[Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

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The Duchess of Zeon
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[Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

An article about one of the most incredible forgotten engineering feats in history, which we would do well to consider.
May, 1886. President Grover Cleveland was making final preparations for his wedding. Jefferson Davis, in a rare public appearance, was drawing large and enthusiastic crowds of admirers. Throughout the nation, final preparations were being made for the celebration of Memorial Day.

And in the South, plans were nearing completion for one of the most complex and dramatic two-day periods in railroading history-changing the gauge of an estimated 11,500 miles of track.

It was a little over a half-century since the South Carolina Canal and Rail Road Company had inaugurated steam-powered freight and passenger travel on a regularly-scheduled basis. Horatio Allen, the railroad's chief engineer, had departed from the 4-foot 81/2-inch gauge used in England by prescribing a 5-foot gauge and in the years that followed, most of the South's railroads copied his example.

But in the North, the British example was dominant. It made little difference in the years preceding the War Between the States, since the two regions exchanged few goods requiring rail transportation. But as the South began its recovery from the war, it became readily apparent that complete economic reconstruction would require easy commerce with the rest of the nation-an impossibility so long as differences in gauge existed.

At first, the problem of interchange had been temporarily relieved by laboriously loading freight from one car to another at interchange points between railroads of different gauges. But the growing trade between the South and the rest of the nation soon required faster and less costly methods. A crude form of containerization was devised, with freight remaining in the same car throughout the journey-with the wheel trucks being changed at interchange points as necessary. Soon, as a contemporary writer pointed out, "not a prominent point could be found on the border without its 'hoist' and acres of extra trucks."

Variety in gauge size wasn't uniquely a difference, between North and South. In 1871 no less than 23 different gauges existed in the United States, ranging in width from three to six feet. Within the South, the state of North Carolina prescribed by law a gauge of 4 feet 8 1/2 inches to encourage a traffic flow to its own ports, rather than those in Virginia or South Carolina (each of which were primarily served by rails spaced five feet apart). Goods going between Virginia and South Carolina had to go through at least two interchanges on the way.

It was clearly a condition that could not continue. In 1884 the Illinois Central-which operated in both regions-found it necessary to begin changing the gauge of its lines in the South to conform with the northern width. The need to compete soon forced the Mobile and Ohio to change-putting direct pressure upon the Louisville and Nashville and the Cincinnati Southern to match the improved service of their competitors.

In effect, the pressures of free competition had provided a catalyst, and the stage was set for changing the gauge of practically every road in the South-a change that, ultimately, would be accomplished in less than 36 hours.

February 2-3, 1886, marked the first step. As agreed the previous October at a meeting of the Southern Time Convention, operating officers of the South's railroads met at the Kimball House in Atlanta in a "Convention ...called for the purpose of fixing date and arranging details for change of gauge."

E. B. Thomas, general manager of Southern's predecessor, the Richmond & Danville, served as chairman of the committee charged with determining the date of the gauge change. On the Convention's first day he reported: "That Monday, May 31st, and Tuesday, June Ist be designated as the days for general change of gauge. ...Lateral lines may change exterior or subsequent to the dates named by arrangement with connections." .

On the members of three Convention committees Transportation, Roadway and Machinery-fell the burden of planning for the tremendous task just four months away. All motive power and rolling stock would have to be removed from the affected tracks, wheel spacing would have to be adjusted to fit the new gauge, and logistics for feeding and equipping a virtual army of workers would have to be carried out with military precision.

But the most important decision of all involved the exact width of the new gauge. Although the nation largely had adopted the 4-foot 8 1/2-inch width, the Pennsylvania Railroad-with which many of the South's roads required an interchange-used a 4-foot 9-inch gauge. For this reason, and owing to minor engineering difficulties encountered by the 4-foot 8 1/2 -inch width, the Convention had voted to adopt the Pennsylvania gauge as its standard.

One farsighted man rose on the Convention's second day to ask that the gauge-size decision be reconsidered. He was John C. Gault, general manager of the Cincinnati, New Orleans & Texas Pacific, and he made some persuasive arguments: , .

"I deem it of greatest consequence that the standard gauge of the country could be adopted by the Southern Roads. ...This is the first opportunity that the Southern roads have had to correct the unfortunate mistake made when the five foot gauge was adopted, and in correcting it we should take such action as will result in solving the question for all time. I insist upon saying "to this Convention that the adoption of a 4 ft. 9 in. gauge is only a partial correction of the mistake. ..." Nonetheless, the Convention chose to go ahead with a standard gauge of 4 feet 9 inches.

With the Convention's end, four months of intense activity began. Differing in some specifics between the various roads, plans were worked out in minute detail for reducing the width between rails, and between the wheels, by 3 inches.

Only one rail would be moved in on the day of the change, so inside spikes were hammered into place at the new gauge width well in advance of the change, leaving only the need for a few blows of the sledgehammer once the rail was placed. As May 31 drew near, some spikes were pulled from the rail that was to be moved in order to reduce as much as possible the time required to release the rail from its old position.

Rolling stock, too, was being prepared for rapid conversion. Contemporary accounts indicate that dish shaped wheels were provided on new locomotives so that on the day of the change, reversing the position of the wheel on the axle would make the locomotive conform to the new gauge. On some equipment, axles were machined to the new gauge and a special ring positioned inside the wheel to hold it to the 5-foot width until the day of the gauge change. Then the wheel was pulled, the ring removed, and the wheel replaced.

To shorten the axles of rolling stock and motive power that could not be prepared in advance, lathes and crews were stationed at various points throughout the South to accomplish the work concurrently with the change in track gauge.

A few days before May 31, all roads began clearing cars from their lines and reducing the gauge of all areas of track that could be freed of cars and engines.

Finally, in the early morning hours of May 31, the concentrated work began. Men worked in crews of various sizes charged with various goats-some given specific mileages to cover, others under instructions to begin at a specified point and work in a specified direction until they met another crew working toward them.

Along thousands of miles of track-approximately half of which was operated by predecessors of today's Southern Railway System-spikes were pulled, rails moved in to the new gauge, and more spikes hammered into place. At shops and rendezvous points throughout the South, motive power and rolling stock were being altered to fit the new gauge. Wheels of cars were moved in, steam engine brakes and tires were altered-and the screeching of axles being narrowed on lathes joined the ringing of heavy hammers.

In less than three days, standard-gauge trains were serving the South. "The work was done economically ," an article in the Journal of the Association of Engineering Societies pointed out, "and so quietly that the public hardly realized it was in progress. To the casual observer it was an every-day transaction. It was, however, a work of great magnitude, requiring much thought and mechanical ability. That it was ably handled is evidenced by the uniform success attained, the prompt changing at the agreed time, and the trifling inconvenience to the public."

And the Richmond & Danville told its Annual Report readers: "By agreement and prearranged concert between the Southern Roads operating the 5 feet gauge of tracks, about June 1 st last the gauge of all the 5-feet tracks of this Company's lines was changed to the standard adopted of 4 feet 9 in. This important work was effected under the direction of the General Manager with great promptness and entire exemption from accident or damage, and with hardly a perceivable interruption in the regular movement of traffic throughout the entire connection of this Company's Roads."

Horatio Allen had written in 1884 that his use of the 5-foot gauge for "the South Carolina Railroad determined the gauges of the Southern road, which continues of that gauge to this time; but it is to be anticipated that the commercial advantages of uniformity of gauge will eventually narrow the gauge down to the coal mine gauge of four feet eight and a half inches."

The final half-inch reduction, though, had to wait for the formation of the Southern Railway Company. Then, because of the closeness of the South's 4-foot 9-inch gauge to the standard gauge, it was accomplished in the normal course of track maintenance and repair. It completed the job begun many years earlier.

But the real drama lasted only two days-two days in which the fields and villages of the South echoed the clanging of countless hammers driving thousands of spikes-the days they changed the gauge.


This was accomplished using almost entirely manpower, on a railroad network which was itself being altered in its operational structure, so that the use of work-trains was very limited, and required the removal of the old track and its replacement. And yet all of the work was done in the space of a mere two working days.

Let's consider, then, what centre-rail third-rail electrical power pickup would require in the United States. Of our 240,000 kilometers of track currently in operation, only a few thousand kilometers are in operation as already electrified rail. The magnitude of the project, therefore, is about thirteen times greater than that of the Days They Changed the Gauge.

We will need at least 235,000+ kilometers of track made out of steel, copper, or aluminum, to one standardized size. We'll need an appropriate insulator design to fix the rails into place, and the rails themselves will need to be as light as possible to save money--we'll say around 12lbs per yard, the smallest size of standard dimension crane rail currently used, so industry can adapt.

Where does the power come from? In many cases in remote areas we will have to build feed stations. In others, the plan is brutally simple. We will remove all the electrical transformers and other equipment from whole neighbourhoods along the railroad, or more precisely reorient their function, turning them into the network for the electric railroads. Wiring which supplies homes will be removed and transferred to the grid-rail connections which can be erected on telephone poles yanked out of the ground in various neighourhoods and replaced in the necessary areas. The revocation of electric power and telephone service to whole communities should be defensible through application of eminent domain.

Since the tracks themselves remain in place the whole time, diesel-powered work trains can be used to carry the crews quickly and effeciently, allowing track to be rapidly laid. If all rail materials are stockpiled in advance, we must be able to work at least as fast as our predecessors did, and because of the larger mechanization involved, at least somewhat faster; indeed, railroad freight traffic may continue on a limited basis the whole while. The problem is simply enough manpower for the tracklaying gangs.

Therefore, we must muster the population, but also all the producers of conductive metals. Aluminum is ideal for this. Most of its uses today are ones that can be supplanted by steel, or else which have no place in the modern world after the collapse of the oil economy. We can produce about 5 million metric tonnes of aluminum per year, and because we're using aluminum to make a product graded based on steel weight, our actual weight per yard of third rail track will be generally about half, which yields a requirement of about 3 metric tonnes of aluminum per kilometer of track, or some ~720,000 tons of aluminum third rail required, something that the United States can certainly produce in a matter of several months.

The point being made is that we can probably electrify our whole rail system in about six months if we really have to.

Where does the power come from? From the homes we've disconnected from the grid, of course, and those around them. We'll put whole communities into the dark, but eminent domain makes this legal.

And the people? Here is the elegance. A service can be provided for them to relocate to their nearest relatives in unaffected areas. This will neatly concentrate millions of families into nominal single-family dwellings, so that we will again have multiple generations and branches of a family living under one roof. This is very efficient, helps to raise kids better, and guarantees that the nuclear family in the USA can be crippled in favour of the much more efficient and stable multigenerational family, as a neat byproduct of ending all electrical services to millions and millions of homes. If a bedroom doesn't have four people living in it, it isn't a bedroom.

The transportation of their valuables to their relatives' and the matching services (choosing between relatives if there's problems with some and etc) will be delivered at the cost of work on the project. The military can be used for the rest of the work, along with the Conservation Corps and other efforts to help those numerous individuals who are already unemployed. The whole operation will be conducted in the fashion of a military engineering project.

At the same time, locomotives not needed for the minimum freight transfer during the reconstruction (which should take three weeks or less of actual work) will be brought into shop, their diesels removed, and electrical engines placed in the spaces in turn, with third-rail feeder shoes added. All workshops near railroad tracks capable of such activities will be turned to them over the period before the work (for locomotives not needed for emergency haulage, old decommed ones and so on), and immediately during the work. As more track is progressively finished, more electrics can take over and more diesels can be brought in for conversion.

Finally, we can reduce car culture at the same time by the simple expedient of refusing to issue vehicle licenses to any vehicle below a certain gas mileage (25mpg at the very lowest), and refusing to issue more than one vehicle license per registered driver. Licenses will be checked against reported location and anyone who lives within one mile of a commuter rail line will also be refused a license for their car.

In this way we can massively reduce oil consumption in the United States, reduce other energy consumption generally, break up the existing car-culture and single-family-home culture in one step, taking possibly as little as six months, and do so with some aggressive determination and the example of our ancestors, who rebuilt 11,500 miles of railroad track in two days.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Cool as that is, I'd rather see how someone could plan for either a) supplying Australia with water via tankers and desalination or b) evacuate Australia. That's a mighty tall order to prove your mettle against.

PO seems somewhat less pressing in the First World when one of your major colonies is looking at having no water within a year for whole areas like Brisbane.

I propose a massive overseas rail bridge to Oz. Nearly 12,000 miles in a couple of days should be a piece of cake. :wink:
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Cool as that is, I'd rather see how someone could plan for either a) supplying Australia with water via tankers and desalination or b) evacuate Australia. That's a mighty tall order to prove your mettle against.

PO seems somewhat less pressing in the First World when one of your major colonies is looking at having no water within a year for whole areas like Brisbane.

I propose a massive overseas rail bridge to Oz. Nearly 12,000 miles in a couple of days should be a piece of cake. :wink:

The only way to save Australia, and we both know it, is massive investment in nuclear powerplants hooked up directly to desalination equipment.

A secondary project which could be executed with less lead time would be a canal to the Lake Eyre, flooding it with seawater. The massive evaporation which would be continuous in a shallow body of water of that size in the middle of the desert should produce increased rainfall in the area.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

You might need to use the Army not for construction but for putting down riots that will come with that plan. There have been large protests in the past over the use of eminent domain and I don't think people are just going to let the government seize their entire town to gut for electrical equipment while relocating them to whatever shabby domicile the government gives them in compensation. Whether or not it becomes necessary to re-make the electric train network out of guts of peoples neighborhoods, you're going to need marshal law to do anything that catastrophically unpopular.

Really, if peak oil turns out as bad as people have been banding about on these boards, you'll get the multi-generational families living under the same roof without government edict being involved. The reason the nuclear family with parents living nowhere near where they grew up was a direct result of explosion of cheap reliable travel and the car culture. People could just leave town and move halfway across the country basically as easily as moving a town over. People really didn't travel back then so you ended up with families living within walking distance of each other by default. If available gasoline goes the way of the carrier pigeon and nothing at all replaces it, people will end up doing the same thing by default.

But I suppose it wouldn't be an Epic Engineering Project if you didn't efficiently tack on a completely separate Epic Social Engineering Project along with it to kill two birds with one stone.
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Re: [Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by Darth Mordius »

If a plan like this is not implemented (and lets face it, it probably won't be given the current political climate) we are in for some serious trouble. However, I do have some problems with specific parts of your grand design; specifically the inclusion of forcing your own mores on other people.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:And the people? Here is the elegance. A service can be provided for them to relocate to their nearest relatives in unaffected areas. This will neatly concentrate millions of families into nominal single-family dwellings, so that we will again have multiple generations and branches of a family living under one roof. This is very efficient, helps to raise kids better, and guarantees that the nuclear family in the USA can be crippled in favour of the much more efficient and stable multigenerational family, as a neat byproduct of ending all electrical services to millions and millions of homes. If a bedroom doesn't have four people living in it, it isn't a bedroom.
Do you have any evidence that a multi-generational house is better then the alternatives? Do people living on their own actively hurt others? I'm not necessarily opposed to concentrating the population to ease electricity usage, but I see no particular reason to concentrate people into large extended households.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The transportation of their valuables to their relatives' and the matching services (choosing between relatives if there's problems with some and etc) will be delivered at the cost of work on the project. The military can be used for the rest of the work, along with the Conservation Corps and other efforts to help those numerous individuals who are already unemployed. The whole operation will be conducted in the fashion of a military engineering project.
You are proposing confiscating people possessions and property, and allowing them to potentially earn them back by providing labour? (Firefox prefers labor to labour. Feckin' american spellings. Just look at the word! Labor? Communists everywhere should be offended)
Correct me if I am mistaken, but the fifth amendment specifies just compensation. Do you mean to pay these people for their work, or compensate them with their own possessions? Forced labour is not just compensation: even payed employment is not compensation (the pay being compensation for the work only, not extraneous situations you create).

I personally am of the opinion that people do not exist to serve the state: as such this portion of your plan strikes me as rather odious.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: In this way we can massively reduce oil consumption in the United States, reduce other energy consumption generally, break up the existing car-culture and single-family-home culture in one step, taking possibly as little as six months, and do so with some aggressive determination and the example of our ancestors, who rebuilt 11,500 miles of railroad track in two days.
Reducing energy consumption is good. Breaking up car culture is good because car culture creates problems vis a vi oil demand: while pop culture is vapid, and modern people fuckin' pansies, these are not problems on a scale requiring forcing your will upon the populace and reshaping them as you see fit.

Indeed, I think it good that it is currently not possible for the powers that be to enforce lifestyles that they desire upon the people; being an atheist I do not wish to be forced into church attendance because herr Bush has decided it creates stronger moral fabric in society.

In short: electric rail = very yes. Amerika uber alles = not so much.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

I live in a multigenerational home right now. Its not bad - and in an energy shortage, its ideal. Less energy expenditure.

I think Martial Law would be needed for this plan, and I dont really see the problem in making use of emininent domain - ideally, we would be under an Embargo, or some other excuse, so we could do the switch over in haste and blaming someone else.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Whoa ho HO! I completely didn't parse together that part of the Epic Engineering Project. Thank you Darth Mordius.
And the people? Here is the elegance. A service can be provided for them to relocate to their nearest relatives in unaffected areas. This will neatly concentrate millions of families into nominal single-family dwellings, so that we will again have multiple generations and branches of a family living under one roof. This is very efficient, helps to raise kids better, and guarantees that the nuclear family in the USA can be crippled in favour of the much more efficient and stable multigenerational family, as a neat byproduct of ending all electrical services to millions and millions of homes. If a bedroom doesn't have four people living in it, it isn't a bedroom.

The transportation of their valuables to their relatives' and the matching services (choosing between relatives if there's problems with some and etc) will be delivered at the cost of work on the project. The military can be used for the rest of the work, along with the Conservation Corps and other efforts to help those numerous individuals who are already unemployed. The whole operation will be conducted in the fashion of a military engineering project.
Pardon, Duchess? Not only are you not compensating the people whom you've seize property from, which is directly specified that you MUST do constitutionally, you are selling them back the own possessions in exchange for them gutting their own houses for your project which you seized from them?! I'm actually sitting at my computer giggling hysterically at the audacity of the proposal because its so outlandishly villainous that you should immediately grow a handlebar mustache for the sole purpose of twirling it maniacally when you post things like that. Jonathan Swift himself would spontaneously reconstitute himself from the very living soil to shake your hand if you had wrote that satirically.

Do you realize how hideously illegal that proposal is? I wrote the "shabby domiciles in compensation" in my last post because it didn't connect in my head that not only would you not be giving people anything in return for their homes, but would be selling their shit back to them in exchange for labor. Eminent domain doesn't work that way, even with some of the truly shady ways its been interpreted in recent years. If you are going to take peoples houses, you've got to pay for them. If you are seizing peoples possession, you'd damn well better have a good reason because while their land and such might be useful to the state, their possessions aren't. N o legal government edict can say "Guess what? No only are we seizing your houses, but your entire family is moving in with grandma! However, if you want any of your stuff back, you have to work a few months as part of a chain gang making a railroad. Oh, and failure to comply is illegal and refusal leaves you homeless. Have fun!"

Chinese immigrants got a better deal than that in the 1840s.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

As much as I do love mass projects like this one, we *do* have to obey the clauses of Eminent Domain - which involves paying our minions for their stuff.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The only way to save Australia, and we both know it, is massive investment in nuclear powerplants hooked up directly to desalination equipment.
You could potentially get a lot of desalination done simply from cooling the thing. Salt-water could be used as a cooling agent, and instead of having the huge stack belching steam into the atmosphere, it could be collected and allowed to condense somewhere. The primary problems here would be salt removal and the fact that I just made the cooling system extra complicated.
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Post by Lisa »

I for see many waco situations if trying to do the whole sell back one's possessions to them selves.

Removing their electricity? acceptable. we had that issue with rolling black outs a few summers back, some grumbling was heard but it was understood. out right removal of them from their land/dwelling? that's going to be very costly in man power, and I could actually see america revolting over that...

A man's home is his castle.

I can see outright disobedience one the part of LEO and soldiers.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Eh, you can rewrite entire neighborhoods - when you need to expand a military base, for example.

Its important to give monies though. It prevents rioting. In particular, you dont want to steal their stuff, unless you are already using Stalinist methods.
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Post by White Haven »

...You're a fucking lunatic, Duchess. Electrified rail coverage, sure, good thing. Decreased use of internal combustion engines, also a good thing. Forced labor, bad thing. Forcible relocation, bad thing. effective destruction of communities, bad thing. Belief that All Will Be Right With The World If We All Live With Grandma, fucking arrogant silly thing.

Precipitating a revolt against a wildly overauthoritarian State? Priceless.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

White Haven wrote:Precipitating a revolt against a wildly overauthoritarian State? Priceless.
That's how Marina is. She's authoritarian for its own sake. She has some good ideas, but her thirst for power is too dangerous.
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Post by Adrian Laguna »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
White Haven wrote:Precipitating a revolt against a wildly overauthoritarian State? Priceless.
That's how Marina is. She's authoritarian for its own sake. She has some good ideas, but her thirst for power is too dangerous.
That would suggest she wants to be the Queen. In reality she just doesn't have much faith in a non-authoritarian governments in handling truly desperate crisis situations. I think she also has doubts about the long-term sustainability of modern democracies.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Guess what, people? Eminent domain is not being applied to the homeowners. It is being applied to the electric companies. THEY will be compensated, presumably with stock in the new electrical power generation companies for the railroads.

People can continue to own and live in their homes, they just won't have any electricity, got it? They can make their own if they have the resources, or they can accept the government relocation scheme. They would remain the technical owners of those homes. The grid would simply no longer service them with electrical power.

I can't believe I'm being attacked on a point so unrelated that I could drive a couple of freight trains between the points of the compass they're running off on.

Just to recap: It is legal and constitutional because nothing is being taken from anyone they are not being compensated for. It is just being taken from the electrical companies, which would be compensated. The relocation scheme is just an option for those people who would otherwise have to live without electrical power. Jesus.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

White Haven wrote:...You're a fucking lunatic, Duchess. Electrified rail coverage, sure, good thing. Decreased use of internal combustion engines, also a good thing. Forced labor, bad thing. Forcible relocation, bad thing. effective destruction of communities, bad thing. Belief that All Will Be Right With The World If We All Live With Grandma, fucking arrogant silly thing.

Precipitating a revolt against a wildly overauthoritarian State? Priceless.
You fucking idiot, we are facing a massive ENERGY crisis on all levels, and you think that making people live with grandma is a moral decision? No, it's an efficiency decision.

Also, nothing is being taken from anyway, as you do not own a right to be supplied electrical power to your house.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Adrian Laguna wrote: That would suggest she wants to be the Queen. In reality she just doesn't have much faith in a non-authoritarian governments in handling truly desperate crisis situations. I think she also has doubts about the long-term sustainability of modern democracies.
My own desired role in the coming mild authoritarian regime is roughly equivalent to that of Holstein in the Second Reich ("the Monster in the Labyrinth"), occupying a middling bureaucratic position with considerable private influence based on the fact I know where everyone's mistresses are. An alternative would be a nebulous position as a friend of the Boss such as that occupied by Eulenberg, and I confess that in a conservative government I'll probably end up having the same fate he did, but the ride will be fun while it lasts.
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Re: [Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Its not like any of this matters, because her basic premise WOULD NOT WORK. One transformer or wire is not just as good as another. Third rail electrification does not work to begin with over the distances found in the United States, nor does it work for freight trains anywhere since the voltage is severely limited. It’s good for subways and other light commuter rail, and that’s it.

Moving and rewiring the entire grid would in many cases be more expensive and time consuming then simply building new equipment anyway.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

For the record I don't advocate authoritarianism as such, either, but rather traditionalism, in which countries are run based on practices established through long development and tradition and are founded in their cultural and social mores, in which people are unified together by certain traditional overarching characteristics, granted often including a strong monarchy. I think the abandonment of traditionalist government forms during the French Revolution was a terrific mistake which led to our current mass-consumption culture which is now about to collapse and leave us with the task of rebuilding traditionalist societies, which are not given to such manic and unsustainable growth as the past 250 years have seen.
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Re: [Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Its not like any of this matters, because her basic premise WOULD NOT WORK. One transformer or wire is not just as good as another. Third rail electrification does not work to begin with over the distances found in the United States, nor does it work for freight trains anywhere since the voltage is severely limited. It’s good for subways and other light commuter rail, and that’s it.

Moving and rewiring the entire grid would in many cases be more expensive and time consuming then simply building new equipment anyway.
The New Haven got 1,800 h.p. locomotives out of a 660 volt DC third-rail system, Skimmer. Wikipedia is not the end-all of knowledge, and the current upper limit of third-rail systems is about 1,000 volts, of which we can probably push it a bit further, especially with aluminum, which is a better conductor.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

I don't know if you're aware of this but several big Amtrak long-distrance trains (the Lake Shore Limited comes to mind) run out of Penn Station in NYC northbound on third rail power initially, using Genesis locomotives modified to run both on diesel and electric.[/i]
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Post by Darth Mordius »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Eminent domain is not being applied to the homeowners. It is being applied to the electric companies.
Sorry about that, guess I misunderstood. You did segue right from eminent domain to relocating people. Ah well, even geniuses like my self make mistakes :D
The Duchess of Zeon wrote:For the record I don't advocate authoritarianism as such, either, but rather traditionalism, in which countries are run based on practices established through long development and tradition and are founded in their cultural and social mores, in which people are unified together by certain traditional overarching characteristics, granted often including a strong monarchy. I think the abandonment of traditionalist government forms during the French Revolution was a terrific mistake which led to our current mass-consumption culture which is now about to collapse and leave us with the task of rebuilding traditionalist societies, which are not given to such manic and unsustainable growth as the past 250 years have seen.
I was going to say to avoid phrases like "Second Reich" if your being accused of authoritarianism ... and then you advocate fascism (or dictatorship with fascist leanings at best). Also, at least according to the definition here, traditionalism is authoritarianism: the French had a king before the revolution, as did everyone else.
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Re: [Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: The New Haven got 1,800 h.p. locomotives out of a 660 volt DC third-rail system, Skimmer. Wikipedia is not the end-all of knowledge, and the current upper limit of third-rail systems is about 1,000 volts, of which we can probably push it a bit further, especially with aluminum, which is a better conductor.

And I’d use wilkepdia rather then my books specifically on electric trains why exactly? Because I’m not fucking stupid maybe?

1000 volts is NOTHING by the standards of modern electrification systems which run at anything from 11,000 to 50,000 volts (actually we had 11,000 volt systems in 1912) and support much higher currents then any third rail. This is just as important as the voltage and the result is not only restricted locative performance but also a strict limit on how many locomotives can run on a given length of track.

If you wanted to cite an example of third rail power, then you should have noted that one of the first such locomotives in the US, the Class D serving Grand Central Station and built in 1904, could produce 3,000hp in a burst and 2,200hp continuously from 660 volt DC third rail. The key thing was though, that only one such locomotive could run on a circuit at a time, and they had two substations for just 2 miles of track inside a tunnel. Third rail is both voltage and current limited, no one ever bothers to mention amperage when talking about electric trains but it matters a great deal. You might one hell of an engine off a DC third rail system, but that will be the only thing it runs. Meanwhile with a high voltage AC overhead system, a couple substations can power several hundred miles of track with several dozen trains running at once.

Third rail has a huge cost advantage over overhead wires, if it was practical for long distances and high densities it would have been used far more extensively. The reality however is that no one is going to pay to build substations every ten miles for 150,000 route miles of track already existing in the US, and they aren’t going to force themselves to always have ten mile gaps between trains.

It would be far more practical to invest in overhead wires, backed by dedicated and purpose designed electrical feeder systems. It will cost about two million per route mile, perhaps less of the transformers are ordered in bulk all at once, but 300 billion dollars is well within the US budget is spread over 25 years. Some big additional costs, probably more then will be involved, since we’ll need dozens of power plants to meet the additional electrical demands but it still wont matter. Federal highway spending alone is about 30 billion per year already.

The resulting system will have far higher capacity, be computable with far more existing locomotives and equipment designs and will be generally superior in every way except maintenance costs. Those costs shouldn’t matter if a huge quantity of highway traffic is shifted onto the railroads. You don’t need to seize property, or cripple the US population to do it.
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Re: [Peak Oil] The Days they Changed the Gauge.

Post by Darth Mordius »

Sea Skimmer wrote:300 billion dollars is well within the US budget is spread over 25 years.
As a side note, 300 billion is within the US budget spread over a far smaller time then that. Say, 4 years?

*cough*Iraq*cough*
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I don't know if you're aware of this but several big Amtrak long-distrance trains (the Lake Shore Limited comes to mind) run out of Penn Station in NYC northbound on third rail power initially, using Genesis locomotives modified to run both on diesel and electric.[/i]
That would be the P32AC-DM model. It produces only 3,200hp vs. the 4,200hp of the P42B locmotive its based on while running on the diesel, because of the space required for the third rail equipment. When running off 600v DC third rail output is reduced to about 1,000hp. It doesn’t matter too much though, because speed on that initial length of track is severely restricted because its running inside tunnels with crap loads of switches.

Electric Multiple Units exist which produce more power on less weight, while carrying passengers at the same time. They can do it because they run off 25,000v at 50 or 60hz
Darth Mordius wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:300 billion dollars is well within the US budget is spread over 25 years.
As a side note, 300 billion is within the US budget spread over a far smaller time then that. Say, 4 years?

*cough*Iraq*cough*
It doesn’t matter how fast you can appropriate the money, because you need to produce all the required equipment and that’s going to take a long time. Its not just poles, wires and transformers. Its rebuilding tunnels, building those new power plants, buying locomotives, building new service depots and generally reworking the way the railroads are run to handle the new method of traction and to operate at higher capacity. Its not just the railroads that have to change either, the whole trucking and warehousing industry has to be revamped to emphasis only short distance haulage.

This would be a real bitch, since so many marshalling yards and warehouses have been torn up and replaced by other structures which can’t necessarily be knocked back down. It would be stupid and unnecessary to try to do this in less then 20 years or so. None of these costs are covered by that 300 billion figure, the true cost of the total conversion of the transport industry will be easily several times that.
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