Gungans VS Borg

[General Brock]

Why don't you show me the quote which actually tells us which particular corner has been cut even if we assume the Databank is correct.

The Databank mentions corners, lists only one, a droid brain lacking full autonomy. Pardon me for speculating on what else they cut.

Electromags joints conceded, then, to a higher level of nit-picking.

It was fun for a time to speculate that like a car, changing even one part might up costs, or even necessitate a cascade of other part changes to accommodate the change, as it does for a primitive car. How silly of me to assume SW is affected by such things and ramble into off-topic, since discussion doesn't meander, and is really another word for formal debate.

I would rather think showing Alderaan having a shield on the fucking silver screen constitutes a mention in the canon. ANH shows Alderaan having a planetary shield.

Well, so much for that then.

Not that your definition of reasonable is anywhere within hailing distance of the one the real world uses but yeah, you finally have gotten the general idea. Especially as a lot of your 'reasonable assumptions' are directly contradicted by the movies.

Its perfectly OK for imaginative fiction and nowhere near as unreasonable as you portray it.

Of course I am. Unlike you however I'm not assuming those assumptions are right.

I never said they were right, only reasonable possibilities.

... You are blithely ignoring the highest canon there is and even the sources you quote don't support your position.

Probably because you are reading your information up while I am reading it down. If the highest SW-ST canon is movie and TV, all I have is a bunch of droids shooting up a bunch of Gungans, in an inefficient way that makes a lot of Borgs look competitive against Gungans even without a ranged advantage.

That your argument falls to pieces without all those not only baseless but clearly contradicted assumtions doesn't make those assumptions any more true Im afraid.

That's like telling me there shouldn't be a dust pan in a broom closet, 'Cleaning Supplies' labelling the door, because it isn't called a 'dust pan closet' or 'dust pan and broom closet', and calling "Told you!" when I can't find one there.

Then saying I'm totally out to lunch for wondering who forgot to put the dust pan back where one should be, because I don't know if there was one there to begin with and shouldn't make such unfounded assumptions.

All of which are naturally done by front line soldiers all the time and not by specialized equipment designed for that purpose-oh wait.

That army must have quite the trade union, and amazing logistics, and ever-prescient commanders at every level to have everything they need when they need it and not need any redundancy.

[General Brock]

Ghetto edit: "as it does for a primitive car" should be read "as it sometimes does for a primitive car".

[General Brock]

Again with your conclusion before the dilemma bull. You work from the ASSUMPTION that B1s are crap even though movie evidence says otherwise.

I needed the Databank to tell me about TF 'mindless is good' battle droid construction philosophy and corner cutting. The movie evidence just suggested they weren't all that good, for reasons unknown, despite looking pretty snazzy.

What movie were you watching? The droids did shoot out the generators once inside the shield.

Took those droidekas long enough. The B-1s should have wasted them the moment they penetrated the barrier.

[General Brock]

An alien with what might be specialized muscles, and even lighter organic composition allowing it to jump high;

Jar Jar wasn't particularly athletic and he could still casually swim to depths few human athletes can without oxygen, which dosen't suggest a light body frame. I'd say Gungans are pretty goddamn strong.

Yes, conceded.

[Batman]

Why don't you show me the quote which actually tells us which particular corner has been cut even if we assume the Databank is correct.

The Databank mentions corners, lists only one, a droid brain lacking full autonomy. Pardon me for speculating on what else they cut.

You're welcome to speculate. You are NOT welcome to assume your speculation is actually correct.

Electromags joints conceded, then, to a higher level of nit-picking.

This is SDN. Learn to live with it.

It was fun for a time to speculate that like a car, changing even one part might up costs, or even necessitate a cascade of other part changes to accommodate the change, as it does for a primitive car. How silly of me to assume SW is affected by such things and ramble into off-topic, since discussion doesn't meander, and is really another word for formal debate.

And all of that speculation would have been perfectly acceptable if you hadn't assumed that it were actually correct.

Not that your definition of reasonable is anywhere within hailing distance of the one the real world uses but yeah, you finally have gotten the general idea. Especially as a lot of your 'reasonable assumptions' are directly contradicted by the movies.

Its perfectly OK for imaginative fiction and nowhere near as unreasonable as you portray it.

How is 'directly contradicted by canon events' NOT unreasonable as hell?

Of course I am. Unlike you however I'm not assuming those assumptions are right.

I never said they were right, only reasonable possibilities.

...which you based your outcome of the Borg-vs-Gungans scenario on. Like HELL you didn't assume them to be right. And I like how you pretend those were actually reasonable.

... You are blithely ignoring the highest canon there is and even the sources you quote don't support your position.

Probably because you are reading your information up while I am reading it down. If the highest SW-ST canon is movie and TV, all I have is a bunch of droids shooting up a bunch of Gungans,

and ANH having a planetary shield

in an inefficient way that makes a lot of Borgs look competitive against Gungans even without a ranged advantage.

if one is willing to ignore that the Gungans and the TF have firepower and
range orders of magnitude in excess of the Borg, that the Gungans can outrun the Borg on foot, that the Gungans outrange the Borg even in melee combat, that the Gungans can decimate the Borg at range with artillery, can do so with infantry ranged weapons, that the Borg may be utterly incapable of ever GETTING to the Gungans on account of the shield being in the way,

That your argument falls to pieces without all those not only baseless but clearly contradicted assumtions doesn't make those assumptions any more true Im afraid.

Snippy for patheticness

That army must have quite the trade union, and amazing logistics, and ever-prescient commanders at every level to have everything they need when they need it and not need any redundancy.

And your point is? By your reasoning, artillery should be designed to be able to dig entrenchments. After all there may be a situation where you need to and all you've got is artillery.

[The Original Nex]

despite the visuals showing it was up,

And Tarkin saying so!

IIRC it was Vader actually, but the point remains.

[Stark]

I think he means the Borg will beam up any random Gungans they detect wandering about the surface and assimilate them. That's not unreasonable, the Borg did assimilate Captain Picard partly for his knowledge of Federation fleet tactics and defences, and faced with a hard-to-reach primary population I could see them scooping up some easy targets (they did this with minor colonies of the AQ powers before sending a cube to invade, and the intelligence from the assimilated humans probably convinced them that one cube could do the job - it would've worked if the Enterprise hadn't technobabbled them to death). The question is whether they'd actually learn anything useful about Gungan tech from scooping up Gungans caught on the surface. I doubt they'd get many before the Gungans realised something was up and retreated behind shields, and it seems unlikely that any of those would be the technicians and scientists who'd have technical details. That's assuming Borg transporters actually work on Naboo, which isn't assured given how often transporters are blocked by the most trivial things.

I wonder where the Gungans would be, without the humans on the planet? They clearly live in the water or under it, I'm not sure they have surface colonies (the EU could probably fill that gap). I remember when they grabbed Picard they actually sent dudes over there to do it (and beamed through Fed shields) instead of just plucking him with a transporter. Given the Gungan strength and jumping, the borg may have problems assimilating them - depends if they're the 'super strong' early borg or the 'get raped by anyone with a dagger' later borg.

There are plenty of bits of super-advanced tech kicking about the Trek universe that the Borg haven't assimilated. The evidence suggests that their usual procedure is to incorporate people who understand the tech into their collective. When faced with something like the Guardian of Forever or an Iconian gateway they'd be just as stumped as the Federation, probably moreso given that reverse engineering requires imagination to invent theories of how the thing might work, and creativity isn't exactly a Borg strong point.

Assimilating a few Gungans is *not* going to give them a decent understanding of SW technology. Ironically, Brock is claiming they don't understand their own tech, so it'd be *totally* useless. The borg were out-initiatived by VOY and out-processed by the holodoc, so anything that relies on them taking a thoughtful, analytical approach and devising new and interesting processes to defeat Gungan strengths is a bit dubious. It's theorised that they don't develop capability themselves, they simply assimilate those that have it - their tech would allow all kinds of nifty shit, but they're so staggeringly inflexible they never think of it.

[harbringer]

Nit picking would be saying we dont know whether borg nanoprobes work on all species (8472 proves they dont .....) and thus the gungans might be totally immune to nanites. You really want to get into nitpicking you can here.

What people have come up with is the obvious problems to the borg taking over a gungan naboo, while staying in the lines and not including star fighters and so on... Personally I think the gungans could make starfighters (they make extremely tough submersibles after all) but just dont care too, that would probably change if the "humans" wernt present on naboo.

The grand army is a combined arms force - yes in this case more like a napoleonic army limited range weapons, cavalry etc. but it still has force multipliers and the borg dont. also there is no way borg personal sheilds will stop a solid ball that goes goop on impact thus the borg only have their sub-standard armour (that wont resist .45 cal slugs).

Tactically the borg drone wall will suit the tactics of the grand army and there is no way to predict what would happen once the drones try to pass through the shield personally I think a BBQ. Even if there is no sheild interaction the drones will make a "target rich enviroment" and the rate of sliging etc. will devestate the ranks as they close. once close to physical combat they will not be able to compete as the Gungans have a reach advantage and a spear will kill a drone if a bat leth will. Note I have ignored the shield that also would give a gungan a huge advantage.

Even a firespray can kill a borg cube so can a snub fighter so even if only small numbers of small craft were present the borg a screwed in space.

So tell me brock what is it you have trouble understanding?

Finally the borg cant beat a inferior opponant (and the federation is in every way) so how in the blue blazers can they possibly compete with the gungans let alone the trade federation? both of whom have significant ADVANTAGES. You can blame technobable but the borg lose because they cannot prevent the federation using technobable to beat them. A fleet of 10,000 cubes like you seem to suggest would be suddenly and magically available would curb stomp the federation... what the borg have a problem with a easy win ? they want the federation to have a sporting chance? if so do they bet on the feds?? see how silly this gets - thats why people use hard numbers here

[Starglider]

Nit picking would be saying we dont know whether borg nanoprobes work on all species (8472 proves they dont .....) and thus the gungans might be totally immune to nanites. You really want to get into nitpicking you can here.

Borg nanoprobes work on every other (organic, humanoid) species we've ever seen; 8472 has totally bizarre biology and comes from another dimension with different physics. Saying something like this is equivalent to 'there's no evidence that Wars shields will stop phasers, they might go straight through!'. The Borg have enough glaring failings that you don't have to try and strip away their remaining core capabilities (though IMHO the nanites were a silly addition anyway - surgical assimilation was more plausible and quite adequate for everything but 'look like a zombie plague' purposes).

Personally I think the gungans could make starfighters (they make extremely tough submersibles after all) but just dont care too, that would probably change if the "humans" wernt present on naboo.

Why would the absence of humans cause them to make starfighters? Do you have any conception of how different the technology for a submarine and an aerospace craft are? They don't seem to rely on the humans for defence at the start of TPM.

The grand army is a combined arms force

It has no air cover or armour; they have infantry and artillery (that we saw) and that's it. Their theatre shields probably render them immune to Borg orbital bombardment and light SW air cover, so this isn't as big a handicap as it looks, but they'd still lose hard to any serious SW military force. That doesn't imply the Borg have any real chance, other than large-scale orbital bombardment if the Gungans do in fact lack military spacecraft (or allies with such).

and there is no way to predict what would happen once the drones try to pass through the shield personally I think a BBQ.

There is no reason to think that when it didn't affect the droids or gungans. You're making the same mistake as many on this board; there are plenty of good reasons why the Borg would lose, tacking on additional stupid reasons just weakens your case.

A fleet of 10,000 cubes like you seem to suggest would be suddenly and magically available would curb stomp the federation...

Two cubes approaching on distinct vectors would probably defeat Earth for the simple reason that the Enterprise can only be in one place at once. The Federation are lucky that the Borg are utterly clueless.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'd love to see a scene where, in the plains, three hundred Gungans with their shields and stuff take on one thousand plus Borg drones. The Borg go: "LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND POWER DOWN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEMS!"

And Jar-Jar goes: "COME AND GET THEM!"

And the Borg start shambling towards the Gungan formation, slowly, ever so slowly since they're as slow as fuck. And as they shamble, the Gungangs start shooting out those blue balls of theirs, squishing and blowing up hundreds of Borg drones before they're even halfway to the Gungans. Finally, as the sun starts to set, the Borg finally walk through the theater shield and get within melee range of the Gungans.

Borg: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

And then, with Jar Jar at the front, the Gungans then grab their personal shields and form a phalanx, sticking their spears out. The Borg 'charge' (shamble feebly forwards), and stretch out their arms with those dumb tubules with the nanites. But then the tubules just bounce off the personal shields and the Gungans, safe behind their phalanx, fighting as a single impenetrable unit, with their shields protecting them from thigh to neck, just keep on spearing the Borg drones down with their electrosticks.

Just like by the hot gates of Naboo, where the Borg numbers count for nothing.

Once more, the Borg then declare, feebly: "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!"

Then Jar Jar raises his shield, spears a Borg and lets out a mighty battle-cry, which rallies the other Gungans, who bellow out their own cries. "Futile?! This...Is...NABOOOOOO!!!!!"

Brave General Jar Jar then turns to face his men. "No Gungan dies this day! A-looo!!!"

"A-LOOO!!!!"

[Cao Cao]

Borg nanoprobes work on every other (organic, humanoid) species we've ever seen; 8472 has totally bizarre biology and comes from another dimension with different physics. Saying something like this is equivalent to 'there's no evidence that Wars shields will stop phasers, they might go straight through!'. The Borg have enough glaring failings that you don't have to try and strip away their remaining core capabilities (though IMHO the nanites were a silly addition anyway - surgical assimilation was more plausible and quite adequate for everything but 'look like a zombie plague' purposes).

Still, the holodoc was able to examine 8472 biology and found that they have cells and DNA just like anything in our universe. Only that their DNA is "better". That same holodoc was also able to use the Borg's technology to kill 8272 cells, proving that they're not that different.

[Batman]

Personally I think the gungans could make starfighters (they make extremely tough submersibles after all) but just dont care too, that would probably change if the "humans" wernt present on naboo.

Why would the absence of humans cause them to make starfighters?

One might argue (and if you're thinking that this is baseless speculation, that's because it is) that the Gungans relied on the humans for spaceborne protection and with them removed from the scenario would need to cover that themselves.

Do you have any conception of how different the technology for a submarine and an aerospace craft are?

Apparently not. (Especially as that submersible left something to be desired. Call me silly but I prefer a vehicle where power loss does NOT mean part of the hull ceases to exist). Nevertheless, as per the OP they are at least insystem spacegoing and given that they seem to be by and large on the same tech level as the rest of Wars they should absolutely be CAPABLE of building fighters.

The grand army is a combined arms force

It has no air cover or armour; they have infantry and artillery (that we saw) and that's it.

That technically IS combined arms, especially as they also had cavalry though you are of course essentially correct.

and there is no way to predict what would happen once the drones try to pass through the shield personally I think a BBQ.

There is no reason to think that when it didn't affect the droids or gungans.

To my knowledge we never see a Gungan pass through the shield. And there ARE reasons to think that given there are plenty of examples of shield interaction being harmful to some extent in the EU. You can by no means conclusively assume the Borg CAN'T get through the shield unharmed, but NEITHER can you assume they CAN just because the Droids managed it.
Unless there's information about the Gungan shields I'm not aware of the question to wether or not the Borg can pass the shield is 'we haven't the foggiest'.

You're making the same mistake as many on this board; there are plenty of good reasons why the Borg would lose, tacking on additional stupid reasons just weakens your case.

That particular reason isn't all that stupid, actually. And note he DIDN'T say the shield would definitely fry the Borg. He said that's what he would EXPECT it to do, personally, and there's evidence in the EU to back that up.

[fusion]

and there is no way to predict what would happen once the drones try to pass through the shield personally I think a BBQ.

There is no reason to think that when it didn't affect the droids or gungans.

To my knowledge we never see a Gungan pass through the shield. And there ARE reasons to think that given there are plenty of examples of shield interaction being harmful to some extent in the EU. You can by no means conclusively assume the Borg CAN'T get through the shield unharmed, but NEITHER can you assume they CAN just because the Droids managed it.
Unless there's information about the Gungan shields I'm not aware of the question to wether or not the Borg can pass the shield is 'we haven't the foggiest'.

The reason why they didn't pass the shield is that there is more troopers on the other side of the shield and the tanks. Also they had no reason to pass the shields and therefore they didn't.

[General Brock]

...The Borg go: "LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND POWER DOWN YOUR WEAPON SYSTEMS!"

And Jar-Jar goes: "COME AND GET THEM!"

And the Borg start shambling towards the Gungan formation, slowly, ever so slowly since they're as slow as fuck. And as they shamble, the Gungangs start shooting out those blue balls of theirs, squishing and blowing up hundreds of Borg drones before they're even halfway to the Gungans. Finally, as the sun starts to set, the Borg finally walk through the theater shield and get within melee range of the Gungans.

Borg: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

And then, with Jar Jar at the front, the Gungans then grab their personal shields and form a phalanx, sticking their spears out. The Borg 'charge' (shamble feebly forwards), and stretch out their arms with those dumb tubules with the nanites. But then the tubules just bounce off the personal shields and the Gungans, safe behind their phalanx, fighting as a single impenetrable unit, with their shields protecting them from thigh to neck, just keep on spearing the Borg drones down with their electrosticks.

Just like by the hot gates of Naboo, where the Borg numbers count for nothing.

Once more, the Borg then declare, feebly: "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!"

Then Jar Jar raises his shield, spears a Borg and lets out a mighty battle-cry, which rallies the other Gungans, who bellow out their own cries. "Futile?! This...Is...NABOOOOOO!!!!!"

Brave General Jar Jar then turns to face his men. "No Gungan dies this day! A-looo!!!"

"A-LOOO!!!!"

Much more fun to read, gives Jar Jar a level of personal dignity exceeding the movie, and I can't wait for the machima movie.

[General Brock]

First of all, that does not constitute a victory.
Second of all.. when have the Borg ever been this subtle? That's right, never. Their standard MO is to charge in, use their standard repetitive greeting/threat and then attack starships and/or scoop up cities on planets before trying to take it over. Any of these actions would put the Gungans on full alert.

You want to find something an ST power can beat in SW? Go right ahead. But stop doing it by manufacturing weaknesses that only exist in your head. Your reaspnong is that Gungans LOOK goofy and silly, and must therefore be weak. They stood up to B1s, but B1s also LOOK goofy and silly and must therefore be weak. Do you honestly not see the problem people have with this?

... Never gave the Borg a victory; they ultimately leave. At no time do I have Borg conquering the system.

The Borg infiltrated the Enterprise, which was in battle with them in First Contact, and when they lost they quietly snuck into engineering. In the lunar colony scenario, unless the Gungans keep their sheilds raised indefinitely after defeating a Borg incursion, they could also be subject to a similar infiltration. They may not even find out about transporting; if they have sheilds raised from the beginning. But of course, its taboo, taboooo to even consider a SW defeat.

I never even had Borg scooping up cities on planets; not knowing the full abilities of Gungan city shields and city depth, or Borg capabilities with submerged cities, I left them probing the swamps and other undefended surfaces in the planetside scenario, circumventing.... oh, but I can't have them doing that either.

[General Brock]

You're a retard. The Gungans live under the ocean, in shield-dome cities. The borg won't be able to assimilate SW tech. When have they ever 'avoided escalating activies' instead of just sending wave after wave?

What, so now Borg do swarm.. And even though assimilating tech is what Borg do they won't be able to do it because ... they're in SW?

You're a retard. You've gone from 'lol no gungan spaceships lol' to 'gungans are stupid enough to LAND ON A BORG CUBE because i desperately need them to be assimilated'. Why the hell would they do this?

So, if the Borg just sit there in that scenario, Gungans have a lunar colony and therefore some space capability, they aren't going to take a look to see what's up with the derelict? I suppose they could just shoot it anyway, for no particular reason, but they don't seem like destructive backwoods rednecks or manic paranoids. Of course, I could be just assuming to much.

That's why you're not convincing anyone, I guess - because you're such a good debator! Sure, the gungans are a terrible example of SW militarism. Guess what? The borg are cripplingly retarded and massively out-teched. I hear you think they could assimilate SW tech? I'd love to see you defend that claim. Point out where people are denying that the Gungans are a primitive SW society with an unremarkable military? Perhaps the borg drones are just so useless and the Gungan doctrine so dominant there's little chance of them losing. Oh wait, we're all biased because we think shields and firepower = win over lurching zombies. Nobody ever beat the borg with melee weapons! I love how you think you're the rational, 'definate' one.

Helldarn; I can't convince a SW fundie... who would've thought. Not even with the superior debating skills and reason I never claimed to have in the first place, or even a claim to be 'fighting' to win.

Are you a martyr? Are you fighting the good fight? Are you the lone voice of reason?

No, you're a retard. Gungans have ranged weapons and the luxury of a secure base and the ability to disengage at will. Their training, however bad by Clone Wars standards, is almost certainly enough to defeat borg drones one-on-one. Oh damn, I guess the borg just famously suck.

What's with the personal attacks fundie? Gungan and Borg aren't real people and there isn't money on the table.

Gungan range weapons have a low rate of fire and a low ammunition capacity. They have to remove Borg at a rate exceeding Borg rate of replacement and overall numbers to the point of they can also overcome in melee. A secure base isn't secure if not properly defended; I doubt the Gungans can based on their performance; they know less about combat than I do about 'debate' as it appears to be defined here. If Gungans can defeat Borg drones in one-on-one, that's no guarantee against ten-and-more-to-one; that was the whole point of having the Borg swarming with numbers, or failing that, using stealth.

If you are saying the Gungans have it in them to win, then I can accept that. Though I seriously doubt it and won't 'concede'. That's the difference between 'dicsussion' as most people comprehend it, and 'debate'; even when things turn acrimonious, there aren't 'winners' and 'losers', just ideas, information and opinions expressed.

[General Brock]

So tell me brock what is it you have trouble understanding?

Finally the borg cant beat a inferior opponant (and the federation is in every way) so how in the blue blazers can they possibly compete with the gungans let alone the trade federation? both of whom have significant ADVANTAGES. You can blame technobable but the borg lose because they cannot prevent the federation using technobable to beat them. A fleet of 10,000 cubes like you seem to suggest would be suddenly and magically available would curb stomp the federation... what the borg have a problem with a easy win ? they want the federation to have a sporting chance? if so do they bet on the feds?? see how silly this gets - thats why people use hard numbers here

I ask myself the same thing...

This is supposed to be silly! If it were supposed to be a serious debate using 'hard' numbers, I'd lurk while the serious debaters, militarists, and number crunchers do their thing. If it was to be a serious debate with SW fundies, I'd bleep over it, because it wouldn't be happening; its just bait to flame the unwary.

If I wanted to do a Borg versus the Federation I would send in a few thousand cubes, because that would be easier than coming up with the technobabble. It would have made for better TV than the Dominion Wars.

[Stark]

Stop multiposting, idiot.

You're a retard. The Gungans live under the ocean, in shield-dome cities. The borg won't be able to assimilate SW tech. When have they ever 'avoided escalating activies' instead of just sending wave after wave?

What, so now Borg do swarm.. And even though assimilating tech is what Borg do they won't be able to do it because ... they're in SW?

'Wave after wave' /= 'swarming'. Rhetorical - are you an idiot? Additionally, your RETARDED, BASELESS claim that the Borg can assimilate SW tech 'because that's what they do' - support it right now. I fucking dare you.

So, if the Borg just sit there in that scenario, Gungans have a lunar colony and therefore some space capability, they aren't going to take a look to see what's up with the derelict? I suppose they could just shoot it anyway, for no particular reason, but they don't seem like destructive backwoods rednecks or manic paranoids. Of course, I could be just assuming to much.

Oh wait you changed your tune again, what a surprise. So they DO have indigenous space capability now eh?

Those bases would for sure not have shield domes, and indeed wouldn't probably be based on the same layout as their undersea bases, right? And the borg NEVER EVER show up and say 'we will rule you', right? RIGHT????

Helldarn; I can't convince a SW fundie... who would've thought. Not even with the superior debating skills and reason I never claimed to have in the first place, or even a claim to be 'fighting' to win.

Oh here it comes. Get this - you don't appear to have convinced ANYONE in this thread, and there's half a dozen. It's not just me, sparky. Further, your poisoning the well as a preparation for running away is so sweet. Aww, little diddums wasn't fighting to win aww that's so cute!

What's with the personal attacks fundie? Gungan and Borg aren't real people and there isn't money on the table.

Read the rules, read the banner, go fuck yourself.

Done? Then we'll continue.

Gungan range weapons have a low rate of fire and a low ammunition capacity. They have to remove Borg at a rate exceeding Borg rate of replacement and overall numbers to the point of they can also overcome in melee. A secure base isn't secure if not properly defended; I doubt the Gungans can based on their performance; they know less about combat than I do about 'debate' as it appears to be defined here. If Gungans can defeat Borg drones in one-on-one, that's no guarantee against ten-and-more-to-one; that was the whole point of having the Borg swarming with numbers, or failing that, using stealth.

Dude, we never, ever see giant Borg armies. I don't believe I've ever seen more than a few dozen in the same place outside of a cube. You keep doing this - claiming the borg will beam down constant waves of drones at maximum pace against the Gungans, when they have never done this before. If someone attacks a borg, why don't hundreds more get beamed in to the area? Why do you keep deciding the borg will do all this new stuff and never support it? Why do you imagine the borg can lurch toward the Gungans fast enough to take them on 10-to-1? Show me when these massive borg field armies have used stealth.

If you are saying the Gungans have it in them to win, then I can accept that. Though I seriously doubt it and won't 'concede'. That's the difference between 'dicsussion' as most people comprehend it, and 'debate'; even when things turn acrimonious, there aren't 'winners' and 'losers', just ideas, information and opinions expressed.

Oh cry me a fucking river. If you think the borg will win, either SHOW ME or SHUT THE FUCK UP. Don't cry and whinge about 'discussion' and how you 'weren't fighting to win'. \

Grow the fuck up, and stop fucking multiposting.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's pretty telling that the Borg suck balls when fucking Gungans could conceivably slaughter them, ala 300, with fucking Jar Jar acting like fucking Leonidas.

'course, we'd have Jar Jar and his Gungans get slaughtered in the end, with Borg tubules sticking in every one of his orifices. But a week later, there'll be ten thousand Gungan warriors, commanding thirty thousand free Nabooians, at the craggy fields of Naboo, where the last remnants of the Borg face...OBLITERATION! The Borg outnumber them a paltry three-to-one, good odds for any Gungan! Today, we rescue Naboo from a race of shambling incompetent space zombies armed with micro-penis syringes! For Naboo! For brave Jar-Jar!!! A-LOO!!!!

[Cao Cao]

The Borg infiltrated the Enterprise, which was in battle with them in First Contact, and when they lost they quietly snuck into engineering. In the lunar colony scenario, unless the Gungans keep their sheilds raised indefinitely after defeating a Borg incursion, they could also be subject to a similar infiltration.

The Borg quietly infiltrated the E-E for all of 5 minutes before taking over engineering which blatantly announced their presence to all on board and eventually led to their defeat.

They may not even find out about transporting; if they have sheilds raised from the beginning. But of course, its taboo, taboooo to even consider a SW defeat.

Yes, SDNet does indeed hold Star Wars as the holy grail above anything, it must always win.
That's why all those posts from various people here about how the Culture or the Daleks could ass rape the Empire without a second thought must be figments of my imagination.

I never even had Borg scooping up cities on planets; not knowing the full abilities of Gungan city shields and city depth, or Borg capabilities with submerged cities, I left them probing the swamps and other undefended surfaces in the planetside scenario, circumventing.... oh, but I can't have them doing that either.

What you want them to do is irrelevant, what they have always been seen to do is.

[Stark]

It's frankly absurd that he thinks were all biased and dishonest because we can't bear to see anything SW beaten by anything ST. Regardless of his own made up shit or lack of evidence, the Gungans DO have shields, ARE under the ocean and ARE really strong. The borg are really, really stupid. Their MO is well established. It's not OUR fault they're so fucking stupid, and their advantages in with their cubes are basically void in this scenario.

Frankly, this is massively dishonest on his part. Remember, he can't POSSIBLY win because we are so dishonest we REFUSE to believe a bunch of shambling zombies can be beaten by the Gungans. It's not that he doesn't have a leg to stand on - we're all part of a huge conspiracy, the existence of which he cannot show.

[dworkin]

Jar Jar Leonidas

Bad Shroom Man! I need a need a new keyboard. That was good.

[Batman]

The reason why they didn't pass the shield is that there is more troopers on the other side of the shield and the tanks. Also they had no reason to pass the shields and therefore they didn't.

No kidding. The fact remains that they DID NOT DO IT, thus we can't assume organics (or partial organics like the Space Zombies) can pass the shield unharmed.

I ask myself the same thing...
This is supposed to be silly! If it were supposed to be a serious debate using 'hard' numbers, I'd lurk while the serious debaters, militarists, and number crunchers do their thing. If it was to be a serious debate with SW fundies, I'd bleep over it, because it wouldn't be happening; its just bait to flame the unwary.

Which is why you not once tried to make a case for your POV. Or tried to downscale the Gungans/TF by several orders of magnitude And always pointed out that you were just being silly. And of course the OP says 'this is a silly scenario so feel free to invent capabilities and drawbacks out of thin air to make it funnier'. Oh wait, none of the above is true. And I must have missed the announcement that empowered you to decide wether a debate is serious or not. Especially when this board has something of a history insisting on hard numbers.
In fact WITHOUT hard numbers what's the point of debating given that it's either 'inconclusive due to lack of evidence' or 'irrelevant as anybody can make up whatever numbers he likes'?

If I wanted to do a Borg versus the Federation I would send in a few thousand cubes, because that would be easier than coming up with the technobabble. It would have made for better TV than the Dominion Wars.

A pity the Borg never, ever do that. Oh wait, that wasn't supposed to be a serious scenario again, right?

[Batman]

Oh what the fuck, this thread is going nowhere fast and I'm bored.
So even though Stark et al already dealt with this...

You're a retard. The Gungans live under the ocean, in shield-dome cities. The borg won't be able to assimilate SW tech. When have they ever 'avoided escalating activies' instead of just sending wave after wave?

What, so now Borg do swarm..

See Stark's reply. Sending in really tiny wave after really tiny wave after really tiny wave does not swarming constitute.

And even though assimilating tech is what Borg do they won't be able to do it because ... they're in SW?

No, they won't be able to do it because the tech they'd be trying to assimilate is tens of millenia ahead of anything they ever assimilated in Trek. The most advanced tech we ever saw them assimilate was a 29th century Fed holo emitter, and that one was advanced enough to provide One with abilities no other drone before or since ever exhibited!

You're a retard. You've gone from 'lol no gungan spaceships lol' to 'gungans are stupid enough to LAND ON A BORG CUBE because i desperately need them to be assimilated'. Why the hell would they do this?

So, if the Borg just sit there in that scenario, Gungans have a lunar colony and therefore some space capability, they aren't going to take a look to see what's up with the derelict?

Yes they are. Which requires them to LAND ON and actually VENTURE INTO the Cube because-why again?

I suppose they could just shoot it anyway, for no particular reason,

'You will be assimilated. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile' might not be sufficient reason to blow the cube out of space but it is sure as hell going to make the Gungans a tad suspicious of the Space Zombies.

but they don't seem like destructive backwoods rednecks or manic paranoids. Of course, I could be just assuming to much.

You are. You are assuming the only way the Gungans can find out anything about the cube is to land a ship on them when they can just scan it with moon-and shipbound sensors. Something, I might add, Starfleet should be capable of if they could be arsed to write down and distribute all those nifty things Geordi, Wesley and their ilk did to improve sensor performance.
Not that I see why a gungan shuttle landing on the cube neccessarily means the Borg get to try to assimilate Gungan technology anyway, mind you.

That's why you're not convincing anyone, I guess - because you're such a good debator! Sure, the gungans are a terrible example of SW militarism. Guess what? The borg are cripplingly retarded and massively out-teched. I hear you think they could assimilate SW tech? I'd love to see you defend that claim. Point out where people are denying that the Gungans are a primitive SW society with an unremarkable military? Perhaps the borg drones are just so useless and the Gungan doctrine so dominant there's little chance of them losing. Oh wait, we're all biased because we think shields and firepower = win over lurching zombies. Nobody ever beat the borg with melee weapons! I love how you think you're the rational, 'definate' one.

Helldarn; I can't convince a SW fundie... who would've thought.

You can't convince anybody thanks to not having a case. And whatever happened to 'this isn't a serious debate anyway'? If you don't take this debate seriously why care wether or not you can convince people? After all, you're just goofing off, right?

Not even with the superior debating skills and reason I never claimed to have in the first place, or even a claim to be 'fighting' to win.

Blah blah blah. You have clearly been trying to show your take on the scenario is the right one. If you want to backpaddle any faster, I suggest an outboard.

Are you a martyr? Are you fighting the good fight? Are you the lone voice of reason?
No, you're a retard. Gungans have ranged weapons and the luxury of a secure base and the ability to disengage at will. Their training, however bad by Clone Wars standards, is almost certainly enough to defeat borg drones one-on-one. Oh damn, I guess the borg just famously suck.

What's with the personal attacks fundie? Gungan and Borg aren't real people and there isn't money on the table.

And we all know this was the first time people got insulted over the Vs debate in here. For shame, Stark!
Oh wait, it ISN'T. Not by a shot a couple thousand lightyears long. If you're a retard about the vs debate here, you get CALLED a retard, retard. Last I checked it's entirely possible for you to leave if the board policies are not to your liking.

Gungan range weapons have a low rate of fire and a low ammunition capacity.

Borg ranged weapons don't exist.

They have to remove Borg at a rate exceeding Borg rate of replacement

Which is nothing to write home about,

and overall numbers to the point of they can also overcome in melee.

Blithely assuming there will be a melee. Not that the Borg are all that famous for attacking with overwhelming numbers to begin with.

A secure base isn't secure if not properly defended; I doubt the Gungans can based on their performance; they know less about combat than I do about 'debate' as it appears to be defined here.

As the Borg apparently know NOTHING about combat that's one hell of an assumption. It's not inconceivable the Borg would lose to the roman legions.
Assuming the Borg are in a position to try infiltrating the base in the first place, of course.

If Gungans can defeat Borg drones in one-on-one, that's no guarantee against ten-and-more-to-one;

Because we know flooding the target area with drones is the Borg default approach. Oh wait.

that was the whole point of having the Borg swarming with numbers,

which would still fail in a field battle,

or failing that, using stealth.

Which they have done approximately one quarter of a time, in FC.

If you are saying the Gungans have it in them to win, then I can accept that. Though I seriously doubt it and won't 'concede'. That's the difference between 'dicsussion' as most people comprehend it, and 'debate'; even when things turn acrimonious, there aren't 'winners' and 'losers', just ideas, information and opinions expressed.

No, that's the difference between a fundie fucktard who won't give up his position no matter what and an honest debator.
And your 'opinion' is based on willful ignorance of available evidence, arbitrary assumption of Borg capabilities that are evidenced nowhere in the canon, and invention of weaknesses for the SW side that are backed up by nothing whatsoever.

[Batman]

Of fuck. Didn't even notice that before.

In the lunar colony scenario, unless the Gungans keep their sheilds raised indefinitely after defeating a Borg incursion, they could also be subject to a similar infiltration.

No they wouldn't on account of the lunar colony's shields NOT being down thanks to time travel shenanigans. The reason the Borg could beam aboard the E-E was that thanks to technobabble, their shields were down. Not so for the Gungan colony. Especially as assuming they defeat the Borg incursion, there ARE no more Borg to infiltrate them.

They may not even find out about transporting; if they have sheilds raised from the beginning.

The term 'non-sequitur' raises its ugly mind.

But of course, its taboo, taboooo to even consider a SW defeat.

Yeah. Right. The problem is we absolutely wank about anything Wars and has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the Borg would be massacred by any real world army post and likely including the roman legions.

I never even had Borg scooping up cities on planets; not knowing the full abilities of Gungan city shields and city depth, or Borg capabilities with submerged cities, I left them probing the swamps and other undefended surfaces in the planetside scenario, circumventing.... oh, but I can't have them doing that either.

No you can't, what with them never ever doing it anywhere in Star Trek.