Gungans VS Borg

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General Brock
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Post by General Brock »

Batman wrote:
.....
The Borg couldn't possibly screw this up even if Berman were directing.
The Borg actually likely WOULD screw this up even if they were written intelligently for a change, thanks to being outgunned six ways from sunday.
The only reason the Borg are a threat at all in Trek is because they outgun most of the AQ/DQ races something fierce. They most definitely do NOT WRT Wars.
You're assuming the Gunguns have that kind of space-borne firepower in the first place, for some reason. Without the human settlement, they don't have the same level of connection to the rest of the galactic mainstream seen in CW.

If the colony is established for the same reasons as the original timeline one, to alleviate planetside crowding, its not going to be a military outpost armed to the teeth and expertly defended. At best it may be able to deter small pirate forces, with personnel armed with a mix of 'first and third' world technologies. With no reinforcement, its not going to stave off the Borg.
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Post by General Brock »

Batman wrote:
General Brock wrote:
Batman wrote:One wonders why Voyager didn't run into a Borg cube twice every episode under these circumstances... :D
It would be like running into a needle in a haystack the size of a few football fields, probably. ST has a silly sense of scale, but even taking it seriously, the odds of running into Borg ships in that volume of space is remote outside plot device.
Then so is the idea of the Borg actually controlling said space.
Spanning said space. Few outside 8472 challenged their discrete points of occupation and impeded freedom of movement between them. There may have been planets and civilizations that resisted the Borg, but none could challenge their hegemony.
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Post by General Brock »

Stark wrote:Yeah, he seems to think the Gungans are Zulus or something, nowhere near SW-standard technology. He seems to think all examples of Gungan capability are 'imported' and that the Gungans don't understand them. Probably because they have big ears and talk funny. :lol:
The Gunguns needed Naboo human help to colonize a moon, and have no indigenous space-faring technology.

So, it is suddenly impossible for the ST aliens who do space travel to understand hypermatter and hyperdrives right off, yet possible for Gunguns with no background in space travel and who use energy plasma, not hypermatter, to suddenly understand this under a generation?
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Post by Jaevric »

General Brock wrote: The Gunguns needed Naboo human help to colonize a moon, and have no indigenous space-faring technology.

So, it is suddenly impossible for the ST aliens who do space travel to understand hypermatter and hyperdrives right off, yet possible for Gunguns with no background in space travel and who use energy plasma, not hypermatter, to suddenly understand this under a generation?
Erm, the Gungans set up their lunar in under a generation with access to the tech manuals, teachers and technical assistance, and a technology level that is already roughly on par with the rest of the Galaxy's or they wouldn't have power generation and shields that could hold up against fire from the Trade Federation tanks.

The Borg, on the other hand, are vastly inferior technologically, have demonstrated a serious lack of imagination on a regular basis, and *if* they managed to assimilate the colony would be dealing with damaged materials.

As for defenses...if you accept that the Gungans are a fairly militaristic society, why in the middle of a galaxy-spanning civil war would they set up a lunar colony that they expected would be unable to at least attempt to defend itself against at least light raiding forces? Because even "light raiding forces" for the Star Wars universe are damned scary compared to the Borg.

Look at the shield generators the Gungans were using. The generators and their power supplies were movable by pack animals, and were sufficient to hold off a Trade Federation bombardment from ground forces.

Creating theater shields when the generators and power supply do not have to be mobile should not be difficult in comparison, and the shield generators and power supplies could be quite a bit stronger if they didn't have to be hauled around by glorified packmules.
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Post by Stark »

General Brock wrote:So, it is suddenly impossible for the ST aliens who do space travel to understand hypermatter and hyperdrives right off, yet possible for Gunguns with no background in space travel and who use energy plasma, not hypermatter, to suddenly understand this under a generation?
If you don't see the difference between a SW race that's been in communication with the SW baseline for ages and uses and maintains SW baseline technology using other SW baseline technologies and aliens tens of thousands of years behind using it, you're a fucking retard.

I don't see anyone arguing that the Gungans have a fleet - indeed, the Naboo basically don't have a fleet either. You're saying they're primitive and ignorant, and I don't see any evidence for that besides 'Jar Jar talks funny'.
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Post by General Brock »

Jaevric wrote:
Erm, the Gungans set up their lunar in under a generation with access to the tech manuals, teachers and technical assistance, and a technology level that is already roughly on par with the rest of the Galaxy's or they wouldn't have power generation and shields that could hold up against fire from the Trade Federation tanks.
Only Gungun shield tech is considered on par with the rest of the galaxy. They lost when Trade Fed droids walked underneath the sheild, because Gungun infantry weapons are either energized melee weapons, or simple ranged weapons with a low rate of fire. They weren't hitting back near as well as Trade Fed tanks and droids, and in fact had never before fought offworlders. Ewoks were at least facing stormtroopers when they lost 'heroically'; Gunguns are not galactic-level fighters.

Switch Borg for battledroids, and you are only minus heavy artillery which was negated by the shield and droid blasters which were negated by Gungun personal shields. It will end like 'Night of the Zombies' against the Gunguns.
The Borg, on the other hand, are vastly inferior technologically, have demonstrated a serious lack of imagination on a regular basis, and *if* they managed to assimilate the colony would be dealing with damaged materials.
The inferiority of Borg technology and tactics is balanced by the lack of Gungun ingenuity and application of their advantages. The battle on the plain wasn't exactly a stunning Gungun victory, and they even surrendered without destroying their equipment. The Borg could walk underneath a sheild, and since they won't be met with massed blasters, but 'boomers' and cattle prods, they could win, although at a much higher cost.
As for defenses...if you accept that the Gungans are a fairly militaristic society, why in the middle of a galaxy-spanning civil war would they set up a lunar colony that they expected would be unable to at least attempt to defend itself against at least light raiding forces? Because even "light raiding forces" for the Star Wars universe are damned scary compared to the Borg.
Militaristic doesn't mean they are good at it. The army is ceremonial, suggesting their training isn't realistic anymore. They seem to have fought only against each other, and even that, not in a long time. The Gunguns of CW were strongly isolationist, to the point of ignoring who occupied their planet's drier surfaces and their cities had no pre-prepared defences. So to expect them to defend their lunar colony any better is asking a bit much. They probably wouldn't believe a galactic civil war or pirates will affect them, if they considered it at all. Without the Naboo humans, the Gunguns are way out of the Galactic loop.
Look at the shield generators the Gungans were using. The generators and their power supplies were movable by pack animals, and were sufficient to hold off a Trade Federation bombardment from ground forces.

Creating theater shields when the generators and power supply do not have to be mobile should not be difficult in comparison, and the shield generators and power supplies could be quite a bit stronger if they didn't have to be hauled around by glorified packmules.
Well, they had better set the sheilds so that Borg can't walk through them. Superior Gungun sheild generation protected them from Trade Fed ground bombardment - as it would against Borg obital bombardment - but the decisive factors would be the Gungun inability to fire back into space and remove Borg space superiority, which in SW terms would be a joke except that Gunguns may not even be able to launch a kite of their own making, and a lack of anti-personnel ranged weapons to use against Borg walking underneath the theatre sheild, and quite possibly no clue as to what nanite weapons are and can do.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

Batman wrote:And this shows the UFP isn't largely human-dominated how?
It shows nonhumans have substantial presence, power, and influence in the Federation including holding their highest and most powerful offices. That humans are disproportionately powerful in a multispecies confederation which draws upon the scientific and technical knowledge of all of its member species doesn't make its tech base non native.

Which leads me in a round about way back to the main point of the topic. The Gungans theatre and personal shields work quite well against the Trade Federation's pet military. Their ball weapons are silly, but they do take out droids and the larger ones kill tanks. They apply their technology in unusual ways, but it seems to work just as well as the mainstream Star Wars civilization. And having silly, but somewhat effective ranged weapons beats the crap out of not using any (I'm looking at you Borg).
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Post by General Brock »

Stark wrote: If you don't see the difference between a SW race that's been in communication with the SW baseline for ages and uses and maintains SW baseline technology using other SW baseline technologies and aliens tens of thousands of years behind using it, you're a fucking retard.

I don't see anyone arguing that the Gungans have a fleet - indeed, the Naboo basically don't have a fleet either. You're saying they're primitive and ignorant, and I don't see any evidence for that besides 'Jar Jar talks funny'.
The Gunguns were only 'in touch' with the SW baseline by happenstance; some of their indigenous organic technologies happened to perform to galactic standard. They don't care for offworlders problems. They've never even fought offworlders before. They're not in any better position to grasp SW standard tech than the Borg are. The Borg at least are part computer and can do the math more 'naturally'.

Also, since people bred crops for millenia without deep scientific understanding, there is no reason to expect the Gunguns to have a galactic standard grasp of physics and mechanics because they have locap plants and natually occuring energy plasma doing some of the basic engineering for them. Gunguns are not part of greater Galactic society and privy to its technological marvels. Unless the Gunguns of the OP have made radical changes to their CW cultural outlook, they are not going to fare well against the Borg.

Naboo humans aided the Gungun space effort. Since they aren't here, you are assuming that anyone aiding them is going to be as geneorus, while I am assuming they will be dealing with beings closer to 17th century whisky traders. Before you say I am condescending again, bear in mind modern people get ripped off by scammers, and the SW universe is full of such scum and villany, especially on the fringes of the decaying Republic. The Gunguns are not going to be getting the best of any deals made with offworld traders any more than the non-existant Naboo humans did their first time around despite being better informed.

So, the Gunguns established a lunar colony with no fleet of spacecraft at all? The American shuttle 'fleet' is down to three vessels, and still proudly called a fleet. To establish a colony on Ohma Dhun that could offset population problems would require some form of space transportation, bought, rented, or hired. The Gunguns have never demonstrated a history of indigenous space travel. Until Boss Nass made treaties with Naboo humans to start that history, that is.

Gunguns are ignorant and primitive by SW standards. There is no way to be politically correct about this; Gunguns were deliberately portrayed with all the theatrical signals of primitive ignorance/innocence/noble savagery, from funny English to style of dress, to choice of weapons, to not knowing the latest gossip from Coruscant about an impending civil war even when humans were on their planet, to noble defeat in a hopeless battle. You could never mistake them for Kaminoans.
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Post by General Brock »

Imperial Overlord wrote:
Batman wrote:And this shows the UFP isn't largely human-dominated how?
... And having silly, but somewhat effective ranged weapons beats the crap out of not using any (I'm looking at you Borg).
Um, hmmm, well it all fun and games till someone runs out of ammunition. Or drones.
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Post by dworkin »

This is like figuring the Pope is an easy target by looking at the guys in puffy shirts with halberds.

Gungans have personal shields, theatre shields, city shields that keep the ocean out, the power tech to run said shields, shielded submersibles, EMP greanades and AT shells. It seems that their tech level is up to galactic standards. They don't have a military worth speaking of but niether did the Naboo.

Their "Grand Army", so called by the village idiot, seemed like a ceremonial guard. Which would explain the entire 'retro' look, use of torsion catapults and pack animals.

In TPM, the Gungan 'army' was a distraction intended to draw out the personal guard of the Viceroy. If they had formed a proper field force, the Viceroy would of screamed for relief forces which would of rapidly turned up and turned the occupation into a loss/loss for the locals. So, in the scenario the ceremonial troops were ideal. The Viceroy could deal with them with his availiable forces and won't call for help because that would make him look like an idiot. He does of course ask his shadowy backer, whats going on, but that's ok since they're usually not present at board meetings.

If actually threatened the Gungans would probably start building an actual force while safe behind theatre shields under water. The speed of this response would depend on two factors.

1) How 'retro' style they feel they can make their weapons.

2) How much damage the village idiot Binks causes the process.

It is of course it is entirely feasable that they just shove Jar-Jar outside the shield and say "Go on, assimilate away, hur, hur."
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Post by Cao Cao »

General Brock wrote:The Gunguns were only 'in touch' with the SW baseline by happenstance; some of their indigenous organic technologies happened to perform to galactic standard. They don't care for offworlders problems. They've never even fought offworlders before. They're not in any better position to grasp SW standard tech than the Borg are.
Define "standard" tech. Republic? Empire? There are many, many factions in the SW galaxy with their own technology that's equivalent to others. The Gungans are one of them. Their theatre shields withstand repeated attacks from Trade Federation tanks. Their underwater technology seems more advanced than that of the Naboo given that they're considered elusive.
You have no basis for saying that they are inherently inferior to other SW factions.
The Borg at least are part computer and can do the math more 'naturally'.
The Borg couldn't even work out how to use their own technology effectively against 8472, the holodoc had to do it for them.
So no, I wouldn't give them more of a chance.
Gunguns are ignorant and primitive by SW standards. There is no way to be politically correct about this; Gunguns were deliberately portrayed with all the theatrical signals of primitive ignorance/innocence/noble savagery, from funny English to style of dress, to choice of weapons, to not knowing the latest gossip from Coruscant about an impending civil war even when humans were on their planet, to noble defeat in a hopeless battle. You could never mistake them for Kaminoans.
Um.. they don't care about the latest gossip from Coruscant. That's a human concern. In fact you yourself said this earlier.
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Post by Civil War Man »

Arguments for a Borg victory seem to be largely based around "the Gungans look primitive. Plus Jar Jar is stupid."

The Trade Federation army, which was fielding much better tech than the Borg would, was being held back pretty well by the Gungans until they were able to knock down the shield generator, at which point they could use their heavy armor to turn the tide.

The Borg have inferior tech (it may look more techie, but it is still millenia behind the Star Wars standard), no heavy armor, and a fraction of the Trade Federation's numbers. Assuming for the moment that the Borg could adapt to the apparently electrical part of the Gungan weaponry somehow, they'd still have a hell of a time with the massive kinetic impact, especially from the Gungan catapults. And considering that Borg tactics are similar to the Trade Federation's ("Let's all get together in a big group and walk towards them"), the drones would make perfect targets for said catapults.
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Post by Imperial Overlord »

On the subject of the Gungans being cut off from galactic society, it is notable that they speak their own dialect of Basic. However reclusive they are, they can communicate in the galaxy's lingua franca without needing protocal droids or other translators. Combine that with the effectiveness of their tenchnology, especially their shields, and they merely seem somewhat insular.
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Post by Starglider »

At this point we have to ask if the Borg could even beat the Ewoks. :)
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Starglider wrote:At this point we have to ask if the Borg could even beat the Ewoks
:lol: I hope they assimilate only one ewok. McEwok.
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Post by General Brock »

dworkin wrote:This is like figuring the Pope is an easy target by looking at the guys in puffy shirts with halberds.

Gungans have personal shields, theatre shields, city shields that keep the ocean out, the power tech to run said shields, shielded submersibles, EMP greanades and AT shells. It seems that their tech level is up to galactic standards. They don't have a military worth speaking of but niether did the Naboo.

Their "Grand Army", so called by the village idiot, seemed like a ceremonial guard. Which would explain the entire 'retro' look, use of torsion catapults and pack animals.

In TPM, the Gungan 'army' was a distraction intended to draw out the personal guard of the Viceroy. If they had formed a proper field force, the Viceroy would of screamed for relief forces which would of rapidly turned up and turned the occupation into a loss/loss for the locals. So, in the scenario the ceremonial troops were ideal. The Viceroy could deal with them with his availiable forces and won't call for help because that would make him look like an idiot. He does of course ask his shadowy backer, whats going on, but that's ok since they're usually not present at board meetings.

If actually threatened the Gungans would probably start building an actual force while safe behind theatre shields under water. The speed of this response would depend on two factors.

1) How 'retro' style they feel they can make their weapons.

2) How much damage the village idiot Binks causes the process.

It is of course it is entirely feasable that they just shove Jar-Jar outside the shield and say "Go on, assimilate away, hur, hur."
The Grand Army is also right out of the Databank, as are its functions and capabilites. Which appears to be a juiced-up form of weekend SCA.

The Gunguns may eventually figure out even their civilian tech is better than the Borg... probably some time after evacuating to the nearest sacred place at the first sign of trouble and well after the Borg have retreated.

While it clashes with what I thought I saw, it seems the Grand Army wasn't even mobilized until after Amidala flattered Boss Nass into defending his own planet.

Their only hope is to let Jar Jar be assimilated first.
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Post by General Brock »

Imperial Overlord wrote:On the subject of the Gungans being cut off from galactic society, it is notable that they speak their own dialect of Basic. However reclusive they are, they can communicate in the galaxy's lingua franca without needing protocal droids or other translators. Combine that with the effectiveness of their tenchnology, especially their shields, and they merely seem somewhat insular.
Could be; they may have their own trade links outside the humans. SW is pretty good about presenting realistic language barriers and trade relations. Or, the use of Basic may have been encouraged by the presence of Naboo humans, or an as-yet undisclosed remnant of their history.

The Gunguns of the Clone Wars movie were insular and disinterested in Galactic affairs; this may have been a reaction to the human presence, and without it their cultural development might have gone otherwise.
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Post by Singular Intellect »

Starglider wrote:At this point we have to ask if the Borg could even beat the Ewoks. :)
I think it's been well established that few here think anything of Trek can beat anything of Wars.
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Post by General Brock »

Cao Cao wrote: Define "standard" tech. Republic? Empire? There are many, many factions in the SW galaxy with their own technology that's equivalent to others. The Gungans are one of them. Their theatre shields withstand repeated attacks from Trade Federation tanks. Their underwater technology seems more advanced than that of the Naboo given that they're considered elusive.
You have no basis for saying that they are inherently inferior to other SW factions.
Republic of that time period, as they dominate the Galaxy.
The Borg couldn't even work out how to use their own technology effectively against 8472, the holodoc had to do it for them.
So no, I wouldn't give them more of a chance.
True, but understanding advanced physics requires a good grasp of mathematics. Its still a big jump to material expression, but the Borg could plug into SW tech as easily as anyone who just buys it, and program what they learn across the collective in a few downloads, not years of schooling.

The human-free moonbase would have some of the knowledge available, but not enough for the Borg to instantly adapt. They would leave the moment they understood Gunguns are not representative of SW power.
Um.. they don't care about the latest gossip from Coruscant. That's a human concern. In fact you yourself said this earlier.
Except that a 'militaristic' society presented as being more competent than its known demonstrations, might try to maintain intel on the galaxy's dominant power, and monitor it for any developments affecting their sovereignty. Unless that militarism is only for tradition, ceremony, and local wildlife management.
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Post by General Brock »

Civil War Man wrote:Arguments for a Borg victory seem to be largely based around "the Gungans look primitive. Plus Jar Jar is stupid."

The Trade Federation army, which was fielding much better tech than the Borg would, was being held back pretty well by the Gungans until they were able to knock down the shield generator, at which point they could use their heavy armor to turn the tide.

The Borg have inferior tech (it may look more techie, but it is still millenia behind the Star Wars standard), no heavy armor, and a fraction of the Trade Federation's numbers. Assuming for the moment that the Borg could adapt to the apparently electrical part of the Gungan weaponry somehow, they'd still have a hell of a time with the massive kinetic impact, especially from the Gungan catapults. And considering that Borg tactics are similar to the Trade Federation's ("Let's all get together in a big group and walk towards them"), the drones would make perfect targets for said catapults.
That's assuming the Gunguns get it together and actually try and fight, and will have the resources on the moon base to defeat the zombie hoards.

The Trade Fed army won, despite its leadership. Victory was stolen by a lucky shot. Sure, the Gunguns can take out tanks, but Borgs don't use tanks. Unless there is a setting for area effect on those catapult boomers, they still are stuck with cattle prods and one-shot, one kill energy slingshots.

Come to think of it, why didn't they just plaster the infantry droids with one or two salvos of big energy rocks?
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Post by Stark »

Bubble Boy wrote:I think it's been well established that few here think anything of Trek can beat anything of Wars.
Get fucked you smarmy git. Let's see, bears with arrows versus lumbering zombies with vampire claws... hmmm. I mean, this whole 'would they even do it' debate would be far more relevant to the Ewoks. Oh wait, you're just tossing out bullshit one-liners without bothering to think about it. :roll:
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Post by General Brock »

Bubble Boy wrote:
Starglider wrote:At this point we have to ask if the Borg could even beat the Ewoks. :)
I think it's been well established that few here think anything of Trek can beat anything of Wars.
That's because outside gross mismanagement and incredibly bad luck most things SW can out-muscle anything ST in a 'fair' fight.

In terms of bad writing and ridiculous plot results and other deux ex machina for improbable outcomes, SW and ST could be are about equal, except that SW has a lot more volume of junk canon, so SW beats ST even here.

The formula they share is that the bad guys always have superior empowerment and usually win the first fight, then lose the installment because of some critical flaw, while the good guys are significantly underempowered but hang in long enough to exploit that critical flaw.

Reverse polarity on the formula, and there is the good probability that superiorly empowered good guys will totally screw up defeating the inferior bad guys in the first round, because there has to be a round two. The Borg take Omah D'un.

The 'good guys' (which I mean to be the Gunguns) still win, because the Borg (who are supposed to be the bad guys) decide to leave without trying to take their homeworld, their critical flaw being the realization they shouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against anyone with a good blaster.

This is minus the second climatic battle because a noble human isn't there to inspire it from the Gunguns, and anti-climatic endings occasionally happen in SW and pretty much always in ST: Voy.

Ewoks are unworthy of assimilation. It would be more exciting to see Wookies tearing into Borg.
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Post by Batman »

General Brock wrote:
Civil War Man wrote:Arguments for a Borg victory seem to be largely based around "the Gungans look primitive. Plus Jar Jar is stupid."
The Trade Federation army, which was fielding much better tech than the Borg would, was being held back pretty well by the Gungans until they were able to knock down the shield generator, at which point they could use their heavy armor to turn the tide.
The Borg have inferior tech (it may look more techie, but it is still millenia behind the Star Wars standard), no heavy armor, and a fraction of the Trade Federation's numbers. Assuming for the moment that the Borg could adapt to the apparently electrical part of the Gungan weaponry somehow, they'd still have a hell of a time with the massive kinetic impact, especially from the Gungan catapults. And considering that Borg tactics are similar to the Trade Federation's ("Let's all get together in a big group and walk towards them"), the drones would make perfect targets for said catapults.
That's assuming the Gunguns get it together and actually try and fight, and will have the resources on the moon base to defeat the zombie hoards.
Who will have numerical superiority because you say so despite the Borg having a history of NOT sending in overwhelming numbers. Whereas the Gungans (are you INTENTIONALLY misspelling that?) DID get it together and tried to fight against the TF.
The Trade Fed army won, despite its leadership.
Having vastly superior numbers and equal or superior firepower does that for you. The Borg have neither, at least initially. Happily ignoring that the Gungan assault was a distraction.
Victory was stolen by a lucky shot. Sure, the Gunguns can take out tanks, but Borgs don't use tanks. Unless there is a setting for area effect on those catapult boomers, they still are stuck with cattle prods and one-shot, one kill energy slingshots.
Which handily outrange Borg drones, what with them needing direct physical contact to assimilate AND being slow as molasses.
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Post by Batman »

General Brock wrote:
Bubble Boy wrote:
Starglider wrote:At this point we have to ask if the Borg could even beat the Ewoks. :)
I think it's been well established that few here think anything of Trek can beat anything of Wars.
That's because outside gross mismanagement and incredibly bad luck most things SW can out-muscle anything ST in a 'fair' fight.
In terms of bad writing and ridiculous plot results and other deux ex machina for improbable outcomes, SW and ST could be are about equal, except that SW has a lot more volume of junk canon, so SW beats ST even here.
Given the volume of 'junk canon' on the ST side includes VOY and ENT you'll excuse me if I doubt that. Yes, there's a lot of shitty writing in the Wars EU, but I doubt there's enough of it to outsuck 7 seasons worth of VOY.
The formula they share is that the bad guys always have superior empowerment and usually win the first fight, then lose the installment because of some critical flaw, while the good guys are significantly underempowered but hang in long enough to exploit that critical flaw.
Which is why the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians initially beat the Federation. Oh wait.
Reverse polarity on the formula, and there is the good probability that superiorly empowered good guys will totally screw up defeating the inferior bad guys in the first round, because there has to be a round two.
Which is why the Republic was royally trounced by the Separatists when the Clone Wars broke out. Oh wait.
The 'good guys' (which I mean to be the Gunguns) still win, because the Borg (who are supposed to be the bad guys) decide to leave without trying to take their homeworld, their critical flaw being the realization they shouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against anyone with a good blaster.
Actually the Gungans win thanks to the Borg being abysmally stupid and a couple dozen millenia behind the Wars technology curve. Which the Gungans ARE more or less on par with, your blatherings about their implementation of that technology notwithstanding. Whichever way they choose to do it, the Gungans have firepower, shield resilience, and power generation on par with or at least close to the Republic (and thus the empire). Learn to live with it.
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'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
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Stark
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Post by Stark »

Oh christ is it the 'good guys always win' out-of-universe bullshit again? I thought we were comparing capabilities. Le sigh.
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