What Linux distro should I try?

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Pu-239
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Post by Pu-239 »

Hugh wrote: I suspect they're easier to make.
Yeah, probably, since there's very little metadata you have to create. I used to make debian packages of everything I installed on my machine, so the package manager would track them. Then I got lazy and just used stow to make everything compiled from source uninstallable (now I'm even lazier and just install stuff to it's own directory in ~/.opt/ w/ symlinks to ~/.bin , unless it's a library- no su to root required to update things. ).

Speaking of regressions, the security update to vnc4server on etch was annoying and pointless, since anybody who cares about security tunnels VNC through SSH- apps wouldn't start at all- ended up installing the debian package on top of ubuntu- so you do have a point.... I'm just lazy and don't bother reading all the changelogs, easier to just fix problems as they occur.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
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George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by RThurmont »

If you are willing to actually change things with your OS and dive into the differences, why leave Windows at all?
Because Linux is cheaper, and increasingly, better. Really, the ability to tinker was not the primary motivation for my starting to use Linux in October (rather, I really wanted to find a better OS than Windows that, unlike OS X, could run on all of my hardware, and additionally I had just discovered with the Mac I had purchased how slow OS X actually was). I found myself really enamored with Linux, and later discovered the joy of tinkering with it, but I'm extremely glad that my first Linux installations were as easy to do as they were (with the exception of WiFi...ndiswrapper was the first really hard thing I had to do).

It's my firm opinion that for the average consumer right now, Linux can offer more value than Windows Vista or OS X, but if you hit consumers with an even remotely difficult installation process (ideally, it should be easier than installing Windows), a lot of them are going to jump ship at that point.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
RThurmont wrote:In my opinion, for a total n00b to attempt to use Slackware OR Gentoo would be a complete disaster,
Slackware isn't that hard, once you get to know it, which admitably takes some effort, but Linux is not Windows, it is going to take some effort to actually understand it anyway.

If you are willing to actually change things with your OS and dive into the differences, why leave Windows at all?
that unlike Slackware and Gentoo, are actually optimized for use on older hardware in the default install.
If I put a slightly beefier harddrive in my P1 box with 16 MB of RAM, a full, default install of Slackware would run just fine. Since the hard drive isn't big enough for that, during install, I uncheck a few of the fat programs I don't need, and it still works fine. What is the problem with that? Slack can also be easily installed from floppy disks, for those machines that don't have bootable CD drives, which as far as I know, is not a common feature.
Actually, bootable CD drives are a pretty common feature nowadays, at least since the Win98 era.

I ran Linux from scratch though, and I shudder at the thought of 16 megs of RAM- even running a lightweight WM on 48 megs of RAM, it kinda blew chunks. That said, browsers using the gecko engine tend to be fat. I'm not a big fan of text mode browsers, since the layout becomes messed up when viewing pages that are formatted only w/ CSS instead of tables. And nowadays, I can't stand not having my bloated apps (firefox/thunderbird, netbeans, java software, etc (Java's packaging makes it annoying to wade through all those directories w/ vim)).

RThurmont- Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing. That said, that's kinda the basic idea of making it more user-friendly. Also, most people do have a few proprietary apps they'd like to keep using, or games, so Linux isn't really for them.


That said, I personally prefer Linux since the command line is actually usable w/o too much work (using CLI on windows is somewhat annoying due to the huge # of flies w/ spaces in them), free dev tools (MS has them too, but usually cut down in some way, and CLI tools suck), huge customizability of everything, SSH and SSHFS, easy scripting already learned for free thanks to knowing the CLI (no need to learn stuff like WSH).

It just "feels" more stable (eg, explorer will often hang on a certain tasks, such as looking for a network drive that is down (although Linux apps will hang too on NFS disonnect, the lack of integration alleviates this somewhat, and I can always do lsof|grep [mountpoint]; killall [processes having files open on said mountpoint] to fix the problem)). Oh, and computers envitably will run into problems, and when they do on a Linux system, I usually can pinpoint exactly what the problem is, while it is a pain on Windows. That, and beryl/compiz :twisted:

Most users don't really have a good reason to switch (other than it makes it harder for them to compromise their systems w/ malware, at least before malware devs catch on (security through obscurity is still some security). Most of the above doesn't really apply to the average user. The other biggest reason to switch is the large library of free software that is bundled/only runs (well) on Linux, but a large number of those (Pidgin, gimp) have windows ports.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by Hugh »

Pu-239 wrote: Also, most people do have a few proprietary apps they'd like to keep using, or games, so Linux isn't really for them.
Like what? Photoshop 7? World of Warcraft? These, and many others, are known to run on Linux (via Wine, but that's a technicality).
Pu-239 wrote: (security through obscurity is still some security)
Obscurity? What obscurity? Linux is open source :D And if you think crackers have few reasons to attack Linux boxes, think of all the Web servers out there. Shouldn't there be a lot more Linux malware on the loose by now, if it was as vulnerable as Windows?
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Post by Pu-239 »

Hugh wrote:
Pu-239 wrote: Also, most people do have a few proprietary apps they'd like to keep using, or games, so Linux isn't really for them.
Like what? Photoshop 7? World of Warcraft? These, and many others, are known to run on Linux (via Wine, but that's a technicality).
Pu-239 wrote: (security through obscurity is still some security)
Obscurity? What obscurity? Linux is open source :D And if you think crackers have few reasons to attack Linux boxes, think of all the Web servers out there. Shouldn't there be a lot more Linux malware on the loose by now, if it was as vulnerable as Windows?
Photoshop 7 is old. CS3 will not run on WINE. What about recent versions of Autocad? Though to be fair, these aren't really "consumer" apps, they're really for the corporate/professional environment (those who aren't using them in such an environment are probably pirating it)- most people should be satisfied w/ gimp. Problem is when people actually need full office compatibility, or financial software, some proprietary browser plugin (this annoyed me last semester, professor put up crappy MathML for assignment only readable w/ a plugin that only ran on IE- all physics/math people should use LaTeX ), or whatever other corner cases they will encounter.

As for security, I was talking more about Linux as a client- I'm not saying Linux is more insecure, it's just that having a smaller userbase adds additional protection (obscurity was not the right word).

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by Hugh »

Destructionator XIII wrote: Gosh darn, asking a user to read the fucking on screen instructions is so impossible!
True :( A lot of people don't even scroll (on Web pages). Reading is out of the question. But that's not the operating system's fault.
Destructionator XIII wrote:
Hugh wrote:And if you think crackers have few reasons to attack Linux boxes, think of all the Web servers out there. Shouldn't there be a lot more Linux malware on the loose by now, if it was as vulnerable as Windows?
Humourously, if you actually look at the facts, you'll find IIS6 on Win2k3 has had less security problems than Apache on Linux.
Now you sound like Steve Ballmer :) Seriously, ever heard of Code Red?
Destructionator XIII wrote: Webservers, first, have nothing at all to do with the consumer situation, where the only problem is the moron between the keyboard and chair, and secondly, Linux loses that battle anyway!
Oh? A Windows (XP) installation has about 30 ports open out-of-the-box. A Linux system, only 5 or 6. Even without a firewall, which do you think has more potential holes? I have a firewall, and it's plain scary to see the number of connection attempts it catches - a dozen every 5 minutes, sometimes more.
Destructionator XIII wrote: The thing people say that most just use email and web browsing is just false. Some people use tax software, which is, you guessed it, Windows. Some people use Microsoft Office and Money, and OOo is no replacement at all, hence Windows. Some people use these silly programs to print out greeting cards - Windows (which actually comprises all the over 40 women I know...).
Have you actually tried to run any of that software in Linux? You might have a few pleasant surprises. Granted, not with MS Office; you-know-who took care of that. As for Open Office not being a replacement, I've had mixed reports. You can't expect two word processors to behave the same with a document "formatted" with TAB and ENTER. In any event, OOo is not the only Office suite available for Linux.
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

Destructionator XIII wrote:As Microsoft puts it, the Total Cost of Ownership is probably about the same, if not higher with Linux.
According to the IDC study, sponsored by guess who.
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Post by phongn »

Hugh wrote:Now you sound like Steve Ballmer :) Seriously, ever heard of Code Red?
Code Red has nothing to do with IIS6 or W2K3. Go look up security reports - the IIS6/W2K3 combination is highly secure.
Oh? A Windows (XP) installation has about 30 ports open out-of-the-box. A Linux system, only 5 or 6. Even without a firewall, which do you think has more potential holes? I have a firewall, and it's plain scary to see the number of connection attempts it catches - a dozen every 5 minutes, sometimes more.
Fortunately, XP SP2 and Vista have built-in firewalls enabled by default.
Have you actually tried to run any of that software in Linux? You might have a few pleasant surprises. Granted, not with MS Office; you-know-who took care of that. As for Open Office not being a replacement, I've had mixed reports. You can't expect two word processors to behave the same with a document "formatted" with TAB and ENTER. In any event, OOo is not the only Office suite available for Linux.
If OOo wants to be a real replacement for Microsoft Office, it must import Microsoft's formats and do it well. And while OOo may not be the only suite on Linux, it's the only one that even comes close to MS Office.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Destructionator XIII wrote:
Also, most people do have a few proprietary apps they'd like to keep using, or games, so Linux isn't really for them.
The thing people say that most just use email and web browsing is just false. Some people use tax software, which is, you guessed it, Windows. Some people use Microsoft Office and Money, and OOo is no replacement at all, hence Windows. Some people use these silly programs to print out greeting cards - Windows (which actually comprises all the over 40 women I know...).

Wine is a damn impressive program, and I have lots of good things to say about it, but the fact is, it doesn't replace Windows for these people.
Well, tax software is a bad example, since there are online versions of those (then again, I believe Intuit's servers got overloaded due to last minute filings, so... Not sure about MS money, I believe gnucash fills that need for the GNOME user).

Most of the over 40 people I know use none of those. Then again, that's usually because they try to avoid the computer for everything if they can get away with it - the web/email crowd is pretty large.

Better example would be casual games, niche software like OpenCanvas (painting over a network (earlier versions only(, kinda what I'm reimplementing in Java), won't run on Linux. Many aren't particularly important (the casual games), but users will complain.

Again, Linux is best for the casual computer user who just happens to not have corner cases, the technophobe who requires email/web (and avoids doing taxes, etc online since they're, well, technophobes- so long as they have someone else to configure stuff), power users/developers, locked down corporate environments which don't require windows-only apps. Otherwise it's somewhat lacking. A big problem is a lot of program names do nothing to indicate what they actually do. Photoshop is self descriptive, Gimp is not, so if an app is available for people to do what they want to do, they won't know about it.

Also with MSOffice, w/ 2007 the user interface has changed significantly, so switching to OO would have less of a learning curve for existing users. Doesn't address the other issues regarding compatibilty though.

Ubuntu doesn't enable a firewall by default, but it also doesn't have any services listening on addresses other than localhost by default anyway. This is probably the best solution as most distros don't really have a way to dynamically open ports if one wants to run, say bittorrent.

Anyway, I'll check out various flavors of links. I've mostly been using w3m for my text mode browsing needs.
Last edited by Pu-239 on 2007-05-10 02:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by Ace Pace »

Oh? A Windows (XP) installation has about 30 ports open out-of-the-box.
I just did a worst case scenario test, no firewall running on a stock Windows XP SP2 fully patched. No Windows firewall.

The test was run on GRC's ShieldsUp! system, there are several 'flaws' with it, but none change the result.

On the basic test, I passed, the only things I did wrong were I replied to a ping and acknowledged my existence. Neither of those are inherently wrong.
Doing a full test of the first 1056 ports on a windows computer had the same solution. A mix of closed and stealthed ports, with the PC just acknowleding it's existence.

Wow, I guess Windows is just a giant security flaw, I had better dump it before the evil craxx0rs steal my identity.
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Post by Pu-239 »

What's really annoying is people on your own side spreading blatantly false FUD :roll:

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by Pu-239 »

In addtion to strong passwords, adding IPtables rules to allow allow X # of connections/minute helps, as well as moving SSH to a nonstandard port. You can also make SSH only accept keyed logins (really the best solution if you only connect from *nix machines you own- also, ssh-agent password caching is nice for the lazy, so long as your machines are physically secure/accounts not compromised).

Have you played around w/ sshfs? I find it extremely useful- lot more convenient for laptops, since one doesn't have to su to root to mount an NFS share, and it's secured, so one can use it over the internet w/o a VPN.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by RThurmont »

Purchase price is irrelevant if you already own Windows. What matters now is your time and your productability. As Microsoft puts it, the Total Cost of Ownership is probably about the same, if not higher with Linux.
That study is (a) several years old, (b) funded by Microsoft, and (c) highly disputed (for a number of reasons, including alleged inclusion of proprietary UNIX administration cost data into the study) to the extent that in 2004 the British Advertising Standards Authority deemed at least one advertisement in it to be "misleading." I could get into a whole discussion as to how TCO costs can vary dramatically depending on how a given OS is deployed, and I probably will at some point in the future, but for the time being, I'm simply putting forward the proposal that right now, attempts by MS to claim that Windows is more expensive range from generally inaccurate to absurd.

Linux can be obtained for free, burned to low-cost installation media, and installed easily, probably by 10-20% of computer users out there at a minimum (there are some ubern00bs who might be foiled by Linux installation, of course). A typical consumer user is unlikely to need professional enterprise support, and can instead use the free online support offered for various distros. As I see it, dual-booting Linux with XP instead of upgrading to Vista is an absolute no-brainer.
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Post by Pu-239 »

Well, after OEMs subsidize windows w/ craplets, you probably break even or even less w/ Windows.... we'll see when Dell starts seling their Linux machines.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by RThurmont »

The problem with the demo apps, of course, is that they don't really add that much value for users (nothing like wasting megabytes of space for a demo version of WordPerfect that you'll never use).

Linux distros, on the other hand, are usually bundled with highly useful software such as Open Office, and are usually free of charge and do not need to be subsidized (although some OEMs could also figure out ways of building additional revenue streams atop it).
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Post by Pu-239 »

I mean the manufacturers of said shitty software pay the OEM to install their crap, not the OEM paying for the shitty software, so the OEM can lower their price for a windows PC

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by RThurmont »

Right, right, I got that. My point was that Linux does not need to be subsidized in that manner, and as an added plus actually comes with useful applications, so it can be a win/win for OEMS (and additionally it will also that much better a platform to bundle demo apps with when proprietary software for it becomes more common).
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Post by Pu-239 »

Um, what I'm saying is that the manufacturer actually makes a profit, not merely subsidizing windows. I believe Dell or some other OEM said that if one didn't want craplets, one would have to pay more. On Linux, craplet vendors aren't as common (thankfully). Heck, stuff that is from craplet vendors such as Realplayer are actually well behaved on Linux.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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Post by Hugh »

Ace Pace wrote:
Oh? A Windows (XP) installation has about 30 ports open out-of-the-box.
I just did a worst case scenario test, no firewall running on a stock Windows XP SP2 fully patched. No Windows firewall. [...]

Doing a full test of the first 1056 ports on a windows computer had the same solution.
"A" Windows computer? Not the same, I gather? :D

For the record, my 30 port figure comes from scanning a coworker's computer at work. Win XP SP2 there. Not sure how well it's patched.
Ace Pace wrote:Wow, I guess Windows is just a giant security flaw, I had better dump it before the evil craxx0rs steal my identity.
Was that sarcasm? It strikes me as true. :D

Really, I know people who never had a malware problem in Windows. Not one. But they're competent: they don't run as administrators by default, they don't use IE nor Outlook, they deactivate unneeded services, etc. But it takes effort to be that careful; Windows makes it too much of a fuss for most people (it did for me). In Linux, security is the default.
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Post by Resinence »

Heres an nmap from my linux box, default network settings.

Code: Select all

Starting Nmap 4.20 ( http://insecure.org ) at 2007-05-11 21:24 EST
Interesting ports on localhost (127.0.0.1):
Not shown: 1696 closed ports
PORT   STATE SERVICE
25/tcp open  smtp

Nmap finished: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 0.146 seconds
Shields up

Code: Select all

----------------------------------------------------------------------

GRC Port Authority Report created on UTC: 2007-05-11 at 11:34:52

Results from scan of ports: 0-1055

    0 Ports Open
    0 Ports Closed
 1056 Ports Stealth
---------------------
 1056 Ports Tested

ALL PORTS tested were found to be: STEALTH.

TruStealth: PASSED - ALL tested ports were STEALTH,
                   - NO unsolicited packets were received,
                   - NO Ping reply (ICMP Echo) was received.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
XP, also default network settings (SP2 with firewall on)

Shields up

Code: Select all

----------------------------------------------------------------------

GRC Port Authority Report created on UTC: 2007-05-11 at 11:44:08

Results from scan of ports: 0-1055

    0 Ports Open
    0 Ports Closed
 1056 Ports Stealth
---------------------
 1056 Ports Tested

ALL PORTS tested were found to be: STEALTH.

TruStealth: PASSED - ALL tested ports were STEALTH,
                   - NO unsolicited packets were received,
                   - NO Ping reply (ICMP Echo) was received.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nmap was the same as on linux. (without the smtp port, which is used by evolution in linux iirc)

Conclusion: Use whatever the fuck you want, and 3 year old studies sponsored by microsoft fail at security testing.
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Post by Pu-239 »

smtp shouldn't be open at all unless you use your machine as a mail server (which evo doesn't do). Debian and some other distros sometimes have exim/sendmail/etc listening on localhost for system messages, so w/ the shieldsup scan it's probably okay though.

ah.....the path to happiness is revision of dreams and not fulfillment... -SWPIGWANG
Sufficient Googling is indistinguishable from knowledge -somebody
Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles. -Sea Skimmer


George Bush makes freedom sound like a giant robot that breaks down a lot. -Darth Raptor
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