What would you want in a Nation-State's Constitution?

Post by **Steve** » 2003-01-06 10:26pm

Okay, would-be nation-builders, what would you want to see in a Constitution for a Nation-State?

You could always go the cheap route and adapt a modern one, or, perhaps, make one yourself.

Special kudos to those who have the time to actually write out an ideal state constitution.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-06 11:04pm

I want to see:

Genuine seperation of church(es) and state.

Freedom of Speech.

Freedom of and from religion.

Seperation of courts and state (appointing of judges etc is not political).

Guarantee of privacy (no Information Awareness Agency of shit like that, warrants needed to tap phones, enter premises etc. Also have a guarantee that any espionage upon citizens will be punished [like bombing the shit out of the nearest ECHELON station])

Seperation of corporate sector and state.

Severe limitations on political finance etc.

National Service (3 or 4 years service to be started between the ages of 17 and 25, not just military, but can be in any government/state position).

Education - Free and a-theistic (no church sponsorship of schools, and education from Kindergarten to Yr12 is guaranteed and free, nominal fees for University, but nothing that much)...

More soon.

[continuing]

The PRIVILEDGE to bear arms (ownership of weapons is determined on a neccessity basis, or possibly due to the national service provisions, in a method similar to Switzerland).

Bicameral Parliament, with the head of government elected by the parliament and head of state elected by the people.

REALLY significant and realistic checks and balances on government and individuals within.

A criminal justice system with no set penalties. The punishment should fit the crime. Juries will be 12 peers who will determine guilty or not guilty, then a panel of 3 magistrates shall determine the penalty. Capital punishment is reserved for the most heinous of crimes.

Drugs will be legal, but will have the hell taxed out of them.

Fines shall be assessed according to income. As such a billionaires parking ticket will be astronomical compared to that of an average student.

Healthcare will be public, there will be no such thing as private healthcare except for cosmetic and other non-medicinal works. Healthcare will also be free to all who require it.

Corporate citizens shall be subject to the same laws as other citizens.

Competition policy will be strictly enforced.

[more later, I might even compile this into a proper document]

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-06 11:11pm

All right, here goes:

This is the Bill of Rights only:

1. Freedom of (or from) Religion, Assembly, Speech, and of the Press
2. The right to bear arms
3. The Right to Due Process and Trial by Jury
4. The Right to face One's Accusers
5. The Right to be free from Arbitrary Arrest or Long Imprisonment
6. The Right to Vote for Representative Government
7. The Right to own Property
8. The Right to be Free of Chattel Slavery
9. The Right to Equal Protection under the law, regardless of race, creed, color, or country of national origin
10. The Right to Equal Opportunity Regardless of Race or Sex
11. The Right to Self-Government by Direct-Voting
12. The Right to Means of Mass-Communications
13. The Right to all Scientific Knowledge
14. The Right to Knowledge of all Government Activities
15. The Right to be free from Involuntary Military Service
16. The Right to Immigrate or Emigrate
17. The Right to Free Education
18. The Right to Practice any Profession
19. The Right to Opportunity for Useful Employment
20. The Right to Initiate Enterprises
21. The Right to Invent and Implement New Technologies
22. The Right to Build, Develop Natural Resources, and Improve Nature
23. The Right to Have Children
24. The Right to a Comprehensive Legal System Based on Justice and Equity
25. The Right to be free from Extortionate Lawsuits
26. The Right to Privacy

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-06 11:24pm

jaeger115 wrote: 2. The right to bear arms

Why? With a decent police force and military this should not be neccessary.

11. The Right to Self-Government by Direct-Voting

Great idea, but how the hell are you going to implement it?

12. The Right to Means of Mass-Communications

Meaning what?

14. The Right to Knowledge of all Government Activities

Will never happen. To have knowledge of ALL government activities means that the government can be easily crippled economically or physically by an enemy with that knowledge.

jaeger115 · Post by **jaeger115** » 2003-01-06 11:27pm

Why? With a decent police force and military this should not be neccessary.

Ever hear of police corruption?

[/u]

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-07 12:03am

Something on the lines of "Sea Skimmer shall be proclaimed God Emperor for life and after" That depends of course if I'm to be in charge of or life under this document.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-07 12:05am

I agree with Skim. Declaring oneself Lord God Emperor of all the universe is a must

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-07 12:07am

weemadando wrote:
jaeger115 wrote:
12. The Right to Means of Mass-Communications
Meaning what?

I would assume meaning nothing like China's shutting down of cyber-cafes, claiming they're unsafe, removing at least tens of thousands (I think it's more like hundreds of thousands) of computers from public use.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-07 12:13am

well considering how people keep dying because of illegal net cafes..............

i had a thought tho. something ive never seen in a constitution is a provision for smooth regime change. When the soviet union collapsed into the former states, there should have been some protocol as to what should happen etc. perhaps an enforcer group (akin to the Rangers from B5?) that is meant to prevent destructive warfare between the two factions when there is a clear a decided imbalance in power and force. Or something.

PhantomFive · Post by **PhantomFive** » 2003-01-07 12:32am

"Why? With a decent police force and military this should not be neccessary."

On the contrary, it's not only necessary, it's vital. Without the freedom to bear arms, all other freedoms can become moot when those who HAVE arms choose to remove them. Unless you enjoy trusting your safety and liberty to others, you need the right to bear arms.

P5

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2003-01-07 12:57am

Every right has an equal repsonibility.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-07 01:19am

Indefinite copywrite.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-07 01:41am

Yes. Right to bear arms is necessary to keep the government from going corrupt and the populous not being able to do anything about it.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-07 01:43am

n00b trying to get away from barrage of poking!

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-07 01:54am

PhantomFive wrote:"Why? With a decent police force and military this should not be neccessary."

On the contrary, it's not only necessary, it's vital. Without the freedom to bear arms, all other freedoms can become moot when those who HAVE arms choose to remove them. Unless you enjoy trusting your safety and liberty to others, you need the right to bear arms.

P5

Bollocks. Are you telling me that bearing arms protects your rights, or that it gives you the right to dictate terms to the government?

Take one fucking look around you. What are those people called?

Terrorists.

Look at Timothy McVeigh and the whole host of other extremist militia wackos.

If people truly felt threatened by the government in the US they'd vote them out of office - or worse: sue them. Those that use violence against a democratically elected government or its representatives, or worse: civilians to pressure the government are no better than those who would seek to opress these people.

Mr Flibble · Post by **Mr Flibble** » 2003-01-07 02:02am

PhantomFive wrote:"Why? With a decent police force and military this should not be neccessary."

On the contrary, it's not only necessary, it's vital. Without the freedom to bear arms, all other freedoms can become moot when those who HAVE arms choose to remove them. Unless you enjoy trusting your safety and liberty to others, you need the right to bear arms.

P5

I sense that this could devolve into a gun control debate.
An armed populace does little to restrict the government's ability to remove freedoms. In the even of a government removing people's rights most would sit back and hope nothing would happen to them. Some would support the governments actions and some would be against it. The effect wqould be roughly neutralizing and the military would tip the balance. If a large proportion of the population is against the government's actions then a proportion of the military is likely to be against it, since the military is a part of the population. In any case goverments removing freedoms would do it in small steps with justifications (e.g. anti terrorism measures which restrict freedoms) and very few people woul realise what is going on until it is too late, and guns are removed anyway. All an armed public does is give criminals easier access to weapons.

Now that said I will return to the topic I would post a bill of rights, but reading WeeMadAndo's again, it is pretty much what I would have but I would also include:

The right to vote for government, but also the right not to vote.

All ministers would have to have at least one economic adviser and one scientific adviser.

Although I agree in principal with free healthcare and eduction for all, funding this would be very expensive. Hopefully drug taxes and taxing of religions would make up for this cost though, but it still wouldn't leave much money to spare.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-07 02:08am

Oh...

A BIG ONE for me:

Conscience voting on every issue.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-01-07 12:06pm

weemadando wrote:Oh...

A BIG ONE for me:

Conscience voting on every issue.

How could you guarantee that?

Lemme see some more ideas, and then I'll post my Constitution.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-07 12:18pm

Fuck All.

Read that however you like.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-01-07 12:27pm

To get back on track...

I'd get rid of medium and minimum security prisons. It makes me sick to think that bastards like the Enron guys are probably going to go to a minimum-security "resort." Also, I'd force the gov to decide whether prisons were punishment or rehab. This "a little of both" bs we have going...well...

I'd also try to make elections based on the issues. Have the only information available to the public be something along the lines of "Candidate A: anti-abortion, pro-gun-control, Cadidate B: pro-choice, anti-medicare" or some such.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-01-07 12:48pm

legalize drugs and tax them
separate church and state
lower legal age to look at porn to 0
going to university which is free here, will cost money ( i´m not sure if that will improve things but i´ll give it a 10 year try).
get rid of conscription

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-01-07 02:02pm

Hmm...

I think the words of George Carlin would work well for me.

But the first thing I would do is remove from every place I can any restrictions regarding a person's race, gender, creed and sexual orientation. If I had things my way, we would indeed have gay black atheists in high places, or asian lesbians in my cabinet (hehehehe), and would allow homosexuals in the military. I'd also remove any and all restrictions on interpersonal relationships, i.e. any sexual practice which does not hurt either user to a significant degree.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-01-07 02:41pm

Not exactly a Consitution, but more of a Bill of Rights. As for a set up of the goverment, something simular to the US would work.

1. Freedom of speech and movement. All citizens are entitled to free speech as long as said speech is not slander. All citizens have the right to move freely and move their personel property freely inside the boarders of the country.

2. Freedom of and from reliegion. You can practice what you want as long as you do not intrude on others rights. All reliegions including (anti)reliegions such as atheism is not to be practiced as a staple of goverment and will not be used as a requirement of goverment or public activities.

3. Innocent until proven Guilty. All citizens are assumed innocent until their guilt can be proven in a court of law. No citizen is to be forced to testify against him/her self, nor able to incriminate him/her self.

4. Freedom of private property. All citizens are free from unreasonable search and seizers of their property without due process and probable cause presented to a court of law.

5. Freedom from persicusion and discrimination. All citizens have the right not to be judged based on their race, color, creed, ethnisity, gender, and/or sexual orientation either in goverment or in the public domain.

6. All elected officials are limited to one term of goverment. Anyone elected to goverment is limited to the one term he/she was elected to fill.

7. All elected officials must be of an age of, or older than 35 years. All elected officials must be a citizen of the country and a resident of the area inwhich they wish to represent.

8. All elected officials are restricted from recieving any gifts, money, and or services while in office. Any private financial holdings must be turned over to a third party for managment while the elected official is in office.

9. Any and all citizens are able to vote for elected officials without restriction.

10. Right of protection. Knowing that goverment can not protect every individual at all times, the right of the individual citizen to defend him/her self or for the collective good of the comunity defend someone else, should not be denied. The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms will not be denied.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-07 04:24pm

Mandatory Voting
No to dual party or whatever it's called. That thing that makes it so that big corporations or church can't pressure a candidate because they're giving all the money or whatever.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-01-07 06:34pm

Steve wrote:
weemadando wrote:Oh...

A BIG ONE for me:

Conscience voting on every issue.
How could you guarantee that?

Lemme see some more ideas, and then I'll post my Constitution.

You could guarantee it by not having a party system... But that leads to other problems. Without party-block voting the party system isn't neccessary. By having effectively 2 houses of independants you could form micro-parties that changed from issue to issue, (hopefully) leading to genuine representation of the people will.

I'll clarify the system later.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What would you want in a Nation-State's Constitution?

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