Gungans VS Borg

[General Brock]

Who will have numerical superiority because you say so despite the Borg having a history of NOT sending in overwhelming numbers. Whereas the Gungans (are you INTENTIONALLY misspelling that?) DID get it together and tried to fight against the TF.

This versus scenario isn't going to last long or be worth considering unless the Borg do send in overwhelming numbers. Without superior numbers, Borg quietly infiltrate key facilities and assimilate key or stray Gungan personnel. Since the Gungans tend to need a lot of prodding to be reminded they are in a fight, this actually works in the Borg's favour.

Yes, I was intentionally misspelling Gungun because that's how it comes off phonetically in my head.

Having vastly superior numbers and equal or superior firepower does that for you. The Borg have neither, at least initially. Happily ignoring that the Gungan assault was a distraction.

... There are smarter way to conduct a diversionary attack. Like, a fighting retreat keeping the droids engaged and moving away from Theed, perhaps even spread out more, after the theatre shield fails. Instead they advanced, losing quicker than they would have, shortening the period of their diversion.

Which handily outrange Borg drones, what with them needing direct physical contact to assimilate AND being slow as molasses.

It doesn't appear that the Gungan range weapons have near the capacity of a good blaster. If the Gungan deployment is indicative of how they fight with each other, they pelt each other with a smattering of ranged then close to melee, a primitive warrior order of battle.

[Ritterin Sophia]

This versus scenario isn't going to last long or be worth considering unless the Borg do send in overwhelming numbers. Without superior numbers, Borg quietly infiltrate key facilities and assimilate key or stray Gungan personnel. Since the Gungans tend to need a lot of prodding to be reminded they are in a fight, this actually works in the Borg's favour.

Why the fuck would they do that? It's make tired old repeated line that alerts our enemies to our presence, then hammer their shields until it fails, then send over shuffling zombies.

It doesn't appear that the Gungan range weapons have near the capacity of a good blaster. If the Gungan deployment is indicative of how they fight with each other, they pelt each other with a smattering of ranged then close to melee, a primitive warrior order of battle.

Yet, they still outrange a phaser, and if a Bat'leth (This is a melee with the worst ergonomic form ever) hurt them like that, I can only imagine what one of those electrical spears will do.

[General Brock]

Given the volume of 'junk canon' on the ST side includes VOY and ENT you'll excuse me if I doubt that. Yes, there's a lot of shitty writing in the Wars EU, but I doubt there's enough of it to outsuck 7 seasons worth of VOY.

Except that ST discounts the books. One by Peter David had Borg carving up the planet of an advanced civilization like a prime roast.

Which is why the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians initially beat the Federation. Oh wait.... Which is why the Republic was royally trounced by the Separatists when the Clone Wars broke out. Oh wait. ...

Most combat episodes have the Federation responding to first blood. The Republic's Jedi lost to the Separatists when the Clone Wars broke out and had to be rescued by a stronger Republic force.

Actually the Gungans win thanks to the Borg being abysmally stupid and a couple dozen millenia behind the Wars technology curve. Which the Gungans ARE more or less on par with, your blatherings about their implementation of that technology notwithstanding. Whichever way they choose to do it, the Gungans have firepower, shield resilience, and power generation on par with or at least close to the Republic (and thus the empire). Learn to live with it.

The Gungans have a planet-bound civilization in CW. Assuming the lunar colony was constructed under the same tech conditions as the movie Gungans, they couldn't possibly have SW power generation levels, because they don't need that kind of power to operate cities in a society with industry not geared to galactic trade and vessels not needing hyperdrives for interstellar travel and a military not regularly engaged in skirmishes with offworlders who do have high-leveled power generation.

When the Naboo humans were there, power goo was exported like some kind of crude oil. Its not hypermatter.

Your vision of the Gungan exceeds their depiction in the Clone Wars movie and SW databank.

[Cao Cao]

How can you say that the Gungans don't have power-generation on par with SW standard when TPM blatantly shows otherwise? Their shields withstood TF firepower indefinitely. No ifs or buts.

[General Brock]

Why the fuck would they do that? It's make tired old repeated line that alerts our enemies to our presence, then hammer their shields until it fails, then send over shuffling zombies.

Because Batman says my scenario can't have superior numbers.

Yet, they still outrange a phaser, and if a Bat'leth (This is a melee with the worst ergonomic form ever) hurt them like that, I can only imagine what one of those electrical spears will do.

The Gungans would be more effective with a sword to cut off Borg arms once they run out of boomers or if the Borg get close enough to interfere with reloading. I didn't see too many swords in the Gungan Grand Army.

Since the spear can take out large Naboo animals, it will kill Borg. One at a time, even after the battery goo runs out.

[General Brock]

How can you say that the Gungans don't have power-generation on par with SW standard when TPM blatantly shows otherwise? Their shields withstood TF firepower indefinitely. No ifs or buts.

And their return fire disabled Trade Fed tanks.

SW has more potent weapons than paramilitary Trade Fed tanks.

[Stark]

What? You've changed sides now? Now the Gungans have SW-level firepower, and they'd defeat borg-standard shamblers?

Should we point out how strong Gungans are? It appeared it was a space debate before, but on the ground Gungans will *rape* Borg. They even have cavalry, something Borg have zero defence against. Orbital bombardment (with FC grenade yields, I guess) is the only way they're going to win on the ground.

[General Brock]

What? You've changed sides now? Now the Gungans have SW-level firepower, and they'd defeat borg-standard shamblers?

Should we point out how strong Gungans are? It appeared it was a space debate before, but on the ground Gungans will *rape* Borg. They even have cavalry, something Borg have zero defence against. Orbital bombardment (with FC grenade yields, I guess) is the only way they're going to win on the ground.

I haven't changed sides. The Gungan standing army was defeated by a paramilitary police SWAT force of cheap droids using the lower end of SW power generation.

The Trade Fed 'battleship' didn't even or couldn't even deliver orbital strikes in support of its tanks against the theatre shield.

[Cao Cao]

How can you say that the Gungans don't have power-generation on par with SW standard when TPM blatantly shows otherwise? Their shields withstood TF firepower indefinitely. No ifs or buts.

And their return fire disabled Trade Fed tanks.

SW has more potent weapons than paramilitary Trade Fed tanks.

So now you're assuming that TF tanks must be weak because Gungans killed them and therefore Gungan shields are weak, rather than concluding that Gungan weaponry is powerful?
What? You do know those same type of droids and tanks were used against the Republic later on, right?

[Cao Cao]

I haven't changed sides. The Gungan standing army was defeated by a paramilitary police SWAT force of cheap droids using the lower end of SW power generation.

So basically you're downsizing the Trade Federation to suit your argument?

The Trade Fed 'battleship' didn't even or couldn't even deliver orbital strikes in support of its tanks against the theatre shield.

Neither did Vader's Death Squadron in TESB. SW theatre shields are just that tough.

[General Brock]

...
Should we point out how strong Gungans are? It appeared it was a space debate before, but on the ground Gungans will *rape* Borg. They even have cavalry, something Borg have zero defence against. Orbital bombardment (with FC grenade yields, I guess) is the only way they're going to win on the ground.

The Borg don't rely on physical strength alone.

The Borg have nannies. Mon Mothma was infected with such a weapon and it took a Jedi healer to identify and deal with it, as it eluded the medi scans of the Republic.

The Gungans have no defense against that weapon, probably couldn't conceive of it, and the Borg can deliver nannies against living beings and machines.

In melee combat, the Gungans will not realize there is a problem until it is too late, especially if they appear to be winning as they slaughter large numbers of Borg.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Because Batman says my scenario can't have superior numbers.

So you're saying they're going to do something we've never seen the Borg do even when they could be outnumbered.

The Gungans would be more effective with a sword to cut off Borg arms once they run out of boomers or if the Borg get close enough to interfere with reloading. I didn't see too many swords in the Gungan Grand Army.

Since the spear can take out large Naboo animals, it will kill Borg. One at a time, even after the battery goo runs out.

Why do they need swords? They're more likely to get wedged into the Borgs armor than a piercing weapon that can just touch a human sized target and kill him.

[Cao Cao]

The Borg don't rely on physical strength alone.

The Borg have nannies. Mon Mothma was infected with such a weapon and it took a Jedi healer to identify and deal with it, as it eluded the medi scans of the Republic.

The Gungans have no defense against that weapon, probably couldn't conceive of it, and the Borg can deliver nannies against living beings and machines.

In melee combat, the Gungans will not realize there is a problem until it is too late, especially if they appear to be winning as they slaughter large numbers of Borg.

Borg Nanites must be directly injected into victims, or did you forget that? They're going to have a hard time doing that while bring cut to ribbons and blown up. And if they do, the effect is immediately obvious. Victim turns grey and sprouts nasty Borg parts. This might cause Gungans in the area to panic and flee if they've not seen it before, but it would be a momentary lapse at worst.

[General Brock]

I haven't changed sides. The Gungan standing army was defeated by a paramilitary police SWAT force of cheap droids using the lower end of SW power generation.

So basically you're downsizing the Trade Federation to suit your argument?

The Trade Fed 'battleship' didn't even or couldn't even deliver orbital strikes in support of its tanks against the theatre shield.

Neither did Vader's Death Squadron in TESB. SW theatre shields are just that tough.

The Trade Federation downsized itself at Naboo. The Gungans still couldn't win.

Hoth wasn't using a Gungan shield generator.

[Cao Cao]

The Trade Federation downsized itself at Naboo. The Gungans still couldn't win.

The size of their force does not equate to the power.
And the TF won because the TF are not the Borg. They have SW level firepower.

Hoth wasn't using a Gungan shield generator.

That's not my point and you know it. You said the TF ship didn't bombard the shield and must therefore be weak. I pointed out that an Imperial Star Dreadnought didn't try to do that either vs. another theatre shield.
Hence there's no bloody indication that the TF ship is so very much weaker than SW standard.

[Stark]

The Borg don't rely on physical strength alone.

The Borg have nannies. Mon Mothma was infected with such a weapon and it took a Jedi healer to identify and deal with it, as it eluded the medi scans of the Republic.

The Gungans have no defense against that weapon, probably couldn't conceive of it, and the Borg can deliver nannies against living beings and machines.

In melee combat, the Gungans will not realize there is a problem until it is too late, especially if they appear to be winning as they slaughter large numbers of Borg.

Okay, you're an idiot or a troll. This post basically says 'nanites = high tech, thus win'. They deliver them MANUALLY. Who CARES if the Gungans can't reverse it? I BET they'll let the Borg STAB THEM WITH NEEDLES because they 'don't realise there's a problem'.

XANATOS

[General Brock]

Borg Nanites must be directly injected into victims, or did you forget that? They're going to have a hard time doing that while bring cut to ribbons and blown up. And if they do, the effect is immediately obvious. Victim turns grey and sprouts nasty Borg parts. This might cause Gungans in the area to panic and flee if they've not seen it before, but it would be a momentary lapse at worst.

In melee combat, pockets of soldiers fleeing in panic, even within a superior force, usually results in more panic, confusion, and a route of the superior force.

[Cao Cao]

In melee combat, pockets of soldiers fleeing in panic, even within a superior force, usually results in more panic, confusion, and a route of the superior force.

*If* they panic, which is pure speculation on my part.
*If* it's commonplace and they don't get used to it after the first occurence after all. These are soldiers, not lemmings.

[General Brock]

So you're saying they're going to do something we've never seen the Borg do even when they could be outnumbered.

Guinan in TNG seemed to mention Borg swarming, when they set out to assimilate a target, such as her civilization. The implied power of the Borg, initially at least, was in part that they used numbers as well as adaptivity.

Why do they need swords? They're more likely to get wedged into the Borgs armor than a piercing weapon that can just touch a human sized target and kill him.

Because if you cut off a Borg's right arm, its only weapon is neutralized, and swordsmen racing through Borg ranks disarming rather than killing them, as well as spearmen killing them with a spear thrust through the body, would end the threat more quickly.

[Cao Cao]

Guinan in TNG seemed to mention Borg swarming, when they set out to assimilate a target, such as her civilization. The implied power of the Borg, initially at least, was in part that they used numbers as well as adaptivity.

Numbers as in throwing more men into the meatgrinder.
You're talking about careful, stealthy infiltration. Something they've only come close to doing in First Contact, and even then they botched it by making their presence blatantly obvious by taking over engineering.

[General Brock]

Okay, you're an idiot or a troll. This post basically says 'nanites = high tech, thus win'. They deliver them MANUALLY. Who CARES if the Gungans can't reverse it? I BET they'll let the Borg STAB THEM WITH NEEDLES because they 'don't realise there's a problem'.

XANATOS

In melee combat, its hard to avoid getting injured, most primitive warriors will take a few scratches on the way to a kill and not see it as a problem.

The Gungans facing a weapon they didn't train for and outside their experience aren't going to do very well. They will break, as long as the Borg have the numbers.

Since the scenario I put out involved the moon colony, the Borg may be better able ti fight close-quarters than Gungans trained to fight on an open plain. Naboo has extensive underwater caves, though.

[General Brock]

Numbers as in throwing more men into the meatgrinder.
You're talking about careful, stealthy infiltration. Something they've only come close to doing in First Contact, and even then they botched it by making their presence blatantly obvious by taking over engineering.

This thread was an invitation to discuss a Borg vs Gungan scenario. It was more interesting to take up the side of the underdog.

My primary scenario was throwing Borg into the meatgrinder to take a civilian lunar colony. In the ST movie, The Borg did take engineering; they were inevitably found out, and since they were survivors from the lost cube, they didn't have the numbers to win and tried to rig the sensor dish to call in help.

No reason to expect them not to call for backup against a Gungan colony, unless they just sit there as they did when Q first introduced them and they did nothing (at first). With the wormhole right there, in their space, a mass response seemed likely.

[Cao Cao]

This thread was an invitation to discuss a Borg vs Gungan scenario. It was more interesting to take up the side of the underdog.

Which is fine and dandy, but you don't get to pull new abilities out of thin air for them.

My primary scenario was throwing Borg into the meatgrinder to take a civilian lunar colony. In the ST movie, The Borg did take engineering; they were inevitably found out, and since they were survivors from the lost cube, they didn't have the numbers to win and tried to rig the sensor dish to call in help.

No reason to expect them not to call for backup against a Gungan colony, unless they just sit there as they did when Q first introduced them and they did nothing (at first). With the wormhole right there, in their space, a mass response seemed likely.

And by the time they call for backup and it arrives the Gungans are now fully alerted to their presence and have set up their defenses.
That's *if* they call for backup at all and don't go for the usual one-cube-every-decade strategy when dealing with distant targets.

[General Brock]

In melee combat, pockets of soldiers fleeing in panic, even within a superior force, usually results in more panic, confusion, and a route of the superior force.

*If* they panic, which is pure speculation on my part.
*If* it's commonplace and they don't get used to it after the first occurence after all. These are soldiers, not lemmings.

Most of whom are apparently militiagung; part timers who have never seen any combat, such as the Gungan army engages in it.

[General Brock]

Which is fine and dandy, but you don't get to pull new abilities out of thin air for them.

Fair enough. I may have read a few too many fanfics where swarming Borg are routinely slaughtered, and got to believing swarming was what Borg do.

And by the time they call for backup and it arrives the Gungans are now fully alerted to their presence and have set up their defenses.
That's *if* they call for backup at all and don't go for the usual one-cube-every-decade strategy when dealing with distant targets.

And the Gungans don't react by retreating to the nearest sacred place to regroup there, and have defenses that work in space, and the wormhole isn't deep in Borg space.