That's what was wonderful about Chrono Trigger. Not only do the actions you perform and the order you do them in matter, you can get many alternate endings according to when you defeat the main bad guy, and what order you do the events in.Cao Cao wrote:A prime example of no choice RPGs would have to be Suikoden V (which is a great game mind you).
You play a Prince in a country that only has Queens, at one point you're given the option to declare yourself King in a rebellion instead of following the plot.
Except if you do.. the game ends right there, your character apparently gets assassinated. So this game not only doesn't give you choices, it punishes you for thinking it does.
The Japanese should not make RPGs.
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- General Zod
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yeah, on paper it sounds cool, or when you first learn about them from that one guy in the game, but when it actually gets down to it, its true, most of them were just cuz "ill do it cuz its evil and fun!"DPDarkPrimus wrote:Except that 90% the Closed Palm choices were still "I'm going to be a dick" choice, rather than what you actually said.Darth Ruinus wrote:Jade Empire for the Xbox (yeah its old now, but still cool) was kinda like this, in that game there isnt an evil or good way, but what they call a open palm and closed fist way, which when you actually read the responses and reasoning for, (that you select) its more like "Im going to let this town die, because it will let the stronger people live and that will strengthen the town as a whole" instead of "ill let them die cuz its fun"Spearfish wrote:On a similar note, a problem with many RPGs (for example, KotOR) is that one is shunted towards an extreme end of the moral spectrum. It's either "I'm a freakishly nice person who would do anything for anyone!" or "I will kill everything for virtually no reason, and generally act like a 1960s Bond villian." and very little in between.
It's very hard to walk a path of "I'll act for the good of all people, but frankly I'm not above the use of morally questionable tactics to achieve this, and I don't see why I can't line my pockets at the same time."
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- Sean Hannity Forums user Avi
"And BTW the concept of carbon based life is only a hypothesis based on the abiogensis theory, and there is no clear evidence for it."
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- Jade Falcon
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One of the most atmospheric RPG's in my opinion has been Planescape:Torment on the PC.
I've pretty much given up on Japanese RPG's now because a lot of them seem too samey. I had Dragon Quest:Quest for the Cursed King on my PS2, and it looked not bad but the gameplay itself was just uninspiring. Arc:Twilight of the Spirits was at least interesting in as such that you had two very different characters.
I've pretty much given up on Japanese RPG's now because a lot of them seem too samey. I had Dragon Quest:Quest for the Cursed King on my PS2, and it looked not bad but the gameplay itself was just uninspiring. Arc:Twilight of the Spirits was at least interesting in as such that you had two very different characters.
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
Who nonetheless followed the exact same plot with the exact same outcome.Jade Falcon wrote:Arc:Twilight of the Spirits was at least interesting in as such that you had two very different characters.
They're only different in that one character says he will destroy all humans and the other one.. er.. doesn't. And the one that says he will never does. He doesn't even try. Both characters end up fighting the same land-grabbing promise-breaking technology-abusing baby-eating kitten-killing evil empire.
"I do not understand why everything in this script must inevitably explode."~Teal'c
- Starglider
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Planescape:Torment had ridiculously good writing and very good visual design. Unfortunately the actual gameplay was merely competent; it didn't have the technical depth or scope of Baldur's Gate 2, though it had more dramatic depth and scope.Jade Falcon wrote:One of the most atmospheric RPG's in my opinion has been Planescape:Torment on the PC.
Unfortunately Ace Combat 5, probably the best game of the excellent Ace Combat series, suffered from serious JRPG bleed. I just couldn't take any of the characters seriously, as no conceivable pilot would spout hippie philosophy crap in the middle of a damn dogfight. Well ok, maybe in a bad anime.
- The Grim Squeaker
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Precisely the same problem (Though to a far larger degree) as with KOTOR and Never winter Nights compared to its sequels by Obsidian.Starglider wrote:Planescape:Torment had ridiculously good writing and very good visual design. Unfortunately the actual game-play was merely competent; it didn't have the technical depth or scope of Baldur's Gate 2, though it had more dramatic depth and scope.Jade Falcon wrote:One of the most atmospheric RPG's in my opinion has been Planescape:Torment on the PC.
Better plot, writing, scope, less cliches but technically unfinished and horrifically buggy even months after release.
As a side note, I've FINALLY gotten PS:T and am playing it as we speak.
To be brutally, horribly honest I find it over-rated. It is very good with excellent dialogue but it isn't blatantly superior to, say the Fallout games in versatility and lacks the size and sheer polish of BG2. (I do love the setting of the planes, though Sigil cant gives me aneurysms).
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
The really superb stuff mostly only shows up after you get access to the 2 wards that are not the starting slums (its been a while since I played, I think they're named Clerk's ward and, dammit, something), and especially when you start your tour around the multiverse. Which is to be expected since the platitudes leaped on it are based on the game's examinations of the protagonist and the various moral and philosophical questions he (or rather, his existence) raises. Kind of hard to do that at the beginning where you really do not know anything about the (amnesiac) protagonist. My only complaint about that part is that it pretty much puts you on rails compared to even the rudimentary free-form up until then.DEATH wrote:As a side note, I've FINALLY gotten PS:T and am playing it as we speak.
To be brutally, horribly honest I find it over-rated. It is very good with excellent dialogue but it isn't blatantly superior to, say the Fallout games in versatility and lacks the size and sheer polish of BG2. (I do love the setting of the planes, though Sigil cant gives me aneurysms).
So, stick with it, and I think you'll find it rewarding.
- 18-Till-I-Die
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You know i should point out that, actually, i rarely play RPGs anymore. In fact Japanese RPGs practically destroyed any enjoyment i can have in them because i realized this...
It's identical to my real life in every way that matters.
How so?
Work hard for little pay? Check.
No respect? Check.
No power over my fate? Check.
Random fights? Check.
People i know chatter incoherently? Check-a-roo.
Wierd Clothes? Ch-check out my melody.
The only difference is that RPGs require me to sit more than my actual job allows.
It's about the most rigid kind of game genre imaginable. I mean really, the only one more rigid is the Puzzle Game and thats because, by definition, ALL puzzle games MUST contain at least one puzzle. RPGs have innumerable requirements to be considered a legit part of the genre.
So now i mostly restrict my playing to FPS games which, especially in recent years, have become more and more innovative and open ended. Example--Deus Ex, Halo, Half-Life.
Also, RTS games and straight adventure games (thrid person, platformers, etc) are becoming far more innovative. Many add knew and very cool shit to the mix like time manipulation (Prince of Persia) or psychic powers (PsiOps, Second Sight).
RPGs are basically still the same they were when i played them on the SNES. The graphics are VASTLY better, of course, but basically very little inherent change has occured that i can see.
It's identical to my real life in every way that matters.
How so?
Work hard for little pay? Check.
No respect? Check.
No power over my fate? Check.
Random fights? Check.
People i know chatter incoherently? Check-a-roo.
Wierd Clothes? Ch-check out my melody.
The only difference is that RPGs require me to sit more than my actual job allows.
It's about the most rigid kind of game genre imaginable. I mean really, the only one more rigid is the Puzzle Game and thats because, by definition, ALL puzzle games MUST contain at least one puzzle. RPGs have innumerable requirements to be considered a legit part of the genre.
So now i mostly restrict my playing to FPS games which, especially in recent years, have become more and more innovative and open ended. Example--Deus Ex, Halo, Half-Life.
Also, RTS games and straight adventure games (thrid person, platformers, etc) are becoming far more innovative. Many add knew and very cool shit to the mix like time manipulation (Prince of Persia) or psychic powers (PsiOps, Second Sight).
RPGs are basically still the same they were when i played them on the SNES. The graphics are VASTLY better, of course, but basically very little inherent change has occured that i can see.
Kanye West Saves.
That's an interesting point - it's quite easy to say that JRPGs are EXACTLY the same as back in the tile-graphics days. Even RPGs that claim to be 'flexible' usually only have binary options with a few text lines changed, but no actual overall difference to the storyline until the end. Like KotOR, for instance.
Made particularly egregious because it's the only game in the series where the characters are supposed to be professional soldiers. You'd think they worked out their issues before they applied to join the Air Force...Starglider wrote: Unfortunately Ace Combat 5, probably the best game of the excellent Ace Combat series, suffered from serious JRPG bleed. I just couldn't take any of the characters seriously, as no conceivable pilot would spout hippie philosophy crap in the middle of a damn dogfight. Well ok, maybe in a bad anime.
And Ace Combat 4 is still the best in the series, with strong competition from ACX.
- Starglider
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Mobius One in AC4 was a professional soldier, although perhaps not exactly a 'character'. The AC0 protagonists are supposed to be experienced mercenaries.Vendetta wrote:Made particularly egregious because it's the only game in the series where the characters are supposed to be professional soldiers.
But the horror of a real war (as observed from 20,000 feet) made them see the light!!1!1!You'd think they worked out their issues before they applied to join the Air Force...
Tough choice, the last three games are all good. AC4 wins on most plausible story, fewest glitches (only game where I haven't seen enemy planes blithely flying through hills) and coolest final level. AC4 is also the only game without the irritating suspension-of-disbelief-breaking 'telport you and/or enemies around the map as the scripting dictates' feature. AC5 wins on best mission design/most mission variety, having the most content, visual design (superweapons especially) and nice cutscenes. AC4 and 5 tie for best music. AC0 has the best enemy AI and the most planes/weapons, but it felt short, incoherent and vaguely unsatisfying to me. A lot of the missions were uninspired and just unfun to play, and Pixy was even more annoying on his own than all three of the AC5 wingmen.And Ace Combat 4 is still the best in the series, with strong competition from ACX.
I pick AC5 as the winner because the storyline is engrossing when you first play it (albeit a little silly), but mainly because the mission variety and scope gives it the most replay value.
AC3 still wins on 'most incomprehensible plot' and 'number of WTF? planes'.
- Arthur_Tuxedo
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Planescape is so beloved by its fans that it could literally be the greatest game of all time and still be overrated, so that's not a moniker that really means much. It's a fantastic game, an all-time classic, but it's not some transcendent experience that feels completely different than playing other good games. That's what a lot of people expect when they play a really overhyped (either by advertising or by word of mouth) game. I wouldn't quite put PS:T on the same pedastal as Fallout 1 and 2, but I'd definitely put it above the Baldur's Gate series. It's definitely superior to BG1, and BG2 would be a lot better if it were half as long. Many gamers always crow about how longer is better, but a game should be finishable before you get bored with it and move onto other things. If longer is better, than an MMO is infinitely good because it never ends.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali
"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
See, I disagree. AC4's unconventional storytelling device (following the enemy ace, not the player) means that it's story is more interesting, and it's missions are larger and more interesting. Also, AC5 is possibly the least challenging entry in the series, with only one mission, 8472, posing any risk of dying of any cause other than pilot error.Starglider wrote: I pick AC5 as the winner because the storyline is engrossing when you first play it (albeit a little silly), but mainly because the mission variety and scope gives it the most replay value.
(Though to be fair, even AC4 isn't as tough as ACX. End of Deception II is probably the hardest Ace Combat mission I've ever played, even with quite a good aircraft)
- Starglider
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It's a nice device, but the story is simpler and shorter, and the static art just isn't as good as the AC5 cinematics.Vendetta wrote:See, I disagree. AC4's unconventional storytelling device (following the enemy ace, not the player) means that it's story is more interesting,
Larger yes. More interesting, no. AC4 missions are mostly either 'kill a huge number of ground targets and beat an arbitrary score', 'kill a huge number of air targets and beat and arbitrary score' or occasionally 'kill lots of air and ground targets and beat an arbitrary score'. AC5 missions have lots of special events happening, specific targets you have to kill to advance, ground forces you actually have to protect etc. At first I thought I'd miss the return line/infinite weapon reloads, but it actually makes for better mission design when it doesn't go on for half an hour and you do actually have to conserve weapons.Vendetta wrote:and it's missions are larger and more interesting.
True. The game is only interesting at all on Ace difficulty, and even there killing every enemny on 8472 is the only genuinely tricky bit. I manage that about 75% of the time if I take the X-02.Vendetta wrote:Also, AC5 is possibly the least challenging entry in the series, with only one mission, 8472, posing any risk of dying of any cause other than pilot error.
I don't recognise the mission name; maybe it's different in your location. If you mean the very last one, it's more random than difficult, that or I haven't quite got the knack of missile jousting the ADFX-01, as sometimes you just get blown up with little you can do about it.Vendetta wrote:(Though to be fair, even AC4 isn't as tough as ACX. End of Deception II is probably the hardest Ace Combat mission I've ever played, even with quite a good aircraft)
Yes, but the AC5 cinematics feature characters who are vastly annoying in person and deadweight in battle.Starglider wrote: It's a nice device, but the story is simpler and shorter, and the static art just isn't as good as the AC5 cinematics.
I disagree. You are largely deluding yourself about the variety of missions, as they almost invariably boil down to "kill X waves of enemies", and whilst sometimes there are ground forces, protecting them is rarely more than a matter of killing one or two scripted enemies once and then ignoring them for the rest of the mission. (contrast with protecting the Davis Unit, where they will be under relatively constant attack for the course of the mission on both Rolling Thunder and Pinned Down). Really, AC5's missions are rarely anything more than "kill X waves of enemies" interspersed with cutscenes which serve mainly to highlight just how bloody annoying your wingmen are. But at the end of the day, the fact that the missions are so very easy means that replaying them merely turns to routine.Larger yes. More interesting, no. AC4 missions are mostly either 'kill a huge number of ground targets and beat an arbitrary score', 'kill a huge number of air targets and beat and arbitrary score' or occasionally 'kill lots of air and ground targets and beat an arbitrary score'. AC5 missions have lots of special events happening, specific targets you have to kill to advance, ground forces you actually have to protect etc. At first I thought I'd miss the return line/infinite weapon reloads, but it actually makes for better mission design when it doesn't go on for half an hour and you do actually have to conserve weapons.
Wrong game. End of Deception II is the last mission in Ace Combat X. Even on the "Hard" difficulty (ACX forgoes Very Easy and Expert, leavng only Easy, Normal, Hard, and Ace) it features enemies that are more aggressive and skilled than any but Ace Difficulty Yellow in AC4 or Wizard/Sorcerer in ACZ (which I find the most troublesome), and which can almost always avoid missiles, even SAAMs or QAAMs, fired at anything but point blank range, have increased durability (3 hits to kill), and spend 75% of their time cloaked until you destroy a particular target that only becomes available partway into the mission.I don't recognise the mission name; maybe it's different in your location. If you mean the very last one, it's more random than difficult, that or I haven't quite got the knack of missile jousting the ADFX-01, as sometimes you just get blown up with little you can do about it.
And if you survive that you have a tricky tunnel to fly, with a final target that is only in range for a few seconds.
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- Sith Marauder
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Funny, I found myself wishing BG2 and its expansion pack were longer. Though this is possibly because I don't want to play the game again, once with my Mercenary Sorcerer (he enjoys being a dick, but knows playing good pays better) and group composed of my two siblings (sister replaced Japanese Traitor, brother replaced Minsk), Viconia, Edwin, and the crazy Dwarf. I've been putting off finishing it because I don't want it to end.Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:It's definitely superior to BG1, and BG2 would be a lot better if it were half as long. Many gamers always crow about how longer is better, but a game should be finishable before you get bored with it and move onto other things. If longer is better, than an MMO is infinitely good because it never ends.
My only regret is that I assumed, incorrectly, that the Viconia romance would continue in Throne of Baal wherever it leaves off in Shadows of Amn. It doesn't, instead it skips to the ToB exclusive parts if you were advanced enough in the SoA plot. Dammit, if I had known I'd have finished it in the Wood Elf village, there's one place where you can do that. Instead I'm left with a gap in the plot, most annoying.
- Starglider
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Sorry, misread that, should've been paying more attention. I don't have a PSP, so I've only had a quick go on a friend's copy of ACX and I didn't get very far in. Maybe I'll take a look at it on emulation at some point (presumably in a few years time, once the PSP is dead as a platform and decent emulators are available). Or maybe someone will loan me their PSP for a week.Vendetta wrote:Wrong game. End of Deception II is the last mission in Ace Combat X.
That does sound fun.it features enemies that are more aggressive and skilled than any but Ace Difficulty Yellow in AC4 or Wizard/Sorcerer in ACZ (which I find the most troublesome), and which can almost always avoid missiles, even SAAMs or QAAMs, fired at anything but point blank range, have increased durability (3 hits to kill), and spend 75% of their time cloaked until you destroy a particular target that only becomes available partway into the mission.
Well of course, it would not be an Ace Combat game without a tricky and credibility-stretching tunnel at the end.And if you survive that you have a tricky tunnel to fly, with a final target that is only in range for a few seconds.
- Jade Falcon
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Oh don't get me wrong, very few RPG's are perfect.
LIst of my favourite RPG's that I either own, or have owned.
Fallout 1 and 2
Arcanum
Planescape Torment
Baldurs Gate 2
Anachranox
Skies of Arcadia.
For real old times sake, Buck Rogers:Countdown to Doomsday on DOS
Suikoden (building up the fortress was fun)
The Fall:Last Days of Gaia (I got hold of a German edition and an unofficial translation patch since this game was never released in the US or UK.)
Japanese RPG's can be fun, but most have far too many random fights, angsty pre teen characters and odd stories. I'm also sure I've probably missed a few others in that list above.
LIst of my favourite RPG's that I either own, or have owned.
Fallout 1 and 2
Arcanum
Planescape Torment
Baldurs Gate 2
Anachranox
Skies of Arcadia.
For real old times sake, Buck Rogers:Countdown to Doomsday on DOS
Suikoden (building up the fortress was fun)
The Fall:Last Days of Gaia (I got hold of a German edition and an unofficial translation patch since this game was never released in the US or UK.)
Japanese RPG's can be fun, but most have far too many random fights, angsty pre teen characters and odd stories. I'm also sure I've probably missed a few others in that list above.
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
- Jade Falcon
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Aye, the graphics even for the time were pretty poor, but the game was fun. It was one of the final evolutions of the old Gold Box games like Curse of the Azure Bonds, Pools of Radiance and other similiar titles.Cao Cao wrote:Yikes. I remember playing the Megadrive version of that a long time ago. It was quite fun.Jade Falcon wrote:For real old times sake, Buck Rogers:Countdown to Doomsday on DOS
Don't Move you're surrounded by Armed Bastards - Gene Hunt's attempt at Diplomacy
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
I will not make any deals with you. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own - Number 6
The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done.
- Xisiqomelir
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Shep, Squeenix will cater to you in their upcoming HD game
One of the Results of this emphasis is the fact that the game has two prominent characters, each created to appeal to a specific territory. The Japanese audience is most likely to connect with Rush Sykes, an energetic and idealistic 18 year old swordsman. On the other hand, American gamers will probably be more drawn to the dark and mysterious figure only referred to as The Conqueror. Older and battle hardened, The Conqueror is unlike Rush in almost every way. Despite this clear distinction, TLR does not force players to choose one character or the other. While interesting in its attempt to reach out to American gamers with The Conqueror, the game will be exactly the same on both shores, with Rush set up as the primary protagonist.
One of my favourite things to do in Buck Rogers is to forcibly acquire Plasma Throwers and open almost every combat round with them.Stark wrote:I still have a physical Buck Rogers Megadrive cart. That game was awesome - along with Rings of Power and Starflight, my introduction to non-rigid RPGs.Cao Cao wrote:Yikes. I remember playing the Megadrive version of that a long time ago. It was quite fun.
Not to mention the obscene amount of cash you could get by capturing mostly intact enemy ships and selling the huge amounts of scavenged armours when you got back to NEO.
Yeah, farming battle armours on RAM ships let you get super dooper power armour with shields after the second mission. A few side quests and rocket launchers/plasma throwers later, and the game is completely broken. "Lunarian needle guns" have nothing on launchers - but by lategame you absolutely needed them, because it was your six dudes against 30+ badguys (or half a dozen nigh-invincible robots).
Rings of Power had some serious problems, but it was completely freeform and quite hands-off, letting you work shit out for yourself. Of course, I was 10, and if there hadn't been a walkthru in the manual I'd have been boned on several of the ring quests. It had a wraparound map (hilariously the north and south poles wrapped around too ) vehicles, food management, and staggeringly difficult puzzles.
Starflight took that idea WAAAAY too far. Almost no instruction at all, a few dozen planets out of thousands had useful things on them... that you had to FIND or already know the general area of. Again, without the walkthrough provided I would probably never have got anywhere - but the planetside tank driving parts were awesome. Fit pontoons! Fit ice-skates! Dig in to avoid storms! Hopelessly inaccurate 'mineral scan' that didn't update to remove minerals you'd already extracted and had to stop to use!
Rings of Power had some serious problems, but it was completely freeform and quite hands-off, letting you work shit out for yourself. Of course, I was 10, and if there hadn't been a walkthru in the manual I'd have been boned on several of the ring quests. It had a wraparound map (hilariously the north and south poles wrapped around too ) vehicles, food management, and staggeringly difficult puzzles.
Starflight took that idea WAAAAY too far. Almost no instruction at all, a few dozen planets out of thousands had useful things on them... that you had to FIND or already know the general area of. Again, without the walkthrough provided I would probably never have got anywhere - but the planetside tank driving parts were awesome. Fit pontoons! Fit ice-skates! Dig in to avoid storms! Hopelessly inaccurate 'mineral scan' that didn't update to remove minerals you'd already extracted and had to stop to use!