Space Empires V PBW game?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I got impatient and started the game with just me. It didn't work. The flag and ship set were both replaced.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

The way I see it, we have three options.

1. Ask the PBW admins to install the ship sets and flag packs in the stock folder and all the mod folders by next week before we start. Since the IRM mod still isn't installed, I'm not really holding out hope for this one.

2. Switch to stock ship sets and flags.

3. Use PBW to upload and download turns, but execute them manually. This actually isn't so bad, as the biggest PITA is sending and receiving the files to everyone's e-mail, and not executing the turns themselves.

The more I think about #3, the better it sounds. This way, we don't have to wait for the PBW admins to install the sets and flags, nor do we have to wait for them to install new versions of SE V and the Balance Mod every time there's an update. The only real drawback, aside from the fact that I'll have to run the turns manually, is that without an automated execution on a timer, some people won't feel as inclined to get their turns in on time, but that's solvable if I stick to the turn timer.

[brianeyci]

Manual execution is a pain for the game administrator. Since SE:V's stupid and doesn't process unless it has focus, you'll be sitting there for 30 minutes or more waiting for 10+ players turns to churn.

We could just do an every 48 hours thing (timed executions.) The only drawback is the game might go slower to start with, usually everybody's excited and does every 24 hours for the first dozen or so turns then it cools down, but I don't mind a slower pace.

Everybody should still be motivated, since PBW will still send turn warnings and they'll still be a timer for them to see, as long as you're mean and run no matter what. Manual means you can archive every turn too, so if something happens you could roll back. Plus it'd be nice to have an archive of every single game turn, so when the game's over people can download and view the carnage with everybody's password public (everybody is choosing unique passwords right.)

How about we go with 3, and try 1 and wait for them to install. Maybe they'll get to it eventually and you won't have to manually process.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Actually the focus thing was fixed, and you don't need to do manual to archive turns. I have every turn of every game we've ever played, starting with the B5 game.

Anyway, that sounds like the best option. I'll petition the admins, and we'll just run manual until they get around to it. Now to start waiting for the patch, which should be out in a few days.

[darthkommandant]

Question about the flag mod why are half of the flags not showing up? Anyway Im ready to play as the fearsome galactic empire has been added. For Palpatine!

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I hadn't noticed that flags weren't showiing up, but then I wasn't really looking either. If there are flags that are definitely supposed to be included but aren't showing up, you should PM MKSheppard about it, as he's the author of the flag pack.

[Kingside_Bishop]

I think option #3 would work fine, so long as Tuxedo doesn't mind generating the turns manually. I look forward to starting -- can't wait to get my hands on the new patch, too. It'll be sweet to have functioning planetary napalm once again.

[brianeyci]

Guys I just simmed 10 dreadnaughts with max phased shields, max meson blasters, flak cannons, and full armor versus 40 frigates with 3 max capital ship missiles, max engines, a solar sail and the latest armor.

There's 4 left, but there's around 10 frigates that got away.

Looks like the game won't depend on who knows the technology tree better, but who expands explores and exploits better. The way it was meant to be. In SE:IV you pit a thousand shits against ten dreadnaughts and you wouldn't even scratch them. And it looks like smaller ships will always have their uses, blockade runners and skirmishers. The main weakness seems to be ordinance.

I'd still rather have the dreadnaughts, they're not fucked by ordinance and sometimes the frigates are stupid and don't stay at max range and get one-shotted. Still, direct fire and pd is way better, my capital ship dreadnaughts don't touch my beam dreadnaughts with flak cannons. But I assume this is balanced by research.

I know what I'm going though. Probably rushing for point-defense level six, to get flak cannons as soon as possible. Then try and hold out against the missile and fighter swarms, until my beams get good enough to match them. It takes a long time, capital ship missile V you get at turn 10, beam weapons looks like they take a lot longer. But a person going missiles versus someone going beams won't be useless... if there's 2 to 1 the beams still lose, way better than SE:IV's retarded two pds on every dreadnaught stops all missiles crap.

I'm looking at the supply and I'm a little wary. Resupply depot makes 5k supplies a turn, and my dreadnaughts have 15k supplies each. Resupplying a entire fleet would take many tens of turns. Better to scrap and rebuild a whole fleet with full supplies. Why doesn't balance mod fix this. I expect I'll be making "tanker" ships, to ship supplies over to my fleet and scrapping them.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

The best direct fire weapons seem to be the high energy discharge weapons. Wave Motion Gun, Incinerator Beam, and Ripper Beam, although the APB and PPB's reduced accuracy range dropoff is nice. The best point defense seems to be a mix of flak cannons for fire rate and damage and anti-missile missiles for range. It's nice to start shooting at incoming missiles almost as soon as they're launched, and also enables protecting sister ships better. The best missiles seem to be plasma since they have the most range, although gamma pulse missiles are very cost effective for things like satellites and have the highest speed so they're hard to shoot down. I haven't explored null space or other special weapons to see if they're any good, or any of the special techs. It also seems that cloaking tech is very nice in both stock and Balance Mod. There's nothing like uncloaking and coming out right on top of the bastards and unloading weapons or dropping troops before they can even react.

[brianeyci]

Holy fuck I just simmed those 40 frigates with plasma missile versus 10 dreadnaughts of a ripper + flak + cannon combo, and the frigates annihilated them. I tried again with 40 dreads versus 120 frigates and the frigates owned.

Looks like small ships aren't useless after all. One dangerous thing is, forget to set them to maximum weapons range and they stray in range and are pretty useless.

I'm seeing lots of possibilities here, like task forces in fleets full of smaller ships, while the larger ships stay in formation and give the heavy hitting power.

But what makes me really happy is, all a player has to do is make sure he outmasses his opponent by a lot to win. There's no one ship destroys a whole fleet bullshit, crystalline armor or shield absorb or anything like that. And a single won battle doesn't mean game over.

Only thing new players have to watch out is cloaking, decloak on top of homeworlds and game over. But it's even better than SE:IV that way, have to research sensors in SE:V so any average player should have sensors up.

[brianeyci]

Looks like plasma missiles aren't a natural extension of capital ship missiles. Bummer, you have to research chemistry 2. But looks like anybody going missiles should forget capital ship missiles entirely and open up chemistry 2 as fast as possible, 60k + 120k, not undoable if you devote 60k to open up chemistry 1 to start the game.

The Tech Tree is here, nice of Kwok to give it. Looks like cloaking is a far off dream, you'd need 100 + 200 + 300 + 400 thousand research points just to open up cloaking, and you'd have to face a braindead person to get away with it, especially since you need a high level of sensors to explore systems quickly. But with 10 players, there's a chance. Paranoia galore.

[Alan Bolte]

Looks like early engine research has immediate payoffs.
Interesting that there's actually a point to going plasma missiles.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

The only disadvantage to plasma missiles is that researching them doesn't open up any small weapons, so your fighters won't rock the house big time with rocket pods / small torpedoes. I also like that stellar manip is very expensive. 5.5 million research to get warp point openers, if I calculate correctly.

[brianeyci]

I simmed again, with more bomblet missiles and the frigates always win, when matched up cost for cost. My basic frigate is this: 5 engines, a solar sail, 3 missiles, bridge, life support, crew quarters.

The main problem is this: a small frigate can put 3x50kT missiles for 50% of its space devoted to weapons, and doesn't have to put anything in for defense because it's defense is range. Meanwhile a larger ship needs shields and armor. Fully loaded out I can get 20% of a dreadnaught's space devoted to weapons. If I skimp major on shields and armor, I could reach 50%, but that defeats the whole purpose of a larger ship.

I think a combined arms approach would work best. Those plasma frigates are defenseless to fighter swarms. Probably whoever has the best mix will win. There's also the fact if research is balanced correctly, as it appears to be, getting plasma missile 11 is not as good as getting plasma missile 8 and say fighters 3. Or even plasma missile 5 mines 5 fighters 2, or anything that offers you more options.

Acceleration and speed really fucks bigger ships if you use them alone, but to fighters those plasma frigates would die horribly, one shotted by the puniest fighter. Unless the frigate player went fighters too as a screen, not a bad idea considering you want to overwhelm his PD and heavily armored fighters could draw attention away from the missiles which have a fixed defense value of 30.

[brianeyci]

Very interesting. I just faced off 175x6 large fighters versus 36 dreadnaughts, equal cost. What I did was put on anti-proton beams, unmounted. So instead of four or five 300 damage guns, I had twelve guns at 80. The dreadnaughts won. Switch the anti-proton beams for say bomblet missiles, and the dreadnaughts reek. Basically you want capital ships to one-shot fighters, and medium and large fighters take more than one hit with point-defense or bomblets. If you use something like point-defense blaster, you're mincemeat. Use flak cannons, a little better, but a large shielded fighter can take 3 hits from it. Meanwhile use an unmounted APB, if you can hit with it, and the fighter's one shotted.

It looks like once you get high enough levels of combat sensors (I was using max) the fighter's advantage disappears. Still, I had only 4 dreadnaughts left, so it's about even. Assembling that many fighters is a challenge anyway, so it looks like APB is the generalist's weapon for the long haul. If anybody is interested in winning it all, not just killing one or two players and losing to the rest, APB might be the answer. But you need really high levels of combat sensors to target fighters effectively. I imagine a mix of mounted/unmounted weapons would be most effective.

[Alan Bolte]

So what you're saying is that it's balanced?

[brianeyci]

So what you're saying is that it's balanced?

Probably. Nothing like crystalline armor where one ship kills fifty. Man if you had stayed in that Star Trek game Bolte the Ferengi would've been destroyed -- did you know that? I had no way to beat your crystal armor until I got null-space weapons, and even then I didn't have an answer until I got quantum torpedoes.

Still balance or not, I suggest people plan out their research. The pdf for the tech tree is right there, it's not like SE:IV where everything's hidden. Obviously nobody's stupid enough to research useless shit, but I would still make ships in waves. Having a shitload of ships sit around in peacetime is still a waste. For me the first wave of ships will be total shit, probably capital ship missile I firing at max range. The next I'll probably wait all the way until cruiser and carrier, then after that probably dreadnaughts and heavy carriers. No point having a frankenstein fleet even if I'm playing Star Trek, a whole bunch of useless ships is worse than nothing, sucks up my money.

[InnocentBystander]

The key to this game is not huge swarms of fighters or gigantic space battleships. Its getting far enough into it to see each other's space ships

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

With 10-12 players, I wonder if we should still go medium sized galaxy or step up to large. Large is effectively much bigger than it was in SE IV, but 10 players is a lot. We don't want to feel cramped, but also don't want it to take a month (literally) to get from place to place.

[brianeyci]

Hm.

IB's joke is actually a little real. Waiting six months to get around to fighting, or two months, is unthinkable. I did it with Star Trek, I don't want to do it again.

The problem with a small galaxy is the min-maxers will rule, and everybody has a lot less choice to start out with. The larger the map the more room for error, and the more room for variety and creative strategies. Like if we go small galaxy, missiles and fighters win hands down. Medium, it's less clear, and large, it's even less and racials get useful instead of a waste of 1500 points.

I say medium because cramped is better than nothing. I don't mind duking it out with capital ship missile I, and people can make alliances. I for sure will try to make an alliance with the first guy I come across, so we don't start an early war and fuck each other over. Though if one of you fucks are impatient, I'll be happy to nuke your homeworld .

[Kingside_Bishop]

I'm playing a crystalline race, and although I would like the extra space to stretch my racial legs, I think I'd rather play in closer quarters... I don't mind playing a medium sized galaxy at all. Besides, medium is a lot bigger than it used to be, and these multiplayer games are all about interaction, anyway. I think we'll have enough space to be well-established by the time we meet eachother. And on large maps, there tend to be large, unthreatened expanses of any given empire, which is always boring.

Essentially, I'd like a game with borders, but without an echo.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Compelling arguments for medium. Unless someone can think of a really good reason to go large, then medium it is.

[Covenant]

I'm for Medium as well. When we played STmod I remember thinking how long it was going to take to actually play it out to it's conclusion. It got to the point where once war started, it all went at once, and then it was basically all over after a few exchanges. In Balance mod, with wars that could go on much longer, a smaller more feisty galaxy makes a lot more sense.

[InnocentBystander]

Medium works for me.

[darthkommandant]

Medium seems fine to me.