Another interesting factor to consider, as pointed out in the Trek Powers with an ISD thread, is that if a ship is going flat out shooting shit all over the place It'll soon run out of energy and supplies. A corvette or even a frigate trying to glass a planet will run out of power for the weapons and then all you have is another box in space. An ISD may be able to go years or months without re-supply, but what if it's constantly active. In later EU arround the Hand Of Thrawn time the Errant Venture was falling apart, half it's guns where out of action and verious facilities where wonky. And that was in an area where there are shipyards that can accomodate an ISD, the Trekverse has nothing so substantial nor the resources.
Pounder, you're forgetting, that's more than hald a decades worth of wear and tear without Imperial trained tech specialists, have a couple of small cargo ship men crew an Iowa, and you get an analogue.
What about the Sun Crusher? Would that be able to get around all the major systems in one fuel load?
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It only carried 11 torpedoes, so although it could obliterate the Federation from a political standpoint there would still be surviving ships/colonies to rebuild afterwards.
Get busy living or get busy dying... unless there’s cake.
Darth Tanner wrote:It only carried 11 torpedoes, so although it could obliterate the Federation from a political standpoint there would still be surviving ships/colonies to rebuild afterwards.
Does the ship have to destroy everything on it's own? Or can it destroy enough to leave the Federation weakened enough so that all the other powers start thinking it's easy meat and try to carve as much of it up for themselves as possible?
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Oh I'd imagine that if Sol went out in a puff of solar fire then the Romulans at the least would immediatly move into eradicate everything, especially Vulcan.
And as Earth represents practically the entirety of Federation command and control as well as training and ship construction capabilities then even the third rate powers like the Ferengi, Sheliak and Tholians are going to have a heyday fighting over the shattered remnants of Federation territory.
Get busy living or get busy dying... unless there’s cake.
The sun crusher as we all know forces a star to go super nova regardless of size (which I belive can't happen in real life ever) by fireing a ressonance torpedoe and is only capable of being destroyed by a black hole due to being made of quantum crystilline (not even anti-matter will put so much as a scorch mark) the resulting super nova of said torpedoe destroys the star's entire system (planets , comets,asteroids , and moons) therefore it is overkill (it can't completely destroy the feds but it can easily destroy the most important systems like the solar system and the vulcan system) . Also I have changed my opinion on what can destroy the feds a Municifent class frigate would be overkill a Recusant class light destroyer would do the job.
This has gone on for long enough now feel the wrath of a 64x64x64km burning space rock!
Where does the 'immune to antimatter' bit come from?
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It did state only a black hole will finish it off for good so I am assuming that means anti-matter will destroy it (then again i am 13 and have not treaded to much in physics despite my 140 iq).
This has gone on for long enough now feel the wrath of a 64x64x64km burning space rock!
Lord_Sturm wrote:It did state only a black hole will finish it off for good so I am assuming that means anti-matter will destroy it (then again i am 13 and have not treaded to much in physics despite my 140 iq).
You stated anti-matter will NOT destroy it, actually. Not that I recall where the Black Hole one comes from either, but I certainly don't recall all of Wars.
Nevertheless a black hole destroying stuff and M/AM interaction doing so work on slightly different mechanisms if memory serves. So 'will survive up to but not including black hole level thermal/mechanical/radiation damage' does NOT equal 'will survive contact with antimatter'.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Can I be contraversial and say one ship potentially isn't going to be able to do it (death star notwithstanding). The maths would seem to indicate a single ship, even an ISD *could* be brought down by the Federation.
Before anyone reacts in horror I'll do the maths and you can work it out from there.
Based on the data on this website that suggests and ISD shields have in the order of 1e19 joules energy absorbing characteristics it would seem the Federation does have a method for overcoming that. They could ram it at warp.
Remember the Enterprise was prepared to do that during their second encounter with the Borg.
If we consider a 100,000 tonne ship, which isn't large for the ST universe, moving at warp one then we have a kinetic energy figure around 5e10^24 joules or around 1000 Teratons - more than enough to punch through an ISD's shields and leave a nice ship-sized hole all the way through the ISD (and a fast moving, expanding ball of plasma out the other end).
All of this is of course assuming the Imperial Captain decides to stay out of hyperspace long enough to fight the Federation fleet and for them to set up this manouever.
Given these figures even much smaller ships would do the job. 1000 metric tonnes should still be able to carve out a neat slice through and ISD.
I could argue that even destroying the ship as it was on its kamikazi approach wouldn't help, certainly not at close range as the ship's mass will continue forward (although I'm not sure how long it would take for the ship's remains to drop to sublight after the warp field collapses) to strike the ISD's shields.
Before anyone flames me for being a trektard or some other such shite, I'm not, I've just thought of a way given ST technology that they could potentially bring down something like a single ISD. Yes that's a win for the Federation, but so what, the OP calls for the Imperials to be severely handicapped. If my maths are wrong then fine, tell me, it'll be an honest mistake.
Where did you get the figure of 5e24 J? Did you plug the ship's mass and c into the Newtonian kinetic energy equation?
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The Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor had three Imperator's drop out of hyperspace directly on it, the only thing scorching was Vaders temper, we know that Trek can't travel at the speed any military-grade Wars ship can, and then there's the matter of will they think about it, in all their fights with the Borg they didn't.
General Schatten wrote:The Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor had three Imperator's drop out of hyperspace directly on it, the only thing scorching was Vaders temper, we know that Trek can't travel at the speed any military-grade Wars ship can, and then there's the matter of will they think about it, in all their fights with the Borg they didn't.
Well, when you're talking about a civilzation that takes two years to build a warship, kamikaze attacks aren't the best idea.
The Vortex Empire wrote:two years to build a warship, kamikaze attacks aren't the best idea.
Absolutely not - we're talking about an invading ship bent on the destruction of the Federation. I severely doubt it'd be the first thing they'd try, more an act of desperation after losing dozens of ships without leaving a scratch on the ISD, but given Riker was ready to give the order to ram the Borg with the Enterprise (at warp) in order to save Earth it's not a tactic without precedent.
Surlethe wrote:Where did you get the figure of 5e24 J? Did you plug the ship's mass and c into the Newtonian kinetic energy equation?
I realise I'm being "naughty" by using Newtonian physics, but Einstein doesn't really help us when it comes to a number. Mass moving at C = infinite mass = infinite energy. The Newtonian kinetic energy I suppose would be the bottom end of what the energy actually is.
Regardless of the numbers does anyone want to suggest an ISD shields are going to repel a 100,000 tonne object or even a 1000 tonne object moving at the speed of light?
RTS wrote:but given Riker was ready to give the order to ram the Borg with the Enterprise (at warp) in order to save Earth it's not a tactic without precedent.
My bad, I didn't know of this incident, however, there's still the matter that a Wars ship has shown the ability to shrug off three objects 1/17th it's size moving at a fraction of or greater than c and slamming into it without anyone being surprised.
General Schatten wrote:The Executor-class Star Dreadnaught Executor had three Imperator's drop out of hyperspace directly on it, the only thing scorching was Vaders temper, we know that Trek can't travel at the speed any military-grade Wars ship can, and then there's the matter of will they think about it, in all their fights with the Borg they didn't.
Actually they did, but never carried it out. I'm not really clear on the fictional physics of hyperspace or what happens at the transition between hyperspace and normal space. I know you get the impressive acceleration/decceleration which I assume is the tranisition back to normal space physics i.e. from lightspeed downwards then the shield capacity would seem to be orders of magnitude greater than e20 joules.
If that's the case then the Federation is fucked
General Schatten wrote:My bad, I didn't know of this incident, however, there's still the matter that a Wars ship has shown the ability to shrug off three objects 1/17th it's size moving at a fraction of or greater than c and slamming into it without anyone being surprised.
Hmmmm. There seems to be a discrepancy in the numbers (or I'm not fully appreciating what's being said) on the site. According to one page "An ISD1 can unleash more than 6E19 joules (14,000 megatons) of energy with a full broadside." and according to another the Acclamator Heavy guns unleash 200 gigatons with each shot, or 8.4E20 joules - an order of magnitude per shot above an ISD1 broadside. I was working with the lower, first set of figures. If I'd worked with the second set (in which a full volley from an acclamator delivers 1E22 joules) I would have had a different picture.
RTS wrote:Hmmmm. There seems to be a discrepancy in the numbers (or I'm not fully appreciating what's being said) on the site. According to one page "An ISD1 can unleash more than 6E19 joules (14,000 megatons) of energy with a full broadside." and according to another the Acclamator Heavy guns unleash 200 gigatons with each shot, or 8.4E20 joules - an order of magnitude per shot above an ISD1 broadside. I was working with the lower, first set of figures. If I'd worked with the second set (in which a full volley from an acclamator delivers 1E22 joules) I would have had a different picture.
You have a quote? Because an ISD1 still has medium with a bigger reactor we can safely assume slightly more power and heavy guns that are typically put in the 3-16 TT range, also the Acclamator doesn't have heavies, it has Mediums.
General Schatten wrote:My bad, I didn't know of this incident, however, there's still the matter that a Wars ship has shown the ability to shrug off three objects 1/17th it's size moving at a fraction of or greater than c and slamming into it without anyone being surprised.
Hmmmm. There seems to be a discrepancy in the numbers (or I'm not fully appreciating what's being said) on the site. According to one page "An ISD1 can unleash more than 6E19 joules (14,000 megatons) of energy with a full broadside." and according to another the Acclamator Heavy guns unleash 200 gigatons with each shot, or 8.4E20 joules - an order of magnitude per shot above an ISD1 broadside. I was working with the lower, first set of figures. If I'd worked with the second set (in which a full volley from an acclamator delivers 1E22 joules) I would have had a different picture.
IIRC the page that Wong wrote re: the ISD was some time ago, and prior to alot of the new information that has come out and fleshed out Wars ships. He was using a lower limit for the ISD.
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