Gungans VS Borg

[General Brock]

The size of their force does not equate to the power.
And the TF won because the TF are not the Borg. They have SW level firepower.

The Trade Feds had power on the lower end of the SW spectrum. They won because the Gungans were no match for a private police force designed to deal with low-level resistance.

Hoth wasn't using a Gungan shield generator.

That's not my point and you know it. You said the TF ship didn't bombard the shield and must therefore be weak. I pointed out that an Imperial Star Dreadnought didn't try to do that either vs. another theatre shield.
Hence there's no bloody indication that the TF ship is so very much weaker than SW standard.

I thought you were saying Theatre Shield=Automatically Impermeable regardless of scale and manufacturer.

It is possible both Vader and the Trade Feds wanted prisoners, and taking out the theatre shield would have resulted in too much collateral damage.

However, without being tested against an orbital bombardment by a vessel higher up the SW scale of firepower than a paramilitary tank, there is no reason the expect the Gungans to be competitive with official Republic military technology.

[Civil War Man]

It is possible both Vader and the Trade Feds wanted prisoners, and taking out the theatre shield would have resulted in too much collateral damage.

Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment

The Trade Feds had power on the lower end of the SW spectrum. They won because the Gungans were no match for a private police force designed to deal with low-level resistance.

You do realize that the Trade Federation did not have to redesign their entire army in order to fight the Republic, right? All they needed was to build more of their pre-existing units, plus put a new design on the table for when they need a bit more firepower. In fact, these "private police force" units you talk about are still being used on the front lines at the end of the Clone Wars. Had they been as weak as you are trying to cast them, the original battle droid design would have been phased out long before.

The Trade Federation wasn't on the lower end of the SW spectrum. Until the Clones were created, the Commerce Guilds were the largest military force in the galaxy. They were the spectrum. So like it or not, the Gungans were able to hold against a major power long enough for the control ship to be destroyed. Not only that, they were holding them off very effectively until the shield was destroyed and the Trade Federation tanks could be used.

[TC Pilot]

The Trade Federation wasn't on the lower end of the SW spectrum. Until the Clones were created, the Commerce Guilds were the largest military force in the galaxy. They were the spectrum. So like it or not, the Gungans were able to hold against a major power long enough for the control ship to be destroyed. Not only that, they were holding them off very effectively until the shield was destroyed and the Trade Federation tanks could be used.

Watch TPM again.

The droids walked in essentially a phalanx formation, with the front line being the only part capable of firing without shooting a droid directly in front. Despite this rather horrid weakness, the Gungan formation could only survive for as long as the front line held the personal shields up, covering the soldiers behind as they lobbed their... whatever.

Cavalry charges (head on, mind you) were attempted, only to be mowed down by droidekas. Meanwhile, the regular battle droids closed to within hand-to-hand combat range, forcing the front Gungan line to drop their shilds, opening the formation to waves of overwhelming blaster fire.

As soon as the shield generators were hit, the Gungan army fell back, and immediately fell into a rout as the Trade Federation armor rolled up to mop up the survivors. Whatever part of the army hadn't fled was captured or killed, long before Anakin miraculously destroyed the control ship.

Considering how slow the droids moved, and how the Gungan strategy necesitates closing to "point-blank" range, a Borg "army (is there even such a thing?) would have a fun time crushing the Gungans, should that situation ever come up.

[Jaevric]

Watch TPM again.

The droids walked in essentially a phalanx formation, with the front line being the only part capable of firing without shooting a droid directly in front. Despite this rather horrid weakness, the Gungan formation could only survive for as long as the front line held the personal shields up, covering the soldiers behind as they lobbed their... whatever.

Yes, those Borg blaster volleys are going to wreak havoc...oh, wait, Borg "weapons" consist of nanite-injectors that require you to close to melee range. That's not going to work real well against people with ranged attacks, energy shields, and spears.

Cavalry charges (head on, mind you) were attempted, only to be mowed down by droidekas.

Yeah the Borg rapid-fire antipersonnel weapons should make mincemeat of a cavalry charge...oh, the Borg don't have these either.

Meanwhile, the regular battle droids closed to within hand-to-hand combat range, forcing the front Gungan line to drop their shilds, opening the formation to waves of overwhelming blaster fire.

And I believe we already discussed the fact that Borg don't *have* ranged weapons, rendering this point moot. Shields and spears may not be much good against an army with assault rifles, but they're just fine against an army that has to close...very...slowly...into bare-hands melee range.

As soon as the shield generators were hit, the Gungan army fell back, and immediately fell into a rout as the Trade Federation armor rolled up to mop up the survivors. Whatever part of the army hadn't fled was captured or killed, long before Anakin miraculously destroyed the control ship.

And exactly what weapon are the Borg going to use to start killing these shield generators?

Considering how slow the droids moved, and how the Gungan strategy necesitates closing to "point-blank" range, a Borg "army (is there even such a thing?) would have a fun time crushing the Gungans, should that situation ever come up.

The Borg aren't exactly fast on their feet either, and they lack any sort of ranged attacks. The Gungans, on the other hand, have at least some ranged ability as well as melee weapons with actual reach, and personal shields.

Let us compare the Trade Federation and the Borg for a moment.

Trade Federation:
Slow moving.
Individuals armed with powerful ranged weapons.
Some heavier, rapid-fire weapons.
Armor units available once the theater shield is dealt with.

Borg:
Slow moving.
Individual troops armed effective only at "bare-hands" melee range.
No heavy weapons.
No rapid-fire antipersonnel capability.
No vehicle support short of orbital bombardment--which won't work until the shield is down in the first place.

The Trade Federation has some very significant advantages over the Borg, and still took heavy losses against the Gungans. The only Borg "advantage" is the nanites, which requires them to close to "touch" melee range to use. This is problematic at best against a force armed with spears and shields. If the Gungans adopted a phalanx formation of their own they could effectively mow down Borg drones in melee until their arms got tired...then easily retreat.

There is, after all, no reason in the OP for the Gungans to engage the Borg in a fight to the death--which they did have to do against the Trade Federation. The Borg don't have any variation of cavalry--they aren't going to be able to chase down fleeing Gungans. Whether the Borg are smart enough to use transporters--and capable of doing so--to beam the army to a point ahead of the Gungan retreat is possible but debatable.

[CaptJodan]

Does walker armour provide any special advantages for penetrating a powerful particle/ray shield system? In addition to retarding movement, many kinds of shields in the literature and TPM scorch matter coming into contact with them.

I think it's a debatable point at the very least that organic matter may or may not have trouble getting through the Gungan shield without damage. We've never seen living matter pass through said shields, and indeed there are examples of fields in TMP where living matter could not pass through.

[haard]

The Trade Feds had power on the lower end of the SW spectrum. They won because the Gungans were no match for a private police force designed to deal with low-level resistance.

You do say that a lot, and your evidence that the TF:s forces were on level with rent-a-cop, as opposed to being made up from the same units that conducted open warfare with the Republic is... what?

[Darth Servo]

My take: either the borg get beaten by the Gungan weapons or they win the battle and end up assimilating Jar-jar into their collective personality. Either way, they're screwed.

[TC Pilot]

Jaevric:

Yes, those Borg blaster volleys are going to wreak havoc...oh, wait, Borg "weapons" consist of nanite-injectors that require you to close to melee range. That's not going to work real well against people with ranged attacks, energy shields, and spears.

Funny, I don't seem to recall saying the Borg had blasters. As a matter of fact, I don't believe I was talking about the Borg at all there.

Yeah the Borg rapid-fire antipersonnel weapons should make mincemeat of a cavalry charge...oh, the Borg don't have these either.

I say, I do believe I was talking about droidekas, not Borg.

And I believe we already discussed the fact that Borg don't *have* ranged weapons, rendering this point moot.

You're missing the fairly obvious point about the Borg (which I wasn't talking about in the excerpt you quoted, but that doesn't stop you), which I'll get to at the appropriate place.

Shields and spears may not be much good against an army with assault rifles, but they're just fine against an army that has to close...very...slowly...into bare-hands melee range.

Why? The Gungans were having trouble wrestling those battle droids, which are essentially just walking twigs. Borg can hurl fully grown humans and Klingons across a room with their bare hands.

And exactly what weapon are the Borg going to use to start killing these shield generators?

It's fairly obvious to me you miraculously took my description of the Episode I battle - which was written to correct Civil War Man's rather inaccurate assessment of how well the Gungan army resisted the droids - to be my opinion of how the Borg could (if it's even possible) defeat the same Gungan army in a pitched battle. How you made this rather tenuous leap of reasoning is... quite beyond me.

I merely stated that, should the Gungans adopt the same strategy as they did against the Trade Federation, it would necesitate closing to melee range, where the Borg have their best chance of defeating the Gungans.

[Cao Cao]

Why? The Gungans were having trouble wrestling those battle droids, which are essentially just walking twigs. Borg can hurl fully grown humans and Klingons across a room with their bare hands.

Walking twigs? They're battle droids, not barbie dolls. It doesn't matter what they look like. By that logic, Borg look like zombies with bits of metal, plastic and wiring glued randomly onto their bodies and are therefore weak.

[TC Pilot]

Walking twigs? They're battle droids, not barbie dolls. It doesn't matter what they look like. By that logic, Borg look like zombies with bits of metal, plastic and wiring glued randomly onto their bodies and are therefore weak.

Uh... no. By that logic, Borg we see throwing adult humans around like they're rag dolls can throw adult humans around like rag dolls, while crappy, mass-produced tin cans that can't hit a line of clones standing in front of them and better droids smash to pieces to get a clear shot that Greivous calls "useless" are crappy, mass-produced tin cans that can't hit a line of clones standing in front of them and better droids smash to pieces to get a clear shot that Greivous calls "useless".

[TC Pilot]

Well, I'm either blind or I can't edit.

Anyway, if "walking twigs" is so offensive, disregard it. It's not a particularly important thing to nitpick anyway.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

TC Pilot, the only time we see battle droids being pushed around are when A.) the Jedi do it, B.) they become deactivated, or C.) they are pushed around by the more powerful super battle droids. There is nothing else in the movies that indicates that these battle droids are actually very flimsy when they are operating.

[TC Pilot]

The only other thing I can think of is when R2 yanks C-3PO's head out of a battle droid's socket.

I just think battle droids aren't exactly the... how shall I put it... highest quality solider out there.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

The only other thing I can think of is when R2 yanks C-3PO's head out of a battle droid's socket.

Which probably wasn't properly attached in the first place seeing how the head of a protocol droid isn't supposed to fit on the torso of a battle droid.

I just think battle droids aren't exactly the... how shall I put it... highest quality solider out there.

No one is disputing that the battle droids make shitty soldiers in the field. Whether they are "tin cans" or not is another matter. I don't doubt that fully operational battle droids are capable of physically knocking a human being about.

[Jaevric]

Considering how slow the droids moved, and how the Gungan strategy necesitates closing to "point-blank" range, a Borg "army (is there even such a thing?) would have a fun time crushing the Gungans, should that situation ever come up.

Yes, I can see how I might miraculously assume your post was an argument in favor of the Borg being able to defeat the Gungans. Forgive me for exercising a "tenuous leap of reasoning" in doing so.

After all, there's no reason to read an analysis of a battle, followed by a claim that can be summed up with "Here's how the Gungans fight, here's how the TF droids beat them, ergo the Borg will have a fun time crushing the Gungans" as having anything to do with the Borg vs Gungans discussion.

[NecronLord]

B1s are not weak. They are able to hold their own in unarmed combat against members of the Gungan Grand Army. And stupid as they may look, Gungans appear to have considerably superior muscle power to humans. Witness Jar-Jar being able to jump a rediculous height from standing.

[TC Pilot]

Jaevric:

Yes, I can see how I might miraculously assume your post was an argument in favor of the Borg being able to defeat the Gungans. Forgive me for exercising a "tenuous leap of reasoning" in doing so.

After all, there's no reason to read an analysis of a battle, followed by a claim that can be summed up with "Here's how the Gungans fight, here's how the TF droids beat them, ergo the Borg will have a fun time crushing the Gungans" as having anything to do with the Borg vs Gungans discussion.

Tell you what, I'll skip my long, rambling post calling you a moron and leave you with the suggestion that you consider rereading my post at face value and in the context of a response to the part of Civil War Man's post I quoted, rather than with the preconception it's the justification behind a Borg > Gungans argument simply because of a single sentence at the very end of my post.

[General Brock]

Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment

Shazbot. ... Nice going Ozzel...

In any case, the Hoth theatre shield was clearly implied to be a product of galactic civilization, with capabilities clearly stated. Just one Hoth shield taken out by an ATAT protected a greater surface area than the Gungan devices carried on falumpa beasts.

You do realize that the Trade Federation did not have to redesign their entire army in order to fight the Republic, right? All they needed was to build more of their pre-existing units, plus put a new design on the table for when they need a bit more firepower. In fact, these "private police force" units you talk about are still being used on the front lines at the end of the Clone Wars. Had they been as weak as you are trying to cast them, the original battle droid design would have been phased out long before.

... The Clones rancor-romp over battle droids. This is even after TPM shortcomings like not having an autonomous brain have been corrected, Super Batttle Droids are developed, and integration into the combined Separatist military in support of more powerful automata. All significant redesigns of droid and function, the only element unchanged the placing of lowest possible cost ahead of greater functionality.

The Separatists formed one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, not the most powerful, or they wouldn't have had to expand in secret for so long. Only a Republic military large and strong enough to impose and enforce restrictions and punish violations would make this necessary.

As part of the Confederacy army, cheap battle droids were chaff with sting screening the rarer, better units. There is no need to phase out the droid unless you phase out its role.

As well, perhaps cut-rate battle droid parts had enough alternate civilian uses to make secret mass manufacturing easier and affordable, before and after the droid army ban, making cheaper battle droids more ubiquitous by default.

The Trade Federation wasn't on the lower end of the SW spectrum. Until the Clones were created, the Commerce Guilds were the largest military force in the galaxy. They were the spectrum. So like it or not, the Gungans were able to hold against a major power long enough for the control ship to be destroyed. Not only that, they were holding them off very effectively until the shield was destroyed and the Trade Federation tanks could be used.

I couldn't explain it any better than TC Pilot... and can't watch TPM again, at least until the memory of the first time fades a bit more.

The Colicoids made the droidekas, and the Trade Feds modded them down to fit their combat doctrine. It might have worked for inexpensively policing interests at a civilian level, but the Republic would be needed against galactic forces who take 'kill things and blow stuff up' seriously. The Trade Feds certainly didn't field anything approaching a first class military from a major power.

[General Brock]

The Trade Feds had power on the lower end of the SW spectrum. They won because the Gungans were no match for a private police force designed to deal with low-level resistance.

You do say that a lot, and your evidence that the TF:s forces were on level with rent-a-cop, as opposed to being made up from the same units that conducted open warfare with the Republic is... what?

The Trade Fed forces were an in-house paramilitary police force. The Feds would have been better off with rent-a-cop security. From someone who could pragmatically balance combat effectiveness with cost effectiveness, and presentations of force with practical application. The combat algorithms of the battle droid are a poor mimickry of adversarial policing.

Their use in the Clone Wars was probably an 'army you have, not army you want' problem exacerbated by clueless leadership that didn't know what to want.

Cheap Trade Fed droids were used as sentries to detect and contain opponents until the arrival of more powerful units, occupy a city like Theed on a planet defended by a smaller police-level force, and the invasion of Naboo was undertaken so as to minimize casualties and collateral damage. Police stuff, with a paramilitary edge.

Standard B-1s are effective only with overwhelming numbers. Police respond to miscreants with overwhelming force, displaying it to intimidate compliance. The Trade Fed advance on the Gungans was like riot police approaching demonstrators, not soldiers advancing on a defended position. (If their cheap blasters had a stun setting, maybe they wouldn't have suffered so many casualties to deflected blaster fire).

Standard B-1s were chaff screening better droids and were waay outfought by human soldiers. B-1s are even outmatched by military-grade Super Battle Droids, which Gungans never faced, and whose lack of residual 'protect property' police programing allowed them to shoot and swat aside B-1s in their line of fire in AOTC.

If a patrol cop isn't enough to secure compliance, SWAT units quickly move in. The Trade Feds had to buy droidekas capable of moving fast and hitting hard in a paramilitary SWAT role. The droidekas aren't of Trade Fed manufacture, and modded down to fit the inferior adversarial policing doctrine.

First class Colicoid droidekas would mow down Gungans much more efficiently, after blasting aside the B-1 chaff in their line of fire. Even dumbed down, droidekas targeted the shield generators. The battle droids continued to try and enforce compliance from individual Gunguns in melee combat.

[General Brock]

Why? The Gungans were having trouble wrestling those battle droids, which are essentially just walking twigs. Borg can hurl fully grown humans and Klingons across a room with their bare hands.

Walking twigs? They're battle droids, not barbie dolls. It doesn't matter what they look like. By that logic, Borg look like zombies with bits of metal, plastic and wiring glued randomly onto their bodies and are therefore weak.

Battle droid is just Neimodian marketing spin. By SW standards the TPM B-1s are flimsy. They are cheap ambulatory hand-blaster platforms, not anything beyond that, and designed to break into salvageable parts upon critical failure. They are not Super Battle Droids.

[Cao Cao]

Shazbot. ... Nice going Ozzel...

In any case, the Hoth theatre shield was clearly implied to be a product of galactic civilization, with capabilities clearly stated.

Implied where? Upon seeing an image of the generator, Ozzel dismisses it as a smuggler or pirate base. While Ozzel is an bumbler/rebel sympathiser he wouldn't say that if it was utterly impossible for pirates to possess a device like that.

Just one Hoth shield taken out by an ATAT protected a greater surface area than the Gungan devices carried on falumpa beasts.

Yes, a large permanent structure produces a shield with wider coverage than a small portable generator. Who'd think?

... The Clones rancor-romp over battle droids. This is even after TPM shortcomings like not having an autonomous brain have been corrected, Super Batttle Droids are developed, and integration into the combined Separatist military in support of more powerful automata. All significant redesigns of droid and function, the only element unchanged the placing of lowest possible cost ahead of greater functionality.

As a fighting force, Clonetroopers have always been superior to battle droids. That's what they were designed for! This doesn't change the fact that these exact same droids were used against the Republic, and the Republic clearly did not win every battle.
Also, the droids not being independant of their mothership doesn't affect their battle ability one bit. Their behaviour was already autonomous in TPM.

The Separatists formed one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, not the most powerful, or they wouldn't have had to expand in secret for so long. Only a Republic military large and strong enough to impose and enforce restrictions and punish violations would make this necessary.

The fact that B1 droids aren't as individually powerful as a Clonetrooper doesn't automatically relegate them to being half-assed police bots no matter how many times you yell that it does.

[Cao Cao]

Shazbot. ... Nice going Ozzel...

In any case, the Hoth theatre shield was clearly implied to be a product of galactic civilization, with capabilities clearly stated.

Implied where? Upon seeing an image of the generator, Ozzel dismisses it as a smuggler or pirate base. While Ozzel is an bumbler/rebel sympathiser he wouldn't say that if it was utterly impossible for pirates to possess a device like that.

Just one Hoth shield taken out by an ATAT protected a greater surface area than the Gungan devices carried on falumpa beasts.

Yes, a large permanent structure produces a shield with wider coverage than a small portable generator. Who'd think?

... The Clones rancor-romp over battle droids. This is even after TPM shortcomings like not having an autonomous brain have been corrected, Super Batttle Droids are developed, and integration into the combined Separatist military in support of more powerful automata. All significant redesigns of droid and function, the only element unchanged the placing of lowest possible cost ahead of greater functionality.

As a fighting force, Clonetroopers have always been superior to battle droids. That's what they were designed for! This doesn't change the fact that these exact same droids were used against the Republic, and the Republic clearly did not win every battle.
Also, the droids not being independant of their mothership doesn't affect their battle ability one bit. Their behaviour was already autonomous in TPM.

The Separatists formed one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, not the most powerful, or they wouldn't have had to expand in secret for so long. Only a Republic military large and strong enough to impose and enforce restrictions and punish violations would make this necessary.

The fact that B1 droids aren't as individually powerful as a Clonetrooper doesn't automatically relegate them to being half-assed police bots no matter how many times you yell that it does.

[Cao Cao]

Shazbot. ... Nice going Ozzel...

In any case, the Hoth theatre shield was clearly implied to be a product of galactic civilization, with capabilities clearly stated.

Implied where? Upon seeing an image of the generator, Ozzel dismisses it as a smuggler or pirate base. While Ozzel is an bumbler/rebel sympathiser he wouldn't say that if it was utterly impossible for pirates to possess a device like that.

Just one Hoth shield taken out by an ATAT protected a greater surface area than the Gungan devices carried on falumpa beasts.

Yes, a large permanent structure produces a shield with wider coverage than a small portable generator. Who'd think?

... The Clones rancor-romp over battle droids. This is even after TPM shortcomings like not having an autonomous brain have been corrected, Super Batttle Droids are developed, and integration into the combined Separatist military in support of more powerful automata. All significant redesigns of droid and function, the only element unchanged the placing of lowest possible cost ahead of greater functionality.

As a fighting force, Clonetroopers have always been superior to battle droids. That's what they were designed for! This doesn't change the fact that these exact same droids were used against the Republic, and the Republic clearly did not win every battle.
Also, the droids not being independant of their mothership doesn't affect their battle ability one bit. Their behaviour was already autonomous in TPM.

The Separatists formed one of the largest military forces in the galaxy, not the most powerful, or they wouldn't have had to expand in secret for so long. Only a Republic military large and strong enough to impose and enforce restrictions and punish violations would make this necessary.

The fact that B1 droids aren't as individually powerful as a Clonetrooper doesn't automatically relegate them to being half-assed police bots no matter how many times you yell that it does.

Battle droid is just Neimodian marketing spin.

And here's me thinking they are named thus because they are droids designed to go into battle. Silly me.

By SW standards the TPM B-1s are flimsy. They are cheap ambulatory hand-blaster platforms, not anything beyond that, and designed to break into salvageable parts upon critical failure. They are not Super Battle Droids.

You appear to be confusing flimsy with flexible. Is there any particular reason why mass-produced battle droids must be bulky?
Even though they're designed to fold up for easy storage?
Even though part of their role is to be able to fit inside TF tanks?
Speaking of which, why are you ignoring the fact that the TF had tanks, transports and light weapons platforms when all the Borg have is melee troops?

[Cao Cao]

Damn! Messed up the posting there due to a few stupid misclicks. I apologize.

[General Brock]

B1s are not weak. They are able to hold their own in unarmed combat against members of the Gungan Grand Army. And stupid as they may look, Gungans appear to have considerably superior muscle power to humans. Witness Jar-Jar being able to jump a rediculous height from standing.

An alien with what might be specialized muscles, and even lighter organic composition allowing it to jump high; they never demonstrated super strength fighting skills against humans. Jar Jar eats flying insects; fast twitch response doesn't equate physical power.