I.M.P.S. That Fan made movie about star wars

[Lazarus]

Nothing except the personal biases of various Imperial officials (or in Daala's case gross incompetence) prevents a woman from serving in the military. There is no official or legal basis for that kind of discrimination and sexism is not institutionalized within the Galactic Empire.

Actually, no, that's not true. The Empire maintained an anti-female and anti-alien policy (there's an acronym for it, possibly made by COMPNOR) detailed in the Jedi Academy series. This was, however, abolished by the Imperial Remnant once Daala took command, and was ignored in some circles before that.

[TC Pilot]

http://domuspublica.net/peculiar_institutions.html

[Lord Relvenous]

Why is this a nitpick? The Empire tries to patrol an entire galaxy. It's not inconcievable there would be some female recruits if they were desperate in some sectors.

Oh I agree that there are some female stormtroopers, they canonically exist, but they are very rare, on account of the only mention there is is Daala AFAIK. Of course, given the armour, I suppose you could reason that any number of the troopers in the films are female, but there's no proof of that. However, I think it's fair to say they're pretty damn rare, but this single squad of only 6 troopers has TWO. Also, I thought Stormtrooper training facilities were pretty centralised, like Carida, so technically units on the rim shouldn't be any different calibre-wise than ones in the core (save for elite units, naturally).

Aren't there mentions in the EU of local recruitment and training? it seems counterintuitive that Carida would train every trooper. That's a lot of troops to be trained by one planet, even a dedicated planet like Carida.

[Batman]

Screw counterintuitive. Try impossible.
Not that Lazarus said anything of that kind, of course. He said that Stormtrooper training facilities (which already presumes there's more than one) should be LIKE Carida, not that Carida was the only one.

[TC Pilot]

What's so hard to believe about a single whole planet being dedicated to the training of the Empire's elite shock troopers?

That's, of course, disregarding the numerous Imperial Army training facilities I'm sure are scattered around the galaxy.

[Batman]

What's so hard to believe about a single whole planet being dedicated to the training of the Empire's elite shock troopers?

Nothing.

That's, of course, disregarding the numerous Imperial Army training facilities I'm sure are scattered around the galaxy.

And there you answer your own question.
There's nothing wrong with Carida being wholly dedicated to training Stormtroopers. There IS with the assumption that Carida is the ONLY place they train Stormtroopers.

[TC Pilot]

I know. What's so hard to believe about that? It's a freakin' planet!

EDIT- I don't consider the Stormtroopers a part of the Imperial Army, btw

[Shroom Man 777]

After re-watching this, I really like it. It doesn't paint the Imperials as this mob of goose-stepping baby-eating thugs. It portrays the Stormies as a bunch of decent guys just doing a job, and I wish actual-factual SW and EU did something like this.

[TC Pilot]

Yeah. DR's attempts at "greyifying" Star Wars in LotF has been terrible. The Empire has really been the only major government that did as much good (if not more) as it did bad.

And of course, the Empire's also been the most ignored since DR took over. Instead, they try and make the Sith out to be alright guys. Like that makes any sense.

[Lazarus]

http://domuspublica.net/peculiar_institutions.html

Okay, so lets disprove the notion the Empire has an institutionalised policy of misogyny by... giving some examples of serving females? I'm sure there's a rule of debate against that somewhere...

I was not suggesting that Imperial policy is to stop all females anywhere from ever joining the forces, I WAS suggesting that there is a formal policy of misogyny. I will admit, however, that I can't find the source I recall, but I believe it was an acronym formed from 'anti-alien and anti-female', or something of the like. There are, however, many quotes along the lines of 'female officers were extremely rare in Imperial service' (Jedi Search). Just look at the films for crying out loud! There isn't a SINGLE woman in the multitudes of Imperial personnel shown!

I know. What's so hard to believe about that? It's a freakin' planet!

Erm, I've lost what point you're trying to make, are you trying to defend the idea that Carida is a planet devoted entirely to stormtrooper training? No one has actually suggested that was invalid...

As Batman said, I never said that Carida was the only planet, I said that there are presumably multiple centralised training facilities for stormtroopers (although they don't all have to be on the level of Carida, some may be similar).

[TC Pilot]

Okay, so lets disprove the notion the Empire has an institutionalised policy of misogyny by... giving some examples of serving females? I'm sure there's a rule of debate against that somewhere...

I love the simply brilliant reasoning behind that one: disregard evidence of women not only in high military positions, but in many instances RUNNING the Empire because you don't like the admit you're wrong.

Not only that, but the article outright obliterates the single most valid case of discrimination within the Empire.

The Empire does not discriminate against women. No sane politician would inaugurate the start of a new government by ostracizing half the galactic population that has already enjoyed equal rights for millenia.

I was not suggesting that Imperial policy is to stop all females anywhere from ever joining the forces, I WAS suggesting that there is a formal policy of misogyny.

So, hate women and oppress them, but give them guns and positions of power and prestige? Brilliant! Your reasoning is inspirational!

I will admit, however, that I can't find the source I recall, but I believe it was an acronym formed from 'anti-alien and anti-female', or something of the like.

You're probably thinking of COMPNOR (Commission for the Preservation of the New Order), which has no doctrinal sexism inherent to it (it's a culture and nationalist movement). It's a discrimination based only on individual biases, not institutional or constitutional decree. The Empire is a meritocracy, and every citizen has the equal right to use one's ability nd rise in rank and prosper.

There are, however, many quotes along the lines of 'female officers were extremely rare in Imperial service' (Jedi Search).

Said by who? Daala? Incompetence. Rebels? Baseless propaganda.

Your argument has no basis in fact. Refute the article I posted if you wish to disprove me.

There isn't a SINGLE woman in the multitudes of Imperial personnel shown!

How many women did you see in the Yavin briefing room? 1? Me too. The Endor briefing? 2? Great, so did I. How many women did you see in the Clone Army. None? Really, as did I. That must mean the Rebel Alliance and Old Republic were sexist, misogynistic organizations because I didn't see NEARLY enough women.

The Empire isn't discriminatory toward women just because you don't see women in the Empire (even though Leia and Mon Mothma were Imperial citizens...), especially in light of the multitude of evidence proving you wrong.

Erm, I've lost what point you're trying to make

Ugh, for the last time, I've been saying I don't think there's anything wrong with JUST ONE PLANET being used as the training grounds for the Empire's stormtroopers.

There's no reason a single planet cannot provide sufficient quantities of Stormtroopers.

Mind you, a single planet WOULD NOT be sufficient to adequately supply the Imperial Army with new recruits.

But those are two entirely different branches of the military.

[Lord Relvenous]

I will admit, however, that I can't find the source I recall, but I believe it was an acronym formed from 'anti-alien and anti-female', or something of the like.

You're probably thinking of COMPNOR (Commission for the Preservation of the New Order), which has no doctrinal sexism inherent to it (it's a culture and nationalist movement). It's a discrimination based only on individual biases, not institutional or constitutional decree. The Empire is a meritocracy, and every citizen has the equal right to use one's ability nd rise in rank and prosper.

The acronym he's thinking of is NonhuMan, implying that aliens and women are lower citizens. It's introduced in the X-Wing series. And yes it is a practice of discrimination.

Erm, I've lost what point you're trying to make

Ugh, for the last time, I've been saying I don't think there's anything wrong with JUST ONE PLANET being used as the training grounds for the Empire's stormtroopers.

There's no reason a single planet cannot provide sufficient quantities of Stormtroopers.

Mind you, a single planet WOULD NOT be sufficient to adequately supply the Imperial Army with new recruits.

But those are two entirely different branches of the military.

Quote from Champions of the Force: Its untamed landmasses provided an appropriate range of training enviroments: artic wastelands, trackless rain forests, splintered mountain crags, and searing desert hardpan crawling with venomous multilegged reptiles. (emphasis mine)

That does not sound like a sufficiently developed planet to house all the stormtrooper trainees, let alone instructors, support staff, equipment, and all the economy that surrounds an academy. The idea of a centralized academy seems pretty illogical if you analyze the sheer numbers of troops and people involved in the process. Also, Carida trains in every other service, so include those numbers. Obviously a planet, even a dedicated planet is not enough.[/u]

[TC Pilot]

The acronym he's thinking of is NonhuMan, implying that aliens and women are lower citizens. It's introduced in the X-Wing series. And yes it is a practice of discrimination.

A practice only carried out on an individual basis, and not a systemic program by the whole of the Imperial government. The Empire did NOT in any way as an entity deny women their rights or the chance to succeed based on merit. You simply have no proof to substantiate that claim other than Rebel propaganda, the unreliable testimony of an incompetent, and isolated incidents that would exist in any society or government.

That does not sound like a sufficiently developed planet to house all the stormtrooper trainees, let alone instructors, support staff, equipment, and all the economy that surrounds an academy. The idea of a centralized academy seems pretty illogical if you analyze the sheer numbers of troops and people involved in the process. Also, Carida trains in every other service, so include those numbers. Obviously a planet, even a dedicated planet is not enough.

How is it so hard to believe? Carida is not only larger than Earth, but it has a tiny native population. An academy could easily house millions of cadets and the neccesary support staff and still have huge swathes of wilderness to train in. The Stormtroopers only make up a minority of the Empire's military, anyway.

I'm not discounting the possibility of other Stormtrooper training centers around the galaxy, not it's certainly not impossible, as Batman put it.

[Lord Relvenous]

I really can't see a galaxy wide force of stormtroopers having only a few million cadets. Also, despite a small native population is true, you have not addressed the issue of the supporting community around the Academy and the other armed forces trainees.

Lastly, a planet that is larger (in mass, which effects gravity) than Earth will not necessarily have a significantly larger surface area. Volume increases at a greater rate than surface area, so the gain in surface area will not be substantial if human beings are still able to live on the planet.

[bz249]

It is likely that there is some anti-alien and anti-female bias in the Empire, but in the case of a fighting force there are very practical reasons for a human-only force: standardization. So the zillions of weapons, armors and other gadgets should not be modified for wookies, mon cals... etc.
For the stormtroopers (a supposedly elite branch) there is a height limit (and possibly millions of other physical requirements which is not known), and since women tend to be shorter that can easily explain their relative rarity.

[Lord Pounder]

The fact of the matter is TC is that there are multiple documented reports of Imperial bias against women and aliens, namely the X-Wing books, the Thrawn trilogy and Jedi Academy amongst many others for instance in the movies how many non-human bridge officers did we see? In all the EU how many Imperial officers did we heard of that wheren't male or alien. There is very little or no evidence supporting the Empires Equal rights till Darksaber when Daala murdered the warlords. All i can think off is the Captain of the Corsca Rainbow being female, as was the Captain of what became the Errant Venture though she only got her comission because the Virlance's(sp?) original Captain, Dryso was promoted to Captain of the Lusanyka, these bothe came from the x-Wing books.

If I'm mistaken please your evidence.

[TC Pilot]

Lord Relvenous:

I really can't see a galaxy wide force of stormtroopers having only a few million cadets.

Even though it's a few million a year suplemented by cloning and the several billion clones that already made up the GAR? Stormtroopers aren't front-line cannon fodder and they aren't very numerous. By TTT, stormtroopers were already in very short supply.

you have not addressed the issue of the supporting community around the Academy and the other armed forces trainees.

What of it? So there's a few million more support staff to handle. The Empire can support that. Maybe local Caridians made up the support staff. And as far as I know, Carida is exclusively stormtrooper training.

Lord Pounder: Do you even bother reading my posts?

The fact of the matter is TC is that there are multiple documented reports of Imperial bias against women and aliens, namely the X-Wing books, the Thrawn trilogy and Jedi Academy

Are you reading the same books as I am? Was Isard not both Director of Imperial Intelligence and regent of the Empire? Was Thrawn not a Grand Admiral (GA Pitta was non-human too)? Could Mara not walk around HIMS Chimaera in an Imperial uniform, with her femininity clearly visible to the crew without the slightest indication it was abnormal? Were Mon Mothma and Leia Organa not elected members of the Imperial Senate? Did the Empire's Interim Ruling Council not have women and non-humans on it? Was Prince Xizor not the owner of the Empire's largest shipping company and able to flaunt his power and wealth with near impunity? Was a three-eyed man not a contender for the Imperial Throne with the backing of the Moffs (a group dominated by a non-human, no less)? Was Lord Hethrir (a non-human) not in charge of the Empire's entire justice system?

Every sentient being in the Empire (every sentient in the Empire is an Imperial citizen) has the same rights as everyone else. That is fact. That resisting and dissident species' like Mon Calamari and Wookies were reclassified is beside the point.

Cases of misogyny or xenophobia are few, abberational, gross violations of Imperial law, and carried out on an individual scale without the sanction of the Emperor. The Empire is a meritocracy. It's this meritocracy that keeps the weak and incompetent like Daala from rising in rank. You have no proof that can refute my claims. Though considering the fact you haven't bothered to read my posts or the evidence I've provided, I doubt that will stop you.

[Lord Relvenous]

Lord Relvenous:

I really can't see a galaxy wide force of stormtroopers having only a few million cadets.

Even though it's a few million a year suplemented by cloning and the several billion clones that already made up the GAR? Stormtroopers aren't front-line cannon fodder and they aren't very numerous. By TTT, stormtroopers were already in very short supply.

Clonetroopers that made up the GAR would have aged too far to compose the main trooper force by this time. If they had matured by Episode Two, which they did, they would at least be 53 by this time. (20 being my low end estimate of their physical ages, obviously low.)

And as far as I know, Carida is exclusively stormtrooper training.

Every military arm is trained at Carida. Han Solo trained there, and Daala was trained at Carida, so they have pilot and officer training. I don't think you can say it is exclusively stormtroopers

[TC Pilot]

Clonetroopers that made up the GAR would have aged too far to compose the main trooper force by this time. If they had matured by Episode Two, which they did, they would at least be 53 by this time. (20 being my low end estimate of their physical ages, obviously low.)

I never said clones from as far back as the Clone Wars would have been around as late as 5 years after Endor. But the undoubtedly did early on.

I've never particularly liked it, but Allegiance stated the Stormtrooper Corps didn't open up to non-clones for several years.

Every military arm is trained at Carida. Han Solo trained there, and Daala was trained at Carida, so they have pilot and officer training. I don't think you can say it is exclusively stormtroopers

Hmm. Good point. Although Daala was a corporal, thus more likely part of a ground force rather than any naval training branch of the "Academy" so officer training is questionable.

[Lord Relvenous]

Ok, while looking for info about stormtrooper training, I found this about Carida:

was home to the Empire's most important stormtrooper program.

While Wookieepedia does have the same problems as Wikipedia, the inclusion of "most important" implies there were others. Obviously not conclusive proof, but interesting nonetheless. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find other information on Carida on Starwars.com.

I never said clones from as far back as the Clone Wars would have been around as late as 5 years after Endor. But the undoubtedly did early on.

Sorry I thought you were implying that all the Clonetroopers from the PT were still serving.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I've never particularly liked it, but Allegiance stated the Stormtrooper Corps didn't open up to non-clones for several years.

Right, I believe that was in reaction to the Battle of Kamino or 'Kamino Uprising' in 12 BBY.

Sorry I thought you were implying that all the Clonetroopers from the PT were still serving.

Well some obviously were, the one who kept the Journal of the 501st was obviously still around by Hoth.

[Lazarus]

The acronym he's thinking of is NonhuMan, implying that aliens and women are lower citizens. It's introduced in the X-Wing series. And yes it is a practice of discrimination.

Yes, that's exactly it, thank you. Do you know which book it's from, or have the quote at all?

At any rate, TC Pilot, it IS a policy of discrimination created by the Empire. It DOES NOT mean that NO females can join the forces, it DOES mean that they will be discriminated against, and as such, females ARE rare in Imperial service. This is why I refute your 'evidence' which consists of a bunch of examples of serving females. Yes, there were female Naval officers, THIS DOES NOT COUNTER MY POINT. Yes, Isard did take control of the Empire. Why? Because she was, for all intents and purposes, Palpatines mistress, which gave her the position of Head of Imperial Intelligence. SHE DID NOT GAIN THIS RANK THROUGH 'MERIT'.

A practice only carried out on an individual basis, and not a systemic program by the whole of the Imperial government. The Empire did NOT in any way as an entity deny women their rights or the chance to succeed based on merit. You simply have no proof to substantiate that claim other than Rebel propaganda, the unreliable testimony of an incompetent, and isolated incidents that would exist in any society or government.

No, actually, YOU have to prove that there WASN'T misogyny in the Empire, because it is reasonable to assume (based on on-screen evidence, the massive bias towards male Imperial personnel, the evidence such as NonhuMan etc etc) that there is. Giving some examples of female personnel, which your evidence does, is a fine counter to someone saying there are no serving females in the Empire, or that there are no females in positions of authority. I AM NOT SAYING THIS. I am suggesting that there IS discrimination against females.

Are you reading the same books as I am? Was Isard not both Director of Imperial Intelligence and regent of the Empire? Was Thrawn not a Grand Admiral (GA Pitta was non-human too)? Could Mara not walk around HIMS Chimaera in an Imperial uniform, with her femininity clearly visible to the crew without the slightest indication it was abnormal? Were Mon Mothma and Leia Organa not elected members of the Imperial Senate? Did the Empire's Interim Ruling Council not have women and non-humans on it? Was Prince Xizor not the owner of the Empire's largest shipping company and able to flaunt his power and wealth with near impunity? Was a three-eyed man not a contender for the Imperial Throne with the backing of the Moffs (a group dominated by a non-human, no less)? Was Lord Hethrir (a non-human) not in charge of the Empire's entire justice system?

Isard DID NOT gain her position through merit, she came to power by, essentially, being Palpatines mistress. Similarly, Daala did not gain her position through merit, it was bestowed upon her by Tarkin because she was his mistress.

Mara did, in fact, raise some suspicion by her presence: 'I'm the deck officer' the officer said, scowling at her as the group came to a halt in front of her... 'It's on the other side of the wall' the officer growled...' Clearly, a female IS unusual, as she has drawn a hostile and suspicious reaction from the male officer.

Mon Mothma and Leia Organa were members of the Imperial Senate. Your point? I think you'll find that the Senate is not, in fact, one of the arms of the Imperial armed forces or similar body such as Intelligence. It's actually the remnants of a democratically elected system. Chandrila and Alderaan are both planets which resisted Imperial control, and as such election of female candidates is not surprising. This has very little to do with the point at hand, especially since the senate was abolished.

The Interim Ruling Council, if you're referring to the one known as the Council of Blood, Mahd Windcaller (one of the female members) was not in Imperial service, she was head of a news agency: a media baron. As such, Imperial discrimination had no effect on her, and she was put on the council by Jax, who clearly paid no heed to a doctrine which was, by this point, losing prominence, as shown by his posting of aliens to the council. This does not reflect Imperial policy, as Jax is a traitor and has no legitimate authority. As for the other female whose name escapes me, she wasn't in Imperial service either, but I can't find much on her.

Cases of misogyny or xenophobia are few, abberational, gross violations of Imperial law, and carried out on an individual scale without the sanction of the Emperor

Here's a thought, provide some evidence for this sweeping, unreasonable statement that doesn't consist of invalid examples.

You have no proof that can refute my claims.

Really? So, you know, the whole established policy of misogyny laid down in NonhuMan is irrelevant because it doesn't benefit your argument I suppose?

YOU are arguing from the wrong side of the balance of probability here, which means YOU have to provide evidence that misogyny is not an established policy within the Empire. 'Some examples' is not proof.

Hmm. Good point. Although Daala was a corporal, thus more likely part of a ground force rather than any naval training branch of the "Academy" so officer training is questionable.

Yes, but she dropped out of the NAVAL academy, which she admitted in Darksaber. Pilots, naval officers, army officers (Lieutenant Janek Sunber, from Star Wars: Empire, was trained at Carida) etc are all trained at Carida. There is no reason to assume it is the only training facility for stormtroopers at all.

[bz249]

No, actually, YOU have to prove that there WASN'T misogyny in the Empire, because it is reasonable to assume (based on on-screen evidence, the massive bias towards male Imperial personnel, the evidence such as NonhuMan etc etc) that there is. Giving some examples of female personnel, which your evidence does, is a fine counter to someone saying there are no serving females in the Empire, or that there are no females in positions of authority. I AM NOT SAYING THIS. I am suggesting that there IS discrimination against females.

Well... AFAIK there are not any woman playing in NBA clubs. Is this a sign that the League is seriously biased against females? Hardly. The Empire is mostly a meritocracy (at least for humans) and there are jobs which fits much more easily to a man and there are others in which a woman is better. Military is traditionally a male profession so it is not suprising that a female soldier is rare and unusal.

[Lazarus]

Is this a sign that the League is seriously biased against females?

I'm not into Basketball so I'm not sure, but in an equivalent analogy, in UK football you won't see women playing in football teams. Is this a sign that the FA is biased against females? Well, actually, yes, because they aren't admitted. I presume the situation is the same in the NBA.

At any rate, on screen evidence isn't all I'm referring to, as I have stated.

Military is traditionally a male profession so it is not suprising that a female soldier is rare and unusal.

Actually, that just backs up my argument...
I originally said that the two women in the Railrunners were disproportionate to women in Imperial forces generally. Be that due to a policy of misogyny (which CANONICALLY exists - NonhuMan), or because women are discouraged from serving in what is seen as a man's profession, it is still clearly the case that women in the service of the Imperial forces ARE rare.

EDIT: Might I suggest a split for this thread? It's strayed a long way from IMPS at this point

[Lord Relvenous]

Agreed, in fact it dissolved into a flurry of discussion. Splt it, I say.