Selling Your Soul

[Lord of the Abyss]

There's no way I could verify that he was telling the truth when I asked him exactly what a soul was and what selling it means, so I'd pass. It's tempting, but not that tempting.

...well, since he's an ultra-powerful entity whom you're not sure is telling the truth or not...what's stopping him from taking from you without your consent? Or just atomizing you if you don't give him what he wants? Or any number of other hypothetical scenarios you could branch off from the main one?

From the information given in the OP, he's telling the truth about his want for your soul. He's telling the truth about the contract. He's telling the truth about his ability to bestow incredible powers upon you. He's obviously a rather powerful thing. If you run with the assumption that he's lying about something, you're conceding that this entire scenario is useless because then there's nothing really stopping him from giving you a drastically painful death.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that if he's going through all this trouble in the first place, he's likely telling the truth. If he was lying, why say he wants your soul? Why not claim he wants your appendix, and just take the soul instead?

Most plausibly, he's just one of many of his kind, whatever they are. If they have laws, then it's quite possible they have laws against simply yanking people's souls or torturing them until they "agree" to hand them over. Unless there are such laws that's what I'd expect him to do, unless he's morally superior to humans as well as more powerful.

[18-Till-I-Die]

As-is, I believe I and you and everyone is soul-less and won't go anywhere upon death.
Going by my understanding of what a soul is though, were I to sell it, instead of going somewhere magical and great or terrible and awful, I'll just... cease to exist as I already expect to upon death.

I'd sell it in a heartbeat. (but as I said, that depends if my understanding of a soul is correct)

Thats not exactly how it works, acording to most lore.

The basic idea is, in most cases, while your chances of going somewhere good or bad in the Afterlife are dependant on how you act on Earth...in almost EVERY piece of literature the selling of one's soul is a DEFINITE trip to Hell. As in lake of flames, tortured and mutilated and raped till whenever the Devil gets spacked down from Judgement Day and everyone gets set free...which could be millennia, or weeks, or a billion years.

There is practically no...i mean none whatsoever...examples of selling one's soul that does not lead to eventual punishment. Sometimes the punishment is in teh details of the wish itself (see: Wishmaster) while other times it happens in a more subtle way (see: Faust).

[Lord of the Abyss]

There is practically no...i mean none whatsoever...examples of selling one's soul that does not lead to eventual punishment. Sometimes the punishment is in teh details of the wish itself (see: Wishmaster) while other times it happens in a more subtle way (see: Faust).

Well, not none; I can think of a few.

In Your Soul Comes C.O.D. by Mack Reynolds a guy sells his soul for forty years of prosperity and happiness. When he dies, after a lifetime of general benevolence, his first comment is that his destination doesn't look at all like he thought Hell would. "My dear Norman, why is it that so many suppose that souls are of less interest to us than to our adversaries ? I am not a demon, nor is this Hell."

There's another story, don't recall the title, where the mortal ( an obsessive astronomer ) wished for the demon to remove his soul upon death and help him explore the physical universe. ALL of it. By which time the universe would have collapsed and reformed and he could start all over again . . . "A literally endless research project !"

And there's another; called The Ultimate Wish I think, where it was mentioned that then Devil was foreordained to always win unless someone made "the ultimate wish", but not to worry because the odds of that ever happening are so low . . . Then the next mortal up for a wish says "I wish that without any change whatsover in myself that I become the lonliest, sickest, stupidest, ugliest and most miserable person on the face of the Earth."

And the Devil screamed.

[Kuroneko]

Then the next mortal up for a wish says "I wish that without any change whatsover in myself that I become the lonliest, sickest, stupidest, ugliest and most miserable person on the face of the Earth." ... And the Devil screamed.

The mortal would scream too after it is found that the wish created a word-wide genocide, with one survivor. Sounds like a very depressing story; I wouldn't expect it to be a counterexample to 18-Till-I-Die's statement.

[DPDarkPrimus]

And there's another; called The Ultimate Wish I think, where it was mentioned that then Devil was foreordained to always win unless someone made "the ultimate wish", but not to worry because the odds of that ever happening are so low . . . Then the next mortal up for a wish says "I wish that without any change whatsover in myself that I become the lonliest, sickest, stupidest, ugliest and most miserable person on the face of the Earth."

And the Devil screamed.

"I wish every human soul ever would be allowed into Heaven, unconditionally."

[18-Till-I-Die]

Then the next mortal up for a wish says "I wish that without any change whatsover in myself that I become the lonliest, sickest, stupidest, ugliest and most miserable person on the face of the Earth." ... And the Devil screamed.

The mortal would scream too after it is found that the wish created a word-wide genocide, with one survivor. Sounds like a very depressing story; I wouldn't expect it to be a counterexample to 18-Till-I-Die's statement.

Wait that's what that meant?

I thought the moral was he wished for something so utterly bad that it drove the Devil crazy. Like he became so horrifying that it somehow made the Devil go insane, like looking at one of those Lovecraftian things.

Pfft. i totally would have missed the moral of that story .

Satan: "HA! Foolish being of flesh, unable to decipher complex parables! You fail!"

[18-Till-I-Die]

And there's another; called The Ultimate Wish I think, where it was mentioned that then Devil was foreordained to always win unless someone made "the ultimate wish", but not to worry because the odds of that ever happening are so low . . . Then the next mortal up for a wish says "I wish that without any change whatsover in myself that I become the lonliest, sickest, stupidest, ugliest and most miserable person on the face of the Earth."

And the Devil screamed.

"I wish every human soul ever would be allowed into Heaven, unconditionally."

There is actually some evidence for this in some scripture that was "banned" from the Bible, i think in the Middle Ages.

Basically this guy asks Jesus why is there a Hell if God forgives all sins.

Jesus basically tells him "Ok, look, dont tell anyone else but you're right, there IS no Hell, God DOES forgive all sins! You're off the hook!"

Basically Jesus goes on to imply, as i read it, that God knew humans wouldnt do the right thing for nothing so he lied to us that we would go toe Hell when he die, when in reality we all go to Paradise anyway no matter what you do on Earth. It just is an attempt to keep some of the peopel who WOULD do wrong if not for fear of Hell in check, while those who wouldnt do bad stuff anyway.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ghetto Edit:

Sory, hit submit instead of preview, let me finish that...

While those who wouldnt do bad stuff anyway have nothing to worry about. Thus Hell is a myth that God created to keep humans from destroying each other.

I believe it rationalized this, IIRC, by stating that God really just forgives pretty much everything but felt we needed something to "unite against" or else we'd fragment and self-destruct.

Basically it's the plot of Watchmen, but carried out by God.

[Lost Soal]

No, I wouldn't. As pointed out, he could define "Soul" to mean all sorts of things, especially since people use the term to mean more than just the religious concept. I'd hardly benefit from, say, having my consciousness removed and being turned into an automaton.

You are aware that the contract in question states deliverance of your soul upon your death, not the moment you sell it. So having your consciousness taking doesn't mean a damn thing if your already dead.

[Lost Soal]

As-is, I believe I and you and everyone is soul-less and won't go anywhere upon death.
Going by my understanding of what a soul is though, were I to sell it, instead of going somewhere magical and great or terrible and awful, I'll just... cease to exist as I already expect to upon death.

I'd sell it in a heartbeat. (but as I said, that depends if my understanding of a soul is correct)

Thats not exactly how it works, acording to most lore.

The basic idea is, in most cases, while your chances of going somewhere good or bad in the Afterlife are dependant on how you act on Earth...in almost EVERY piece of literature the selling of one's soul is a DEFINITE trip to Hell. As in lake of flames, tortured and mutilated and raped till whenever the Devil gets spacked down from Judgement Day and everyone gets set free...which could be millennia, or weeks, or a billion years.

Only if your selling it to the Devil or some other power of Hell, if your selling it to some trans galactic powerhouse then the soul becomes its property and neither God or Satan have a claim to it

[Medic]

Thats not exactly how it works, acording to most lore.

That makes no sense, though I'm aware of that typical school of thought.

Thing is, it seems as so long as my soul is 'in' my body, it's somewhat related to my actions. If I sell it, how is it? It's in someone else's possession. Furthermore, if I sell it and end up in eternal hellfire, the guy I sold it to obviously doesn't have it once I die. What does he get out of it in the interim, since the death of the body of his newly-bough-soul means he loses possession of it?

Hence why I figure if normally having a soul equals heaven or hell consequences, selling merely means I'd be as most atheists already believe: death leads to the cessation of consciousness and existence, and there's nothing more to it.

And for the sake of argument, why should I put any stock in the typical lore? Have they sold their souls and died as well? By definition, no one could know by experience. (unless we drag reincarnation into this goatfuck of a thread )

[18-Till-I-Die]

Uh, what makes you think you'll be unconscious during all this?

In practically every case the soul is defined as your conscious mind, there is no mythology i'm aware of where the soul is unconscios and disconnected from one's body in that way.

And you dont give him your soul now. It's a payment for services rendered. When you die he gets to take you where he is. Meaning that when you die, you wake up where ever he is.

Now maybe you want to paint some rosy picture of how this is not too bad 'cuz he's not "realluy" the devil he's a "Galactic Soul Broker from Planet X" but consider this...

If this being likes stealing souls, has vast power, and a seeming taste for Faustian deals...does he not remind you of someone? Even IF this thing is an alien, like Q or something, who has learned how to contain souls after death then why should one believe he is not the inspiration for those legends. Think about it, technology advanced enough seems like magic to a less sophisticated race. Of course our ancestors belived he was a Demon, or that his whole race were such beings. They see hellfire and brimstone, we see a society living on a highly volcanon world; they see brilliant halos and demonic features, we see bioluminous physiology and odd features denoting an evolutionary rise from bats or lizards; they see smiting from heavy and miracles, we see laser cannons and technology to manipulate matter and energy.

You could still be selling your soul to Satan...just, his name is some jibberish with fifteen letters and it's his race thats called the Sae'Tahn or something.

[Shannon]

Sorry I haven't been around to clear up some misconceptions that some people have about the OP - I was out of town for a few days.

OK, let's be clear. This being will not take your soul without a contract, for reasons unknown to you. If you turn down the deal, he/she will simply depart.

What the soul 'is' is deliberately not specified in the OP to encourage just this sort of argument (that's another way of me saying I couldn't think of a way to define it to my satisfaction for the sake of this thread)
However, as has been pointed out, it obviously has some value to this being that is greater to him/her than the potentially great power he/she could deliver unto you. It's up to you to decide whether or not the soul is worth more to you than the wish.

The soul changes hands upon fulfilment of the wish, not death. So yes, potentially you CAN manipulate the terms so that it doesn't happen for a very long time. But remember - it's specifically stated that his/her power is not infinite, simply very great. Wishing for true immortality is not a way out. You could be perpetually young or have regenerative powers, yes, but you'd be a soulless being, whatever that happens to mean.

[Shannon]

Ghetto Edit: Also, the being does not reveal his/her origins and under the terms of the contract is under no obligation to do so. It's up to you to decide whether you're dealing with a 'reputable' vendor. The quality and quantity of what they can give you are not in question; their motives and the consequences to you are, however.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Well, the fact is that they are coming to me with what is effectively a business proposal. If they are good business...er, deities, they will give me all the goddamn details of the transaction in a form I can understand before the transaction. They will do this because if they're this goddamn powerful, then they'd be smart enough to realize that anything else will get a blank refusal from me.

So, the answer is still simple: If they're unwilling to discuss the specifics, I'm not interested.

[Shannon]

Oni, you're quite correct. The specifics of the transaction, in particular the nature of the soul and therefore the consequences to the soul's owner if it is lost, are what the deal hinges on.

As has been pointed out and discussed already, the nature of the soul is in dispute, as are the consequences of losing it. And of course we can't really ask anyone who has lost it, or died while in possession of it, can we? That of course assumes that such a thing as a soul exists in the first place. For the sake of argument I'll assume it does, since that is what our mysterious vendor seems to believe.

There are examples in fantasy of people losing their souls. Those that do are usually portrayed as being cursed in some way IIRC. However, it doesn't seem to always be the case that they necessarily lose all functioning because they've lost their souls. Vampires (correct me if I'm wrong) are said to be soulless, but they still function, albeit under the effect of a curse.

This implies that the soul is not the 'origin of consciousness', or synonymous with the mind, as some believe. Rather, it seems to be more of a repository for the 'essence' of a being - wherever your soul is, that's where your consciousness goes when you die. If your soul is still in your body, then you move on to whatever afterlife you subscribe to and are dealt with accordingly. If not, you don't necessarily 'pass on'. For example, Elric's sword Stormbringer was said to consume souls IIRC - so the people it killed had their 'essence' drawn into the blade when they were killed by it, and the soul was consumed by the sword-entity.

But there do seem to be at least some consequences to not being in possession of your own soul, and still alive. A friend commented to me recently that if he lost his soul, but still lived, wouldn't that make him 'undead'? I'm not sure about that, but I've read the occasional story where the soulless protagonist notices a difference in their life - changes in mood or behaviour, inability to enjoy things, inability to feel emotions and sensations as before, and suchlike. Such things could be relatively minor, but as the nature of the soul would have to be spelt out in the said contract, you'd probably get a fair idea of the consequences of losing it while still alive, if any.

Note that I'm not saying that the entity in the OP will consume your soul or consign it to some Hell-dimension (or Heaven-dimension for that matter). I'm deliberately leaving motivations and intentions vague with respcet to that.

[Starglider]

I've read the occasional story where the soulless protagonist notices a difference in their life - changes in mood or behaviour, inability to enjoy things, inability to feel emotions and sensations as before, and suchlike.

In that case you're clearly just signing a lifetime contract to permit some of your neurochemicals to be harvested (presumably by some undetectable-to-contemporary-science means).

If true I'd certainly go for it, for what has the comics industry taught us if not that being able to do arbitrary amounts of good is worth a little personal anguish?

[Napoleon the Clown]

Like almost everyone else, I'd demand to know what a soul was, what the consequences of selling it would be, and that all this information be put into the contract with a claus stating that if they are untrue I will have my soul returned while retaining whatever power was given to me. If the entity refuses to comply, it can go fuck itself with a hypernova.