black mark on his otherwise admirable record. He did a remarkable job of stabilizing and moderating the Imperial Remnant, and commanded his fleets with distinction in several campaigns after the Pellaeon-Garvisom Peace Treaty ended the Galactic Civil war. Nevertheless, the his actions following the Emperor's death are impossible to ignore. He may have had valid reasons for ordering the withdrawal (even if they were not tactically sound), but his retreat was a direct violation of naval protocol, and probably sped the Empire's downfall.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Xenophobia and sexism were not institutional policies of the Empire. There was nothing preventing Daala from rising in the ranks save for her gross incompetence, which is plain for all to see in how she handled her week-long rule of the new Remnant.

Bullshit, they were institutional, there were no aliens in the Stormtrooper Corps, and the only female Moff killed her husband to get his position as the Moff of some backwater shithole, it's statistically impossible for there to be not one woman worthy of the job. Secondly, look at the Imperial Political and Military Hierarchy, the vast majority of it is nothing but humans.

[TC Pilot]

Bullshit, they were institutional, there were no aliens in the Stormtrooper Corps, and the only female Moff killed her husband to get his position as the Moff of some backwater shithole, it's statistically impossible for there to be not one woman worthy of the job. Secondly, look at the Imperial Political and Military Hierarchy, the vast majority of it is nothing but humans.

http://domuspublica.net/peculiar_institutions.html

[The Original Nex]

I'm always suprised when people defend Pellaeon's actions at Endor. It's indefensible. I doesn't matter if he knew about Teshik. It doesn't matter if Teshik was even there. Pellaeon circumvented the chain of command. He bypassed no only GADM Teshik, but also ADM Harrsk, and every other CO present at the battle, at least 20 other Captains whom Pellaeon had no authority to command. It's irrelevant that they followed the order. It's irrelevant that there was disarray, and fear among the fleet. Pellaeon usurped command of the Imperial fleet. That is all that need be factored in.

I suspect that the defensive tendancy is due to the fact that Pellaeon distinguished himself quite well in his later career, and Battle of Endor is a very large black mark on his otherwise admirable record. He did a remarkable job of stabilizing and moderating the Imperial Remnant, and commanded his fleets with distinction in several campaigns after the Pellaeon-Garvisom Peace Treaty ended the Galactic Civil war. Nevertheless, the his actions following the Emperor's death are impossible to ignore. He may have had valid reasons for ordering the withdrawal (even if they were not tactically sound), but his retreat was a direct violation of naval protocol, and probably sped the Empire's downfall.

Indeed. People must note that his accomplishments are due to his ADMINISTRATIVE abilities. He was likely picked as Thrawn's flag-captain because the Chimaera was regarded as "one of the best run Star Destroyers in the Empire," and there are other hints to his administrative ability (reorganizing the Remnant a major part). However, this ability at which he excels does NOT translate to military tactical ability, indeed Pellaeon has few military victories to speak of, and his record is rife with instances of abandoning charges, fleeing from the enemy, making poor tactical decisions and failing in his objectives. His actions in the Clone Wars (I can't recall the battle) evidently cost Pellaeon his rank (Captain or greater) as he was not again a Captain until recently before Endor. His actions at Endor, Bilbringi, and others show consistancy in this.

Pellaeon is indeed a comendable administrator, he's just a lousy military commander.

[Connor MacLeod]

Bullshit, they were institutional, there were no aliens in the Stormtrooper Corps,

Whoa, there sparky. Did you even bother to think why that was? Nevermind that the Stormtroopers are still supposed to be using clones as well as recruits, think of the logistical headache a multi-species army must impose (differencees in shape and biology are going to dictate differences in equipment and supplies, up to and including food and amtosphere.) Besides which, we know canonically that "single species" militaries were present in the REpublic era as well (clonetroopers, clone pilots, wookiees, mon cals, utapauans, ,etc.) Nevermind that in the OT era we know "single species" militaries STILL existed (The Mon Cals primarily, although IIRC the sullustans and Bothans were also notable for that.)

By your logic, ,the "Rebels" and Republic both are institituionally Sexist/Xenophobic.

and the only female Moff killed her husband to get his position as the Moff of some backwater shithole, it's statistically impossible for there to be not one woman worthy of the job.

Only known female moff as far as I can recall (Publius probably would know better.) In any event, that merely holds up for the "Sexist" bit at worst - we know of several alien (well partly alien) moffs/Grand Moffs (Bin Essada is a notable one, as was Grand Moff Hissa.) Of course, if they had Alien moffs (just as we had Alien and female military officers) then you probably could have female Moffs as well.

Secondly, look at the Imperial Political and Military Hierarchy, the vast majority of it is nothing but humans.

Military hierarchy maybe (see above), but the political one is debatable, given that the Senate and Bureacracy existed up until the time of Yavin or thereabouts, so its questionable whether you could call the ENTIRE political hierarchy "human".

[Ritterin Sophia]

By your logic, ,the "Rebels" and Republic both are institituionally Sexist/Xenophobic.

However moronic her numbers may be, the defense forces of Republic planets were considered Republic Forces and the Rebels used Bothan spies, Sullustan Pilots and Tech Engineers, and numerous other alien species.

Only known female moff as far as I can recall (Publius probably would know better.) In any event, that merely holds up for the "Sexist" bit at worst - we know of several alien (well partly alien) moffs/Grand Moffs (Bin Essada is a notable one, as was Grand Moff Hissa.) Of course, if they had Alien moffs (just as we had Alien and female military officers) then you probably could have female Moffs as well.

Considering that near-humans differ in very miniscule ways, that's quite different. Hissa is just another exception of Palpatine's anti-alien policies.

Military hierarchy maybe (see above), but the political one is debatable, given that the Senate and Bureacracy existed up until the time of Yavin or thereabouts, so its questionable whether you could call the ENTIRE political hierarchy "human".

You and I both know that the Senate was a rubber stamp one and one Imperial Decree from nonexistence. Regardless, either you just fucked up or you're strawmanning me since I didn't say entirely.

[TC Pilot]

Allow me to reiterate your wrongness: http://domuspublica.net/peculiar_institutions.html

[Ritterin Sophia]

Allow me to reiterate your wrongness: http://domuspublica.net/peculiar_institutions.html

So let me understand this. You want me to go through there, and refute everything Publius has said?

Again, one female Moff and Ysanne Isard who is said to have 'loved the Emperor' which could imply she slept her way there. As for the rubberstamp Senate, the Empire had a way of not following it's own regulations regarding the Senate, specifically by building the first Death Star and another example is lying to the Senate by giving false specifications of the 8km 'Super-class' Star Dreadnaught, which was a ruse to get them to pay for the nearly twice as long Executor-class Star Dreadnaught.

[TC Pilot]

So let me understand this. You want me to go through there, and refute everything Publius has said?

No, I want you to read that article and admit that you don't know what you're talking about and retract your incorrect assumption.

But since you've decided to be a lazy fool, I'll give you examles of females and aliens in the Empire's ranks, discounting Isard (who became regent of the Empire).

Women
-Two members of the Privy Council (in charge of selecting Grand Moffs): Lady Chawkroft, Minister of Corrections; "Imperial Economics Advisor” Adana Vermor (who held a high enough position to prevent the ISB to actually gather evidence before bringing her up on charges).
-Multiple Imperial Senators (regardless of your opinion of them, they still ran much of the Empire), including Mon Mothma and her successor Canna Omonda, Leia Organa (the youngest Senator ever, apparently), and Canny Mandary Bertar (also an alien and chair of the Dispensation Committee).
-Governor Tour Aryon of Tatooine (ie Moff)
-Crela Nen, Director of Administration, Colonial Government of Goroth Prime
-Mahd Windcaller, owner of a large media conglomerate and Imperial Intelligence apparatus and later member of the Interim Ruling Council
-2 Inquisitors, Drayneen and Shynne
-Countess Ryad, wealthy/influential politician of unknown position.
-Admiral Betl Oxtroe, who negotiated a potential cease-fire on behalf of the Empire before being assassinated by Palpatine.
-Unnamed Imperial admiral in "Boba Fett: Overkill"
-Major General Tessala Corvae, an honors graduate of the Military Academy at Carida who was Commanding General, 1st Tapani Assault Battlegroup.
-Captain Plikk, who was commodore of a squadron of six battlecruisers
-Captain Tanda Pryl, who was Commanding Officer, HIMS Thunderflare
-Major Shira Elan Colla Brie, a Special Forces honors graduate from the Military Academy at Carida
-Civé Rashon, Commanding Officer, Obsidian Squadron, an elite fighter squadron embarked aboard HIMS Avenger
-Lieutenant Kasan Moor, who was the acting Commanding Officer, 128th TIE Interceptor Squadron
-Huoba Neva, a female Sullustan, was graduated fourth in her class from the Academy

And of course, let's not forget how Mara Jade walks around Chimaera unmasked and seen by all. Since women aren't in the military, clearly such a disguise wouldn't work... oh wait, it did.

Nonhumans
-Lord Hethrir, dark side apept, Procurator of Justice and the Imperial State’s chief executioner
-Grand Admiral Thrawn
-Grand Admiral Danetta Pitta
-Grand Moff Governor Bertroff Hissa
-Moff Bin Essada
-Grand Moff 4-8C (a DROID)
-Prince Xizor, owner of head of the enormous shipping company Xizor Transport Systems (with the largest private navy in the galaxy at the time) and also overlord of the Black Sun criminal syndicate
-General Sk’ar, a huge nonhuman biped with purple skin and skull-like features
-Major Rahz, a reptilian Gektl
-FOUR members of the Interim Ruling Council: Norym Kim, Spearmaster Ch’unkk, Lord Manos (foreman of the largest labor union), Kooloota-Fyf (head of the Shipbuilders and Astromechs Guild), Prince Za
-"the intelligent arachnoid Sic-Six species has “become well established in Imperial society"

Simply put, you're wrong.

Or are these just more exceptions?

[FTeik]

One question about Pellaeon:

How can he order a retreat ONE hour after the DS explodes and also abandon Teshik after the Grandadmirals ISD is disabled another three hours later? Did Pellaeon decide to come back or what?

[TC Pilot]

Simple. He didn't. He abandoned Teshik an hour after the Death Star exploded and left Teshik to fight alone for 3 hours.

The apparent contradiction between "Who's Who" and NEC is rectified by the fact NEC is an in-universe work by a NR scribe. "Who's Who" as an OOU biography.

[Warsie]

Just because it may have happened in the past doesn't mean that it should happen. A snubfighter might miraculously blow up a capital ship on its own. We've known it to happen. Does that mean any self-respecting commander should rely on throwing a single snubfighter to blow up capital ships?

Like I said, I never said anythig gabout 'preferable' I simply said that the idea that it never happened was bad.

Not to mention the fact that Ackbar might not know the entire military history of the Galaxy; he knew about Tarkin's tactics which included Dodonna's tactics that Tarkin used and improved, some Clone Wars-era tactics, etc

The Rebel fleet survived, barely, I might add, because this tactic was so completely unexpected and in any normal situation - one where a moon isn't firing superlasers at you from behind - not something a commander should do.

I didn't say that it was 'expected' nor 'preferable', I knew thst they were forced into it.

And no, the Rebel Fleet did not 'barely' survive, only 1/5 of th efleet was taken down. I wonder how much of the Imperial Personnel died on the DSII; many did escape though

and here's a list of Alliance ships and Imperial ships at Endor. They did not 'barely' survive.

Note: This is still under construction, and some of the characters don't work here.

Imperial Strength:

Imperial Death Squadron, Grand Admiral Personal Ships and augmented Sector fleet
 1 Executor-class Star Commandship
 Executor
 1+ Tector-class Star Destroyer
 1 Star Cruiser (communications ship, unknown class, 6000 meters estimated)
 ~40 Imperator-class Star Destroyers (ISD-Is and ISD-IIs)
 Accuser (ISD-II)
 Adjudicator (ISD-II)
 Adjucator (ISD)
 Avenger (ISD-II)
 Chimaera (ISD-II)
 Conqueror (ISD)
 Conquest (ISD)
 Death's Head (ISD)
 Denunciator (ISD-II)
 Devastator (ISD)
 Defender (ISD)
 Eleemosynary (ISD)
 Firestorm (ISD)
 Whirlwind (ISD)
 Imperator (ISD)
 Imputator (ISD-II)
 Indictor (ISD-II)
 Judicator (ISD)
 Magic Dragon (ISD)
 Pulsar (ISD)
 Recondite (ISD)
 Nemesis (ISD-II)
 Firestorm (ISD)
 Whirlwind (ISD)
 Redoubtable (ISD)
 Relentless (ISD)
 Retaliator (ISD-II)
 Stalker (ISD)
 Steadfast (ISD)
 Stormhawk (ISD)
 Thunderflare (ISD)
 Tyrant (ISD-II)
 Vehement (ISD-II)
 Visage (ISD)
 Allecto (ISD)
 Implacable (ISD)
 Virulence (ISD-II)
 Garrett (ISD)
 Immortal (ISD-II)
 Invincible (ISD)
 Vengeance (ISD-II)
 1 Victory-class Star Destroyer Dominator?
 200+ Assault Gunboats
 1238 Squadrons of TIEs total in inner system (14,856 TIEs)
 9900+ TIE fighters (825 squadrons) assigned to Imperators
 1650+ TIE Interceptors (206 squadrons) assigned to Imperators
 1650+ TIE Bombers (206 squadrons) assigned to Imperators
 12+ TIE Defenders (1 Squadron, Onyx Squadron) assigned to the Imperators

Outer System with rest of augmented Sector Fleet
 Imperator-I class Star Destroyers
 Imperator-II class Star Destroyers
 Immobilizer-class Star Frigates
 Victory-I class Star Destroyers
 Victory-II class Star Destroyers
 Victory-I class frigates
 Victory-II class frigates
 Vindicator-class frigates
 System Patrol Craft
 Strike-class frigates
 Carrack-class frigates
 Lancer-class frigates
 Many wings of TIE Fighters, Interceptors and Bombers.

 One 900 km half-complete Death Star II
 One Planet-Destroying Superlaser
 Heavy Turbolasers-478,912
 Turbolasers-1,069,728
 Laser Cannons-2,827,698
 Ion Cannons-1,069,537 (trench, all complete)
 Missile Tubes-1,268,409
 Fighters-73293 wings or 5,277,096 fighters
 879,516 TIE bombers, 879,516 TIE interceptors and 3,518,064 TIE fighters
 which are (trench, all complete)
 Troops-843 legions
 Crew-55,707,000 (estimated)
 Zero-G Assault Stormtroopers


Alliance strength
Rebel Fleet
 3+ Home One-class Commandships (Calamari Cruisers)
 Home One (Home One-class Commandship) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Independence (Home One-class) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Defiance (Home One-class) (Calamari Cruiser)
 5+ Bulwark-class Battle Cruisers
 Bulwark 1 (Bulwark-class Battle Cruiser)
 Bulwark 2 (Bulwark-class Battle Cruiser)
 Bulwark 3 (Bulwark-class Battle Cruiser)
 Bulwark 4 (Bulwark-class Battle Cruiser)
 Bulwark 5 (Bulwark-class Battle Cruiser)
 6+ Liberator-class cruisers
 Liberator (Liberator-class cruiser)
 Deliverance (Liberator-class cruiser)
 Emancipation (Liberator-class cruiser)
 Enfranchise (Liberator-class cruiser)
 Rescue (Liberator-class cruiser)
 Salvation (Liberator-class cruiser)
 13+ Dauntless-class battleships
 Relentless (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Autonomy (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Liberty (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Alliance (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Independence (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Democracy (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Dauntless (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Indomitable (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Indefatigable (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Invincible (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Unconquerable (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Tireless (Dauntless-class battleship)
 Unfailing (Dauntless-class battleship)
 35+ 1.2 km Mon Calamari Star Cruisers (MC80s and MC80as, various types; dozens more likely participated)
 Freedom (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Ossus Day (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Mantan Wanderer (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Independence (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Defiance (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Sovereignty (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Democracy (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Enterprise (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Alliance (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Liberty (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Maria (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Pembo (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Endeavor (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Columbia (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Odysseus (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Valorus (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Crucible (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Chie (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Autonomy (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Ludtze (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Reef Home (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Silent Water (MC?) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Sword of Justice (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Ardent (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Cathleen (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Excelsior (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Knight (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Mantan Wanderer (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Renhoek (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Stimsenj'kat (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Wavesong (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Yali (MC80a) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Randall Flagg (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Exterminator (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Tano (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Maximus (MC80) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Many smaller Calamari Destroyers (MC 40s)
 Sullute (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Pertenax (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Shadow (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Valiant (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Condor (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Zeus (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Pietr (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Tiamat (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Re (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Ta (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Falcariae (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 Margaret (MC40) (Calamari Cruiser)
 43+ Nebulon-B Frigates (dozens?)
 Antares (One?) (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Antares Two (conjectural) (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Antares Three (conjectural) (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Antares Four (conjectural) (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Antares Five (conjectural) (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Antares Six (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Angelus (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Priam (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Chancellor (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Free Lance (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Kalla’s Stanchion (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Kuma (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Liberator (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Lightning (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Lion (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Mercy (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Peacemaker (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Persistence (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Provocateur (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Rebel Star (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Tedevium (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Tharen (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Larkhess (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Anvil (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Quenfis (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Warder (Nebulon B Medical Frigate)
 Mercy (Nebulon B Medical Frigate)
 Endeavor (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Achilles (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Rehz’nor (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Eridain (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Redemption (Nebulon B Medical Frigate)
 Valiance (Nebulon B Frigate)
 Yavaris (Nebulon B Frigate)
 Jericho (Nebulon B Frigate)
 Meteor (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Ornik (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Olinar (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Growler (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Regis (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Egale (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Akaga (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Daedlus (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Fugazi (Nebulon-B Frigate)
 4+ Nebulon-B2 Frigates (dozens?)
 Lance (Modified Neb B Frigate)
 Lion (Modified Nebulon B frigate)
 Colada (Modified Nebulon-B Frigate)
 Valiant (Modified Nebulon-B Frigate)
 12+ Dreadnaught-class Star Frigate (many, dozens?)
 Mercury (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Longbow (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Tal’cara (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Karei (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Heretic (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Ack (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Virocho (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Isitoq (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Okinu (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 Neva (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 New Hope (Rendili StarDrive Dreadnaught)
 1+ Victory-class Star Destroyer
 Valiant (Victory-class Star Destroyer)
 1+ Acclamator-II class Frigate
 Rand Ecliptic (Acclamator-II Class Frigate)
 1+ Vindicator-class heavy cruiser (Frigate)
 Molator (Vindicator-class)
 7+ Strike-class cruiser (Frigates)
 AGWS-03 (Code Name) (Strike Cruiser)
 AGWS-04 (Code Name) (Strike Cruiser)
 Thor (Strike Cruiser)
 Daedlus (Strike Cruiser)
 Enfilade (Strike Cruiser)
 Horizon (Strike Cruiser)
 Killiam (Strike Cruiser)
 2+ Modified Strike Cruisers (Peregrine-class interdictors)
 Peregrine (Modified Strike Cruiser)
 Sagina (Modified Strike Cruiser)
 11+ CC-9600 Frigates
 Reliant (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Brave (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Fearless (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Daring (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Courageous (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Valiant (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Intrepid (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Confident (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Valor (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Hero (CC-9600 Frigates)
 Bold (CC-9600 Frigates)
 2+ Assault Frigate (many, dozens?)
 Dodonna (Assault Frigate)
 Haven (Assault Frigate)
 18+ Assault Frigate Mk. II
 Abolisher (Assault Frigate II)
 Aelena (Assault Frigate II)
 Criterios (Assault Frigate II)
 Daynora (Assault Frigate II)
 Echelon One (Assault Frigate II)
 Echelon Two (Assault Frigate II)
 Gallant Haven (Assault Frigate II)
 Illian (Assault Frigate II)
 Ina’angs Star (Assault Frigate II)
 Neladeen (Assault Frigate II)
 Paragon (Assault Frigate II)
 Pe’aty (Assault Frigate II)
 Shayan (Assault Frigate II)
 Storm Wind (Assault Frigate II)
 Theed’s Reach (Assault Frigate II)
 Thunderflame (Assault Frigate II)
 Titanius (Assault Frigate II)
 Vindicator (Assault Frigate II)
 18+ Bulk Cruisers (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruisers)
 Diligent (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Urjani (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Gallant (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Defiant (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Stalwart (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Lion Heart (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Resolute (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Endurance (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Constant (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Ceaseless (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Persistance (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Sword (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Guard (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Protector (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Sentry (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Shield (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Perseverance (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 Rebel Star (Rendili StarDrive Bulk Cruiser)
 9+ Quasar Fire class Cruiser-Carriers (many, dozens?)
 DukeDoom (Quasar Fire-Class Cruiser-Carrier)
 Flurry (Quasar Fire-Class Cruiser-Carrier)
 Battle Dog (Quasar Fire-Class Cruiser-Carrier)
 6 Other Virgillian Cruiser-Carriers
 6+ Kuat Drive Yards Escort Carrier (several?)
 Gallant (Escort Carrier)
 Eleusis (Escort Carrier)
 Prowler 1 (Escort Carrier)
 Prowler 2 (Escort Carrier)
 Eclipse 1 (Escort Carrier)
 Eclipse 2 (Escort Carrier)
 18+ Marauder-class Corvette (dozens?)
 Retribution (Marauder Corvette)
 Aeolus (Marauder Corvette)
 Agamemnon (Marauder Corvette)
 Albion (Marauder Corvette)
 Bellerophon (Marauder Corvette)
 Bonaventure (Marauder Corvette)
 Cadmus (Marauder Corvette)
 Canopus (Marauder Corvette)
 Devaron (Marauder Corvette)
 Indefatigable (Marauder Corvette)
 Maidstone (Marauder Corvette)
 Speedwell (Marauder Corvette)
 Swiftsure (Marauder Corvette)
 Tribune (Marauder Corvette)
 Triton (Marauder Corvette)
 Undaunted (Marauder Corvette)
 Venerable (Marauder Corvette)
 Venturer (Marauder Corvette)
 1+ Alderaanian Gunship
 Another Chance (Alderaanian Gunship)
 1+ Fleet Hauler
 Steadfast (Fleet Hauler)
 97+ CR90 Corellian Corvettes
 Wind (CR90 Corvette)
 Droo (CR90 Corvette)
 Bixby (CR90 Corvette)
 Korolev (CR90 Corvette)
 Arrow (CR90 Corvette)
 Kiva (CR90 Corvette)
 Lauhu (CR90 Corvette)
 Hart (CR90 Corvette)
 Veed (CR90 Corvette)
 S’bow (CR90 Corvette)
 Python 1 (CR90 Corvette)
 Python 2 (CR90 Corvette)
 Eridain (CR90 Corvette)
 Talon (CR90 Corvette)
 Lance (CR90 Corvette)
 Sharky (CR90 Corvette)
 Spear (CR90 Corvette)
 457 (code name) (CR90 Corvette)
 457 (code name) (CR90Corvette)
 457 (code name) (CR90 Corvette)
 NovaFlare (CR90 Corvette)
 Pushti (CR90 Corvette)
 Trident (CR90 Corvette)
 Ranger (CR90 Corvette)
 Burke (CR90 Corvette)
 James (CR90 Corvette)
 Old Republic (CR90 Corvette)
 Coen (CR90 Corvette)
 Dodonna’s Pride (CR90 Corvette)
 Farrely (CR90 Corvette)
 Saki (CR90 Corvette)
 Ullet (CR90 Corvette)
 Ignat (CR90 Corvette)
 Storm (CR90 Corvette)
 Omicron (CR90 Corvette)
 Intrepid (CR90 Corvette)
 Shantipole (CR90 Corvette)
 Retribution (CR90 Corvette)
 Emancipator (CR90 Corvette)
 Frazier (CR90 Corvette)
 Wind (CR90 Corvette)
 Swift (CR90 Corvette)
 Quick (CR90 Corvette)
 Arrow (CR90 Corvette)
 Haste (CR90 Corvette)
 Nimble (CR90 Corvette)
 Agile (CR90 Corvette)
 Race (CR90 Corvette)
 Eagle (CR90 Corvette)
 Hawk (CR90 Corvette)
 Falcon (CR90 Corvette)
 Comet (CR90 Corvette)
 Shooting Star (CR90 Corvette)
 Sparrow (CR90 Corvette)
 Nova (CR90 Corvette)
 Boreas (CR90 Corvette)
 Zephyrus (CR90 Corvette)
 Arrow (CR90 Corvette)
 Burke (CR90 Corvette)
 Coffey (CR90 Corvette)
 Jeffrey (CR90 Corvette)
 Freedom’s Messenger (CR90 Corvette)
 Mahan (CR90 Corvette)
 Manx (CR90 Corvette)
 Master (CR90 Corvette)
 Rancor’s Tooth (CR90 Corvette)
 Raze (CR90 Corvette)
 Sonnel (CR90 Corvette)
 Stellar Damsel (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 1 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 2 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 3 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 4 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 5 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 6 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 7 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 8 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 9 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 10 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 11 (CR90 Corvette)
 Athega 12 (CR90 Corvette)
 Yogi 1 (CR90 Corvette)
 Yogi 2 (CR90 Corvette)
 Yogi 3 (CR90 Corvette)
 16+ Modified CR90 Corellian Corvettes
 Masanya (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Croisade (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Python (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Salu (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Frop (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Tondar (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Lothar (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Kiva (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Skuld 1 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Skuld 2 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Werger 1 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Warger 2 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Creodont 1 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Creodont 2 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Creodont 3 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Creodont 4 (Modified CR90 Corvette)
 Crescent 1 (CR90 Corvette)
 Crescent 2(CR90 Corvette)
 Crescent 3(CR90 Corvette)
 Crescent 4(CR90 Corvette)
 Crescent 5(CR90 Corvette)
 Striker 1(CR90 Corvette)
 Striker 2(CR90 Corvette)
 Striker 3(CR90 Corvette)
 Hammer 1(CR90 Corvette)
 Hammer 2(CR90 Corvette)
 Hammer 3(CR90 Corvette)
 DS 1(CR90 Corvette)
 DS 2(CR90 Corvette)
 26+ DP-20 Corellian Gunships (many more, near the hundreds)
 Chandi (Corellian Gunship)
 Ensaiav (Corellian Gunship)
 Ghorman's Honor (Corellian Gunship)
 Mastala (Corellian Gunship)
 Telsor (Corellian Gunship)
 Spear (Corellian Gunship)
 Walerev (Corellian Gunship)
 Hawkeye (Corellian Gunship)
 GS-138 (Corellian Gunship)
 Active (Corellian Gunship)
 Adventure (Corellian Gunship)
 Bruizer (Corellian Gunship)
 Diligence (Corellian Gunship)
 Incomparable (Corellian Gunship)
 Mediator (Corellian Gunship)
 Orion (Corellian Gunship)
 Thrasher (Corellian Gunship)
 Strathadam (Corellian Gunship)
 Warspite (Corellian Gunship)
 Vindicta (Corellian Gunship)
 Kingsmill (Corellian Gunship)
 Victorious (Corellian Gunship)
 Watchful (Corellian Gunship)
 Thracian (Corellian Gunship)
 Pervail (Corellian Gunship)
 Lance (Corellian Gunship)
 40+ Medium Transports
 ATS-0121 (Medium Transport)
 ATS-0157 (Medium Transport)
 ATS-0014 (Medium Transport)
 ATS-0416 (Medium Transport)
 ATS-0022 (Medium Transport)
 ATS-0021 (Medium Transport)
 C-17 (Medium Transport)
 Echo C-130 (Medium Transport)
 Kucedre (Medium Transport)
 Jowa (Medium Transport)
 Thon’s Orchard (Medium Transport)
 Quantum Storm (Medium Transport)
 Limnate (Medium Transport)
 Kucedre (Medium Transport)
 Raider (Medium Transport)
 Luminous (Medium Transport)
 Tuima (Medium Transport)
 Anuto (Medium Transport)
 Anuti (Medium Transport)
 Hoopaju (Medium Transport)
 Dutyfree (Medium Transport)
 Notus (Medium Transport)
 Eurus (Medium Transport)
 Rescue 1 (Medium Transport)
 Rescue 2 (Medium Transport)
 Rescue 3 (Medium Transport)
 CC 4 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS 4402 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS 44 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS-22 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS-28 (Code Name) (Medium Transport
 TRN-3228 1 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 TRN-3228 2 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 TRN-3228 3 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS-9980 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS-5620 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 ATS-111 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 T-37 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 T-38 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 T-39 (Code Name) (Medium Transport)
 14+ Mobquet Transports
 Raider 1 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 2 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 3 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 4 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 5 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 6 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 7 (Mobquet Transport)
 Raider 8 (Mobquet Transport)
 4 Mobquet Transports supplied by Aratech
 2 Container Transports supplied by Quasar Cargo
 1+ Action Transport
 Seniag (Modified Action Transport)



Magnum 1 (Container Transport)
Magnum 2 (Container Transport)
Magnum 3 (Container Transport)
Juno 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Juno 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Juno 3 (Cargo Ferry)
Juno 4 (Cargo Ferry)
Juno 5 (Cargo Ferry)
Juno 6 (Cargo Ferry)
Fanir 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Fanir 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Rongo 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Rongo 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Fanir 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Fanir 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Atrivis 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Atrivis 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Atrivis 3 (Cargo Ferry)
Athega 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Athege 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Athega 3 (Cargo Ferry)
Nobu 1 (Cargo Ferry)
Nobu 2 (Cargo Ferry)
Nobu 3 (Cargo Ferry)
Nobu 4 (Cargo Ferry)
Lundi (Cargo Ferry)
Orrian (Cargo Ferry)
Charlie (Cargo Ferry)
Tango (Cargo Ferry)
Nicko (Cargo Ferry)
Lausbee (Cargo Ferry)
Gefion (Cargo Ferry)
Freedom 1 (Heavy Lifter)
Freedom 2 (Heavy Lifter)
Freedom 3 (Heavy Lifter)
Freedom 4 (Heavy Lifter)
Freedom 5 (Heavy Lifter)
Freedom 6 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 1 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 2 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 3 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 4 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 5 (Heavy Lifter)
Beetle 6 (Heavy Lifter)
Weevil 1 (Heavy Lifter)
Weevil 2 (Heavy Lifter)
Weevil 3 (Heavy Lifter)
Weevil 4 (Heavy Lifter)
5CFNGR 1 (Heavy Lifter)
5CFNGR 2 (Heavy Lifter)
5CFNGR 3 (Heavy Lifter)
5CFNGR 4 (Heavy Lifter)
5CFNGR 5 (Heavy Lifter)
Pobel (Modular Conveyor)
Keholt (Modular Conveyor)
Lara 1 (Modular Conveyor)
Lara 2 (Modular Conveyor)
Rakan 1 (Modular Conveyor)
Rakan 2 (Modular Conveyor)

Val 1 (Transport)
Val 2 (Transport)
Val 3 (Transport)
Val 4 (Transport)
Val 5 (Transport)
Samol 1 (Transport)
Samol 2 (Transport)
Samol 3 (Transport)
Samol 4 (Transport)
Samol 5 (Transport)
Samol 6 (Transport)
Samol 7 (Transport)
Samol 8 (Transport)
Samol 9 (Transport)

Freight Transport/C Raimi
Freight Transport/C Tsore
Freight Transport/C Belit
Freight Transport/C Coen

Bulk Freighter Haumia
Bulk Freighter Seri
Bulk Freighter Mara
Bulk Freighter Walo
Bulk Freighter Kiety
Bulk Frt Ojai
Phoenix
 Bo 1 (Bulk freighter)
 Bo 2 (Bulk Freighter)
 D3RM3 (Bulk Freighter)
 Khan 1 (Bulk Freighter)
 Khan 2 (Bulk Freighter)
 Khan 3 (Bulk Freighter)
 Op Mus
 Dobll 1
 Dobll 2
 Dobll 3
 Dobll 4
 Pl’eeh 1
 Pl’eeh 2
 Radley

Guril 1 (Freighter)
Guril 2 (Freighter)
Guril 3 (Freighter)
Guril 4 (Freighter)
Vetoun (Freighter)


 Xityiar Transports

 Xizor Container Transports of various types
 Various other warships (hundreds?)
 Various other Transports and freighters (hundreds)
 526-754 Rebel starfighter squadrons (various types)
 Corellian Light Freighters
 Millennium Falcon
 X-wing starfighters
 Y-wing starfighters
 A-wing starfighters
 B-wing starfighters
 Red Group (X-wings) (A-wings)
 Green Group (A-wings)
 Gold Group (Y-wings) (Falcon)
 Grey Group (Y-wings) (B-wings)
 Blue Group (B-wings) (A-wings)
 V-wing starfighters
 ARC-170 starfighters
 Z-95 starfighters
 Cloakshape Fighters
 Other wings of starfighters, likely mixed



 Carrack-class corvettes
 Xityiar Transports
 Xizor Container Transports of various types
 Other Alliance warships and transports

So you're basing your assumption on the book's.... title? Even then, the Rebel Alliance existed beyond the battle at Endor.

Immediately after Endor, it was called the 'Alliance of Free Planets' and 1 month after Endor, it was formally declared the New Republic. And Book Titles are important, yes.

"Judge a book by its' cover" (not always good, but often somewhat of an indicator)

Even regular Impstar battleships do all that, and they're not specifically designated communications ships in the text.

Imperator warships are flagships/commandships for smaller Imperial fleets with mainly Carrack, Strike, Broadside and Tartan Patrol warships with likely Victories or 1-2 other Imperators. They aren't commandships for Sector or Galactic campaigns (though they can be modified to do that; like Chimaera)

When you get right down to it, aside from how many guns, ships, and kilometers Executor has, she's really not all that special.

Um, what you mentioned is a lot. And Executors lead Sector and Oversector fleets, like Whelm and Azure Hammer Command

Which is essentially what I've been saying...

oops....

Pellaeon certainly knew. The NEC, contradicting "Who's Who" (which says Teshik fought on alone for three hours), states Pellaeon retreated only after Teshik's ship was disabled.

So he fought After Eleemosynary was disabled then? I need to reread that, must's read it wrong.

So after Eleemosynary was disabled, then he ordered the retreat. That's not unlawful, we don't know who, if anyone had a higher rank. And the ship was boarded and IIRC, Teshik surrendered the ship so it's not unlawful; Teshik's orders were voided then.

Of course, it's an in-universe NR propaganda piece, and with Pellaeon in charge of the Remnant, accusing the leader of their newest ally of insubordination, desertion, dereliction of duty, and downright treason aren't the smartest things.

Hahaha...nice, but wasn't the original version published before the Pellaeon-Gavrisom treaty or something like that? And technically, Pellaeon is elected by the Moff Council; the Moff Council needs to authorize fleet actions, but Pellaeon has some power too.

If Pellaeon didn't know about Teshik, no one would have written he fought alongside Teshik until his flagship was disabled. Instead of lying to preserve his reputation, they would have rationalized his actions.

The NEC is a new source, just cam eout in the last year or something? So Pellaeon did do lawful things; there probably was no one higher up who fought.

I think you'll find the affects of Palpatine's and Executor's losses are overexaggerated. (I've been waiting to cart out these quotes from the TaB sourcebook)

Oooh

"This event [Executor's destruction] seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet--the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off. While the decrease was not substantial, it was noticeable." -pg. 8

The Imperial Fleet was also closer to the DS after following the Alliance warships there, the Alliance assumed their screen and continued to fight the Imperial Fleet.

and you forgot rate of fire, as well as position and other factors, and the Imp Fleet was scattered around the DS and could be at a disadvantage; communications were harder as the Comm ship and Executor went down, if there were any task forces the fleet was divided into these would be as far as some ships could communicate; when DSII blew up comms were virtually non--existant for a few minutes/hours.

And the ROTJ novelization mentions how the DS II crews panicked when Palpatine died, how some crewers shot at random places, how some did nothing, some fled, etc.

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded. In fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor. Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field. Despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four more hours." -pg. 9

Some ships did surrender, Teshik and another ship I forgot. The crew did escap eon a stolen Reb transport out the system though.

Of course we do. A combination of the sourcebook and "Who's Who?" reveals the Imperial fleet (which Pellaeon commandeered) withdrew a full hour after the Death Star exploded. More than enough time for the Grand Admiral to reach his ship.

You said that he fought on for 4 hours with Teshik until Teshik was captured.

Irrelevant. Pellaeon ordered a retreat he had no authority to issue and abandoned the highest officer in the Imperial fleet to death.

Likely after the ship was captured an dhe couldn't do anything; Chimaers took decent damage already, Pellaeon was promoted to Captain because the other captain was KIA.

Already dealt with above.

Granfd Admiral Thrawn said that. He knew Palpatine's tactics and strengths.

Don't be a fool. There's no protocol in the Imperial military that magically makes an Imperial officer become a warlord.

Palpatine deliberately designed the Empire not to survive without him, to disintegrate and fall apart, it did but took 7 years for all authority to go. A few did desert as soon after they heard of the Endor defeat/Palpatine's Death. The Moff of Kashyyyk did.

Harrsk's desertion had to be caused by something, and Pellaeon's gross ineptitude is that catalyst.

He wanted to build his own Empire; he had his task force flee to the Deep Core after seeing DSII blow up.

Xenophobia and sexism were not institutional policies of the Empire. There was nothing preventing Daala from rising in the ranks save for her gross incompetence, which is plain for all to see in how she handled her week-long rule of the new Remnant.

She ended a civil war, motivated people, brought up morale and diplomatically expanded the remnant out of the Deep Core?

Daala did nothing but murder a bunch of warlords and then throw away a sizable fleet on a disasterous military endeavour.

Only a few (5-10 say) Victories went down. Knight Hammer's crew survived. the 17 ISDs hurled out survived, only had hyperdrive problems and there were nearby fortreww worlds to help them.

[The Original Nex]

Pellaeon certainly knew. The NEC, contradicting "Who's Who" (which says Teshik fought on alone for three hours), states Pellaeon retreated only after Teshik's ship was disabled.

So he fought After Eleemosynary was disabled then? I need to reread that, must's read it wrong.

So after Eleemosynary was disabled, then he ordered the retreat. That's not unlawful, we don't know who, if anyone had a higher rank. And the ship was boarded and IIRC, Teshik surrendered the ship so it's not unlawful; Teshik's orders were voided then.

No, he ordered the retreat BEFORE Teshik was captured. NEC is in contradiction with WW:IGA. As NEC is in-universe a New Republic historical document and propaganda piece, it is more likely to be in error than the OOU WW article.

In any case even if Pellaeon ordered the retreat after Teshik's capture it would STILL HAVE BEEN A GROSS VIOLATIONS OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. We DO know that there were higher officers present. ADM Harrsk for one, as well as EVERY OTHER CO PRESENT. It was illegal nomatter how you cut it.

If Pellaeon didn't know about Teshik, no one would have written he fought alongside Teshik until his flagship was disabled. Instead of lying to preserve his reputation, they would have rationalized his actions.

The NEC is a new source, just cam eout in the last year or something? So Pellaeon did do lawful things; there probably was no one higher up who fought.

EVEN IF we accept the NEC as the priority source (which is a questionable assumption at best), Pellaeon's order was illegal.

I think you'll find the affects of Palpatine's and Executor's losses are overexaggerated. (I've been waiting to cart out these quotes from the TaB sourcebook)

Oooh

"This event [Executor's destruction] seemed to trigger a significant demoralization throughout the Imperial fleet--the accuracy of Imperial fire dropped off. While the decrease was not substantial, it was noticeable." -pg. 8

The Imperial Fleet was also closer to the DS after following the Alliance warships there, the Alliance assumed their screen and continued to fight the Imperial Fleet.

and you forgot rate of fire, as well as position and other factors, and the Imp Fleet was scattered around the DS and could be at a disadvantage; communications were harder as the Comm ship and Executor went down, if there were any task forces the fleet was divided into these would be as far as some ships could communicate; when DSII blew up comms were virtually non--existant for a few minutes/hours.

And the ROTJ novelization mentions how the DS II crews panicked when Palpatine died, how some crewers shot at random places, how some did nothing, some fled, etc.

Mass panic does not excuse Pellaeon's order.

"Contrary to popular opinion, the Imperial fleet did not surrender after the Death Star exploded. In fact, the Alliance accepted no Imperial surrender at Endor. Imperial troops are generally disciplined and experienced fighters, and the men at Endor were the finest that Palpatine could field. Despite the battle's sudden reversal in momentum, the fighting raged on for nearly four more hours." -pg. 9

Some ships did surrender, Teshik and another ship I forgot. The crew did escap eon a stolen Reb transport out the system though.

Capture and surrender are not necessarily the same thing. I don't recall any ships explicitly giving up and surrendering, the captured vessels were beaten down with ion cannon fire and were boarded.

Of course we do. A combination of the sourcebook and "Who's Who?" reveals the Imperial fleet (which Pellaeon commandeered) withdrew a full hour after the Death Star exploded. More than enough time for the Grand Admiral to reach his ship.

You said that he fought on for 4 hours with Teshik until Teshik was captured.

So says the NEC which is (IU) a New Republic document written with a New Republic bias. OF COURSE they would want to make Pellaeon, the man they are now tentatively allied with, look like a competant and heroic officer. The SWI article does not have a notational IU author and would be a more authoritative source.

Irrelevant. Pellaeon ordered a retreat he had no authority to issue and abandoned the highest officer in the Imperial fleet to death.

Likely after the ship was captured an dhe couldn't do anything; Chimaers took decent damage already, Pellaeon was promoted to Captain because the other captain was KIA.

Pellaeon left BEFORE Teshik was captured.

And no, Pellaeon was not promoted to Captain. He was already a post-Captain though he was only the XO of the Chimaera. Upon the death of the Chimaera's CO Pellaeon became acting CO of the ship. However that gives him NO authority to the NUMEROUS senior COs who he ordered to retreat. It was an illegal circumvention of the CoC.

Harrsk's desertion had to be caused by something, and Pellaeon's gross ineptitude is that catalyst.

He wanted to build his own Empire; he had his task force flee to the Deep Core after seeing DSII blow up.

Wrong. He left the Empire at Annaj AFTER the retreat, upon furiously discovering that his command was usurped by Pellaeon. Not immediately upon seeing the Death Star explode.

Xenophobia and sexism were not institutional policies of the Empire. There was nothing preventing Daala from rising in the ranks save for her gross incompetence, which is plain for all to see in how she handled her week-long rule of the new Remnant.

She ended a civil war, motivated people, brought up morale and diplomatically expanded the remnant out of the Deep Core?

Oh god, it's a Daala fanboy...

Yea she did do that. Through deception and murder. Not exactly a diplomatic consolidation of the remnants. And what did she do upon gaining all this war material and man power? She promptly SQUANDERS it with an attack on the Jedi.

Daala did nothing but murder a bunch of warlords and then throw away a sizable fleet on a disasterous military endeavour.

Only a few (5-10 say) Victories went down. Knight Hammer's crew survived. the 17 ISDs hurled out survived, only had hyperdrive problems and there were nearby fortreww worlds to help them.

[/quote]

The fact that the ships survived says nothing of her ability.

[TC Pilot]

Warsie: "Like I said, I never said anythig gabout 'preferable' I simply said that the idea that it never happened was bad."

Then your argument is a frivolous waste of my time. Don't nitpick worthless differences in word choice and drag it out over pages.

Not to mention the fact that Ackbar might not know the entire military history of the Galaxy; he knew about Tarkin's tactics which included Dodonna's tactics that Tarkin used and improved, some Clone Wars-era tactics, etc

Irrelevant. Still a waste of time. If you have anything that actually matters, out with it.

And no, the Rebel Fleet did not 'barely' survive, only 1/5 of th efleet was taken down.

Time to cart out that helpful TaB sourcebook:

"Mere hours after the Battle of Endor, Ackbar's valiant fleet lies all but shattered." Opening crawl

"Ackbar's armada was little more than a slow moving target..." pg. 10

"Even a token Imperial fleet--two or three Star Destroyers from the Endor fleet--could cause incredible damage to the vulnerable Alliance armada. Hopefully the Alliance would be ready for another battle, or at least be prepared for a full retreat." pg. 10

"even a small Imperial battlegroup could wipe out the entire Alliance fleet." pg. 12

1/5 of all Rebel fighters were outright destroyed, and only 25% of Ackbar's capital ships were even in any condition to fight. Only TWENTY-FIVE percent of the Rebellion's ENTIRE fleet could actually fight. pg. 9

Frankly put, your list is wrong, incomplete, and inaccurate.

Immediately after Endor, it was called the 'Alliance of Free Planets' and 1 month after Endor, it was formally declared the New Republic. And Book Titles are important, yes.

Very well then. I'll humor your ridiculous basis for your claim. Guess what? Ackbar disagrees with you. You're wrong.

Imperator warships are flagships/commandships for smaller Imperial fleets with mainly Carrack, Strike, Broadside and Tartan Patrol warships with likely Victories or 1-2 other Imperators. They aren't commandships for Sector or Galactic campaigns (though they can be modified to do that; like Chimaera)

Oh, modified to lead galaxy-wide campaigns? I see. Please, enlighten me how the Chimaera was modified. Let me guess, Colonel Cronus had a modified Victory-class Star Destroyer when he led 112 of them in a cross-galaxy campaign. Mon Mothma was modified when it led whole fleets of New Republic ships, didn't it? Please.

The only thing different about Executor, or any ship that large, from an Imperial-class, is length, guns, and crew.

"

Um, what you mentioned is a lot. And Executors lead Sector and Oversector fleets, like Whelm and Azure Hammer Command

"

No, what I mentioned was superfulous details in scale. Executor and her sister ships exist because the Emperor likes big toys, not because they're practical or even needed in the slightest.

there probably was no one higher up who fought.

Correction: there was. Unless EVERY Star Destroyer captain died, Pellaeon vastly overstepped any authority he had. He knew Teshik was out there, he abandoned the GRAND ADMIRAL, and deserves to be shot. End of discussion.

and you forgot rate of fire, as well as position and other factors, and the Imp Fleet was scattered around the DS and could be at a disadvantage; communications were harder as the Comm ship and Executor went down, if there were any task forces the fleet was divided into these would be as far as some ships could communicate; when DSII blew up comms were virtually non--existant for a few minutes/hours.

Ah, so Palpatine's battle meditation affected rate of fire, positions, and other factors, but not accuracy?

Tell me, is the idiocy a side-affect of trektard exposure, or a local problem?

And the ROTJ novelization mentions how the DS II crews panicked when Palpatine died, how some crewers shot at random places, how some did nothing, some fled, etc.

Nooo, ROTJ mentions how Death Star crews panicked. Palpatine's influence is your hypothesis.

You said that he fought on for 4 hours with Teshik until Teshik was captured.

No, you're an idiot who can't read or judge sources properly.

Likely after the ship was captured an dhe couldn't do anything;

Not likely; definately before the ship was disabled.

Granfd Admiral Thrawn said that. He knew Palpatine's tactics and strengths.

Grand Admiral Thrawn also didn't know he was a pawn in Palpatine's grand plan and an expendable diversion.

She ended a civil war, motivated people, brought up morale and diplomatically expanded the remnant out of the Deep Core?

The last one is an outright fabrication. The rest are guesses on your part.

Only a few (5-10 say) Victories went down. Knight Hammer's crew survived. the 17 ISDs hurled out survived, only had hyperdrive problems and there were nearby fortreww worlds to help them.

What's greater? A couple VSDs, a brand new SSD, a flotilla of ISDs crippled, and a planetary landing force obliterated, or a bunch of irrelevant civilian targets and a minor starfighter repair yard?

[Stark]

If he posts that list again, I'll fucking slap him. It's five pages long, fuckknuckle. Summaries are good, completely worthless lists with every ship ever mentioned in a fucking computer game are bad.

[Batman]

Well, that saves me the bother of having to post it. Thank you, Stark.