Some Episode II Questions

[JGregory32]

Got to thinking about the end battle of Episode II today and started asking questions.

Who was piloting the ships???

Assuming it was clone troopers then there had to be a speical subset of Naval clone commanders, which argues for far higher numbers of clones then was previously thought. Somehow I don't think you could take a average clone trooper and crosstrain them as both a foot soldier and as a naval commander. The training for naval command would just take up too much time.

Looking back on the "million units" comment it dawns on me that they might be including naval 'units' as well as 'artillary' units, fighter 'units' as well a foot soldier 'units'. Each would have different number of actual clones in it, making the word 'unit' usless for actually computing size.

The second main question that occured to me was:

How the hell did they pay for all this?

Foot soldiers, equipment, vehicles, ships, fighters, munitions, training, and storage until needed. All of that would cost a pretty penny and no one would be willing to pay or accept the cost up front. Not to mention the possible cost overruns. This means that there had to be a series of payments made over the years, where did this money come from and how was it transferred? If the money came from Palpatine where did he get it, and how did he hide the transactions?

Any ideas? Answers?

[TC Pilot]

Who paid for it? Palpatine and Dooku through Sifo-Dyas if up front. The Republic if not.

which argues for far higher numbers of clones then was previously thought.

Not here. Trust me.

[Enforcer Talen]

They paid for the death star on the quiet. Regiments of troops cost less.

[TC Pilot]

Comparing the military expenditure of the Galactic Empire to that of a state that hasn't needed a military for a millenia in the midst of a situation where even the banks have declared war on the state is entirely different, even if the difference is several orders of magnitude.

[JGregory32]

Another point to bring up is the ships themselves. Unless they are/were a standard ship class they would have had to be designed/tested/debuged and then built in suficcent numbers. Not a easy thing to keep quiet or fund under the table. Whats more those ships would then have to be delivered to Kanimo(sp?) for the clone troops to learn from and use.

The whole thing seems like it should have fallen apart a thousand times before the events of episode two.

There is another angle however. How was Palpatine going to "discover" this mass of men and equipment? I can't believe that he was trusting in some Jedi just stumbling onto the secret. He must have had a plan.

Granted looking back on events it does seem like he orcastrated the whole sequence so that Obiwan would find the bloody place, but to put that much trust in fate just seems stupid.

[JGregory32]

Just found this on wookiepedia:
http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... rs-ST2.jpg
Going by this I count 18 Acclamator starships.
Going by the stats listed under the Acclamator heading this represents a troop transport capacity of roughly 288,000 soldiers.
In material terms it displays a capacity of roughly
5,760 74-Z speeder bikes
1,440 LAAT gunships
864 AT-TE walkers
648 SPHA walkers
2,808 V-19 Torrent starfighters
All this in a what must have been one of several landing fields.
In addition these ships had a total crew compliment of
12,600 Sailors
These numbers are simply massive, I think they demonstrate that keeping the whole thing on the QT must have been massily difficult if not impossible.

The article on Rothana Heavy Engineering (found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rothana_ ... ngineering) mentions that they recived a subcontract to build these war machines, while the amount of subcontracting they themselves would have done is unknown, people would have noticed this massive amount of war material being produced. At the very least the stockholders not to mention the suppliers would have noticed the amount of work being done.

Or is this amount of materal considered small by SW standards?
It certainly seems like a decent sized force and probably there were a few people wondering where this force was going to show up at.

And remeber this was just 18 Acclamator ships. Supposidly the Republic ordered a thousand more!

[Ritterin Sophia]

We already fucking know! If you think we aren't aware of how rediculously stupid Karen Travissties 'Noble Three Million' is, then you'll also be happy to learn that the Soviet's KIA during WWII outnumber the Clonetroopers by 7.7 million, that's one country on one fucking planet. Apparently Grievous must be a fucking moron because he said he had quintillions of droids, with those numbers it's impossible for the Clones to win with only three million, so clearly Grievous is a retard!

God Damnit that cunt pisses me off!

And it's Star Wars fan such as yourself who can't remember dialogue from the first God Damned movie made that piss me off as well, do you remember Tarkins diaologue of millions of systems? Yeah those are fucking Solar Systems, with multiple planets sometimes all of them inhabitable.

[Stark]

These numbers are simply massive, I think they demonstrate that keeping the whole thing on the QT must have been massily difficult if not impossible.

Your lack of appreciation of a galactic-level society disturbs me.

[Ritterin Sophia]

That's rediculous, Luke merely takes a Dark Side Point and removes it later after he heroicly saves everyone, heroic acts recieve 1-3 Force Points upon completion, and you can remove them by sacrificing Force Points.

You terrify me.

Stark, do you remember this? Now which one bothers you more, it kinda feels like you're cheating on me...

[Chris OFarrell]

Got to thinking about the end battle of Episode II today and started asking questions.

Asking questions is good. Asking stupid ones is less so.

Do you have any idea what kind of a drop in the ocean a few million troops is for a society of MILLIONS of planets? Each probably with an averaged population in the billions? Dito the resources for ships and so on, for a society that has had a Galactic scale Government for thousands of years with God only knows how many ships and the shipyards and so on to build them?

[Aaron2]

Dito the resources for ships and so on, for a society that has had a Galactic scale Government for thousands of years with God only knows how many ships and the shipyards and so on to build them?

I don't think I'd call the Republic a Government per se. It seems more along the lines of the U.N. dealing mostly with inter-sector stuff. Each individual planet and sector had its own type of local government as well as its own military and its own way of selecting a Senators.

That being said, no doubt Palpatine and others were receiving large kick backs from the Trade Fed et. al. for their respective monopolies. This money could have been transfered to Kamino or wherever.

There really isn't much need for the clones to have the actual starship since they could be trained on simulators. The Acclamators built could easily have been assigned to some private army somewhere without drawing any suspicion. A 200,000 troop army would be dwarfed by what was a "trivial" privately owned Trade Fed fleet in TPM.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I don't think I'd call the Republic a Government per se. It seems more along the lines of the U.N. dealing mostly with inter-sector stuff. Each individual planet and sector had its own type of local government as well as its own military and its own way of selecting a Senators.

Allow me to be the first to say, shut the fuck up, moron. You will please show where the UN has fleets that it can say belongs to it? You will please show where the UN can just shut down the telecommunications of a country if it doesn't want to be part of the UN?

There really isn't much need for the clones to have the actual starship since they could be trained on simulators. The Acclamators built could easily have been assigned to some private army somewhere without drawing any suspicion. A 200,000 troop army would be dwarfed by what was a "trivial" privately owned Trade Fed fleet in TPM.

"Trivial"? Where was it said to be trivial? The CIS was seen as and shown to be a significant threat to the Republic, if they were trivial they could've put it down within the year.

[Tychu]

Dito the resources for ships and so on, for a society that has had a Galactic scale Government for thousands of years with God only knows how many ships and the shipyards and so on to build them?

I don't think I'd call the Republic a Government per se. It seems more along the lines of the U.N. dealing mostly with inter-sector stuff. Each individual planet and sector had its own type of local government as well as its own military and its own way of selecting a Senators.

That being said, no doubt Palpatine and others were receiving large kick backs from the Trade Fed et. al. for their respective monopolies. This money could have been transfered to Kamino or wherever.

There really isn't much need for the clones to have the actual starship since they could be trained on simulators. The Acclamators built could easily have been assigned to some private army somewhere without drawing any suspicion. A 200,000 troop army would be dwarfed by what was a "trivial" privately owned Trade Fed fleet in TPM.

To give you a nicer response, unlike the General here, all a group needs to do to be a government is provide a currency and law codes that will be used and followed in a society. The UN dosent have a form of currency and the "laws" it inacts aren't followed by most of its members. (Looking at Allthe Security Council members. It has also been argued on this board that the Old Republic is a bit like a Confederacy in the vein of the United States under the Articles of Confederation. Then Palps came along and changed everything

[JGregory32]

It's all well and good to think in the macro scale but you also need to think in the micro as well.

For example take the planet of Kamino. The contract for the clone army plus mutions must have represented a signifficant dollar amount. No one in their right mind is going to allow that much money to be dumped into their planetary economy in one go. Which means there must have been regular payments made as targets were met.

Rothana Heavy Engineering got the supcontract for the equipment, possibly floated by the Kaminoians but the same principal of economics applies. Not to mention that the ship designers probably had to have detailed discussions with the contracter about design goals and requirements.

This ignores that the 'Army' was supposed to be ordered by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. What the hell does a Jedi master want with an Army of this size? Did no one think to question that? And where were the Kaminoains supposed to send the regular status reports? They couldn't go to the Jedi Council and Palpatine would have been too busy with manipulating the Senate, The Trade Federation, Training Count Doku, and messing with the Jedi. I know the man is a Sith Lord but come on, there are only so many hours in a day and he has a lot of very delicate things to balance.

[Aaron2]

A 200,000 troop army would be dwarfed by what was a "trivial" privately owned Trade Fed fleet in TPM.

"Trivial"? Where was it said to be trivial? The CIS was seen as and shown to be a significant threat to the Republic, if they were trivial they could've put it down within the year.

I never mentioned the CIS, I'm specifically discussing the Trade Fed fleet used to blockade Naboo in EP1. A privately owned fleet whose size didn't astonish Qui-Gon in the slightest.

To give you a nicer response, unlike the General here, all a group needs to do to be a government is provide a currency and law codes that will be used and followed in a society. The UN dosent have a form of currency and the "laws" it inacts aren't followed by most of its members. (Looking at Allthe Security Council members.

I should have used the European Union in my example. It is a closer fit. The Republics presence on individual planets is so small that in TPM they need to sent people to Naboo just to see if it has been invaded.

My point was that at the time of AotC, the Republic has no army so there isn't a military budget of significant size that can easily hide the clone armies construction. Plus Cloak of Deception shows that Palpatine was receiving bribes and distributing them among other senators, a small cut of which can find its way to Kamino without much effort.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I never mentioned the CIS, I'm specifically discussing the Trade Fed fleet used to blockade Naboo in EP1. A privately owned fleet whose size didn't astonish Qui-Gon in the slightest.

Not astonished does not mean trivial.

I should have used the European Union in my example. It is a closer fit. The Republics presence on individual planets is so small that in TPM they need to sent people to Naboo just to see if it has been invaded.

Why would a planet of pacifists want a Republic Navy Base on their planet?

My point was that at the time of AotC, the Republic has no army so there isn't a military budget of significant size that can easily hide the clone armies construction. Plus Cloak of Deception shows that Palpatine was receiving bribes and distributing them among other senators, a small cut of which can find its way to Kamino without much effort.

There was a Navy, however. You know, the people transporting Qui-Gon and Kenobi, as well as the Katana Fleet?

[Aaron2]

For example take the planet of Kamino. The contract for the clone army plus mutions must have represented a signifficant dollar amount. No one in their right mind is going to allow that much money to be dumped into their planetary economy in one go. Which means there must have been regular payments made as targets were met.

I'm curious why you think this. Its not like Sifo Dyas just walked around handing out moola. Cloning is what the Kaminoians (sp) do, they are certainly prepared to handle their own finances. They've done it before. From the dialog in AotC, I doubt there was any comminication between the Kaminoians and either the Jedi or Sidious. They must have been starting to get a bit worried considering how easily they spilled their guts to Obi-Wan who was obviously totally clueless. As long as the money kept coming, there's no reason to rock the boat.

As to the Acclamators et. al. These vehicles were neither exceptionally large nor particularly exotic. There's no reason to believe that a "Heavy Engineering" company couldn't produce them from a set of basic specs.

Go to Wal-Mart and buy 150 pairs of green socks. They may look at you funny but the are going to take your money.

[JGregory32]

Go to Wal-Mart and buy 150 pairs of green socks. They may look at you funny but the are going to take your money.

Sure they'll let me buy them, they have them in stock and on the store shelves.

Try walking into a car dealership and place an order for 150 Fully loaded Hummers. Suddly there is all sorts of problems, but the management is willing to do it provided that you can prove that you have that much money and are willing to accept them over a period of time.

But that's all civilian model stuff. Try walking into a gun store and ordering 150 rifles or handguns. Your going to get a very quick call from the Feds, wondering what you might be wanting all this for.

Goverments are afraid of people with guns, their terrified of people building private armies.

[Coriolis]

This ignores that the 'Army' was supposed to be ordered by Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. What the hell does a Jedi master want with an Army of this size? Did no one think to question that? And where were the Kaminoains supposed to send the regular status reports? They couldn't go to the Jedi Council and Palpatine would have been too busy with manipulating the Senate, The Trade Federation, Training Count Doku, and messing with the Jedi. I know the man is a Sith Lord but come on, there are only so many hours in a day and he has a lot of very delicate things to balance.

If you'll remember, Sifo-Dyas ordered the army in the name of the Republic. The Kaminoans themselves thought it was for the Republic. Also, Palpatine probably did receive status reports, via Dooku (he was involved with the cloners too). Palpatine had to know when the army was ready to put his plan for galactic domination into play.

Manipulating the senate takes minimal effort, given that he's been doing it for years. Palpatine did have a hand in controlling the Trade Federation, but was rather laissez faire about it. Dooku was already trained as a Jedi, and all Palpatine did was to introduce him to Sith 101. Messing with Jedi is easy. All you do is do the aforementioned things, and voila.

[The Dark]

The only interesting thing I'll note is that the number of Acclamators counted actually exceeds the number stated to have taken part in the battle in Complete Locations (although these are numbers provided by HoloNet News Sources). According to HNNS, there were 12 Acclamators, 100 SPHA-T, 2160 AT-TE, 400 LAAT/c AT-TE carriers, 1600 LAAT/i gunships, and 192,000 clonetroopers. Assuming the number of Acclamators is off by 50%, it would seem reasonable to assume the other numbers are as well, giving us 150 SPHA-T, 3240 AT-TE, 600 LAAT/c, 2400 LAAT/i, and 288,000 clones.

Indeed, the numbers provided in CLmust be wrong, because it's mentioned that there are 8 corps of clonetroopers, with 36,864 troops per corps (or just under 295,000 clones).

[Darth Fanboy]

But that's all civilian model stuff. Try walking into a gun store and ordering 150 rifles or handguns. Your going to get a very quick call from the Feds, wondering what you might be wanting all this for.

Goverments are afraid of people with guns, their terrified of people building private armies.

I wouldn't exactly put Sifo Dyas on the same level as "civilian" considering his Jedi Status.

[Knife]

Go to Wal-Mart and buy 150 pairs of green socks. They may look at you funny but the are going to take your money.

Sure they'll let me buy them, they have them in stock and on the store shelves.

Try walking into a car dealership and place an order for 150 Fully loaded Hummers. Suddly there is all sorts of problems, but the management is willing to do it provided that you can prove that you have that much money and are willing to accept them over a period of time.

But that's all civilian model stuff. Try walking into a gun store and ordering 150 rifles or handguns. Your going to get a very quick call from the Feds, wondering what you might be wanting all this for.

Goverments are afraid of people with guns, their terrified of people building private armies.

Your scale is off. That's the disconnect you are having. Try the USN or even a contractor working within the scope of the USN, going to GE and asking for them to build a hundred new CRRC's or Boston Whaler type patrol boats.

The funding is a drop in the bucket, the boats are small and really not worth noting in any way, and the scope of their mission isn't dramatic in any way. End result, nobody noticed or cared if they did.

[Enforcer Talen]

The equivalent would be hiring some rentacops. It wouldnt even register.

[(name here)]

The hard part would be fooling the shareholders or auditors. It may not be much, but in an environment where Kuat Shipyards would be competing with Geonosis, Fondor, Duro, Baktoid, Corellia, the Techno Union, and many others, the shareholders would notice the price tag of either starting Rothana Heavy Engineering or creating it for a legal remove and then funding it. If Kuat didn't mention it in the finance report auditors would notice. Of course, if Kuat shipyards is not publicly traded the point is moot.

[Stark]

Stark, do you remember this? Now which one bothers you more, it kinda feels like you're cheating on me...

Oh don't be that way baby, your knowledge of RP game mechanics that devalue roleplaying STILL bothers me.

Why people are even bothering to have this discussion when SW is full of huge resource-intensive projects conducted on the sly is beyond me.

The whole 'zomg buying a few million clones would destroy the Kaminoan economy' is just retarded. I hear you know all the details of the deal and how the corporation involved handles it's money lol?

Complaining about regulation or whatever is totally missing the point of the prequels. The Republic was already so corrupt, weak and disorganised that a shipping company in the boonies had thousands of 2km 'transports' and a massive private army.