Point Blank Range

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Since when has X-wing Alliance been considered 100% accurate? Not least even the movies Special Edition had the no. of Rebel ship rear ends changed when the Rebels moved away from the DS.

And if by anything, some XWA missions are pure wankery, and really need to be rebalanced.

[Warsie]

No, he ordered the retreat BEFORE Teshik was captured. NEC is in contradiction with WW:IGA. As NEC is in-universe a New Republic historical document and propaganda piece, it is more likely to be in error than the OOU WW article.

Okay. Sorry, what is OOU WW again?

In any case even if Pellaeon ordered the retreat after Teshik's capture it would STILL HAVE BEEN A GROSS VIOLATIONS OF THE CHAIN OF COMMAND. We DO know that there were higher officers present. ADM Harrsk for one, as well as EVERY OTHER CO PRESENT. It was illegal nomatter how you cut it.

Harrsk fled after seeing the DSII blow up, Darksaber is the source.

EVEN IF we accept the NEC as the priority source (which is a questionable assumption at best), Pellaeon's order was illegal.

fine, so possibly it was illegal. However, given the lack of communications, could Pellaeon even make contact with Teshik?

Mass panic does not excuse Pellaeon's order.

If everyone thougth the same and Pellaeon had the balls to go with what everyone was doing, yes it does.

Capture and surrender are not necessarily the same thing. I don't recall any ships explicitly giving up and surrendering, the captured vessels were beaten down with ion cannon fire and were boarded.

ISD Pulsar?

So says the NEC which is (IU) a New Republic document written with a New Republic bias. OF COURSE they would want to make Pellaeon, the man they are now tentatively allied with, look like a competant and heroic officer. The SWI article does not have a notational IU author and would be a more authoritative source.

So there could be bias, then. So If Pellaeon retreated 1 hour after DSII blew then could he even contact Eleemosynary?

Chimaera was the Second backup ship with Harrsk's ship nased now on Wookieepedia.

However, just because there was peace between the IR and the NR, does that automatically mean that they would glorfy Pellaeon? The IR was isolationist from the treaty to the Vong War.

Fine. I withdraw that claim.

And no, Pellaeon was not promoted to Captain. He was already a post-Captain though he was only the XO of the Chimaera. Upon the death of the Chimaera's CO Pellaeon became acting CO of the ship. However that gives him NO authority to the NUMEROUS senior COs who he ordered to retreat. It was an illegal circumvention of the CoC.

Ahh, rank. But Chimaera was supposedly a backup command ship to Executor and as such, woudn't Pellaeon have som authority, nto a senior commander yes I admit that>?

Wrong. He left the Empire at Annaj AFTER the retreat, upon furiously discovering that his command was usurped by Pellaeon. Not immediately upon seeing the Death Star explode.

Pellaeon gave over (or lost) command to Admiral Prittick after the retreat, around the time Harrsk became a warlord.

Xenophobia and sexism were not institutional policies of the Empire.

Care to explain the slavery of the Mon Calamari, Talz, Wookiees, Lurrians, Sullustans, high-ranking citizens of Eriadu owning non-human slaves under Imperial Rule, etc.


"The Empire justified its actions through Human superiority—it was our duty to preserve order to prevent the exploitation of lesser species. Any action in the pursuit of that goal was justified."
―Soontir Fel

There was nothing preventing Daala from rising in the ranks save for her gross incompetence, which is plain for all to see in how she handled her week-long rule of the new Remnant.

Why was she able to beat her trainers and others in simulated ship combat at the Carida Academy? why did Tarkin spend large sums of money for Slicers to find her, not knowing she was a woman?

Oh god, it's a Daala fanboy...

Yea she did do that. Through deception and murder.

The Imperial Warlords were destroying the Empire's remnants. She tried to diplomatically unite them for more than a YEAR. Because she actually attacked the NR, many respected her. She witnessed the stupid internal fighting in the Deep Core.

Not exactly a diplomatic consolidation of the remnants.

Speaking at other Imperial fortress worlds to unite them?

And what did she do upon gaining all this war material and man power? She promptly SQUANDERS it with an attack on the Jedi.

She was trying to have a symbolic victory

The fact that the ships survived says nothing of her ability.

fine.

Then your argument is a frivolous waste of my time. Don't nitpick worthless differences in word choice and drag it out over pages.

Fine, sorry.

Irrelevant. Still a waste of time. If you have anything that actually matters, out with it.

My point is that Ackbar might not have a full military history, so him saying point blank combat never happened is wrong. That was my point.

"Mere hours after the Battle of Endor, Ackbar's valiant fleet lies all but shattered." Opening crawl

COntradicted by the fact that only 1/5 of the Alliance fleet was actually destroyed

"Ackbar's armada was little more than a slow moving target..." pg. 10

With Bulwarks and Dauntless Cruisers, that is contradicted.

And they weren't a 'slow-moving' target when Ackbar ordered all fire to be concentrated at Executor; in the background an Imperator was engaging a Reef Home-type CRS. The CRS' lasers hit the ISD several times, the ISD blew up. the ISD fire didn't as accurate. (this is ROTJ)

"Even a token Imperial fleet--two or three Star Destroyers from the Endor fleet--could cause incredible damage to the vulnerable Alliance armada. Hopefully the Alliance would be ready for another battle, or at least be prepared for a full retreat." pg. 10

Most of the Imperial Fleet waas damaged as well, heavily and good protions of their guns were taken out, amoung other things.

"even a small Imperial battlegroup could wipe out the entire Alliance fleet." pg. 12

A battlegroup is much larget than a sector fleet, right?

1/5 of all Rebel fighters were outright destroyed, and only 25% of Ackbar's capital ships were even in any condition to fight. Only TWENTY-FIVE percent of the Rebellion's ENTIRE fleet could actually fight. pg. 9

Weren't similar numbers in place in the later stages of the Battle of Endor for the Rebelsr? The Alliance fleet took heavy damage, and many ships were in horirble condition but they STILL could damage the Imperial Navy heavily. and they did.

Frankly put, your list is wrong, incomplete, and inaccurate.

I admit that it is incomplete yes, but how it it wrong and inacurate.

Oh, modified to lead galaxy-wide campaigns? I see. Please, enlighten me how the Chimaera was modified.

HTTE mentions how the Admiral's Suite was modified actually.

And Saxton mentions how the bridge is larger than a normal Imperator II

Let me guess, Colonel Cronus had a modified Victory-class Star Destroyer when he led 112 of them in a cross-galaxy campaign.

Actually, 112 ships is smaller than the thousands of ships in the Endor Sector Fleet at the battle. And eys, those VSDs were modified, for one they were much faster (in realspace) than they would be earlier in the war.

Mon Mothma was modified when it led whole fleets of New Republic ships, didn't it? Please.

The Alliance didn't GIVE orders all the time, it was an ALLIANCE and such the local Rebel cells tended to be basically on their own and there would not need to be a large communications presence.

Not to mention Home One is the Command Ship and Independence was mentioned as being the Communications ship.

The only thing different about Executor, or any ship that large, from an Imperial-class, is length, guns, and crew.

And all the extra sensor domes, etc.... Executor has several backup bridges, Imperators only have 1

No, what I mentioned was superfulous details in scale. Executor and her sister ships exist because the Emperor likes big toys, not because they're practical or even needed in the slightest.

Care to explain the multi-kilometer warships used in the Clone Wars on the side of the Republic?

So you're saying basically an Imperator can coordinate the Entire Galactic Empire?

Correction: there was. Unless EVERY Star Destroyer captain died, Pellaeon vastly overstepped any authority he had. He knew Teshik was out there, he abandoned the GRAND ADMIRAL, and deserves to be shot. End of discussion.

Okay, if we use the NEC Pellaeon fought until Teshik's whip was disabled then boarded. If we use the other source He fled early.

As I said, communications were horrible for the Imperials, could Pellaeon even KNOW about Teshik?

Ah, so Palpatine's battle meditation affected rate of fire, positions, and other factors, but not accuracy?

I didn't say that it didn't affect Accuracy, I simply said that you forgot other factors.

Tell me, is the idiocy a side-affect of trektard exposure, or a local problem?

......

Nooo, ROTJ mentions how Death Star crews panicked. Palpatine's influence is your hypothesis.

The Novelization mentions Palpatine's presence being gone and in that place came panic, especially after Executor craashed and the Alliance began bombardment.

No, you're an idiot who can't read or judge sources properly.

O RLY, Cretin.

Not likely; definately before the ship was disabled.

AGAIN, I mention the bad communications/loss of communications happening at this stage of battle.

Grand Admiral Thrawn also didn't know he was a pawn in Palpatine's grand plan and an expendable diversion.

You're saying that just because Palpatine had noghri that he had Thrawn killed? No, Rukh killed him because he was informed by the other Noghri at how the Empire tricked him; Leia told the noghri and proved it that the Empire was responisble, they sended that she was Vader's daughter as well and that's why.

The last one is an outright fabrication. The rest are guesses on your part.

It's mentioned in Darksaber.

What's greater? A couple VSDs, a brand new SSD, a flotilla of ISDs crippled, and a planetary landing force obliterated, or a bunch of irrelevant civilian targets and a minor starfighter repair yard?

1. Those weren't the entire list and you know that, there were several other targets on that list and Daald did that on purpose to distract the NR.

2. Cromus had the other ships attack the secondary targets

3. Daala and Pellaeon did this because the NR Core systems were too heavily-defended and tey realized they would take too heavy losses, losses they could not take at the time.

IIt's five pages long, fuckknuckle.

And your point is, Goatse?

Summaries are good, completely worthless lists with every ship ever mentioned in a fucking computer game are bad.

My point is that even if 1/4 of the Alliance ships were in decent position, the Rebs would still be a decent strength especially given some of the ships present.

Not to mention that after Endor, like after Yavin a bunch of worlds rebelled at hearing the news and the Imperial Fleet would be busy

[Surlethe]

COntradicted by the fact that only 1/5 of the Alliance fleet was actually destroyed

A force can be "shattered" -- i.e., have its fighting effectiveness reduced to near zero -- without actually being destroyed.

[TC Pilot]

COntradicted by the fact that only 1/5 of the Alliance fleet was actually destroyed

Learn to read. "Shattered" does not contradict any percentage of ships destroyed. NOTHING that I have said contradicts the 1/5 destruction. Only your idiocy makes you think it does.

With Bulwarks and Dauntless Cruisers, that is contradicted.

Ever heard of... hmm, I don't know, DAMAGE?

And they weren't a 'slow-moving' target when Ackbar ordered all fire to be concentrated at Executor; in the background an Imperator was engaging a Reef Home-type CRS. The CRS' lasers hit the ISD several times, the ISD blew up. the ISD fire didn't as accurate.

Ah, so one ship of unknown condition fights another ship of unknown condition and suddenly it represents the condition of the whole fleet?

Most of the Imperial Fleet waas damaged as well, heavily and good protions of their guns were taken out, amoung other things.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

A fraction of the Imperial fleet could have emasculated the "shattered" remnants of the Alliance military. That's why a lone Star Destroyer could fight the entire Rebel fleet for three hours, genius.

A battlegroup is much larget than a sector fleet, right?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/context

HTTE mentions how the Admiral's Suite was modified actually.

Gotta have an art gallery for those fleet coordinations, dontcha know?

And Saxton mentions how the bridge is larger than a normal Imperator II

Mmhmm. Let me guess: this is in the Tech. Comm. and not actually from any canonical source, right?

Actually, 112 ships is smaller than the thousands of ships in the Endor Sector Fleet at the battle.

And guess how many SSDs are in a Sector Fleet

The Alliance didn't GIVE orders all the time, it was an ALLIANCE and such the local Rebel cells tended to be basically on their own and there would not need to be a large communications presence.

I'm talking about the STAR DESTROYER, not the person. Hard for a corpse to lead fleets against the Yuuzhan Vong, dontcha know? (I guess "New Republic ships" hasn't a big enough clue)

And all the extra sensor domes, etc.... Executor has several backup bridges, Imperators only have 1

And number of sensor domes and backup bridges (ie replacements, not auxiliary or support bridges) matter in commanding a fleet how? Oh wait, it doesn't.

Care to explain the multi-kilometer warships used in the Clone Wars on the side of the Republic?

No, because there's nothing to explain because there's no information on them.

So you're saying basically an Imperator can coordinate the Entire Galactic Empire?

....um....no....

Are you saying an Executor can?

Okay, if we use the NEC Pellaeon fought until Teshik's whip was disabled then boarded. If we use the other source He fled early.

Or, we can not be blunderously stupid and use BOTH sources like any person with any sense and dismiss the contradiction in NEC as NR revisionist history. Nothing else conforms with the canon material as well.

As I said, communications were horrible for the Imperials, could Pellaeon even KNOW about Teshik?

He could and did.

I didn't say that it didn't affect Accuracy, I simply said that you forgot other factors.

Ok, so it affected accuracy less than, hypothetically, three things that loss of concentration and competence would affect less?

The Novelization mentions panic, especially after Executor craashed and the Alliance began bombardment.

Edited to fit reality.

You're saying that just because Palpatine had noghri that he had Thrawn killed? No, Rukh killed him because he was informed by the other Noghri at how the Empire tricked him; Leia told the noghri and proved it that the Empire was responisble, they sended that she was Vader's daughter as well and that's why.

That's not what I said. I said Thrawn was a pawn and an expendable diversion. Learn to read.

It's mentioned in Darksaber.

Oh? By who? Daala? Yes, she's very much in touch with reality and very objective about her own contributions.

1. Those weren't the entire list and you know that, there were several other targets on that list and Daald did that on purpose to distract the NR.

True, he did blow up a neutral planet and a museum. Critical stuff, and all. I guess I wanted to hide the all important museum strike to bolster my argument!

[Warsie]

A force can be "shattered" -- i.e., have its fighting effectiveness reduced to near zero -- without actually being destroyed.

Ahh, okay

Learn to read. "Shattered" does not contradict any percentage of ships destroyed. NOTHING that I have said contradicts the 1/5 destruction. Only your idiocy makes you think it does.

O RLY...

Ever heard of... hmm, I don't know, DAMAGE?

Actually, yes I have.

My point about fighting forces’ ability reduced to nearly ‘zero’ and the ship list is: A. Palpatine wanted the Rebels to suffer before dying; he had Jerjerrod target a smaller ship; the Liberty (the superlaser did hit other ships) and if ¼ of the Alliance Ships were able to fight, given the randomness of some ships taken out and damages, etc those ships would include some larger cruisers and Bulwarks; so even if the fleets’ fighting ability is dramatically lowered the Alliance fleet can hold off 1-2 ISDs.

Not to mention using the more damaged ships to distract/spread fire.

25% of Rebel ships stayed intact with relatively little damage. Some of those would be larger, more powerful warships. You fail

Not to mention that Mon Calamari Cruisers have at least 3 Backups; likely more so your damage claim is bad; there will be enough backup systems on Mon Cals to guarantee at least some effectiveness in combat

Ah, so one ship of unknown condition fights another ship of unknown condition and suddenly it represents the condition of the whole fleet?

That's an example of the battle of the time actually, and I mention Executor's condition. And this:

“The loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that that none of them should have trouble with”. –HTTE

The Rebel Fleet was very effective, given that you claimed that a few ISDs from the Moddell Sector Fleet could mop up the Alliance Forces.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

Imperial Fleet was damaged heavily and such wouldn't be as effective in combat.

A fraction of the Imperial fleet could have emasculated the "shattered" remnants of the Alliance military. That's why a lone Star Destroyer could fight the entire Rebel fleet for three hours, genius.

“the fleet never recovered from that fiasco. With the Executor’s leadership gone, the battle had quickly turned into a confused rout”

The battle went to shit for the Imperials this early, actually earlier and you say the Alliance could be beaten.

If the Alliance fleet was in such a horrible condition that you say it was, then why did the Imperials take such heavy losses and casualties until they withdrew (the hour or so after DSII blows up if you trust one source); why Alliance fighters could take down Executor especially given the backup bridges that could take over the Executor's controls quickly.

Why those 6 ISDs went down when you claim they could've taken down the Alliance Forces.

And Eleemosynary:

Eleemosynary is described as harassing Alliance ships for 3 hours, that doesn’t imply directly engaging the fleet in “conventional” warfare, but guerilla fighting with his warship and/or intentionally attacking the smaller shps. He didn’t make much headway in engaging the Alliance fleet you claim to be in a horible condition IF he could only ‘harass’ patrols. Also we don’t know exactly how any ships were following (OR EVEN KNEW OF) Teshik’s orders.

Gotta have an art gallery for those fleet coordinations, dontcha know?

"The number of windows clearly exceeds that of an ISD-II bridge, suggesting that this vessel is augmented for superior command and coordination capabilities. It seems likely that this bridge has twice the capacity of an ISD-II bridge. "

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... imaera.jpg

Mmhmm. Let me guess: this is in the Tech. Comm. and not actually from any canonical source, right?

He used the HTTE comic to support his claim:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/comics ... imaera.jpg

And guess how many SSDs are in a Sector Fleet

Zero. Also you forgot that Executor and Imperial Death Squadron were not part of the Moddell Sector Fleet; and that Executors tend to be assigned to Oversectors to coordinate fleets; and that the Moff from the Sector Capital is in military control

I'm talking about the STAR DESTROYER, not the person. Hard for a corpse to lead fleets against the Yuuzhan Vong, dontcha know? (I guess "New Republic ships" hasn't a big enough clue)

Oops...sorry.

Mon Mothma was modified to have Gravity-well projectors. Who knows what else was there. And we don't know how big the fleets it commanded were

And number of sensor domes and backup bridges (ie replacements, not auxiliary or support bridges) matter in commanding a fleet how? Oh wait, it doesn't.

The backup bridges could be modified to command other fleets

....um....no....

Are you saying an Executor can?

I never said that.

EDIT: To add on, it also depends on the size of the 'Galactic' Empire you know.

Or, we can not be blunderously stupid and use BOTH sources like any person with any sense and dismiss the contradiction in NEC as NR revisionist history. Nothing else conforms with the canon material as well.

Doesn't NEC outrank the other sources? As well, do you really think the New Republic would be as biased as to do that; It's different when it is an era of war but once the treaty ended, especially considering how at least 30 years passed between Endor and he wrote the second edition, as well as others comtributint to maintain a nonbiased perspectice you think he might realize mistakes, biases, etc and correct them? People will find the truth eventually, and in such an open society like the NR, someone likely did look into this and made sure this was right

He could and did.

post proof/details please.

Ok, so it affected accuracy less than, hypothetically, three things that loss of concentration and competence would affect less?

1. I humored you by looking into that quote. However the ROTJ novelization makes it CLEAR:

It’s a fact that Palpatine was conducting Battle Meditation: “For the Emperor was dead. The Central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force of the Empire was gone; and when this dark side was diffused, this nondirected---this was simply where it led.
Confusion
Desperation
Damp fear”-ROTJ novelization

And Grand Admiral Nial Declann was more into the Battle Meditation as well supplementing Palpatine; when he sensed Palpatine’s death he stopped his meditation and went to see what happened, he died when DSII blew up. Because Palpatine died, the Imperial Fleet lost.

And that the other sourcs could be intrepreted as an Imperial Bias you know

Edited to fit reality.

I thought the Imperials were disiplined, etc based on what you said.

That's not what I said. I said Thrawn was a pawn and an expendable diversion. Learn to read.

And you're saying Thrawn didn't know that. Thrawn could understand peoples' minds. he could understand what Palpatine considered valuable and not. Some sources say Eclipse was built completely over Kuat; and it functioned as a meeting place for Gand Admirals. Thrawn knows Palpatine.

Oh? By who? Daala? Yes, she's very much in touch with reality and very objective about her own contributions.

The portions I refer to were written by narrator in a non-biased perspective. Even NEC mentions that, you know the source you claim that has a heavy NR bias,

True, he did blow up a neutral planet and a museum. Critical stuff, and all. I guess I wanted to hide the all important museum strike to bolster my argument!

It did distract the NR, right? What was her point

Again I ask:

even if the ships could not fight does not mean that they are not useful in combat; Medium Transports were of no conventional use in combat but they were being used to suicide bomb Imperators and providing other targets to spread ther fire; the other ships with almost no fighting ability would still be useful if only to distract any fire; Calamari Cruisers have a high shield recharge rate and redundant systems (at least 3 backups for everything) to the idea that they lost most fighting ability is…..weird.

If the Imperials could mop up the rebels; then why didn’t they make much headway in the hour after DSII blew up (if we say that Pellaeon retreated 1 hour after DSII’s explosion) but were still pushed back and lost 6 ISDs in battles they should’ve won (“The loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that that none of them should have trouble with”). –HTTE

“the fleet never recovered from that fiasco. With the Executor’s leadership gone, the battle had quickly turned into a confused rout” The battle went to shit for the Imperials this early, actually earlier and you say the Alliance could be beaten.

If the Alliance fleet was in such a horrible condition that you say it was, then why did the Imperials take such heavy losses and casualties until they withdrew (the hour or so after DSII blows up if you trust one source); why Alliance fighters could take down Executor; why DSII blew up then the TIE interceptors had a long chance to shoot at the Falcon and Wedge's X-wing

If their ships were in such a bad shape, (Alliance ships not neing able to fight at all) why could the Alliance ships be able to assume their orbital screen; continue to engage the Imperial Fleet (and win) and still bombard DSII effectively, causing reactor meltdowns, panic, chaos, etc.

And about accuracy, etc you admit that the accuracy went down somewhat, noticaeble. What about other things: “The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficency and disipline. The loss, in short of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit."

[TC Pilot]

O RLY...

YA RLY

My point about fighting forces’ ability reduced to nearly ‘zero’ and the ship list is: A. Palpatine wanted the Rebels to suffer before dying; he had Jerjerrod target a smaller ship; the Liberty (the superlaser did hit other ships) and if ¼ of the Alliance Ships were able to fight, given the randomness of some ships attacked, etc those ships would include some larger cruisers and Bulwarks; so even if the fleets’ fighting ability is dramatically lowered they can hold off 1-2 ISDs and 2.

Canon source saying 2-3 ISDs from the Endor fleet could inflict terrific damage > your opinion.

Some of those would be bulwarks.

Statisticly possible, but not proven.

The Rebel Fleet was very effective, given that you claimed that a few ISDs from the Moddell Sector Fleet could mop up the Alliance Forces.

I don't claim that a few ISDs from the Imperial fleet at Endor could have emasculated the Rebels, I cite a source that states they could. Canon.

The battle went to shit for the Imperials this early, actually earlier and you say the Alliance could be beaten.

I'm not saying the Imperials didn't panic. I'm saying if they stood and fought, the Rebel fleet would have been in even greater ruin than it already was.

Eleemosynary is described as harassing Alliance ships for 3 hours

Source?

"The number of windows clearly exceeds that of an ISD-II bridge, suggesting that this vessel is augmented for superior command and coordination capabilities. It seems likely that this bridge has twice the capacity of an ISD-II bridge. "

More likely the artist's inclination to draw an inaccurate ISD bridge, in my opinion.

Zero. Also you forgot that Executor and Imperial Death Squadron were not part of the Moddell Sector Fleet; and that Executors tend to be assigned to Oversectors to coordinate fleets; and that the Moff from the Sector Capital is in military control

Hmm... so, no Executors in a Sector Fleet, and the largest ships are the approximately 25 ISDs assigned to each Fleet, meaning....

Mon Mothma was modified to have Gravity-well projectors. Who knows what else was there. And we don't knwo how big the fleets it commanded were

Since there's no proof suggesting further modification, there's no reason to assume there was. From the outside, Mon Mothma looked like any old ISD.

As for the fleets, they were large enough. Large enough to enclose half of Duro in a wide defensive perimeter in TFP.

The backup bridges could be modified to ccommand other fleets

"Could be" and "modified" are key words there.

Doesn't NEC outrank the other sources?

No, of course not. Why would you think something like that?

post proof/.details please.

NEC. He had to know Teshik was still around to lie about fighting alongside him, and if he could broadcast a fleet-wide retreat order, there's no rational reason preventing Teshik from communicating his orders as well.

1. I humored you by looking into that quote. However the ROTJ novelization makes it CLEAR:

Right. Palpatine's death caused panic, like any monolithic leader's death would. Loss of battle meditation and the whole balancing of the Force just made it worse.

I thought the Imperials were disiplined, etc based on what you said.

Of course they're disciplined. Discipline doesn't override fear of a crew on a moon that's about to go supernova, though.

And you're saying Thrawn didn't know that. Thrawn could understand peoples' minds. he could understand what Palpatine considered valuable and not. Some sources say Eclipse was built completely over Kuat; and it functioned as a meeting place for Gand Admirals. Thrawn knows Palpatine.

He was also apparently oblivious to Palpatine's resurrection in the Deep Core. He had hoped Thrawn "would know better". Thrawn was just another pawn to be disposed of until Palpatine showed up again.

It did distract the NR, right?

Distract them from what? A completely unanticipated attack on a defenseless planet in the middle of nowhere? If anything, it mobolized the Republic military that was otherwise expecting uncoordinated warlord attacks at best.

Re: Summary: In short, the Imperials did not achieve the "incredible damage to the vulernable Alliance armada" simply because they did not remain on the field. Blunderous fools like Pellaeon deprived leaders of any skill (Teshik) of ships that could have been better spent eviscerating the ramshackle Rebel fleet.

It turned into a fiasco and a rout because Pellaeon capitalized on the basic emotions of otherwise well-trained soldiers. It doesn't take much to start an avalanche in that situation. A good leader could have held it all together. Pellaeon was the exact opposite.

[The Original Nex]

I'm always suprised when people defend Pellaeon's actions at Endor. It's indefensible. I doesn't matter if he knew about Teshik. It doesn't matter if Teshik was even there. Pellaeon circumvented the chain of command. He bypassed no only GADM Teshik, but also ADM Harrsk, and every other CO present at the battle, at least 20 other Captains whom Pellaeon had no authority to command. It's irrelevant that they followed the order. It's irrelevant that there was disarray, and fear among the fleet. Pellaeon usurped command of the Imperial fleet. That is all that need be factored in.

Warsie, you seem to be falling into this very trap I described earlier, that since Pellaeon is a good administrator, he MUST be a good tactician as well. Time and time again canon sources have shown him, through most of his career having no stomach for naval battle, to the point of not even trying to salvage a defeat (Bilbringi to wit). It is accepted, and indeed transcribed in the canon, that Pellaeon is brilliant at organizing for administrative purposes, as Chimaera was indeed described as "one of the best run Star Destroyers in the Empire." However, this ability seems to fall apart upon entering the fray of battle whilst in a position of command. While he seems to have improved somewhat in his years after serving Thrawn, he was rarely confident, let alone aggressive, in a combat situation.

Pellaeon's actions at Merson in the Clone Wars left him stripped of his rank (possibly as high as Commodore, in courtesy if not actual post) and apparently blacklisted as he did not regain the rank of Captain until shortly before the Battle of Endor, and even then was not placed in a position of command.

Had the events at Endor not caused utter chaos throughout the Empire, Pellaeon would have likely been severely penalized for his actions there as well, however, the state was far too occupied trying to hold the Empire together to bother with punishing incompetance and cowardice (they didn't even charge the Grand Admirals Takel and Makati for cowardly fleeing Endor rather than staying as Teshik did).

[Warsie]

sorry, i had to re-type everything when my post was deleted 3/4 through.

YA RLY

NO WAI

Canon source saying 2-3 ISDs from the Endor fleet could inflict terrific damage > your opinion.

Other canon sources showing how bad Imperial Fleet was whooped after Executor went down, examples from ROTJ movie and novelization and comics>your sources.

I don't claim that a few ISDs from the Imperial fleet at Endor could have emasculated the Rebels, I cite a source that states they could. Canon.

And I have other canon showing otherwise.

Why were they pushed back and lost 6 ISDs in a relatively-short amount of time then at Endor then if 2 could inflict “terrible damage”.

“The loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that that none of them should have trouble with”-HTTE. They didn’t inflict terrific damage, they had terrific damage inflicted on them

And the fact that the Alliance captured several Imperators at the battle; at least Accuser was relatively-intact and Pulsar’s status at capture is unknown.

I'm not saying the Imperials didn't panic. I'm saying if they stood and fought, the Rebel fleet would have been in even greater ruin than it already was.

“Yes, you continued fighting on after his death. Like Cadets”. They did fight on for another hour after DS II blew up if we claim that Pellaeon ordered a retreat then, but still took heavy losses. If they stayed longer the Alliance would simply have a bunch of extra captured Imperators to their fleet.

Source?

Can’t find exact quote but CUSWE mentions it (yes I know it isn’t canon, see link)

Eleemosynary
This Imperial Star Destroyer was under the command of Grand Admiral Teshik during the height of the Galactic Civil War. Teshik and his forces fought bravely at the Battle of Endor, harassing Alliance ships for three hours after the destruction of the second Death Star, before the Eleemosynary was finally disabled by ion cannon fire and captured.
(SWI66)
http://www.cuswe.org/search.asp?t=eleem ... EandD=EyDn

More likely the artist's inclination to draw an inaccurate ISD bridge, in my opinion.

You use an in-universe explanation for the NEC by claiming a NR bias, but you have no problem with using an out or universe explanation for this

Hmm... so, no Executors in a Sector Fleet, and the largest ships are the approximately 25 ISDs assigned to each Fleet, meaning....

Imperators can be deployed as flagships of fleets that can consist of 14-60 warships, you know :p

Since there's no proof suggesting further modification, there's no reason to assume there was. From the outside, Mon Mothma looked like any old ISD.

As for the fleets, they were large enough. Large enough to enclose half of Duro in a wide defensive perimeter in TFP.

Fleet was divided into task forces; other Capital Warships would be in command of smaller task forces of the fleet and those capital ships transmitted to Mon Mothma.

And the possibility that just because they can cover ½ of a world doesn’t mean that the ship density is particularly high you know

"Could be" and "modified" are key words there.

Imperators vary. An Imperator serving as flagship for a fleet in the Outer Rim would be modified and configured differently than an Imperator providing a destroyer role in the Core Worlds.

No, of course not. Why would you think something like that?

Sorry, but remember NEC is newer so that does give it some advantage. People were happy when they mentioned the multi-kilometer ships in the never versions of some guides and that gave some of Saxton’s things an edge, some canon status,

NEC. He had to know Teshik was still around to lie about fighting alongside him, and if he could broadcast a fleet-wide retreat order, there's no rational reason preventing Teshik from communicating his orders as well

I thought you claimed a massive NR bias. There would be others to backup his claims; if there wasn’t then that would be brought into question.

Sir, what would a NR bias towards Pellaeon achieve; the Galactic Civil War has been over for more than 10 years and the Vong war has changed the direction of attention; do you even think people would care as much? It’s known that in the Thrawn Duology the NR could possibly destroy the Imperial Remnant if it wished (be hard as hell given the Confederated state of the NR, among Imperials getting the NR to collapse in other ways).

As it is more than 30 years after Endor, any bias likely was looked over and likely was removed as soon as noticed; the GFFA government would want to be open and nonbiased and Imperial Historians, among other non-aligned, non-biased historians would look for any bias/mistakes. The Truth would come out eventually.

As well as saying Harrsk fought along with Pellaeon for 3 hours in the NEC; what would be the point of that as a NR bias?

Right. Palpatine's death caused panic, like any monolithic leader's death would. Loss of battle meditation and the whole balancing of the Force just made it worse.

They didn’t know Palpatine died yet; they only felt the withdrawal from their Dark Side high at the time and couldn’t explain it then.

Of course they're disciplined. Discipline doesn't override fear of a crew on a moon that's about to go supernova, though.

Why did ISD Virulence retreat after seeing Executor crash (X-wing: The Bacta War), or Harrsk had his task force retreat after watching DSII blow up (Darksaber). Palpatine’s Death had the entire Imperial Force present at the time go into confusion and disarray. It wasn’t just Pellaeon.

He was also apparently oblivious to Palpatine's resurrection in the Deep Core. He had hoped Thrawn "would know better". Thrawn was just another pawn to be disposed of until Palpatine showed up again.

Disposed of how? And Thrawn knows Palpatine’s mind and ways. He has even been to Byss and knows of Palpatine’s resources there. He kept in touch, he knew all the multi-kilometer warships weren’t destroyed in internecine fighting; actually only 1 was, Executor-class commandship Aggressor. He heard of ships vanishing into the Deep Core, ships ordered to retreat to fortress worlds in the Deep Core.

He’s been to Byss. He knows
The Eclipse
In construction for almost as long as either Death Star, the Eclipse is a massive capital ship orbiting the planet Byss. Almost unimaginable in length and unparalleled in firepower, the Eclipse is the largest Star Destroyer ever built, dwarfing the Super Star Destroyers and bearing within its arsenal a superlaser capable of cracking the crust of most planets. The interior of the Eclipse resembles the interior of a Star Destroyer, but also contains docking bays and repair facilities like those found on space platforms. An orbital battlestation in its own right, meetings between the Grand Admirals and other important business of the Imperial Navy take place in one of the many war rooms aboard the massive capital ship. The Eclipse is a permanent fixture in the skies above Byss, an imposing visage and display of the Imperial Navy's might.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=st ... 414planet1

Distract them from what? A completely unanticipated attack on a defenseless planet in the middle of nowhere? If anything, it mobolized the Republic military that was otherwise expecting uncoordinated warlord attacks at best.

the NR fleet was mobilized because Kyp Durron and Dorsk 81 warned their militaries about it; and given how the NR hates civilian casualties they would be forced to scatter their militaries thin, weakening and distracting them.

Re: Summary: In short, the Imperials did not achieve the "incredible damage to the vulernable Alliance armada" simply because they did not remain on the field. Blunderous fools like Pellaeon deprived leaders of any skill (Teshik) of ships that could have been better spent eviscerating the ramshackle Rebel fleet.

They stayed out there for at least and hour and didn’t make any headway. They kept losing warships to the Rebels. They had no choice but to retreat.

Remember: Supposedly invincible battlestation blows up. Chain of Command sometimes is non-existent. Flagship, also believed to be invincible goes down. Fleet is confused and feels like they’re in withdrawal from crack. Some ships took the initative and fled earlier.

It turned into a fiasco and a rout because Pellaeon capitalized on the basic emotions of otherwise well-trained soldiers. It doesn't take much to start an avalanche in that situation. A good leader could have held it all together. Pellaeon was the exact opposite.

Pellaeon ordered the retreat at least an hour after DSII blew up, assuming we believe that source. In that hour the Imperials lost many ships and were being beaten themselves. Warships were fleeing anyway

Warsie, you seem to be falling into this very trap I described earlier, that since Pellaeon is a good administrator, he MUST be a good tactician as well.

Ohh..

Time and time again canon sources have shown him, through most of his career having no stomach for naval battle, to the point of not even trying to salvage a defeat (Bilbringi to wit).

Bilbringi was horrible. Thrawn was originally in command, even before he died he was wondering whether he could win when the NR Assault Frigates attacked. Pellaeon remembered Endor and what would happen if they stayed unnecessarily long, hwo many losses they would sustain. When he ordered the retreat you can see an ISD heavily-dmaged in the background based on the comic.

It is accepted, and indeed transcribed in the canon, that Pellaeon is brilliant at organizing for administrative purposes, as Chimaera was indeed described as "one of the best run Star Destroyers in the Empire." However, this ability seems to fall apart upon entering the fray of battle whilst in a position of command. While he seems to have improved somewhat in his years after serving Thrawn, he was rarely confident, let alone aggressive, in a combat situation.

Being a nice person and treating his troops well can translate into combat; he knows when to take risks and not when to take risks. Being nice to his troops translates in his troops fighting more effectively for him, his openness allowed anyone who realized he made a mistake to tell him and not be reprimanded for it.

And ‘somewhat improved’? The Battle of Orinda where he took an aggressive lunge at the NR, and held most of his territory there, even repulsing General Wedge Antilles, Lusanyka and its’ fighter contingent and Rogue Squadron especially? Before that, he carved and built the Imperial Remnant, which was very large at the time taking several hundred thousand worlds based on some sources.

The only reason he failed at Champala was because Ackbar used blind luck and has his warships shoot the engines of the Star Dreadnought.

Pellaeon's actions at Merson in the Clone Wars left him stripped of his rank (possibly as high as Commodore, in courtesy if not actual post) and apparently blacklisted as he did not regain the rank of Captain until shortly before the Battle of Endor, and even then was not placed in a position of command.

Wasn’t that Pellaeon’s father or another relative and not Gilad Pellaeon as Pellaeon would still be very young, registering a few years earlier.

Had the events at Endor not caused utter chaos throughout the Empire, Pellaeon would have likely been severely penalized for his actions there as well, however, the state was far too occupied trying to hold the Empire together to bother with punishing incompetance and cowardice (they didn't even charge the Grand Admirals Takel and Makati for cowardly fleeing Endor rather than staying as Teshik did).

Takel and Makati were Grand Admirals. Who could or would even want to claim they were cowards; they were pragmatic. We don’t know if they tried to get Teshik to retreat or not, nothing. And I find it hard that Isard or Pestage would not want to launch some sort of investigation to see if anyone was at fault. The person in charge at Annaj didn’t say anything.

[VT-16]

Wasn’t that Pellaeon’s father or another relative

Nope, it's supposed to be him. That's a looong military career. Probably had some revitalizing therapy sessions along the way, like Duke Teta.

[The Original Nex]

Canon source saying 2-3 ISDs from the Endor fleet could inflict terrific damage > your opinion.

Other canon sources showing how bad Imperial Fleet was whooped after Executor went down, examples from ROTJ movie and novelization and comics>your sources.

Yes the Imperial Fleet was "whooped" but it wasn't inevitable that they would be "whooped." Had they been more organized, 2-3 could have inflicted terrific damage if they weren't in such disarray. These sources do not conflict with eachother.

I don't claim that a few ISDs from the Imperial fleet at Endor could have emasculated the Rebels, I cite a source that states they could. Canon.

And I have other canon showing otherwise.

Why were they pushed back and lost 6 ISDs in a relatively-short amount of time then at Endor then if 2 could inflict “terrible damage”.

“The loss of six other Star Destroyers in engagements that that none of them should have trouble with”-HTTE. They didn’t inflict terrific damage, they had terrific damage inflicted on them

At least 3 of these were lost before the destruction of the Executor.

"...that none of them should have any trouble with" IYOQ

They COULD have wiped out the Rebels, but they didn't.

I'm not saying the Imperials didn't panic. I'm saying if they stood and fought, the Rebel fleet would have been in even greater ruin than it already was.

“Yes, you continued fighting on after his death. Like Cadets”. They did fight on for another hour after DS II blew up if we claim that Pellaeon ordered a retreat then, but still took heavy losses. If they stayed longer the Alliance would simply have a bunch of extra captured Imperators to their fleet.

They lost only 3 more Star Destroyers after the Death Star was destroyed, one of which has to have been Eleemosynary, therefore the Imperial Fleet only lost TWO Star Destroyers between the loss of the Emperor and the call to retreat.

More likely the artist's inclination to draw an inaccurate ISD bridge, in my opinion.

You use an in-universe explanation for the NEC by claiming a NR bias, but you have no problem with using an out or universe explanation for this

[/quote]

If you look at the outside of an ISD there are NO true bridge windows. What appear to be windows on the interior are electronic viewports. The Executor and the Comm Ship(?) DO have exterior windows, ISDs do not.

I would have to see the comic picture in question to make a call. Are the windows explicit on the exterior of the ISD?

No, of course not. Why would you think something like that?

Sorry, but remember NEC is newer so that does give it some advantage. People were happy when they mentioned the multi-kilometer ships in the never versions of some guides and that gave some of Saxton’s things an edge, some canon status,

"New Source" does not automatically mean "Trumps All Else." The new LadyEx size is a false analogy. The reason the new sizes override the older WEG is not simply because they are newer, it's because that's what most accurately is reflected in the films. What LFL usually does when conflicts arise is to implement a "retcon" that somehow incorporates both seemingly conflicting reports into one new "authoritative" report. Since this has not been officially done to reconcile the conflicting reports of Teshik's fight and eventual capture, we can speculate that since the Insider article "Who's Who: The Imperial Grand Admirals" is written from an Out of Universe "omnicient observer," it trumps the NEC, which is notationally written by the New Republic's historians, and has potential bias.

NEC. He had to know Teshik was still around to lie about fighting alongside him, and if he could broadcast a fleet-wide retreat order, there's no rational reason preventing Teshik from communicating his orders as well

I thought you claimed a massive NR bias. There would be others to backup his claims; if there wasn’t then that would be brought into question.

I have no quarrels with the particular point. I only want to reiterate that it wouldn't matter if Pellaeon knew about Teshik's presence or not, his retreat order was illegal regardless.

Of course they're disciplined. Discipline doesn't override fear of a crew on a moon that's about to go supernova, though.

Why did ISD Virulence retreat after seeing Executor crash (X-wing: The Bacta War), or Harrsk had his task force retreat after watching DSII blow up (Darksaber). Palpatine’s Death had the entire Imperial Force present at the time go into confusion and disarray. It wasn’t just Pellaeon.

Saying "other people did it too" doesn't excuse Pellaeon of his actions. Virulence simply fled, rather than call a FULL RETREAT like Pellaeon.

He was also apparently oblivious to Palpatine's resurrection in the Deep Core. He had hoped Thrawn "would know better". Thrawn was just another pawn to be disposed of until Palpatine showed up again.

Disposed of how? And Thrawn knows Palpatine’s mind and ways. He has even been to Byss and knows of Palpatine’s resources there. He kept in touch, he knew all the multi-kilometer warships weren’t destroyed in internecine fighting; actually only 1 was, Executor-class commandship Aggressor. He heard of ships vanishing into the Deep Core, ships ordered to retreat to fortress worlds in the Deep Core.

The Ruling Council had plans to assissinate Thrawn if he got too uppity.

You sure he was aware of what was happening on Byss during his campaign? The DES states that Palpatine's machinations on Byss "the reason so many of the warships Thrawn needed had vanished into the fortress systems, forcing him to rely on the Katana fleet of lost Dreadnaughts.” Thrawn clearly DIDN'T know that the Emperor was reborn, and that he had numerous warships stockpiled at Byss. Thrawn was scrounging for ships, why would he do that if he could just request the heavy stuff from Byss?

Re: Summary: In short, the Imperials did not achieve the "incredible damage to the vulernable Alliance armada" simply because they did not remain on the field. Blunderous fools like Pellaeon deprived leaders of any skill (Teshik) of ships that could have been better spent eviscerating the ramshackle Rebel fleet.

They stayed out there for at least and hour and didn’t make any headway. They kept losing warships to the Rebels. They had no choice but to retreat.

Only two ISDs were lost between the destruction of the Death Star and the retreat.

Remember: Supposedly invincible battlestation blows up. Chain of Command sometimes is non-existent. Flagship, also believed to be invincible goes down. Fleet is confused and feels like they’re in withdrawal from crack. Some ships took the initative and fled earlier.

The chain of command was never non-existant. We have no reason to believe Daala's recollection of the events surrounding Harrsk's retreat. Even if Harrsk DID retreat right after the Death Star exploded (which is in question), the most senior commanding officer of the Star Destroyers has the authority. Pellaeon was not that officer.

Time and time again canon sources have shown him, through most of his career having no stomach for naval battle, to the point of not even trying to salvage a defeat (Bilbringi to wit).

Bilbringi was horrible. Thrawn was originally in command, even before he died he was wondering whether he could win when the NR Assault Frigates attacked. Pellaeon remembered Endor and what would happen if they stayed unnecessarily long, hwo many losses they would sustain. When he ordered the retreat you can see an ISD heavily-dmaged in the background based on the comic.

He thought "perhaps Thrawn could have salvaged a victory out of it, but Pellaeon was not Thrawn" or something along those lines and ordered an immediate retreat. Not bothering to even try and salvage the situation, and abandoned an Imperial shipyard and all it's personnel and resources to the New Republic without a fight.

It is accepted, and indeed transcribed in the canon, that Pellaeon is brilliant at organizing for administrative purposes, as Chimaera was indeed described as "one of the best run Star Destroyers in the Empire." However, this ability seems to fall apart upon entering the fray of battle whilst in a position of command. While he seems to have improved somewhat in his years after serving Thrawn, he was rarely confident, let alone aggressive, in a combat situation.

Being a nice person and treating his troops well can translate into combat; he knows when to take risks and not when to take risks. Being nice to his troops translates in his troops fighting more effectively for him, his openness allowed anyone who realized he made a mistake to tell him and not be reprimanded for it.

No, it's called "overly cautious." A good combat commander knows when an operation is worth the risk due to the importance of the objective. Pellaeon is usually overly cautious in this regard.

And ‘somewhat improved’? The Battle of Orinda where he took an aggressive lunge at the NR, and held most of his territory there, even repulsing General Wedge Antilles, Lusanyka and its’ fighter contingent and Rogue Squadron especially? Before that, he carved and built the Imperial Remnant, which was very large at the time taking several hundred thousand worlds based on some sources.

Yes, with his own SSD Reaper. And territory that was quickly lost to a renewed New Republic offensive.

The only reason he failed at Champala was because Ackbar used blind luck and has his warships shoot the engines of the Star Dreadnought.

You're thinking of Anx Minor when the EX-F was destroyed. Also Ackbar had the Guardian and at least two Fleets. He wasn't defeated out of "luck."

Pellaeon's actions at Merson in the Clone Wars left him stripped of his rank (possibly as high as Commodore, in courtesy if not actual post) and apparently blacklisted as he did not regain the rank of Captain until shortly before the Battle of Endor, and even then was not placed in a position of command.

Wasn’t that Pellaeon’s father or another relative and not Gilad Pellaeon as Pellaeon would still be very young, registering a few years earlier.

Nope, it was Gilad.

Had the events at Endor not caused utter chaos throughout the Empire, Pellaeon would have likely been severely penalized for his actions there as well, however, the state was far too occupied trying to hold the Empire together to bother with punishing incompetance and cowardice (they didn't even charge the Grand Admirals Takel and Makati for cowardly fleeing Endor rather than staying as Teshik did).

Takel and Makati were Grand Admirals. Who could or would even want to claim they were cowards; they were pragmatic. We don’t know if they tried to get Teshik to retreat or not, nothing. And I find it hard that Isard or Pestage would not want to launch some sort of investigation to see if anyone was at fault. The person in charge at Annaj didn’t say anything.

[/quote]

The Empire likely didn't want to suffer any more embarrassment by having to charge two of their vaunted Grand Admirals with cowardice and retreating in the face of the enemy. The whole incident was probably swept under the rug. Also, the Grand Admirals were initially at Endor as observers, not afloat commanders. Teshik assumed command once he got away from the Death Star. Further, since Takel and Makati didn't go to Annaj following their retreat, Prittick, the naval head of that sector, had nothing to question.

[TC Pilot]

I think Original Nex dealt with most of that as well as I would have liked to. Thank you.

There is no conflict between the TaB quotations I cited and the quotes of the disarray within the Imperial fleet and Thrawn's own commentary in HTTE. Yes, the Imperial fleet descended into chaos. No, it was not doomed to failure once the Death Star exploded. Had even a fraction of the Imperial fleet rallied, or had Pellaeon not seriously overstepped his authority, the battle would have left the Rebellion in a far more desperate situation. More likely, Ackbar would have been forced to leave the field, and essentially give the Imperials a victory. Either way, the Imperials, while still having lost the Emperor and Vader (the only loss of consequence), would have a much weaker Rebel force to contend with in the future.

While Palpatine's death was a disaster (in that Palpatine decided to kill the GA rather than let Pestage keep it intact), the loss of his battle meditation was not the deciding factor in the battle's course. Sure, the Imperials fought a little worse, but years of the best training the galaxy can afford is not washed away by a Force-fed hangover, fear, or a "bully's worst nightmare" in Jerrjerrod's case. But Pellaeon's actions set off the cascade failure in the Imperial ranks that left the Rebels in possession of the field of battle.

Other factors that contribute to how poorly the Imperials fought Ackbar's fleet are these: the sudden loss of command & control when the comm. ship was destroyed, and Lando's snap decision to send the fleet to attack the Imperials point-blank, something that, under normal circumstances - while spelling doom to the outgunned and outnumbered Rebel fleet (Ackbar's certain Star Destroyers are superior to his Star Cruisers) - would be so stupid that point-blank combat is such a rare and undesirable situation which ship crews aren't even trained for.

[bz249]

I'm always suprised when people defend Pellaeon's actions at Endor. It's indefensible. I doesn't matter if he knew about Teshik. It doesn't matter if Teshik was even there. Pellaeon circumvented the chain of command. He bypassed no only GADM Teshik, but also ADM Harrsk, and every other CO present at the battle, at least 20 other Captains whom Pellaeon had no authority to command. It's irrelevant that they followed the order. It's irrelevant that there was disarray, and fear among the fleet. Pellaeon usurped command of the Imperial fleet. That is all that need be factored in.

Warsie, you seem to be falling into this very trap I described earlier, that since Pellaeon is a good administrator, he MUST be a good tactician as well. Time and time again canon sources have shown him, through most of his career having no stomach for naval battle, to the point of not even trying to salvage a defeat (Bilbringi to wit). It is accepted, and indeed transcribed in the canon, that Pellaeon is brilliant at organizing for administrative purposes, as Chimaera was indeed described as "one of the best run Star Destroyers in the Empire." However, this ability seems to fall apart upon entering the fray of battle whilst in a position of command. While he seems to have improved somewhat in his years after serving Thrawn, he was rarely confident, let alone aggressive, in a combat situation.

Had the events at Endor not caused utter chaos throughout the Empire, Pellaeon would have likely been severely penalized for his actions there as well, however, the state was far too occupied trying to hold the Empire together to bother with punishing incompetance and cowardice (they didn't even charge the Grand Admirals Takel and Makati for cowardly fleeing Endor rather than staying as Teshik did).

Quite a good summary why Pellaeon was one of the best Imperial officer. Naval warfare is about organization, logistics and technological edge. He was good in administration, able to reshape the fleet after the rampage of the wannabee emperors. On the other hand he was a competent commander (not brilliant, but competent) who can order retreats when there is nothing to gain, but much to lost. In contrast with morons like Teshik, who decided it would be a superb idea to fight (and die) against an enemy, who has the upper-hand over a planet which has no significance at all.

[The Original Nex]

Congrats! You know how to disregard an entire section of a post you are trying to refute! Well done!

There's a difference between retreating when there's nothing to gain, but alot to lose, and retreating when fighting on will potentially cut your losses. Look at Bilbringi, he didn't even ATTEMPT to salvage the situation. Look at Endor, had he and the rest of the Imperials rallied behind Teshik they would have ANNIHILATED the Rebel fleet.

Yes Teshik was soooo stupid and moronic to think that the Imperial fleet would actually follow his commands and rout the Rebels. Why, of COURSE the Grand Admiral should have assumed an uppity panicky acting-CO would broadcast a general retreat and the rest of the fleet would have followed.

[Lord Pounder]

In fairness to Teshik he mush have done some damage to the Rebels because by the time of Truce at Bakura, a few days later, the only ship left available was a fleet carrier and a few gun ships. Plus that Fleet carrier was destroyed by a Light Cruiser the Imps had left to defend Bakura.

[Baal]

Out of curiosity why are we taking Thrawns word as gosphel?

He says that 6 Imp Stars were lost in engagements that should not have been any trouble. Sicne we know Thrawn is an arrogant prick we can assume at least a portion of this statement is bullshit.

For all we know he is suggesting that he himself is so uber that "he" would not have lost those ships the way they were lost.


Also something else came to mind. According to Thrawn and as supported by other comments the battle was lost when the "Battle Meditation" was stopped.

Well then Pel is not the person who should be executed for treason. The real traitor is the moron Grand Admiral who sensed the death of Palpatine and knowing full well what would have happened still decided to end his own Battle Meditation and thus throw the fleet into a complete panic.

Obviously the GA is the one who should be pointed to as the man who cost the Imperials the battle. At least according to Thrawn it was last second incompetence by the Tie's that allowed the DS2 to be destroyed. This incompetence would not have happened is he had stuck to doing his job instead of going wandering. What did he really expect to accomplish? Best case he runs into Skywalker and learns what happens and then gets diced into a few dozen bloody pieces him him.

[The Original Nex]

The loss of battle meditation absolves Pellaeon of his illegal order how?

[Baal]

The loss of battle meditation absolves Pellaeon of his illegal order how?

It doesnt. What it does do is point out that the illegal order would have never had to be given if the GA had not stopped his Battle Meditation and thrown the Imperials into such disarray that they lost the battle.

Pellaeon only gave the order because the Imperials had so fallen apart that the odds of their surviving much less winning the battle was in serious doubt.

[NeoGoomba]

I fail to see how Thrawn being "an arrogant prick" means we can assume bullshit on his part.

[TC Pilot]

Baal: Declaan is one of the 12 Grand Admirals, and as such, pretty much had the authority to do whatever he damn well pleased.

[Ghost Rider]

The loss of battle meditation absolves Pellaeon of his illegal order how?

It doesnt. What it does do is point out that the illegal order would have never had to be given if the GA had not stopped his Battle Meditation and thrown the Imperials into such disarray that they lost the battle.

Pellaeon only gave the order because the Imperials had so fallen apart that the odds of their surviving much less winning the battle was in serious doubt.

So you make a leap of unjustified logic that Battle Meditation was all that was keeping the Imperials in line. Not training, not years of fighting the Alliance and the CiS before hand.

Battle meditation.

There's loads of wanked out shit I hear from people about Wars, but when they attribute that a battle because of one single thing? The fact that documentation disagrees with you(the fact that a man fought with a single ISD for three hours alone demonstrates how badly wound the rebels were), and yet you cling to your idiocy. Well that says all that there needs to be said.

[TC Pilot]

And even so, wouldn't the mind-numbing effects affect Pellaeon?

[bz249]

Congrats! You know how to disregard an entire section of a post you are trying to refute! Well done!

There's a difference between retreating when there's nothing to gain, but alot to lose, and retreating when fighting on will potentially cut your losses. Look at Bilbringi, he didn't even ATTEMPT to salvage the situation. Look at Endor, had he and the rest of the Imperials rallied behind Teshik they would have ANNIHILATED the Rebel fleet.

Yes Teshik was soooo stupid and moronic to think that the Imperial fleet would actually follow his commands and rout the Rebels. Why, of COURSE the Grand Admiral should have assumed an uppity panicky acting-CO would broadcast a general retreat and the rest of the fleet would have followed. :roll:

So Bilbingri: as far as I remember, the battle was also lost... it was written that Thrawn had a faint chance to turn the tide, so in that situation the best thing to do is retreating and maintaining unit cohesion.
Endor: Death Star lost, Exexutor lost, Palpatine dead, the Imps shoot piss poorly the entire fleet is in a dissarray. So the wise decision is also retreat and regroup and strike the Rebels where it really hurts (Dac and Sullust) instead of dying heroically over a foresaken moon.
And yes if someone takes on a superior foe (the Rebels have numerical disadvantage, but...) he is brave, if he loses against the same superior foe he is a jerk, a brave jerk.

[Baal]

Baal: Declaan is one of the 12 Grand Admirals, and as such, pretty much had the authority to do whatever he damn well pleased.

Really?


I do believe that his first duty would be to FOLLOW ORDERS! His orders would be to use Battle Med so that the Emperor wasnt too distracted while gettings himself a new apprentice.

[Baal]

The loss of battle meditation absolves Pellaeon of his illegal order how?

It doesnt. What it does do is point out that the illegal order would have never had to be given if the GA had not stopped his Battle Meditation and thrown the Imperials into such disarray that they lost the battle.

Pellaeon only gave the order because the Imperials had so fallen apart that the odds of their surviving much less winning the battle was in serious doubt.

So you make a leap of unjustified logic that Battle Meditation was all that was keeping the Imperials in line. Not training, not years of fighting the Alliance and the CiS before hand.

Battle meditation.

There's loads of wanked out shit I hear from people about Wars, but when they attribute that a battle because of one single thing? The fact that documentation disagrees with you(the fact that a man fought with a single ISD for three hours alone demonstrates how badly wound the rebels were), and yet you cling to your idiocy. Well that says all that there needs to be said.

No I am making no leap. I am quoting Thrawn. According to him the loss of Battle Meditation is what lost them the battle. Now if you want to throw that out fine. Then how can we accept his opinion that the battle could have been won by him.

[NeoGoomba]

No I am making no leap. I am quoting Thrawn. According to him the loss of Battle Meditation is what lost them the battle. Now if you want to throw that out fine. Then how can we accept his opinion that the battle could have been won by him.

When did he express such an opinion?