DirectX 10: Legitimate step forward, or massive scam?

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RThurmont
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Post by RThurmont »

No, that's just what consoles do, they do one thing at once (play a game) and they do it on the big-screen TV in the room you mentally associate with entertainment rather than (for most casual gamers) the home office on the little monitor that you associate with online banking and shopping.
Sorry, I did not word that correctly. I meant that the single-tasking nature of DOS was obsolete, but its single tasking nature also made it a much more enjoyable gaming platform than MS Windows, as you could play without fear of distractions (such as tooltips appearing indicating that updates are ready, Norton Antivirus telling you its downloading something, or people IMing you, or other system sounds in the background).

When I was a kid, I detested consoles because they could do only one thing, (and also I've always HATED the gamepad type interface) but increasingly, Consoles have become full fledged computers and computers themselves have changed to the point where they are excruciatingly unpleasant to do gaming on.

The Wii, for example, at least manages to bring about some real innovation in terms of innovation. A local store has a few in stock and I am really very heavily tempted to buy one...
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Post by Shogoki »

RThurmont wrote: Sorry, I did not word that correctly. I meant that the single-tasking nature of DOS was obsolete, but its single tasking nature also made it a much more enjoyable gaming platform than MS Windows, as you could play without fear of distractions (such as tooltips appearing indicating that updates are ready, Norton Antivirus telling you its downloading something, or people IMing you, or other system sounds in the background).
Damn, this sounds like one of those stupid exaggerated infomercial situations: "are you too retarded to cut your vegetables and cook at the same time? [scene of an overacting idiot cutting one finger off of one hand and deepfrying the other]" Nothing is stopping you from shutting down any bothersome application or process you are running before you launch a game, did you know that? In fact, doing so will probably increase the performance of the game you’re about to play.
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Post by Starglider »

RThurmont wrote:also made it a much more enjoyable gaming platform than MS Windows, as you could play without fear of distractions (such as tooltips appearing indicating that updates are ready, Norton Antivirus telling you its downloading something, or people IMing you, or other system sounds in the background).
TURN OFF THE CRAP. It isn't hard, no one else I've ever met has a problem with this (not more than once per app anyway).
(and also I've always HATED the gamepad type interface)
So you want a console with a mouse and keyboard, rather than a controller specifically designed for playing games, and no internet connection? Presumably you want it to be limited to mid 90s graphics to 'spur innovation'? On behalf of the entire gaming industry, allow me to write you off as a bizarre outlier who can and should be ignored.
MKSheppard wrote:(snip massive wank about driver architectures)
One of the irritating things about this forum is the massive overuse of 'wank' for anything that seems vaguely annoying. Quit with the massive wank of 'wank'! By this definition all engineers are wankers, because all engineering specs are wank.
MKSheppard wrote:I mean you can talk about how the driver architecture's overhaul is so great; and I have to ask a question "was it all necessary?" Do we really need to completely tear out the entire guts of the system, when in reality the majority of this stuff can be accomplished with the present driver architecture?
Yes. It's called refactoring. If you're not a software engineer, either take my word for it or read up on 'feature creep' and 'cruft' and 'bit rot'. Constantly adding features, many of which are based on fresh abstractions and have different low-level performance bottlenecks to the original, will rapidly make a design creaky, unreliable and unmaintainable if it isn't refactored. That doesn't even include the requirements drift created by the fact that Vista has a somewhat improved security model which requires some code to operate in a different way, or the fact that almost everyone had to rewrite their drivers anyway to support x86-64.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Starglider wrote:By this definition all engineers are wankers, because all engineering specs are wank.
Mike is famous for cutting through the bullshit of technical hype specs and asking "What is it to me?"

I mean, other than making it so that a Direct X GPU crash doesn't take down the entire system with it now, what new fancy effects does DX10 make possible? You can talk about how more efficient it is, and how much lower the overhead is blah blah, but at the end of the day, it comes down to "how much prettier does it look for the same amount of GPU hardware?"

If the answer is "not much" than it's all bullshit the same way MMX was (anyone remember that?), with little effect for the end user; and is just another way for Microsoft to force Vista onto the end users.
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Post by Starglider »

MKSheppard wrote:"how much prettier does it look for the same amount of GPU hardware?"
Verbiage isn't going to answer that question. You'd have to look at a demo, either as a video or as screenshots if you don't have Vista plus a suitable card. 'For the same amount of GPU hardware' is only half the point though; a large part of the problem was that DX9 was proving very difficult to scale to larger scene complexities and shader complexity, so a refresh was required to prevent the GPU industry grinding to a halt (or more likely, OpenGL catching up with Microsoft's baby). I hear there's a reasonable game-engine based DirectX 10 demo available now too. The technical details are mostly interesting for programmers, content creators and people fascinated by hardware for its own sake.
If the answer is "not much" than it's all bullshit the same way MMX was (anyone remember that?)
MMX was just a nasty technical design. Intel tried to do it on the cheap and for the most part it sucked. SSE was the version that actually worked.
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Post by Stark »

If people don't understand that you can't just constantly graft new stuff on legacy code without periodically rebuilding, I don't think you're going to explain it. The only possible 'scam' with dx10 is the limited availability, but since dx10 is going to be meaningless until the good dx10 cards and games come out, it's not an issue yet. Are people really saying you shouldn't update dx unless there is a significant, detectable performance improvement? What's a maintenance build? :)

A friend of mine worked for a major corp in town, and they sold insurance software that was *literally* the 80s Pascal code the directors/owners punched decades ago with new Flash or Java frontends. Needless to say, ever customer had a different version customised in various was and there was no tracking on the codebase at all. :roll:
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Post by phongn »

Yeah, MMX wasn't used because of some seriously bad design issues (you couldn't use MMX and X87 FPU at the same time!).
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Post by Pu-239 »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Amusingly, what tends to piss me off most about trying to game is most of them insist on being full screen, or other monopolizing a resource of my machine. I have this fancy computer that can do many things at once; I want it to be doing many things at once, and my monitor is big enough that I should be able to see it all at once too, and hopefully, trivially interact with other things that do pop up with interrupting me significantly.

Sadly, I seem to be in the minority with that view.

And as to DX10: it is a step forward, and steps forward means leaving old things behind. That is just a fact of life.
Doesn't Wine/Cedega run in a window? Granted that isn't compatible w/ all games.

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Post by Ace Pace »

People are being fucking idiots.
MKSheppard wrote:
I mean, other than making it so that a Direct X GPU crash doesn't take down the entire system with it now, what new fancy effects does DX10 make possible? You can talk about how more efficient it is, and how much lower the overhead is blah blah, but at the end of the day, it comes down to "how much prettier does it look for the same amount of GPU hardware?"
If there is less overhead, you can do effects that wern't possible before, isn't that obvious? The classic example is forests, forests today are all basically the same tree model with some minor changes,because that makes it easier to render(one DX9 batch call rather then doznes). The moment you can easily call for dozens of models, you can suddenly have forests where every tree is unique.
This example is easily relevent to the 'clone armies' syndrome of RTSs, which can only be 'dodged' with some texture tricks.


Rthurmont wrote:

As I see it, DirectX 10 is an ultimately worthless technology, even though it is innovative and interesting. The reason for this is that much of what actually makes a game great-compelling design-is not very frequently found in recent games.
Hey, lets blame API designers for bad games. Do you realise how stupid you sound?
Before 2002, it seemed like interesting, innovative games were coming out every month, and now, since then, there have been relatively few, and a good chunk of those have merely been sequels to previous games with better graphics.
Again, this has WHAT to do with DX10?
The "genrealization" of gaming, where the focus shifts to producing relatively homogenous games that are updated frequently, with each consecutive version featuring improvements in graphics and in other areas, makes for a relatively stable business model, but is ultimately ridiculously boring.
Gaming is mass market, mass market means boring, your point?


I would personally rather that game developers used OpenGL and produced games that looked like they were made in 2001, that had interesting and innovative gameplay, than continued to churn out games in this manner, but I don't think that's going to happen.
You realise you can easily make 'bad' looking games with any API, and OpenGL just makes your head hurt?
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Post by RThurmont »

My point was that DX10 is ultimately, from my perspective, a worthless technology, because it is highly unlikely that anyone will come out with any really interesting and innovative games that use it, that could not just as easily use simpler graphics. I think that once you cross a certain line in game development you start to focus more on photorealistic visuals than actual gameplay.

By the way Ace, the fact of the matter is that gaming should logically be a more segmented market now than it was in the 1990s. In the 1990s, far fewer people were playing games, and the industry was (of neccessity) innovative, but now that you have a large market, most studios seem content to follow the precedent set in prior decades as opposed to creating geniunely new and interesting titles with which to tap all the new potential the hardware represents. However, the market, by virtue of its larger size, can support much more specialization in terms of titles, but the problem is, everyone is locked into this model where games cost progressively more and more money to develop, and so the incentive for taking risks is not there.

At the risk of sounding terribly bleak, I'm of the opinion that gaming, as an area of creative innovation, is, for the time being, largely dead. The growth of the indie gaming market is encouraging, but I see it being a few years before there exists any sizable traction there, and in the mean time, the increasing cost and complexity involved in creating mainstream games will make it harder and harder for independent developers to attain anything remotely approaching mainstream games in terms of production values. This situation is depressing, but economically inevitable.

Ultimately though, for me, the golden era of gaming, when one could enthusiastically go into a major electronics retailer and expect to see really new and interesting ideas on the shelf in front of them, is history. Thus, DX10 is worthless, as it represents merely another extension of technology which is already more than powerful enough to be convincing.
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Post by Durandal »

RThurmont wrote:Sorry, I did not word that correctly. I meant that the single-tasking nature of DOS was obsolete, but its single tasking nature also made it a much more enjoyable gaming platform than MS Windows, as you could play without fear of distractions (such as tooltips appearing indicating that updates are ready, Norton Antivirus telling you its downloading something, or people IMing you, or other system sounds in the background).
That has nothing to do with symmetric multitasking versus single tasking. That's Windows allowing tool tips to actually render in front of a full screen graphics context. As for the IM sounds ... quit your IM client.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Pu-239 wrote:Doesn't Wine/Cedega run in a window? Granted that isn't compatible w/ all games.
It can, for some games. If the game requests full screen though, it will normally try to give it to it (and if it crashes, it doesn't reset the X server resolution!), but this can usually be overridden. However, the screen isn't the only thing that can be monopolized: a lot of games grab the mouse too, and if you hack the program into a window, it becomes impossible to take the mouse out of that window. And the sound issue: Wine's ALSA driver blows, and sound servers suck for gaming purposes; it is stuck with OSS, which means no sharing, but that is minor for me.
Hrm, I've had mousegrab issues w/ enemy territory and it's mods- I think ctrl-alt-/ is supposed to kill mousegrab, but the Xorg that came w/ ubuntu had a bug that wouldn't take this. Probably fixed by now, though I've lost interest in gaming in the meantime. State of gaming is rather flaky on Linux w/ the very few native games still using OSS (I actually like the IM sounds going off and multitasking while gaming, and agree w/ you- if I didn't like those, I'd use a console-), and lots of games grabbing input, then crashing, locking up the X server.

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Post by Ace Pace »

RThurmont wrote:My point was that DX10 is ultimately, from my perspective, a worthless technology, because it is highly unlikely that anyone will come out with any really interesting and innovative games that use it, that could not just as easily use simpler graphics. I think that once you cross a certain line in game development you start to focus more on photorealistic visuals than actual gameplay.
Because as we all know, having technology that enables artists to work faster, create better looking things is SO worthless? Cel shading, look up the game XIII(I think thats the amount of Is), pretty cel shaded game, fully 3D, fully impossible before.
By the way Ace, the fact of the matter is that gaming should logically be a more segmented market now than it was in the 1990s. In the 1990s, far fewer people were playing games, and the industry was (of neccessity) innovative, but now that you have a large market, most studios seem content to follow the precedent set in prior decades as opposed to creating geniunely new and interesting titles with which to tap all the new potential the hardware represents. However, the market, by virtue of its larger size, can support much more specialization in terms of titles, but the problem is, everyone is locked into this model where games cost progressively more and more money to develop, and so the incentive for taking risks is not there.
DEFCON, Uplink, Darwinia, the entire BinaryZoo catalogue. I can keep digging up games all day, you just have to find them.
At the risk of sounding terribly bleak, I'm of the opinion that gaming, as an area of creative innovation, is, for the time being, largely dead. The growth of the indie gaming market is encouraging, but I see it being a few years before there exists any sizable traction there, and in the mean time, the increasing cost and complexity involved in creating mainstream games will make it harder and harder for independent developers to attain anything remotely approaching mainstream games in terms of production values. This situation is depressing, but economically inevitable.
Wii, I await you trying it out then talking, or the DS. Wheres Praxis to kick your ass.
Ultimately though, for me, the golden era of gaming, when one could enthusiastically go into a major electronics retailer and expect to see really new and interesting ideas on the shelf in front of them, is history. Thus, DX10 is worthless, as it represents merely another extension of technology which is already more than powerful enough to be convincing.
Uh...*walks onto google* *Finds a dozen neat interesting games* You wanted something?
DX9 is no where near realistic, creating anything approaching photorealism in it is quite impossible and we're still far away from it. If you think current games are convincing enough, please check your prescription glasses.

Your entire attitude is "I want only innovative games, I want everything to be like the 90s." I'll compare to the movie model. Yes, if you only look at the big movie theaters, you'll only see the latest whiz bang movies, filled with corny acting, good special effects and shit scripts.
Then you can go down the street to your indiehouse theater showing forign movies, small indie movies. And you get what you want.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Well, an argument would be that increased ability to render higher quality graphics and such locks smaller potentially more innovative devs out due to the vastly increased labor required to create content that can take advantage of this. That said, this is obvious, and so what? You give the consumer what he/she wants, and if what he/she wants is better graphics and not innovation, that's what he/she gets.

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Post by Ace Pace »

Pu-239 wrote:Well, an argument would be that increased ability to render higher quality graphics and such locks smaller potentially more innovative devs out due to the vastly increased labor required to create content that can take advantage of this. That said, this is obvious, and so what? You give the consumer what he/she wants, and if what he/she wants is better graphics and not innovation, that's what he/she gets.
DX10 also brings advantages beyond making photorealistic graphics. Quite a few interesting games out there are high-res, using very basic 'textures' which are shaded in interesting ways to create neat effects.
It's wrong to automatically assume that a more advance API for graphics automatically assumes it means the only thing you can use it for is 'better' graphics.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Ace Pace wrote:Because as we all know, having technology that enables artists to work faster, create better looking things is SO worthless?
It's damn worthless when they ALSO have to produce a Direct X 9 version of it and also distribute it on the same DVD so that people with Windows XP can play it.

Congratulations, you've just forked your product line from a single cross-system XP/Vista codebase into two codebases different enough to be a major logistical and support problem!

And suffice to say, I don't believe the uber-optimistic estimates of "Look, we'll reduce Direct X System overhead by HALF!" from 40% to 20% with DX 10!
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Post by Ace Pace »

MKSheppard wrote:
It's damn worthless when they ALSO have to produce a Direct X 9 version of it and also distribute it on the same DVD so that people with Windows XP can play it.

Congratulations, you've just forked your product line from a single cross-system XP/Vista codebase into two codebases different enough to be a major logistical and support problem!
Congrats, you just discovered the DX8/DX9 issue. Guess what, developers passed it sucessfully, with the best example being Valve, giving FOUR differant code paths without any issues. Another example was is the Unreal Engine, when 2.5 was released(UT2K4) it could work across the Geforce 2 line and all the way up to the latest cards of that day, I guess because it was so hard working on that, it wasn't worth it.
And suffice to say, I don't believe the uber-optimistic estimates of "Look, we'll reduce Direct X System overhead by HALF!" from 40% to 20% with DX 10!
You don't belive it? What do you want, every single developer singing it's praise? Suffice to say nVidia has produced an amazing demo of what you can do with DX10. Cascades demonstrated completly procedural geometry and procedural shading.
Furthermore, the overhead cutting isn't something you can just point at and say 'look, this is thanks to it', in the same way you can't say that about any API change. This is something that will hopefully be subtle, and bring small changes that will have neat effects. I gave one good example, actually differant models for things such as trees and RTS units, and there are several more if you would just think.
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Post by Xon »

Despite the huge changes from DX9->DX10, there is a lot of simplification due to the increased orthogonality as well as simplification of the more complex tasks.
Durandal wrote:That has nothing to do with symmetric multitasking versus single tasking. That's Windows allowing tool tips to actually render in front of a full screen graphics context. As for the IM sounds ... quit your IM client.
This is because tooltops are created with the TOPMOST flag which bumps them to the top of the Z-order, and the game window is simply a normal window covering the screen. So no shit, the tooltip shows on top.
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Post by ray245 »

MKSheppard wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Because as we all know, having technology that enables artists to work faster, create better looking things is SO worthless?
It's damn worthless when they ALSO have to produce a Direct X 9 version of it and also distribute it on the same DVD so that people with Windows XP can play it.
So you're assuming the producer will be dumb enough to create DX9 for ALL future games because of XP? It's like saying you are using windows 2000 and expect ALL games to run on it...EVEN if it has become outdated.

Let's see...you WANT to play the latest game...YET you do not wish to upgrade for the game? I mean...come on, they producers will mostly stop using the DX9 after a few years, where more people has converted to vista.
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Post by Resinence »

Whoa, who would have thought such a little comment could cause such an argument :P

Anyways... Despite what that sentence appears to say, I don't actually think DX10 should be ported to XP. It's simply not worth it, and vista isn't that much worse than XP, it has "classic mode" too and *gasp* you can disable the new services. I love how similar this thread is to the ones on gaming sites when XP/DX9 came out "it's bloated! it doesn't add anything!".
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Post by ray245 »

Yup...and how many of them uses XP today and DX9? Also how many of them loves games that use DX 9? :lol:
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Post by General Zod »

Destructionator XIII wrote:Amusingly, what tends to piss me off most about trying to game is most of them insist on being full screen, or other monopolizing a resource of my machine. I have this fancy computer that can do many things at once; I want it to be doing many things at once, and my monitor is big enough that I should be able to see it all at once too, and hopefully, trivially interact with other things that do pop up with interrupting me significantly.

Sadly, I seem to be in the minority with that view.
I concur. There's a number of games that I've come across that would run just fine if they had a Windowed option, and annoyingly they just don't seem to have it available. (I'm looking at you Pacific Assault). I want to be able to do things without having to switch between full-screen mode when gaming and not enough titles give that option.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

The only game whose lack of a windowed option really pisses me off is Worms.
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