Space Empires V PBW game?

[Nephtys]

Those missiles rule, but they do low DPS compared to beams. Close to beam range and any pure missile ship will melt.

Against a fighter horde, I guess one could use a light PD picket. The formation controls really rule, and I suppose flak guns work well enough to sap them in exchange for some tin cans. Also invest in emissive armor.

[InnocentBystander]

You need an extremely large ship to mount enough PD to stop plasma missiles,

Or maybe a few escorts..?

[brianeyci]

Here's what I'm talking about.







The faster frigates stay out of range of the dreadnaughts. The only time there seems to be a fuckup is if the frigates stray in range of the dreadnaughts to target a weaker dreadnaught that happens to have its engines damaged--then the dreads destroy them. But I'm pretty sure I can solve that problem by altering maximum weapons range to target closest all the time.

Go with smaller than dreadnaught, say frigates versus light cruisers or frigates versus cruisers, and the frigates actually win. So far my only solution's been fighters, since plasma missiles can't hit fighters. But I end up losing my capital ships. It's the B5 range issue, only on a lot smaller scale and only for frigates (they're the only ones fast enough to keep at maximum range all the time.)

It looks like combining weapons has a nice effect too. If I slap on say one missile and tell the ships to engage at maximum range, they don't close to the shorter range of the beam weapons and instead skirmish with the missiles until the beams catch up.

The formation controls I still have to play around with, and split up different kinds of ships into different task forces. The problem with fighters is once you get them tough enough to survive one flak cannon attack, > 35 hull tonnage, they're really powerful, the Star Trek fighter problem. So point-defense doesn't work, you got to hit them with unmounted (since they're smaller) capital ship direct fire weapons with really high levels of combat sensor.

Or maybe a few escorts..?

Frigate's the smallest. Looks like frigates always have a place in the fleet.

[InnocentBystander]

Can I ask why all your tests involve ultra-super-mega late game technology and only one ship type per side?

[brianeyci]

Can I ask why all your tests involve ultra-super-mega late game technology and only one ship type per side?

Because I want to win it all or try to anyway, and with ten players (fuck looks like 13 now) I expect the final last few will have maxed out their weapon type at the least, and at least have gotten dreadnaughts .

I just tried again, 825 large fighters versus 30 dreadnaughts armed purely with flak cannons. There's 678 large fighters left and 0 dreadnaughts. If I use 30 ships armed with 12 or so anti-proton beams each instead of flak cannons, and there's 25 dreadnaughts left and 3 fighters. Flak cannons that do 35 damage just can't deal with a fighter that has 75+ damage resistance: the problem is simple, if a fighter can take 3 hits to kill, then your flak cannons are incredibly inefficient. You want to one shot a fighter if possible. And it's not even that hard to get large or medium fighters with a decent level of armor so you're around say 50 damage resistance.

Besides, I did run a mixed sim and I said what happened. 120 frigates or so versus 30 dreadnaughts and 1 carrier with 175 large fighters. The dreadnaughts all died, the frigates died, the large fighters were left. And if I run cruisers versus cruisers, or cruisers versus frigates as I said I did, the tonnage problem is just exacerbated (a smaller ship will have a lot more problems with the missiles, they still can't close and mount even less flak cannons.)

Don't get me wrong I'm not complaining: I'm perfectly sure that flak cannons can deal with medium or light fighters, or medium or light fighters low on armor. But design a fighter using all the armor slots and say one shield generator, and you have a monster. You're free to run your own sims, if you want I can give you my saved files .

[Nephtys]

You really need mixed fleets. SEV has given smaller craft notable advantages in this field.

A screen of lighter combatants with beams and PD will be engaged first by fighters and missiles, which allows them to take overkill damage, and shield cruisers and capitals behind them from the brunt of it. A capital meanwhile will still be able to hit fighters that are engaging the picket, allowing them to survive from being shot at less.

Versus a fleet of missile boats, screening ships with PD are more efficient defenders than their equal tonnage of attack ships. Not to mention you can order them to chase down the enemy frigs before they can turn and kill their accelleration, and engage them with far more efficient for the pound beam weapons.

So far, I can see one counter to a combined arms fleet balanced to stop the threat they face most (be it fighters or torpedo boats). And it's expensive, late game, and esoteric.

[brianeyci]

Hm I must not be designing my ships properly then. I just set up 10 dreadnaughts and 30 frigates versus their equal number in fighters, and the fighters still ruled. The frigates had about 8 flak cannons each. How do you keep the frigates around the same speed as the dreadnaughts, they just happen to rush forward and get themselves killed before the dreads are even in range.

IB is right part of the problem probably is, I'm using late game fighters whose only counter is a capital ship battery. I don't have a good mid-game balance mod, does anybody have a saved game I can tinker with (or know how to start out with less than maximum technology? I just chose all.)

EDIT: When I say equal numbers I mean equal in resources. 10 dreadnaughts and 30 frigates came out to around 500 large fighters.

[brianeyci]

I figured out my problem. I hadn't added in a combat sensor to my picket frigates .

When I do... well let's just say the fighters don't last long. The frigates manage to hold off the fighters for more than a minute, giving the heavier ships a whole lot of free hits.

The key just seems to be, matching ship speeds so the frigates don't get so far ahead. Frigates and dreadnaughts is a terrible combo, but frigates and light cruisers, or light cruisers and cruisers, things with not such a huge speed difference won't go leeroying ahead of the capitals. And a dreadnaught's purpose doesn't seem to be killing fighters anyway, seems to be mount the heaviest beam weapons possible to take out enemy capitals and carriers.

This is very exciting, looks like Ill be building more than one kind of ship. And to answer your question IB, I built one kind of ship in SE:IV and got away with it, which is why it was strange at first and I simmed with one kind of ship. Looks like SE:V is a lot more exciting.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

when creating my empire I get the Low starting Tech points (50000)?

I think that was a mistake, earlier in the thread Tux said 0 tech points.

Ah, so that's why people thought it was low starting tech points. Fixed the description.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

With 12 or 13 players, I"m thinking large galaxy? Or do we still go medium?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I wonder if teching up DUC's for a big early advantage and then making up for the wasted research by conquering others wouldn't be a viable strategy. Seems like an early rush is more viable in SE V with no uber warp point defenses.

[Luke Starkiller]

Right, I'm re-doing that then. I noticed one thing when picking my racial traits, the description for the Hardy Industrialists trait says that "Planetary Space Yards produce at 20% of their normal rate". The point cost indicates it is a positive trait though. Can anyone point me to the right place in the Game files to confirm that it is a 20% boost instead of crippling by 80%?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Looks like the 1.35 SE V patch is up. Now we just have to wait for the 1.07 Balance Mod patch, which Captain Kwok says is due tomorrow or Friday. Then we can send ship sets and .emp files to me and kick off the first turn. Plan on the game starting on Sunday, and try to get files to me before then.

EDIT: If you don't change your .emp file, make sure it actually works with the new versions before you send it. And also make sure that you're not using any technology points.

[InnocentBystander]

I decided to look around at the tech tree - there are FAR fewer tech levels in this balance mod, and it looks like once you get a ship class, you can't improve on it. I gota say, I don't really like that...

[Nephtys]

I decided to look around at the tech tree - there are FAR fewer tech levels in this balance mod, and it looks like once you get a ship class, you can't improve on it. I gota say, I don't really like that...

That makes upgrades simpler.

I really want a mod that removes the 'low and middle' decks, and just lets people put their mods on 1 plane. It really makes slot-limits a real consideration. Especially internal and armor.

[ColonialAdmiral]

Sorry guys, but can we hold up the game till monday? I'm going on a trip this weekend....

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I decided to look around at the tech tree - there are FAR fewer tech levels in this balance mod, and it looks like once you get a ship class, you can't improve on it. I gota say, I don't really like that...

There are multiple levels of each hull, although not generally 10 of each like in stock. The fewer tech levels is to be expected, as most mods tend to make a new game more like its predecessor since they're designed by people who were fans of the previous game first. I can't say whether or not I disapprove. Infinite or quasi-infinite tech levels can be very interesting (for one thing, you never max out on research), but I don't think the stock game handled it well at all. If I ever made a mod, I'd probably have infinite tech levels, but it takes careful balancing, and I'll take fewer well done tech levels over a disorganized mess any day.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Sorry guys, but can we hold up the game till monday? I'm going on a trip this weekend....

If we start on Sunday, then you'll have until Tuesday to get the first turn in. Unless you're saying that you'll already have left on Friday and won't be able to get the .emp and ship set (if you're using a custom one) to me. If so, Monday is certainly doable.

[brianeyci]

Is there really any point in going shields, given a ship has so many free armor slots anyway. With three levels you usually have way more armor slots than a proper design would use armor and shields anyway. The only point I see in going shields is if they're going special weapons like armor burning weapons or boarding parties.

Is armor leaky and shields not leaky, is that how Kwok balanced armor and shields? Because just looking at the raw damage resistance, armor's way better.

[InnocentBystander]

Of course a crystalline player will RAPE anyone who goes all armor... (I honestly think thats a pretty lame ability myself).

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Is there really any point in going shields, given a ship has so many free armor slots anyway. With three levels you usually have way more armor slots than a proper design would use armor and shields anyway. The only point I see in going shields is if they're going special weapons like armor burning weapons or boarding parties.

Is armor leaky and shields not leaky, is that how Kwok balanced armor and shields? Because just looking at the raw damage resistance, armor's way better.

One advantage of shields is strategic rather than tactical. If an armor only ship fights two battles, it's armor will get messed up in the first battle and probably lose the second, while a shielded ship might be at full strength or near full strength for the second, third, fourth, etc. Shielded fleets can take down lesser fleets without having to go back and repair.

[Nephtys]

Shields regenerate with regen modules well. They also tend to regen even as you lose 'outer' systems like weapons, because you'd fit the generators in internal slots, so it makes a ship last longer under damage with regen mods.

[Kingside_Bishop]

Alright, so... a few things:

1. The empire I submitted to PBW used low starting tech points, as opposed to none. Since we're generating manually, I can send a new .emp file to you, right Tux? Just, um... attach it in an email, right? This time with no tech points?
2. I, too, am going to be absent this weekend -- going camping. I'm leaving Friday, and won't be back until Tuesday. If we could hold the start off for just a bit, it'd be really awesome.
3. With 13 players now, I think I agree that bumping up to large is a good idea. 13 is just... pushing it a bit, I think. We'll definitely be cramped, at that point.
4. On the whole tactics discussion -- with the subjugation rule in effect, I'm not really going for the win. I'm going more to be "cool." Since the odds are good I'll get knocked out early, I decided to play a race that I'd be alright with for a long game in which I'm no longer gunning for the win. I plan to use a strategy that, I think, will be modestly effective and innovative, though -- shield sappers plus crystalline torpedoes and/or shard cannons, with the requisite PD, of course. I find that the per research point and ton cost of damage with shield depleters is just awesome, and crystalline weaponry allows me to punch right through armor without much difficulty. At the very least, it'll be fun to experiment with against actual humans. I agree, though, that in SE:V, especially with the BM, diversification within a fleet is crucial. Expendable, point defense picket ships are a must in fleet-to-fleet combat, regardless of your strategy. Plus, it's way cool -- one of the major strengths of SE:V is the awesome-looking real-time combat system, and there's nothing like watching two fleets, both tricked out with formations and task-forces, duking it out.
5. Those are some awesome looking samples for those shipsets. I would be so into a homeworld set... Homeworld is just... a beautiful game. I'd have to listen to the original HW score while playing SE:V, of course. Gotta pay your respects.

Of course a crystalline player will RAPE anyone who goes all armor... (I honestly think thats a pretty lame ability myself).

I don't know... racial trait players sink 1,500 points into their abilities (representing 75% of their allotment, in this game), and they still have to research for them. Luckily, you get plenty of perks -- not just being able to skip armor. I like their own armor ability (regenerating shield rate per hit)... it's almost like emissive armor. And their solar receivers can be pretty awesome, under the right circumstances.

[Nephtys]

I too will be occupied until Monday afternoon. Sounds like Monday's the official start date?

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Sounds like Tuesday, since there's no guarantee that .emp files generated with BM 1.06 will work with 1.07. Try to get me the .emp file as soon as you get back, Kingside, so we can start on Tuesday.

For everyone else, I won't be using any of the .emp files or ship sets from PBW since I don't want to muck about getting files from two different sources. So once you patch up and get the new version of Balance Mod, and once you've made sure the .emp file works, then send me that and also the ship set you're using. Then I'll put the ship sets into a zip file and host it on my webspace so everyone else can see the custom ship sets, too.