Japan's Golden Week Console Sales - HW/SW

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Re: Japan's Golden Week Console Sales - HW/SW

Post by DPDarkPrimus »

MKSheppard wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:ITT Shep learns about world economics.
I seem to recall a thread not so long ago, saying that LOL TEH X-BRICK was an utter failure because the Japanese refused to buy it; conviently forgetting about US/European/Other sales.
I don't recall that- I recall people saying it was a failure IN JAPAN, which is certainly correct.

The people who were trying to say the X-Box was a failure in general because it lost money were smacked down with the fact that MS was expecting to take a loss on it, and was merely trying to get marketshare.
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Re: Japan's Golden Week Console Sales - HW/SW

Post by Praxis »

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
The people who were trying to say the X-Box was a failure in general because it lost money were smacked down with the fact that MS was expecting to take a loss on it, and was merely trying to get marketshare.
The argument on that part is that Microsoft was expecting to take a loss on it and was trying to get marketshare, but didn't succeed in achieving more than a 16% marketshare despite taking massive losses, and they're still taking losses on the second generation.

But yeah. Nobody argued that the XBox is a failure worldwide because it failed in Japan.
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Re: Japan's Golden Week Console Sales - HW/SW

Post by Vendetta »

Praxis wrote:The argument on that part is that Microsoft was expecting to take a loss on it and was trying to get marketshare, but didn't succeed in achieving more than a 16% marketshare despite taking massive losses, and they're still taking losses on the second generation.
And yet it's still within Microsoft's expected spend for entry into the living room ($17 billion in the first 10 years).
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Re: Japan's Golden Week Console Sales - HW/SW

Post by Praxis »

Vendetta wrote:
Praxis wrote:The argument on that part is that Microsoft was expecting to take a loss on it and was trying to get marketshare, but didn't succeed in achieving more than a 16% marketshare despite taking massive losses, and they're still taking losses on the second generation.
And yet it's still within Microsoft's expected spend for entry into the living room ($17 billion in the first 10 years).
Nobody has ever been able to show me this source, I'd be really curious to see it.
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Post by Vendetta »

It's in the book Xbox 360 Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi.
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Post by Ace Pace »

Vendetta wrote:It's in the book Xbox 360 Uncloaked by Dean Takahashi.
I've read it recently, and I seem to recall a 21 billion figure, not 17. Got a chapter number so I can look it up?
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Post by Vendetta »

I'm not sure exactly where in the book it is, and I don't have a copy around to check. If I recall, it was during a discussion on the losses to date on the original Xbox and the projected for the 360 as it was launching.
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Post by Praxis »

I find it rather hard to believe. $17 billion is...there can be no way Microsoft intended to ever make that kind of money back. I mean, it's literally well over twice the worth of Apple as a company, entirely, and almost twice that of Nintendo!

If the XBox was *never* meant to make profit, what is the point of it? Just for fun?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

It will have to make a profit someday, else it's simply a losing exercise for any company. The difference with MS is the timescale for return on investment, which can be longer given their much larger piggy bank which can rapidly be liquid capital should they need it.
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Post by Vendetta »

Praxis wrote:I find it rather hard to believe. $17 billion is...there can be no way Microsoft intended to ever make that kind of money back. I mean, it's literally well over twice the worth of Apple as a company, entirely, and almost twice that of Nintendo!

If the XBox was *never* meant to make profit, what is the point of it? Just for fun?
The point of it is only partly to make a profit on direct entertainment division sales at some time in the future, and partly to have a media centre extender in the living room, since they figured that most people don't actually want a full on MCPC in the living room. That, of course, means more people buying the more expensive Vista Premium licences, or XPMCE licenses, which means money for Microsoft. (Even I've considered getting a cheap MCPC to lurk in the back room and serve video through Transcode360, and I dislike Windows intensely)

The projected timescale for that 17 billion loss is ten years, so they might be looking to make a profit from the gaming division with the third or fourth generation Xbox.
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Post by Elessar »

Knowing that Microsoft intends on blowing this kind of cash and can write it off as a mere investment... it feels eerily like the free market is failing to quash the inferior product and its parent company. Then again, my understanding of economics is poor, at best.

Is it normal for companies to plan ten years of losses to build up momentum? Or perhaps a better question is whether there are examples of another company (auto industry?) that has done the same and succeeded in breaking new ground. Something tells me GE might have done the same in the past.
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

Well, Microsoft isn't really comparable to most companies...
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Post by The Kernel »

Elessar wrote:Knowing that Microsoft intends on blowing this kind of cash and can write it off as a mere investment... it feels eerily like the free market is failing to quash the inferior product and its parent company. Then again, my understanding of economics is poor, at best.

Is it normal for companies to plan ten years of losses to build up momentum? Or perhaps a better question is whether there are examples of another company (auto industry?) that has done the same and succeeded in breaking new ground. Something tells me GE might have done the same in the past.
That's a valid question, although in Microsoft's case $17 billion, while a big investment, isn't really that big of a risk over a 10 year period in an effort to gain a foothold. This is a company that is sitting on $50 billion in cash, they can afford these sorts of expenses, especially spread over 10 years.

As for how ethical this is, I really couldn't say. Certainly you need to spend money to make money and let's keep in mind that a lot of these losses are going towards building up the appropriate infrastructure to support the Xbox (game companies for example), although $17 billion does seem like a bit much.

For Microsoft the Xbox probably isn't so much about games as new horizions. The media functionality of the X360 may not mean much to a lot of people right now, but if you look at it through a crystal ball and take some of Microsoft's statements about this in context, it's pretty clear what they intend to do with this initiative. IPTV is the name of the game, and Microsoft could make a fortune being the end-to-end provider for television content. This sort of thing scares the everliving shit out of the cable and sat providers as it could blow a huge hole in their business, but the level of advertising and licensing revenue that Microsoft could potentially see would be enormous if this is done right.

Granted, IPTV is still a new concept, relatively unproven, and could be extremely cutthroat, but at this very moment the X360 would be a heck of a platform to launch such an initiative from. You have a device which not only could be the best DVR imagineable, but interfaces with your PC (Windows of course) and allows you to intelligently manage content. It's the sort of grand project that Apple wishes they had the money to spend on (Apple TV obviously WANTS to be this but can't) and it may sound crazy, but it could be the next big thing in digital entertainment.

Of course this is highly dependent on companies like Verizon laying fiber lines (good luck getting Comcast to go along with these plans...) which is something Microsoft has very little control over, but it's pretty much inevitable that we will soon have massive fat pipes in our homes. Combined with fast networking the X360 and its successors can become more than a mere media extender, it can become the centerpiece of entertainment content in your home, all with seamless integration with Windows based PCs.

This sounds like a nutty idea, but it's really just extremely high concept stuff and the more time goes on the more I think Microsoft could realize this idea. I remember when I was still working as a journalist in this business I had a conversation with Ed Fries over at Microsoft about this (he's essentially the father of the Xbox) and his feeling was that games was only a wedge to get Microsoft into the living room, and after a few generations they'd leverage their strengths to expand into a lot of areas you wouldn't expect a game console to go.

Normally I'd say that this sort of thing is a bad idea. After all, a games console is for playing games right? People don't want a device that plays games along with doing a bunch of other things on the side, it's simply too complex for them. But the more I play with my X360's extremely well done media center functionality, the more I think Microsoft is seriously on to something here.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be a rant, but I thought it might provide some enlightenment as to why Microsoft is willing to dump all this money into a games console. I don't think they ever hope to regain the money spent on this from games sales alone, but I think Microsoft is banking on the Xbox to eventually be what the WebTV couldn't: a must have consumer electronics device that goes beyond one specific application.

Also, for those of you'd that would argue that Microsoft is not the company to do this, I'd like to point something out. Microsoft is extremely good at making things when they are faced with stiff competition. Period. It's only when they rule the roost that they tend to grow complacent.
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Post by Resinence »

Knowing that Microsoft intends on blowing this kind of cash and can write it off as a mere investment... it feels eerily like the free market is failing to quash the inferior product and its parent company. Then again, my understanding of economics is poor, at best.
Excuse me?
I like the Wii too, but the 360 most definitely is not an inferior product to either the PS3 or the Wii, it's competitively (cough, fuck you sony) priced and marketed at "gamers" and media enthusiasts, which is the market microsoft intends to grab from Sony. And the 360 stomped all over the PS3, how is that inferior?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Hooray! I can post, again!
Elessar wrote:Knowing that Microsoft intends on blowing this kind of cash and can write it off as a mere investment... it feels eerily like the free market is failing to quash the inferior product and its parent company. Then again, my understanding of economics is poor, at best.
The free market doesn't eliminate inferior products quickly, particularly when their creators are willing to hemorhage money into them.
Is it normal for companies to plan ten years of losses to build up momentum? Or perhaps a better question is whether there are examples of another company (auto industry?) that has done the same and succeeded in breaking new ground. Something tells me GE might have done the same in the past.
I've never heard of such a strategy before. Clearly, when a company is starting off, it needs to spend money before it's making money. I've never heard of a company willing to lose this much money for this long, incurring all sorts of present-value calculation problems, on the creation of a product. I guess the most analogous strategy that comes to mind off the top of my head was the dot-com situation, in which numerous companies assumed they could turn profits but, instead, chose to expand. Everyone knows that most of these companies folded when stock prices became ludicrously over-priced and then collapsed, but one can argue that this was not the necessary result of their business model and that in absence of investor over-optimism it would have been effective. You do have to look at the magnitude of the returns that are being lost, though, since with investments this massive there are enormous present-value issues with taking losses for ten years.
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Post by Vendetta »

Master of Ossus wrote: I've never heard of such a strategy before. Clearly, when a company is starting off, it needs to spend money before it's making money. I've never heard of a company willing to lose this much money for this long, incurring all sorts of present-value calculation problems, on the creation of a product.
It's a fairly common strategy called a Loss Leader, but played on a fairly epic scale.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Vendetta wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: I've never heard of such a strategy before. Clearly, when a company is starting off, it needs to spend money before it's making money. I've never heard of a company willing to lose this much money for this long, incurring all sorts of present-value calculation problems, on the creation of a product.
It's a fairly common strategy called a Loss Leader, but played on a fairly epic scale.
Usually "Loss Leader" is done when you're trying to introduce a new product, which was arguably the case with the original X-Box. Usually, though, you expect to turn a profit with the original product, eventually, and not 10 years down the road with a new product that was the successor to the first.
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Post by Mad »

Master of Ossus wrote:Usually "Loss Leader" is done when you're trying to introduce a new product, which was arguably the case with the original X-Box. Usually, though, you expect to turn a profit with the original product, eventually, and not 10 years down the road with a new product that was the successor to the first.
Of course, there's no reason to exclusively use the phrase that way.

I've seen the phrase "loss leader" used for cheaper gasoline used to attract more customers to a particular location, so that may buy other items. That basically appears to be what Microsoft intends to do, based on The Kernel's post. The only difference is that Microsoft's strategy is much longer-term than one is used to seeing
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

Canadian April NPDs are out, with Wii > DS

Wii 42.1k
DS 34.9k
PS2 18k
360 12.8k
PSP 12.1k
GBA 7.9k
PS3 7.2k


U.S. numbers in 45 minutes or so. Who's stoked?
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Post by Archaic` »

Mad wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:Usually "Loss Leader" is done when you're trying to introduce a new product, which was arguably the case with the original X-Box. Usually, though, you expect to turn a profit with the original product, eventually, and not 10 years down the road with a new product that was the successor to the first.
Of course, there's no reason to exclusively use the phrase that way.

I've seen the phrase "loss leader" used for cheaper gasoline used to attract more customers to a particular location, so that may buy other items. That basically appears to be what Microsoft intends to do, based on The Kernel's post. The only difference is that Microsoft's strategy is much longer-term than one is used to seeing
Rather than a loss leader, it's more like a razor and razor blades business model, also known as a bait and hook, or multi-tier model. Price your razor (console) at a loss to encourage sales. Once people are locked in, and you have a large base of users with your model, make up losses from the profits on the sale of your razor blades (1st/2nd party software), and those from companies which your license the technology to (3rd party software), all of which can only be used with your model of razor.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Archaic` wrote:Rather than a loss leader, it's more like a razor and razor blades business model, also known as a bait and hook, or multi-tier model. Price your razor (console) at a loss to encourage sales. Once people are locked in, and you have a large base of users with your model, make up losses from the profits on the sale of your razor blades (1st/2nd party software), and those from companies which your license the technology to (3rd party software), all of which can only be used with your model of razor.
The claim is, though, that Microsoft isn't even expecting a profit on those and was instead expecting to consistently lose billions for a decade before ever turning a profit. An extremely dubious business model, IMO, given the magnitude of the losses involved.
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

I wonder if this isn't just a case of MS saying "I meant to do that!" after the fact. It's hard to imagine a future MS console doing so well that it not only puts the console games division in the black, but gives an all time Return-on-Investment comparable to the company's other divisions taking the billions of losses for years into account.
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

lol@Sony

JPN for the week:

DSL 163,785
Wii 52,544
PSP 34,433
PS2 10,414
PS3 8,839
Xbox360 2,105
GBM 408
GBASP 343
GC 315
DS 39
GBA 18

America last month:

NDS 471K
Wii 360K
PS2 194K
PSP 183K
X360 174K
GBA 84K
PS3 82K
GCN 13K
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Post by NeoGoomba »

Ouch, getting beaten by the Game Boy Advance has to hurt.
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Post by Ace Pace »

I'm suprised at the PSP resurgence.
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