Apparently, this site is full of "pseudo-skeptics"

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Apparently, this site is full of "pseudo-skeptics"

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

I'm in eastern Alberta for a family reunion, and a cousin of mine has just revealed that he's gotten into Graham Hancock. You can imagine my delight. For those of you who don't know, Hancock is a fringe kook who advances a mishmash of theosophy, mainly between Judaism and Chinese mysticism, and the notion that prehistoric civilizations a la Atlantis have existed and that the proof is being overlooked by the pedantic and academically myopic scientific community. When I start to take him to task on these things, all I get from him is a smug chuckle and a shake of the head with distainful patience. Apparently, you see, Hancock has been getting tired of taking flak from everyone with brains enough to have a working understanding of Occam's Razor, so he's linked his faithful to a draft of a book undertaken by Greg Taylor about a culture of "pseudoskepticism", which I can only assume he means to extend to the kind of critical thinking that goes for normal around here.

It's not particularly compelling; how could it be? But what it does do is it sets forth it's case with enough self-assured bluster to give the woo-woo choir the new creed they need to fight the wave of anti-mysticism that's been gaining momentum on the internet.

The Debunker: A Pseudo-Skeptic By Any Other Name
The beginnings of a book manuscript, "Debunking for Dummies."

Looking for a new hobby? Why not try 'debunking', which seems to be growing in popularity and requires little except a narrow viewpoint and a handful of faulty arguments. Let's be clear from the outset though - we mustn't confuse debunking with 'skepticism'. The latter requires broad knowledge, critical thinking, and the ability to doubt your own viewpoint as much as any other. Obviously a much tougher proposition, as the lack of true proponents shows, so I would advise against trying this unless you are a serious masochist, or at the very least a true seeker of knowledge.

The first step in becoming a debunker is to immediately relinquish that title and establish your credentials by calling yourself either a skeptic or a scientist. Never mind that you are actually trying to impose your personal viewpoint on others, rather than following the scientific process and applying critical thinking to all sides of the argument. Actually, the best debunkers are those that don't even know their true identity, having such poor critical thinking skills that they truly believe that that they are exhibiting all the open-mindedness and mental sharpness of the true skeptic or scientist. As such, some might reprimand me for writing this short article, seeing it as a hazard to the serious debunker's faith in themselves - little chance of this however, as the real top-notch debunkers have a force-field of ignorance that is nigh impenetrable.

Okay, next you'll need a few handy tools. The best method, being a pseudo-skeptic, will be to take some of the skeptic's best tools and misuse them. First up, that venerable favourite, Occam's Razor, which implies that the simplest explanation is often the best. The trick for the debunker is to take Occam's Razor and use it not as a handy rule of thumb to aid critical thinking, but instead to impose it as a literal and immutable law of the universe which immediately destroys your opponent's arguments. Don't worry that complicated things happen all the time, thus disproving the 'Law of Occam'. That would make thingscomplicated.

Just in case you're caught without your bag of tricks, and cornered by a rabid pack of irrational pseudo-scientists, I recommend busting out a move I like to call 'The Extraordinary Sagan'. Espouse with great enthusiasm that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'. Ignore the fact that a true scientist would say that all claims require the same proportion of evidence. Someone might even point out this statement isn't meant to be taken literally, but should be seen in terms of the acquired evidence of human experience (e.g. if you know from past experience throughout your life that a ball falls down when you drop it, and then someone says their ball fell 'up' yesterday, you would require evidence of a proportion to prove this singular event over the accumulated evidence of your life experience). The best thing is, you can apply this to all sorts of things inappropriately, like the discovery of a secret chamber, lost city, or lost knowledge, where the application of acquired knowledge is virtually without merit.

There are plenty of other tools and techniques to be had, and mastered, with a minimum of effort. Found a fraud, or a badly performed experiment? Immediately use "guilt by association" to apply this judgement to all researchers and theories in this particular line of inquiry. Did somebody earn some money, or at least get a small grant for their research? Obviously, you can tar them with the brush of the con-man, or at the very least label them opportunists, who are not at all interested in scientific integrity (because we all know that scientists and skeptics don't make any money). The following chapters outline the best methods1

Okay, so I'm being facetious. Satire can sometimes provide the harshest realisations, and with my use of it here I expose my particular prejudice and desire - namely to remove the debunker's smug air of respectability and intellectual superiority, and expose them for what they really are: a pseudo-skeptic. I'm playing on the title of 'pseudo-scientist', of course, a term which every pseudo-skeptic is quick to label their adversary with when their arguments are starting to fail. The problem in this case, is that the pseudo-skeptic has as much understanding of 'science' as they do of 'skepticism' - very little at all.

The derivation of the word science comes from the Latin scientia, meaning 'knowledge'. Science has always been, at its core, the search for knowledge. Early Indian science is seen as including such things as yoga, which was a systematic approach to gaining knowledge about the mind, and the relationship between consciousness and the cosmos. Early Greek science was influenced by Pythagorean thought; that there is a correspondence between the workings of the human mind and nature, through numbers and music. Indeed, most sciences began as a mode of inquiry into man's place within the cosmos. Human consciousness was obviously of high importance - from yoga and Pythagorean thought, through to the Kabbalah and magic, throughout the ages man has developed systems of mapping and exploring consciousness and has held the knowledge gained through these practices in the highest regard. If science truly is a search for knowledge, one might ask who has more right to be called a scientist - a Kabbalist or a taxonomist?

The modern conception of science, which the debunker holds so dear, is based upon a particular branch of science which has become dominant over the past four centuries. To grossly simplify historical developments, the physics of Newton and the philosophy of Descartes combined with other factors during the 'Enlightenment', to give central importance of one strand of science - modern science, as we know it. This science is basically physicalism - "the belief that reality is reducible to certain kinds of physical entities"2 (and if you want illustration of this, ask a group of physicists and chemists whether psychology is a science). With this newly dominant science came 'the scientific method'. Many people are surprised to learn that the scientific method is not a gift from god which determines whether something is 'scientific' - it is actually one method of gaining results, amongst a number of possible others (put forward throughout history, from the Gnostics through to Karl Popper). The fact cannot be overstated - the modern scientific method which the pseudo-skeptic virtually deifies, is simply one particular method of revealing information about one particular type of knowledge.

A first criticism of this deified science, which pseudo-skeptics fail to grasp, is that although modern science is a mode of knowledge which is particularly conducive to maintaining bodily survival, it is not as helpful with the actual 'living' part. Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul. An example is in the 'scientific' explanations for NDE's (Near Death Experiences) - as much as someone who has experienced an NDE may be told various possible physical reasons for the onset of an NDE, very rarely do they hold much weight. The awareness that occurs during such events is not something that can be described by a physical process, hence the ineffability of the event. To quote the aviator Charles Lindbergh, in relation to an OBE (Out of Body Experience) he had during his 1927 transatlantic flight: "My visions are easily explained away through reason, but the longer I live, the more limited I believe rationality to be"3.

Another problem with the modern scientific viewpoint is that too often it is considered complete. A cursory glance at the history of science shows, however, that this assumption has been wrongly held throughout the ages. Thomas Kuhn's theory of paradigm changes has gained quite a high level of acceptance, yet the pseudo-skeptic's ignorance of examples throughout history has led to some very flawed thinking. For example, in a recent article in the New York Times, Lawrence M. Krauss argued:

"How often have I heard the cry from the audience, 'Yeah, but 300 years ago people would have said it would be impossible to fly!'the problem with that assertion is that 300 years ago people did not know enough about the laws of physics to make the assertion, so the claim would have been improper."4

One wonders whether it crossed Mr Krauss' mind that in 300 years time, someone much like himself might be writing about him in the same terms?

Two of the most famous examples of paradigm changes are Copernicus' heliocentric model and Einstein's Theory of Relativity. However, there are other smaller examples: for instance, the distinguished medical journal Lancet once described hypnotic subjects as trained criminals who were paid for their stage acting5. Other anomalies that were once 'fiction' include ball lightning and meteorites. Of course, it has to be noted that for every 'vindicated anomaly', there are thousands of misconceptions, wishful thoughts, and outright frauds. This never invalidates investigation of anomalous data though, as most pseudo-skeptics would have us believe. Niels Bohr summed it up perfectly, when he said "the task of science is both to extend the range of our experience and to reduce it to order"6. Science requires both speculation and methodical examination to evolve, and to deny either is madness.

At this point, perhaps a quick caution to the pseudo-scientist is necessary: you are on a downward spiral into nazism and other nastiness. Or apparently so, according to the debunking fraternity. The BBC's Horizon feature titled "Atlantis Uncovered" warned against this 'fact'7, portraying fringe thinking as a descent into irrational thought, and ultimately (of course!) National Socialism. Similarly Michael Shermer, in "Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of our Time", states "today's paranormal beliefs probably seem relatively harmless. They are not. The reason is that if someone is willing to accept such claims on nonexistent evidence, what else are they willing to believe?"8. This sort of thinking is nonsensical, as similar outcomes can be assigned to nearly any type of human endeavour. As physicist Henry Stapp argues, physicalist science on its own is dangerous, because it leaves "no rational basis for anything but self-interestthe collapse of moral philosophy is inevitable"9.

But maybe the pseudo-skeptics are just referring to all those everyday crazy people out there, with nothing better to do but believe in pseudo-science and polish their jack-boots. Surely they think more of actual scientists who investigate anomalies with an open mind? Not so, apparently, if we look at the evidence in James ('The Amazing') Randi's attack on Dr Gary Schwartz of the University of Arizona, who upset the gods of debunking by being foolish enough to initiate a scientific study of 'psychic' John Edwards (which is odd, seeing as one of the core values of those gods' magazine of choice, Skeptical Inquirer, is "freedom of thought and inquiry"10). In this 'debate', Randi twists words to name Schwartz as a believer in the tooth fairy, and resorts to about every trick written in the pseudo-skeptic's handbook. The reader may want to view a complete transcript of the dialogue at the "Debunking the Debunkers" website11, which shows clearly where any irrationality lies. Interestingly, Randi only published his 'devastating critique' on his website12, and not the responses, explaining that Dr Schwartz had "issued frenzied responses to my comments, which I am tempted to publish here, but that would make a very long document indeed". So what drives the pseudo-skeptic to such extraordinary lengths? Why do they attack their 'enemy' with such ferocity, and accusations of nazism and other name-calling?

A primary motivation of the debunker would seem to be, quite simply, jealousy. I've grown weary of the number of times I've been told how unfair it is that Graham Hancock has experienced such success. But don't mistake this jealousy as simply being in terms of personal gain. James Alcock writes in Skeptical Inquirer:

"rather than honouring science, the public is generally disdainful of both science and scientist, while welcoming to their bosom the purveyors of magic, shamanism, and supernaturalism" 13

One pertinent point to note from this statement is how pseudo-skeptics always talk in terms of how the general public needs to be told what is best for them (by the pseudo-skeptic of course). And yet they wonder why the public is disdainful. The other point is that the jealousy of the debunker has at its root their deep-seated desire to have their particular worldview validated.

So what is the underlying reason for the debunkers position? Why do they feel the need to "portray science not as an open-minded process of discovery, but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery" 14? The obvious conclusion is that behind this behaviour lies a large amount of insecurity. In particular, anxiety that a carefully constructed world-view, which helps them to make sense of the world and also often bestows upon them a position of power, may be dismantled at any moment. Any attempts by 'pseudo-scientists' to investigate outside this world-view are regarded as a threat, an attempt to pull the comfortable rug out from beneath the debunker's feet. As much as the true skeptic harbours doubts about their stance, the debunker attempts to convince themselves and others, through any means possible, that they are right. How can the debunker, therefore, ever be considered anything more than a pseudo-skeptic.

That's not to say, however, that criticism of alternative theories is incorrect or somehow morally wrong in any way. Ideas and theories should always be questioned, but in a respectful manner, and with the humility to realise that any position may prove to be completely incorrect. We should always question what we believe, and also why we do so. In the end though, it is each person's inalienable right to construct a view of the world which fits the evidence of their experience best, and helps them to understand the world. The debunker does not believe in this philosophy however, and feels the need to impose their personal viewpoint upon others. It is high time that all parties showed more respect for philosophies different to theirs, and made an attempt to understand them. If the pseudo-skeptic does not take my word for it, perhaps they'll listen to James Alcock, who wrote in Skeptical Inquirer (with the emphasis added being mine) "we may differ in our assumptions about the underlying nature of reality, but we are much the same as each other" 15.
Get a good, long look at it. I figure it's only a matter of time before we see the whackaloon crowd crowing this upcoming book to every mention of Occam, Popper or Dawkins, no matter how accurate.
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Post by Patrick Degan »

The modern conception of science, which the debunker holds so dear, is based upon a particular branch of science which has become dominant over the past four centuries. To grossly simplify historical developments, the physics of Newton and the philosophy of Descartes combined with other factors during the 'Enlightenment', to give central importance of one strand of science - modern science, as we know it. This science is basically physicalism - "the belief that reality is reducible to certain kinds of physical entities"2 (and if you want illustration of this, ask a group of physicists and chemists whether psychology is a science). With this newly dominant science came 'the scientific method'. Many people are surprised to learn that the scientific method is not a gift from god which determines whether something is 'scientific' - it is actually one method of gaining results, amongst a number of possible others (put forward throughout history, from the Gnostics through to Karl Popper). The fact cannot be overstated - the modern scientific method which the pseudo-skeptic virtually deifies, is simply one particular method of revealing information about one particular type of knowledge.
Gee... Maybe it's due to the fact that this viewpoint has yielded results which have produced more for humankind in three centuries than mysticism and religion ever managed during the previous 6000 years.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Graham Hancock would be the idol of one Kilik who was banned from here a while ago.

"Pseudo skepticism", good grief.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Just in case you're caught without your bag of tricks, and cornered by a rabid pack of irrational pseudo-scientists, I recommend busting out a move I like to call 'The Extraordinary Sagan'. ...The best thing is, you can apply this to all sorts of things inappropriately, like the discovery of a secret chamber, lost city, or lost knowledge, where the application of acquired knowledge is virtually without merit.
This is entirely wrong. If someone says, "I went to the mall yesterday," few people would require significant evidence of this relatively mundane claim. If some asshole claims to have discovered an undersea Atlantean pathway, it's completely reasonable to demand more evidence, because it's an extraordinary assertion.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Post by Frank Hipper »

A first criticism of this deified science, which pseudo-skeptics fail to grasp, is that although modern science is a mode of knowledge which is particularly conducive to maintaining bodily survival, it is not as helpful with the actual 'living' part. Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul.
Give me a fucking break! :x

That the "human experience" actually is a series of "interactions of chemicals" is a source of endless wonder!
There's nothing *trivial* about it!
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Frank Hipper wrote:
A first criticism of this deified science, which pseudo-skeptics fail to grasp, is that although modern science is a mode of knowledge which is particularly conducive to maintaining bodily survival, it is not as helpful with the actual 'living' part. Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul.
Give me a fucking break! :x

That the "human experience" actually is a series of "interactions of chemicals" is a source of endless wonder!
There's nothing *trivial* about it!
Well, he apparently doesn't like it.

To which I say, "too fucking bad". :)

Reality is what it is, we can't dictate it, we can merely discover it.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Acheiving what we see as a 'soul' with nothing more than electrochemical reactions seems pretty fucking amazing with me. Acheiving rational thought with it is a fucking victory lap.

The 'physical' is trivialized by these people, who then reflexively claim it trivializes everything else.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

Looking for a new hobby? Why not try 'debunking', which seems to be growing in popularity and requires little except a narrow viewpoint and a handful of faulty arguments. Let's be clear from the outset though - we mustn't confuse debunking with 'skepticism'. The latter requires broad knowledge, critical thinking, and the ability to doubt your own viewpoint as much as any other. Obviously a much tougher proposition, as the lack of true proponents shows, so I would advise against trying this unless you are a serious masochist, or at the very least a true seeker of knowledge.
Hello Mr. Scotsman. I wonder if he has any other extra criteria he'd like to add.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

wolveraptor wrote:If some asshole claims to have discovered an undersea Atlantean pathway, it's completely reasonable to demand more evidence, because it's an extraordinary assertion.
Clearly this moron has no understanding of probability, specifically how low prior probabilities require require much strong discrimination to get a high posterior probability.
Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul.
Physics is not required to make you feel good about yourself, nor support self-important and nonsensical delusions about souls and spirits.
SirNitram wrote:Acheiving what we see as a 'soul' with nothing more than electrochemical reactions seems pretty fucking amazing with me. Acheiving rational thought with it is a fucking victory lap. The 'physical' is trivialized by these people, who then reflexively claim it trivializes everything else.
Agree. Pathetically simple and nonsensical notions of 'souls' and 'selves' are far more insulting to the literal miracle of consciousness arising from 100 trillion electrochemical synapses specified by 3 billion base pairs resulting from quintillions of instances of natural selection over more than a billion years of evolution. People resort to 'souls' in an effort to run and hide from the terrifyingly beautiful complexity of the real world.
User avatar
Justforfun000
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2503
Joined: 2002-08-19 01:44pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by Justforfun000 »

People resort to 'souls' in an effort to run and hide from the terrifyingly beautiful complexity of the real world.
Essentially, but it's not so much the complexity they fear, it's the potential idea that their life, their very existence, is meaningless. It's the thought that nihilism is the only sensible outlook on life if you believe there is no soul and we don't live on. I can't blame them. That idea scares the hell out of me. But my fear of it doesn't mean it can't be true.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Justforfun000 wrote:
People resort to 'souls' in an effort to run and hide from the terrifyingly beautiful complexity of the real world.
Essentially, but it's not so much the complexity they fear, it's the potential idea that their life, their very existence, is meaningless. It's the thought that nihilism is the only sensible outlook on life if you believe there is no soul and we don't live on. I can't blame them. That idea scares the hell out of me. But my fear of it doesn't mean it can't be true.
I don't get why the soul is sold as a comforter in the first place. If I understand the concept correctly as "serious theology" puts it, God owns the soul lock, stock and barrel, and when you die and fly up to heaven, you don't frolick about in a cloudy resort; the soul gets absorbed up into God like a tiny bubble of cooking oil being consumed by the biggest bubble in the pot, and your identity is wiped out in the process. Seems indistinguishable from an atheist's death to me.
User avatar
Academia Nut
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2598
Joined: 2005-08-23 10:44pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Post by Academia Nut »

Justforfun000 wrote:Essentially, but it's not so much the complexity they fear, it's the potential idea that their life, their very existence, is meaningless
No, it's the the fact that most people cannot get over the fact that if no one tells them they have a meaning, then that means that they have to find their own meaning to life. The world is a big scary place, but so long as they have some all-seeing, all-knowing figure looking out for them, telling them what to do, then all those terrifying decisions, and the responsibility for them, drop away. On the other hand, if you have to chart your own course, then you have to deal with things like, "Am I doing the right thing?" on a much more fundamental level than what the simplistic, childish reward/punishment set-up for religion makes you consider. With the promise of some eternal reward after death, then all people have to worry about is doing well in their own life. If on the other hand you have to think about where you actually fit into the scheme of things with billions of people, countless stars in the sky, and uncountable trillions of years of future, things get a bit more hairy.

Or as I like to think of it, the religious see infinity and cower in fear, trying to look a little patch of dirt to get the images out of their mind, while the atheist gives infinity the finger and says, "I'm going to live on in spite of you, unafraid"
I love learning. Teach me. I will listen.
You know, if Christian dogma included a ten-foot tall Jesus walking around in battle armor and smashing retarded cultists with a gaint mace, I might just convert - Noble Ire on Jesus smashing Scientologists
User avatar
Justforfun000
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2503
Joined: 2002-08-19 01:44pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by Justforfun000 »

I don't get why the soul is sold as a comforter in the first place. If I understand the concept correctly as "serious theology" puts it, God owns the soul lock, stock and barrel, and when you die and fly up to heaven, you don't frolick about in a cloudy resort; the soul gets absorbed up into God like a tiny bubble of cooking oil being consumed by the biggest bubble in the pot, and your identity is wiped out in the process. Seems indistinguishable from an atheist's death to me.
There's all different beliefs in regards to it. Many New Age, Theosophist, and even some eastern religions involve reincarnation and/or eventual attainment to an at-oneness, yet separate at the same time. Plus numerous other variations.
Still, they all hold at least one major advantage over the atheist's. You are essentially immortal. Death is never truly "the end".
No, it's the the fact that most people cannot get over the fact that if no one tells them they have a meaning, then that means that they have to find their own meaning to life.
Well this would still be just a facet of the same fear. Ultimately, it's still a fear of not being important enough to exist forever.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Justforfun000 wrote:Essentially, but it's not so much the complexity they fear, it's the potential idea that their life, their very existence, is meaningless.
Don't get me started on the 'meaning as an ineffable substance' fallacy. It's another of those intuitive human cognitive abstractions that is taken waaaay too far. It's idiotic to even expect 'meaning' to be inherent in the universe. The question itself is, ironically, meaningless.
TithonusSyndrome wrote:I don't get why the soul is sold as a comforter in the first place. If I understand the concept correctly as "serious theology" puts it, God owns the soul lock, stock and barrel, and when you die and fly up to heaven, you don't frolick about in a cloudy resort; the soul gets absorbed up into God like a tiny bubble of cooking oil being consumed by the biggest bubble in the pot, and your identity is wiped out in the process. Seems indistinguishable from an atheist's death to me.
While I am far from an expert on Abrahamic theology, AFAIK the only people who hold this belief are the producers of 'The End of Evangelion'. The vast majority of monotheists seem to go for the 'cloudy resort' interpretation, best illustrated IMHO by the penultimate scene of Monty Python's 'The Meaning of Life'. :)
Academia Nut wrote:while the atheist gives infinity the finger and says, "I'm going to live on in spite of you, unafraid"
Or in the case of transhumanists, 'what a wonderful playground! let's find a way to go there!'.
Justforfun000 wrote:Still, they all hold at least one major advantage over the atheist's. You are essentially immortal. Death is never truly "the end".
A perceived advantage and even then only if this immortal life as actually worth living (subsisting on 'god's love' for eternity sounds pretty unbearable to me).
User avatar
Justforfun000
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2503
Joined: 2002-08-19 01:44pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by Justforfun000 »

Don't get me started on the 'meaning as an ineffable substance' fallacy. It's another of those intuitive human cognitive abstractions that is taken waaaay too far. It's idiotic to even expect 'meaning' to be inherent in the universe. The question itself is, ironically, meaningless.
That may be, but this doesn't change one whit people's emotional wishes. Many people, if not most I would dare to bet, want desperately to believe that there is meaning to the universe and their life. I'm not saying there is, I'm just saying what people want. If this wasn't the case, religion would never be so prevelant.
A perceived advantage and even then only if this immortal life as actually worth living (subsisting on 'god's love' for eternity sounds pretty unbearable to me).
Well quite frankly, perceived or not, in my opinion it is unquestionably an advantage. Existing as opposed to non-existing would seem to be a given even by reducing them to simple terms of positive vs. negative, or (impulse vs no impulse). One is something. The other is nothing. How can "nothing" ever be preferable to something?

Of course you could argue quality of life and what have you, but in the basic essence of the question, the thought of truly NOT existing anymore, that your entire life and consciousness is worthless and you will simply pass on with no true legacy or continuance is a horrible thought. I'm not arguing it isn't true, I have no bloody idea. I would wish it not to be, but so what? Who gives a fuck what I wish? Certainly not the universe.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
User avatar
Admiral Valdemar
Outside Context Problem
Posts: 31572
Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
Location: UK

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Has no one else had to personally debate someone who has a burning hatred of all things materialistic? I've had to deal with a couple on other boards who seem to be adamant in their denial of empiricism and want everyone to accept meta-physics as the core along with all the added supernatural baggage from souls to ghosts to God.

You can't debate these people. They're on the same level as Xtian fundies with regards to their hatred of the scientific principle. Nearly as bad as solipsists.
User avatar
Justforfun000
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2503
Joined: 2002-08-19 01:44pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by Justforfun000 »

Has no one else had to personally debate someone who has a burning hatred of all things materialistic? I've had to deal with a couple on other boards who seem to be adamant in their denial of empiricism and want everyone to accept meta-physics as the core along with all the added supernatural baggage from souls to ghosts to God.

You can't debate these people. They're on the same level as Xtian fundies with regards to their hatred of the scientific principle. Nearly as bad as solipsists.
These people hate empiricism. It's a threat to their belief system. So is the scientific method being applied to their tenets. See, they do one particular thing that is the opposite of science. They arrive at a conclusion first and then look for evidence to defend it. While this doesn't necessarily mean they will turn out to be WRONG, it is certainly backwards from normal science inquiry.
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Has no one else had to personally debate someone who has a burning hatred of all things materialistic? I've had to deal with a couple on other boards who seem to be adamant in their denial of empiricism and want everyone to accept meta-physics as the core along with all the added supernatural baggage from souls to ghosts to God.

You can't debate these people. They're on the same level as Xtian fundies with regards to their hatred of the scientific principle. Nearly as bad as solipsists.
For all intents and purposes, they are solipsists. Why do you think I take every and any opportunity to mention how much I despise the drug culture, which often accounts for most of these assholes?
User avatar
CaptJodan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2217
Joined: 2003-05-27 09:57pm
Location: Orlando, Florida

Post by CaptJodan »

Frank Hipper wrote:
A first criticism of this deified science, which pseudo-skeptics fail to grasp, is that although modern science is a mode of knowledge which is particularly conducive to maintaining bodily survival, it is not as helpful with the actual 'living' part. Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul.
Give me a fucking break! :x

That the "human experience" actually is a series of "interactions of chemicals" is a source of endless wonder!
There's nothing *trivial* about it!
I feel that the soul went out the window for me when I was put under a specific anesthetic. Really, when you consider how you can change people's entire personality or outlook with drugs these days, or when something as relatively mundane as Alzheimers hits a family member, it's clear that a "soul" is not metaphysical.
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Post by Gil Hamilton »

SirNitram wrote:Acheiving what we see as a 'soul' with nothing more than electrochemical reactions seems pretty fucking amazing with me. Acheiving rational thought with it is a fucking victory lap.

The 'physical' is trivialized by these people, who then reflexively claim it trivializes everything else.
Richard Feynman had a quote regarding that idea:
Richard Feynman wrote:Poets are always complaining that scientists take away from the beauty of the stars. Mere globs of gas atoms! Nothing is mere. I too can see the stars on a desert night and feel them. Stuck on this tiny carousel my little eye can catch million year old light. But what of the pattern, the meaning, the why? For far more awesome is the truth than any artists of the past could imagine. Where are the poets of the present to speak of it? Who are the poets who can speak of Jupiter as if he was a man - and when it is a huge spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must remain silent?
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Cao Cao
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2011
Joined: 2004-07-20 12:36pm
Location: In my own little world

Post by Cao Cao »

Frank Hipper wrote:
A first criticism of this deified science, which pseudo-skeptics fail to grasp, is that although modern science is a mode of knowledge which is particularly conducive to maintaining bodily survival, it is not as helpful with the actual 'living' part. Physicalism trivialises the human experience, reducing it to the interactions of chemicals and 'pure physics', leaving no room for a spirit or soul.
Give me a fucking break! :x

That the "human experience" actually is a series of "interactions of chemicals" is a source of endless wonder!
There's nothing *trivial* about it!
It's such an annoying and stupid conceit that anything grounded in reality and measurable with scientific methods is "mundane" and therefore trivial. Mainly because they refuse to understand how our minds actually work.
Image
"I do not understand why everything in this script must inevitably explode."~Teal'c
User avatar
CaptJodan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2217
Joined: 2003-05-27 09:57pm
Location: Orlando, Florida

Post by CaptJodan »

Cao Cao wrote: It's such an annoying and stupid conceit that anything grounded in reality and measurable with scientific methods is "mundane" and therefore trivial. Mainly because they refuse to understand how our minds actually work.
It's just as Justforfun basically said...the soul is supposed to be like the Force. It's supposed to be something unexplainable. If you can explain away someone's personality to "mere electrochemical reactions", then humans are no longer special. They're not chosen.

Of course the real objection isn't that it actually threatens the human condition. It's that it threatens his interpretation of what the human condition should be. Human life should be grander than simple electrochemical reactions. And to him, it has to be. If mere mortals can understand this stuff, then to him that is trivial and simplistic.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

The article relies entirely on strawman distortions. Just as the lover of logic fallacies seeks to portray any defender of logic as a soulless automaton with no joy in his life, the lover of pseudoscientific bullshit seeks to portray skepticism as its own form of dogma. Look at how he says that people who insist upon the use of Occam's Razor are distorting it into an "immutable law of nature". Have you ever heard any skeptic in your life actually say that? Of course not. It's exactly like the logic fallacy users who accuse their opponents of treating logic as a religion.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Post by Starglider »

Justforfun000 wrote:That may be, but this doesn't change one whit people's emotional wishes.
Sadly, no, that takes advanced cognitive engineering technology. Bring on the orbital mind control lasers under the benevolent control of the Evil Bayesian Conspiracy!
Existing as opposed to non-existing would seem to be a given even by reducing them to simple terms of positive vs. negative, or (impulse vs no impulse). One is something. The other is nothing. How can "nothing" ever be preferable to something?
Ultimately this is a subjective valuation. I assign negative utility to some forms of existance, and if there is no scope for eventual improvement that means suicide is a desirable choice (for me) when compared to an eternity of torment. Actually I'd assign non-existence a utility of zero; it's not actually inherently a problem, because there is no way it can be directly bad for 'you', because 'you' aren't defined past your own death. A lot of people seem to think of non-existence as a nothingness that they still perceive somehow, but it isn't, it's a limit that you'll never consciously pass. The fear of death and desire to avoid it at all costs comes from a hardcoded evolved survival instinct, the single strongest instinct over even reproduction. Intellectually, the problem with death is all the things that will not exist (i.e. that you will never experience) because of it, plus the loss to any loved ones. In (rare) cases where there is no scope for any desireable experiences to occur, I do not have a problem with death for that reason. But as I say, value judgements of this type are inherently subjective (which is fine as long as you don't try to impose your personal desires on others).
Who gives a fuck what I wish? Certainly not the universe.
Sadly, no. On behalf of the Transhumanist chapter of the Evil Bayesian Conspiracy, and for what it's worth, let me assure you that we're working on that.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

How to argue like a fundie fucktard:

1) If your opponent invokes Occam's Razor, declare that Occam's Razor is not necessarily Truth. This way, you can conveniently ignore the fact that all it really does is put the burden of proof on you, and you have no proof to offer.

2) If your opponent points out logic fallacies in your argument, declare that logic is not necessarily Truth. This way, you can conveniently ignore the fact that your argument attempted to use logic (any argument which includes words like "therefore" or "because" is attempting to use logic) and you were caught cheating.

3) If your opponent challenges you to produce evidence, produce evidence that does not prove your case at all. Then hit him with #2, and if necessary, #1.

4) If your opponent continues to press the attack, challenge him to explain everything in the universe. If he cannot, then you win because you can just say that God explains everything. If he points out that "God" doesn't really explain anything, hit him with #2.

5) Attempt to shift the debate from logical, philosophical, or scientific terms to political ones by invoking popular opinion. If your opponent objects to this blatant red-herring, hit him with #2.

6) Invoke the Appeal to Consequence fallacy, declaring that the consequences of a godless universe are personally unacceptable to you. If your opponent points out that this is a fallacy, hit him with #2.

7) Invoke the Religious Ad-Hominem fallacy by accusing your opponent of rejecting God because he just wants to live his disgusting hippie/liberal/faggot/druggie/fornicator/commie lifestyle. Smile when your opponent realizes that he can't fire back in turn because for some reason, what you just did is not considered a personal attack in most Internet forums while any counter-attack would be. If your opponent refuses to answer in kind and instead points out that you are engaging in a logic fallacy, hit him with #2.

8) Resort to name-dropping. Quotes are very useful in this endeavour, such as the famous Einstein quote about how science without religion is lame. Use this quote proudly, and ignore the fact that this vestigial religious belief was the cause of Einstein's greatest science blunder (his rejection of quantum mechanics).

9) Employ the Golden Mean Fallacy. Since violent extremist religious fundamentalists are on one side and the atheists are on the other side, the atheists must be just as unreasonable as the far-right religious fundamentalists. Ergo, conclude that your position is somewhere in the middle and therefore more reasonable. If reminded that this is a logic fallacy, hit him with #2.

10) And finally, if all else fails, take offense at the fact that your opponent is attacking your religious beliefs. Accuse him of being a bigot for not treating your beliefs with the same respect that one would accord a human being. In effect, elevate your beliefs to the same status that a living, breathing person would have, so that an attack on them is like an assault on a person and "intolerance" of those beliefs is the same as intolerance of human beings.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply