Do No Harm - Main Tenet of Ethics or Complete Bullshit?

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Do No Harm - Main Tenet of Ethics or Complete Bullshit?

Post by Lord MJ »

I was having a debate on the "Do No Harm" principle of ethics. We were referring to behavior in conflict situations. I tried to argue the "Do No Harm" principle really governs how one handles oneself in any conflict. He disagreed vehemently. I have attached his arguments below. I would like some feedback from the board on whether these arguments are valid. I admit that I am really looking for validation of my point of view, but being honest if my opinion is wrong I would like to know.
An act is only wrong is the harm done is intended, if the actors actions motivation for example was a reaction to something that aggravated the actor then the fact that the actors action caused harm is irrelevant since the motive was not to cause harm, it was to react to an aggravation.
Commonly accepted behaviors may cause harm in certain situations, you can't say in those situations that the harm makes the behavior unethical because the action is generally accepted as being okay.
Whatever harm that is a result of my actions to others is not my responsibility its the responsibility of the person harmed if the my actions are perfectly legitimate. I should have to refrain from an action just because harm will result to the other.
Just because an action doesn't cause me harm doesn't make it not wrong nor does it preclude me from doing something that causes harm in response.
If I feel it is in my own interest to do something than what harm is caused to another is irrelevant because I have no obligation to put other peoples interests ahead of my own.
Whether an action causes harm or not is irrelevant. What determines if it is right or wrong is commonly accepted ethics.
Anyone that is eccentric, has bad interpersonal skills, bad communication skills or falls outside the norm are fair game for actions that cause harm to them since those fall outside commonly accepted norms. Furthermore the above groups really have to place expressing their opinions about ethics since they themselves are unethical by their nature.
There are proper behaviors in any given situation, one not only consider the past and present in determining if an action is ethical. What harm may come in the future is irrelevant and ultimately not my responsibility. (Another variation of this was only the inputs into an action determine whether it is right or wrong, not the output. The actor is not responsible for the output.)
In addition to these this person tried to argue that someone that speaks in a boring monotone, is hard to hear, stutters, or is otherwise painful to talk to is engaging in wrongdoing because its aggravating to people he's talking to, and people are justified in responding accordingly (eg If there was a team of people in a project, and the person in question was the lead, then the rest of the people are perfectly justified in not cooperating, being irresponsible, or telling the lead to go fuck himself)

Also argued that if in a heated conflict in a project or business, a partner feels insulted or "rubbed the wrong way" by his partner or doesn't like something for any reason. He is perfectly justified in telling his partner to go fuck himself and abandon the partner regardless of what harm would be done to the partner (or the project) as a result.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Does he actually explain why a society should adopt his recommended values, as opposed to simply stating them as fact?

A society with an ethical system based around objective harm will probably experience less objective harm done to its citizens. A society with his ethical system will probably experience more ethical harm done to its citizens, because in practice all it does is create a vast array of excuses for causing harm.

I found it fascinating that he felt that the intent to "react to an aggravation" could get someone off the hook, even if that reaction is harmful. That is still intent to cause harm, isn't it? This is like saying that if I murder a guy for vandalizing my car, I didn't really intend to murder him; I just wanted to react to the vandalization of my car.
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Post by Covenant »

His ethical system is as broken as could be. Those quotes you posted are pretty telling of a complete lack of an honest intellectual process, and really he's not at all interested in what is or is not harmful since he's not going to take into account causation. If my action isn't overtly harmful, but will indeed kill a lot of people down the line, since I don't actually know who and what will indeed possibly be harmed. This is just inane logic. And his "Nobody Matters more than ME" type of thought is getting pretty close to the "everything is subjective" type of thought.

So, really, not only is a "Do No Harm" method of ethics not really the only way to test the 'good' done, but his methodology is backwards and encourages maximum harm done to anyone who does not conform to a very strict criteria. It's crazy Neo-Facism.
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Post by Lord MJ »

Darth Wong wrote:Does he actually explain why a society should adopt his recommended values, as opposed to simply stating them as fact?
He doesn't really feel that he has to demonstrate that what he's saying is correct because this is not a court of law and there is not a burden of proof he has to satisfy, and he pretty much feels that his values are commonly accepted.
A society with an ethical system based around objective harm will probably experience less objective harm done to its citizens. A society with his ethical system will probably experience more ethical harm done to its citizens, because in practice all it does is create a vast array of excuses for causing harm.
He wouldn't really see a problem with that because he wouldn't see the fact that a harm was caused as wrong.
I found it fascinating that he felt that the intent to "react to an aggravation" could get someone off the hook, even if that reaction is harmful. That is still intent to cause harm, isn't it? This is like saying that if I murder a guy for vandalizing my car, I didn't really intend to murder him; I just wanted to react to the vandalization of my car.
He would probably say that you wouldn't be justified for murdering a guy for vandalizing your car because commonly accepted values say that is wrong. But going from the opening post, say he found someone painful to talk to (monotone, stuttering, etc), then he would be justified in being uncooperative or hostile or telling the guy to go fuck himself, the intent was not to cause harm, he just wanted to react to something that irritated him.
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Post by Lord MJ »

Would also like feedback on this opinion of mine:
If you see a conflict between Person A and Person B. Look at the total harm done. If you can see that Person A has caused little or no harm to Person B, while Person B has caused significant harm to Person A, then Person B is most likely engaging in wrongdoing. Whether Person A is wrong or not can not be determined right off the bat, but Person B's actions are wrong regardless.
He would disagree with this logic in that you can't use harm as a measure to determine right and wrong.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sounds like his entire ethical system is nothing more than mindless social conformism with a flimsy veneer of pseudo-logic painted on top. He really has no grasp of how to determine whether something is ethical or not, other than simply appealing to popular opinion. Ask him to describe his litmus test for determining that some particular act is unethical.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

If I feel it is in my own interest to do something than what harm is caused to another is irrelevant because I have no obligation to put other peoples interests ahead of my own.
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Post by Lord MJ »

Darth Wong wrote:Sounds like his entire ethical system is nothing more than mindless social conformism with a flimsy veneer of pseudo-logic painted on top. He really has no grasp of how to determine whether something is ethical or not, other than simply appealing to popular opinion. Ask him to describe his litmus test for determining that some particular act is unethical.
Well he has a degree in sociology and study of human behavior, and that really reinforces his view of right and wrong. "You can't really consider an action wrong because of the harm it does because based on my knowledge of human behavior that is how people in general will behave."

The scenario I posted a couple messages up, he would say isn't clear cut. You can consider that Person B has done wrong because of the harm he did. What if Person A upset Person B in some way? is a question he would ask.

Finally there is the appeal to good people skills in that someone with good people skills is more qualified to determine what is ethical or not. While someone with poor people skills can not since he isn't skilled in human interaction and does not understand people which and thus unqualified to determine whether a person's behavior is ethical or not.
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Re: Do No Harm - Main Tenet of Ethics or Complete Bullshit?

Post by phred »

Lord MJ wrote:In addition to these this person tried to argue that someone that speaks in a boring monotone, is hard to hear, stutters, or is otherwise painful to talk to is engaging in wrongdoing because its aggravating to people he's talking to, and people are justified in responding accordingly (eg If there was a team of people in a project, and the person in question was the lead, then the rest of the people are perfectly justified in not cooperating, being irresponsible, or telling the lead to go fuck himself)
so people who stutter (a psycological condition) or speak softly (I often find myself repeating things because Im naturally quiet ) are evil and should be ignored regardless of the the content of their message?
Would also like feedback on this opinion of mine:

If you see a conflict between Person A and Person B. Look at the total harm done. If you can see that Person A has caused little or no harm to Person B, while Person B has caused significant harm to Person A, then Person B is most likely engaging in wrongdoing. Whether Person A is wrong or not can not be determined right off the bat, but Person B's actions are wrong regardless.
He would disagree with this logic in that you can't use harm as a measure to determine right and wrong.
And why not? By his reasoning you are well within your rights to hit him in the face with a ball peen hammer, because he is being a moron, and you are responding to his actions
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Re: Do No Harm - Main Tenet of Ethics or Complete Bullshit?

Post by Lord MJ »

phred wrote:
so people who stutter (a psycological condition) or speak softly (I often find myself repeating things because Im naturally quiet ) are evil and should be ignored regardless of the the content of their message?
People will treat those people the same way people would generally treat someone they found to be aggravating, irritating, or annoying. Under his ethics.

And why not? By his reasoning you are well within your rights to hit him in the face with a ball peen hammer, because he is being a moron, and you are responding to his actions
Hitting him in the face would violate generally accepted social standards. If you told him he was a moron and an idiot he would be justified in retaliating (ie if he was your friend, business partner, or accquaintance he would be justified in ending the relationship, telling you to go fuck yourself, and ex-communicating you) regardless if what harm it may cause you, because you have insulted and offended him by calling him a moron and an idiot. Most people would behave the same way. Under his view of ethics.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

There's something fun about that ethical system. If you visit the HoS you'll see it in action...

"The way that guy looks aggrivates me...*mace*...lol, it's funny and ethical cos he aggrivated me!"
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Post by Starglider »

Lord MJ wrote:Well he has a degree in sociology and study of human behavior, and that really reinforces his view of right and wrong.
Hah. Tabula rasa 'socially constructed values' bullshit is standard for sociology. Don't worry, the glorious forces of the People's Evolutionary Psychology Revolution will soon have them up against the wall, where they will be executed (or even worse, stripped of tenure) by our crack Bayesian Execution Squads.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Starglider wrote: Hah. Tabula rasa 'socially constructed values' bullshit is standard for sociology. Don't worry, the glorious forces of the People's Evolutionary Psychology Revolution will soon have them up against the wall, where they will be executed (or even worse, stripped of tenure) by our crack Bayesian Execution Squads.
While you're doing that, can we have most of psychology rewritten too? I want anything not substantiated by evolutionary theory, actual studies or neurology to be struck off the list, trim the fat as it were.
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Post by Lord MJ »

This person also argued that the whole idea of actions being wrong based on the harm done would alienate a lot of people. The majority of people would find that offensive.

It goes against the whole concept of individual freedom, in that people have the right to respond to things any way they choose regardless of what harm may be done as long as the response itself is within commonly accepted norms.
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Post by Darth Wong »

You might want to point out to this clown that individualism as an ethical ideal is a fairly new idea, spawned from the corpulent luxury of a self-indulgent generation and retrofitted onto the history of thriving western nations by historical revisionists with stars in their eyes and shit for brains.

In the past, at some point. every society had to emphasize collective ideals, because that was the only thing that kept them alive. It is nothing more than historically ignorant self-indulgent navel-gazing that has led anyone in the modern western world to think otherwise. The roots of all morality are literally grounded in a collectivist ideal.

That's not to say I oppose individualism, but rather, that I think it should coexist with collectivism in a balance. Far too many modern western navel-gazers think that individualism somehow defeated collectivism as a moral principle, and that collectivism has been thrown onto the dustheap of history.

PS. Just for an exercise, try examining the mythology of "rugged American frontier individualism" with a critical eye, by looking at the actual historical lifestyles of pioneer villages and how everyone had to work together in order to survive. The fact that isolated communities often thought little of the federal government has been distorted into "rugged individualism" when in fact they were more like small collectives (and rather rigidly conformist ones at that).
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:In the past, at some point. every society had to emphasize collective ideals, because that was the only thing that kept them alive.
True. The history of humanity is mostly tribe against tribe, with a fair amount of (extended) family against family behind that. It's important not to take this too far though. Evolution is inherently selfish (group selection effects are rare) and the vast majority of species don't engage in collectivist behaviour. Humans have evolved instincts for fair play, altruism, tribal identity/conformism etc, but humans can and do revert to pure selfishness under the right circumstances. That said right now the mistake of believing humans to be inherently selfish (to Randian extremes) seems much more common than the opposite mistake of overemphasising our social/group instincts. Collectivists generally make the tabula rasa 'instincts are irrelevant, everything is socially constructed, and hence we can socially construct communism that actually works' mistake instead.
That's not to say I oppose individualism, but rather, that I think it should coexist with collectivism in a balance. Far too many modern western navel-gazers think that individualism somehow defeated collectivism as a moral principle, and that collectivism has been thrown onto the dustheap of history.
Agree, for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Lord MJ »

Would like some thoughts on the whole notion that someone that has bad interpersonal skills, is painful to talk to due to soft voice, stuttering, rambling, or otherwise communicates differently than the average person justifies other people harming him.

His argument of course is that people are alienated by that and thus are justified in responding to the alienation.

That has been a central argument in our conversation.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lord MJ wrote:Would like some thoughts on the whole notion that someone that has bad interpersonal skills, is painful to talk to due to soft voice, stuttering, rambling, or otherwise communicates differently than the average person justifies other people harming him.

His argument of course is that people are alienated by that and thus are justified in responding to the alienation.

That has been a central argument in our conversation.
I'm alienated by him. Does that mean I have the right to clock him over the fucking head with a baseball bat?
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Post by Starglider »

Lord MJ wrote:Would like some thoughts on the whole notion that someone that has bad interpersonal skills, is painful to talk to due to soft voice, stuttering, rambling, or otherwise communicates differently than the average person justifies other people harming him.

His argument of course is that people are alienated by that and thus are justified in responding to the alienation.
He seems to have confused 'understandable' with 'justified'. Seriously, this is a brain-damaged (almost literally) argument and it's probably not worth trying to snap him out of it. I suppose you could ask whether he personally wants to live in a world where nonconformists are regularly attacked, or whether he is simply failing to assign blame to such attacks. The later is somewhat less insane than the former.
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Post by phred »

am i just reading this wrong?
Lord MJ wrote:Would like some thoughts on the whole notion that someone that has bad interpersonal skills, is painful to talk to due to soft voice, stuttering, rambling, or otherwise communicates differently than the average person justifies other people harming him.
so the waitress is justified in spitting on my burger because I have a soft voice
His argument of course is that people are alienated by that and thus are justified in responding to the alienation.


but i am justified in beating on the waitress with a ball peen hammer for asking me to speak up? (get a hearing aid bitch!)

either way, the conclusion seems wrong.
If the person communicates differently than the average person due to physical or psycological reasons(stuttering, soft voice, rambling, what about thick accents?) do they deserve to be screwed over for it? Its not as if they are actively trying to be annoying
Alternatively do they get to say GFY to anyone that doesnt have the patience to listen to them?
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Post by PeZook »

Lord MJ wrote:Would like some thoughts on the whole notion that someone that has bad interpersonal skills, is painful to talk to due to soft voice, stuttering, rambling, or otherwise communicates differently than the average person justifies other people harming him.

His argument of course is that people are alienated by that and thus are justified in responding to the alienation.

That has been a central argument in our conversation.
Let's just say that if he was working for a company and told his project leader to fuck off because it required effort to understand him, he'd be out on the street by the end of the day. It's not a widely accepted social norm to act like an asshole. As somebody else said, he confuses "understandable" with "justified". People will be irritated by a stuttering project leader, but it doesn't make it okay to take off on him.
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Post by Lord MJ »

Starglider wrote:
He seems to have confused 'understandable' with 'justified'. Seriously, this is a brain-damaged (almost literally) argument and it's probably not worth trying to snap him out of it. I suppose you could ask whether he personally wants to live in a world where nonconformists are regularly attacked, or whether he is simply failing to assign blame to such attacks. The later is somewhat less insane than the former.
He argued that noncomformists are themselves unethical because of their very nature, and thus deserve negative treatment.

He would argue though that if say if it was a small minority that found an action aggravating and felt justified in retaliating that I would have an argument. But given that the majority of society and society in general would feel the exact same way that that really destroys my argument.

If an action produces harm and it is in response to someone else's actions, then that harm is the fault of the someone else no matter how much harm it is, as long the response is commonly accepted as okay.
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Post by Lord MJ »

PeZook wrote:
Let's just say that if he was working for a company and told his project leader to fuck off because it required effort to understand him, he'd be out on the street by the end of the day. It's not a widely accepted social norm to act like an asshole. As somebody else said, he confuses "understandable" with "justified". People will be irritated by a stuttering project leader, but it doesn't make it okay to take off on him.
He would argue that if the project was a business partnership he would be justified in abandoning the partner if he aggravated him. If he was working at a company he could quit the job if he found conditions to be intolerable. He has the right to do that. And any harm done to the project leader or the project is solely the blame of the project leader due to being so irritating.
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Post by Coyote »

I recommend a different friend.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
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Post by Darth Wong »

MJ, you have embroiled yourself in the worst kind of argument: the kind where you must convince a stubborn, irrational opponent that you are right and he is wrong. Ideally, one argues either with intelligent people or with an audience present, with the objective of impressing the audience rather than the opponent.
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